Pumping Iron with Zemekone and Icehog3

[Chris.]

I haven't even attempted any dips, since I've just brought pull ups into my routine in the last month. Still not strong enough to do more than 5 pull ups of my body weight consecutively. The machines help SO much!

I don't really like the position of the decline press either, but it works. I dont like it cause i have no range of motion when doing them.

icehog: that sucks man! I can imagine the situation, and I would never want to be in it. i'd probably go off on the manager.

[BigFrank]

shhh! http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/batman.gif
Does that Mean Prof is Boy Robin? Or does Tom fill that slot? :r:r

[icehog3]

I haven't even attempted any dips, since I've just brought pull ups into my routine in the last month. Still not strong enough to do more than 5 pull ups of my body weight consecutively. The machines help SO much!

I don't really like the position of the decline press either, but it works. I dont like it cause i have no range of motion when doing them.

icehog: that sucks man! I can imagine the situation, and I would never want to be in it. i'd probably go off on the manager.

Nah, chit happens, Chris, They generally take pretty good care of the equipment. :)

Does that Mean Prof is Boy Robin? Or does Tom fill that slot? :r:r

I don't fill any of Gerry's slots, Frank! I am the Admiral! :r

[DavenportESQ]

I haven't been posting much, basically because I haven't been doing much. Seemed I re aggrevated my shoulder injury. The pain was much more managable in the past, now I have some throbing down the whole right side of my arm, and besides shoulder pain I have a lot of pain in my bicep. I truly fear the worst : (

That aside I have been doing light pulls. I benched today for the first time in 2 weeks. Kept it light worked up to 275. and even started to feel that

We have conference rolling around in two weeks. I will prob cut all gym activities. I will just increase my jumping as stimulus for my CNS. I did clear a 52 inch box the otherday, which got me a little juiced.... for people who dont like to do pulls but still want to work explosiveness I recommed jumping, and lots of it. In all directions!

Enjoy the time off ADB and your vacation...I imagine for someone who has been in the strength game for as long as you have rest/recovery is just as effective as a good workout You migrating South to avoid the cold?

[The Professor]

Does that Mean Prof is Boy Robin? Or does Tom fill that slot? :r:r
leave my filling of Gerry's slot out of this. :dance:

[The Professor]

Really sorry to hear that news, Dave. I'll keep my fingers crossed, hoping for the best.

BTW, you're "light" bench is twice as heavy as my regular 5rm bench. :r

[Mugen910]

Sorry to hear Dave...Hope it works out for you.


So I didn't do my 13 mile training run this weekend...Nor did I even get to the gym this long weekend. I have been sleeping a whole lot though. I think my body is just over worked from all the running and lifting. I'd hate to be behind on my marathon training but I'd rather be a week behind on training than get hurt and not toe the line.

[The Professor]

Sorry to hear Dave...Hope it works out for you.


So I didn't do my 13 mile training run this weekend...Nor did I even get to the gym this long weekend. I have been sleeping a whole lot though. I think my body is just over worked from all the running and lifting. I'd hate to be behind on my marathon training but I'd rather be a week behind on training than get hurt and not toe the line.
Yup. Listen to your body. :tu

Back day today turned into upper back day. :ze

T-bar, close grip: 1p x 10; 2p x 10; 3p x 10, 9, 8

Bbell bent-over row: 135 x 10, 185 x 10, 8; 205 x 5

One-arm db row: 80 x 10, 80 x 10, 90 x 10, 100 x 10R/7L

Shrugs: 225 x 10, 275 x 10, 315 x 6, 6

Grip work with 2 x 10lb plates in each hand: 3 times to failure

Thought about deadlifts at one point, got above the bar, and just wasn't feeling it. That's when I decided it was an upper back only day.

Good lifts to all!!! :ze :ze :ze

[PeteSB75]

Hearing a couple people talk about shoulder pain and have experienced it some myself. I'm just trying to learn some more about this whole thing, so am reading through Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe and Lon Kilgore. From ll the reviews I have read on bodybuilding.com forums and other places, it is one of the best resources out there. They mention the chronic shoulder pain a lot of people get from lifting in their section on the bench press. From what they say, a lot of it has to do with the angle of the arms in relation to the shoulder when doing bench/chest work. As I understand it, if the angle is too high, arms parallel to the line of the shoulders, it puts more pressure on the rotator cuff, which causes/contributes to this pain. Pulling the elbows slightly closer to the body reduces this pressure and lets the chest do the actual work. This does also move the bar slightly further down the torso. I am making some adjustments to my bar placement, as I know I have been lifting it higher, more arms parallel than slightly angled. I'm starting to adjust my bar placement, but it's definitely something I have to concentrate on, as I've gotten so used to lifting it higher.

Anyway, did some back/bi work last night. Mixed it up a little after the first exercise, doing last set at lower weight, but explosive.

close grip lat pulldown
120x12x3

t-bar row
70x12 80x12 45x12(fast)

high row (cable)
70x12x2 50x12(fast)

low row
80x12x2 45x12(fast)

db sup curl
30x12x2 20x12(fast)

[Genetic Defect]

Will Tom have internet on vacation? If not I can wait to ask my question.

[The Professor]

Will Tom have internet on vacation? If not I can wait to ask my question.
I believe he said that he would not.

[Genetic Defect]

I believe he said that he would not.

Are you saying I should read posts? :r

Thanks Dokk :tu

[The Professor]

Are you saying I should read posts? :r

Thanks Dokk :tu

Never!

[Pete]

Some days the groove seems cut with a knife, and other times, I never find it.

Funny how that happens. There are some days I can't wait to get in the gym, and at times wind up aimlessly flailing about. This past weekend, I did a fabulous job of celebrating the arrival of Friday, needed to be driven home and all that. Saturday my girlfriend and I went to the gym, me a little green around the gills. Had a tremendous 1-1/2 hour workout. Weights for an hour, (new PB on the bench) followed up by an intense 1/2 hour of cardio. Felt awesome leaving there.

In light of that, I'm not about to substitute Bushmills for White Flood just yet.

[zonedar]

BTW, you're "light" bench is twice as heavy as my regular 5rm bench. :r

Glad I'm not the only one thinking that! :D

[BigFrank]

Hearing a couple people talk about shoulder pain and have experienced it some myself. I'm just trying to learn some more about this whole thing, so am reading through Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe and Lon Kilgore. From ll the reviews I have read on bodybuilding.com forums and other places, it is one of the best resources out there. They mention the chronic shoulder pain a lot of people get from lifting in their section on the bench press. From what they say, a lot of it has to do with the angle of the arms in relation to the shoulder when doing bench/chest work. As I understand it, if the angle is too high, arms parallel to the line of the shoulders, it puts more pressure on the rotator cuff, which causes/contributes to this pain. Pulling the elbows slightly closer to the body reduces this pressure and lets the chest do the actual work. This does also move the bar slightly further down the torso. I am making some adjustments to my bar placement, as I know I have been lifting it higher, more arms parallel than slightly angled. I'm starting to adjust my bar placement, but it's definitely something I have to concentrate on, as I've gotten so used to lifting it higher.First off, you picked up a great book! Second, I believe what you mentioned aboce, low bar groove for benching has allowed me to bench heavy with ZERO issues. Also I find that the narrower your grip the better also. I often see guys benching with their index fingers outside of the smooth groove on the bar. While this may be great for use at a meet to decrease range of motion, it destroys shoulders. I personally pinky on groove on thumbs on smooth for bench.

Narrow grip, low bar groove, elbows in your gonna bench heavy for years
Wide grip, high groove and flared elbows = pain.

Watch next time you are at the gym at guys who bench most will bench the wrong way, and often you will hear them talk about their low bench because of shoulder issues, or such.

Really sorry to hear that news, Dave. I'll keep my fingers crossed, hoping for the best.

BTW, you're "light" bench is twice as heavy as my regular 5rm bench. :r
Same here Dave, hope ya feel good. Maybe that little bit of time off will serve ya some good.

Dont worry Prof! Ya got plenty of time.

[The Professor]

Dont worry Prof! Ya got plenty of time.

Time?!? Time's what I don't have ... I'm an old phart! :pn

[Genetic Defect]

Time?!? Time's what I don't have ... I'm an old phart! :pn
Nice old Phart and Peter's smilie :hm

[PeteSB75]

First off, you picked up a great book! Second, I believe what you mentioned aboce, low bar groove for benching has allowed me to bench heavy with ZERO issues. Also I find that the narrower your grip the better also. I often see guys benching with their index fingers outside of the smooth groove on the bar. While this may be great for use at a meet to decrease range of motion, it destroys shoulders. I personally pinky on groove on thumbs on smooth for bench.

Narrow grip, low bar groove, elbows in your gonna bench heavy for years
Wide grip, high groove and flared elbows = pain.

Watch next time you are at the gym at guys who bench most will bench the wrong way, and often you will hear them talk about their low bench because of shoulder issues, or such.

Nice to know about the grip placement as well. I've been putting middle finger in the smooth groove. Next time I do bar work, I'll try shifting to a closer grip and see how I do. Doing chest tonight, but was planning to do DB work. I also need to work on back arch, as I think I've not been doing that correctly either. Funny how I've been working with "trainers" at LA Fitness for more than a year now and not one of them mentioned this stuff.

[BigFrank]

Time?!? Time's what I don't have ... I'm an old phart! :pn
Sure you do, case in point Lou Simmons. Guy as Old, granted crazy, but he is old and strong.
Nice to know about the grip placement as well. I've been putting middle finger in the smooth groove. Next time I do bar work, I'll try shifting to a closer grip and see how I do. Doing chest tonight, but was planning to do DB work. I also need to work on back arch, as I think I've not been doing that correctly either. Funny how I've been working with "trainers" at LA Fitness for more than a year now and not one of them mentioned this stuff.
I would recommend to learn to keep your upper back tight and use that as a base, and get your lats involved before working on a back arch. Arch isnt going to do much but decrease your range of motion. I personally only arch hard for low rep sets 90%+. Anything else I would rather get more work out of. Plus once you learn to keep your upper back tight, and ride high on your upper back getting a good arch is cake. Also, last note, be careful when arching or setting up high on your upper back at most gyms. The benches are hard, slippery and WAY to narrow.

[PeteSB75]

I would recommend to learn to keep your upper back tight and use that as a base, and get your lats involved before working on a back arch. Arch isnt going to do much but decrease your range of motion. I personally only arch hard for low rep sets 90%+. Anything else I would rather get more work out of. Plus once you learn to keep your upper back tight, and ride high on your upper back getting a good arch is cake. Also, last note, be careful when arching or setting up high on your upper back at most gyms. The benches are hard, slippery and WAY to narrow.

I noticed that last night. I tried pulling my lats together, that put a slight arch in my back, but I had a very tough time with stability on the narrow bench. Even with keeping tension on my legs and pushing up into my body, I was moving around. All in, it was still a good workout, but I could wish for a better bench.

DB Chest Press
55x12 65x12 70x10 75x5
DB Incline (u)
40x15 3 sets
Pushups
15 - 5 sets
Cable Fly
22.5x15x2 27.5x15x2 - kg, not lbs.
Overhead DB extension
40x12x3
Suicide Tri - superset of skull crusher, close grip press and bench dip
50x10x3

Barely squeezed out the last set of cable fly and went to failure on the last two sets of bench dips. Felt like I had a damn good workout.

[cvm4]

I noticed that last night. I tried pulling my lats together, that put a slight arch in my back, but I had a very tough time with stability on the narrow bench. Even with keeping tension on my legs and pushing up into my body, I was moving around. All in, it was still a good workout, but I could wish for a better bench.

I usually always have my legs tensed and my shoulder blades pulled together. IMO, it helps with the bump off the bottom, gives elasticity. That being said, I don't bench with barbell every week. I switch it up from dumbells to barbells and I believe this helps with my stabilizer muscles.

[bonjing]

what other workouts can be done for the chest? right now am doing db bench, db decline, machine incline, seated butterfly and "hulk hogans" i dont know what they are called but it looks like your doing the hulk hogan flex.

[GhostRyder]

Whoa. My friend found the coolest website I've seen in awhile. Check it out:

http://www.livestrong.com/thedailyplate/users/

This is a food journal/calorie calculator. Free and very informative. I've had 267g of protein today. ...a little overboard maybe? From what I've read though keeping a food journal can make dieting (not that I'd say I am dieting) 80% more effective.

[Genetic Defect]

I usually always have my legs tensed and my shoulder blades pulled together. IMO, it helps with the bump off the bottom, gives elasticity. That being said, I don't bench with barbell every week. I switch it up from dumbells to barbells and I believe this helps with my stabilizer muscles.

:confused:

[PeteSB75]

Shoulders last night.

Side/Front Lat Raise - neutral grip
20x10 3 sets

Front Raise (L grip) - this was a wierd one, seems to isolate the rear delts more than a regular front raise
10x15 2 sets
15x15 1 set

Cable side raise
20x15 3 sets

Upright Row
60x15 3 sets

Cable Front raise (bar) - the bar links to both sets of weights on this cable machine
(7.5x2)x15 3 sets

[KASR]

Finished up a 4week 5x5 workout last night. The final lifts were:

5x5 Weighted chest dips (35lbs over)
5x5 Upright row (110lbs)
5x5 Renegade Rows (50lb dbs)
5x5 Plyometric vertical jumps (2ft 8in)
5x5 Overhead Press (125lbs)
2x15 Inverted crunches with fitness ball
1x50 Reverse grip preacher curl (65lbs)
1x50 dumbbell kickback (20lb dbs)

This coming week we start a HIT workout! Can't wait!

[PeteSB75]

Legs this morning.

Squat
45x12 185x12 205x10 225x6
Lunges
85x10 95x10(2 sets)
Bench Step-ups
50x10(3 sets)
Seated Calf Raise
90x15(4 sets)
Standing Calf Raise
20(4 sets)
Wall Sits
2x30sec each

Haven't done wall sits in ages. Those things kill me at the end of a leg workout. Gotta start doing them again.

[icehog3]

Howdy, old gym buddies...back from vacation and back in the gym.

Decided to do a different workout to "ease" myself back into it. Started inclines with the 100lb dumbbells for 18, and just worked myself down the rack by 5's, trying to add reps every set. Hit the wall as 75's for 22, so I moved on to some dips and ended it with reps on the flat bench. Chest is still bumped 2 hours later. :)

[BigFrank]

Glad to see you back Tom.

Ive been battling a nasty chest infection thing. Fever and chills gone now, just coughing up the leftovers:pu

Meet first week in April is a maybe right now, my training buddy is going to only bench. So I will be his handler at that meet. If I competed, I would have to weigh-in Friday, compete all day Saturday then ride back up Sunday and be a handler. So that is looking like a no at the moment.
Meet I am debating about now is first weekend in May. Full Meet.

[icehog3]

Still got the crud, Frank? Hope you feel 100% soon, my friend.

[Mugen910]

Chest..Biceps...triceps.. :tu

sore...

lazy...

hope all is well gym rats!

[PeteSB75]

Destroyed my chest last night. Feeling a bit sore this morning... Heading out for a nice steak dinner tonight to get some protein in me and rest/repair. :ss

Pushups
25 25 20 12f 8f 10f

DB chest press
60x8 50x12 40x15

Incline Press (machine)
45x12 3 sets

Free-Motion Tri machine
40x12 3 sets

[The Professor]

First day back since last Thursday. Decided that I'm gonna start cutting and really working my upper body. My legs have gotten freakishly huge under a layer of fat; so I want to cut fat (in my gut and legs) and work for maintenance/tone on my upper body. Perhaps it's a mistake; but I'm planning to almost take legs out of the equation for a while (although, they'll get some work on lower back day and through cardio). Also planning to do cardio almost every day and to cut out carbs as much as possible 6 days a week. It's time to get serious again, drop some weight, and then come back with a powerlifting routine down the road.

Current weight: 230lbs
Goal weight: 200lbs

Today -- Upper back
Barbell rows: 135 x 2 x 10
Close-grip t-bar rows: 3p x 3 x 8,7,9
Barbell rows: 185 x 3 x 6,7,8
1-arm DB rows: 80lb x 1 x 10; 100lb x 2 x 8

Recumbent bike: 25 minutes

In and out in 65 minutes.

[King James]

Had a good chest day yesterday.

Switched back to using superpump and still using the volu-gro.

Have a sweet store around here called supplement warehouse. I know they sell online, but the physical warehouse is about 4 minutes from my house and is also a store.

The best thing is they price match any online website....so it is like I buy it from an online store, but get instant gratification and don't have to wait for shipping :tu

Turns out they are hiring too, maybe get a job there

[zemekone]

Turns out they are hiring too, maybe get a job there
Good luck on that James!

[Genetic Defect]

Had a good chest day yesterday.

Switched back to using superpump and still using the volu-gro.

Have a sweet store around here called supplement warehouse. I know they sell online, but the physical warehouse is about 4 minutes from my house and is also a store.

The best thing is they price match any online website....so it is like I buy it from an online store, but get instant gratification and don't have to wait for shipping :tu

Turns out they are hiring too, maybe get a job there

nice :)

[BigFrank]

Blasted some legs last night with the boys. Training session took balls long, almost 3 hours at the gym. 5 guys all squating, which sucked but working out with that many guys was cool I guess. Not my style, but getting to squat with a person who holds 5 state records and 1 national record was good.

500x3 500x3 for squats was only notable lifting done, without knee wraps.

[BigFrank]

Lil Bench tonight, I feel a little better still coughing up crap, gunk in my sinus or crud as per Tom.

Training buddy and I had a rough night, he bombed a shirted bench at 585 and 610. I bombed 415 then 435 raw, 415 I heard a jacked up pop in my left elbow, no injury but odd. Guess ya cant win em all. Hopefully next week I will be 100% rebound from the illness I am recovering from.

[King James]

good luck! hope next week goes better :tu

[BigFrank]

good luck! hope next week goes better :tu
thanks, any luck with the hook up job :D

[King James]

I have to go get an application, if not tomorrow I will go Friday

[Mugen910]

No weights tonite..just 7 miles on the boring ass treadmill because last night's 3 miler outside was fookin cold!

[icehog3]

Get better Frank, that Crud just sucks!

Off day today, back in in the morning. :ze

[King James]

Good shoulder day today.

Really like the superpump/volu-gro combo so far.

Also trying to eat better, so we will see how long that lasts!

[Genetic Defect]

I have to go get an application, if not tomorrow I will go Friday

you said they have a storefront too?

[King James]

you said they have a storefront too?

yah, it is attached to the warehouse.

There is a location in Greenfield and Oak Creek

[Genetic Defect]

yah, it is attached to the warehouse.

There is a location in Greenfield and Oak Creek

great :) I will check them out, I'm almost out of vasocharge, need to find something different to try.

[Mugen910]

4 miles tonight and then Legs/calves...I think I squatted about 225lbs 10x wooohoo!! :ze

[King James]

off day for me today.....back at it tomorrow

[icehog3]

Hit chest today, pretty decent workout for a restless night after hockey.

Tomorrow is back day...get that T-Bar loaded! :ze

[The Professor]

Hit chest today, pretty decent workout for a restless night after hockey.

Tomorrow is back day...get that T-Bar loaded! :ze
Which grip do you use on the t-bar, Admiral? I've been quite partial to the close/natural grip. Do you cycle through the different grips?

[PeteSB75]

Shoulders last night. Nothing spectacular, felt ok. Went home, ate, then went out and smoked a My Father (Pepin). Wasn't bad, but wasn't great either.

[icehog3]

Which grip do you use on the t-bar, Admiral? I've been quite partial to the close/natural grip. Do you cycle through the different grips?

I do, Dokk.....I think they all hit the back differently, and I am all about keeping the muscles "confused". I just try to keep as much stress off the biceps as I can with each different grip.

[The Professor]

I do, Dokk.....I think they all hit the back differently, and I am all about keeping the muscles "confused". I just try to keep as much stress off the biceps as I can with each different grip.
Cool. That's what I figured. I alternate between cycling all grips and hitting the close on the T-bar and then using a wider (shoulder width) grip on regular bent-over barbell rows.

[icehog3]

Cool. That's what I figured. I alternate between cycling all grips and hitting the close on the T-bar and then using a wider (shoulder width) grip on regular bent-over barbell rows.

I vary the width on my barbell rows as well, find it hits me in different ways like that as well.

[BigFrank]

Deadlifts tonight for me. Might go heavy dont know yet.

I agree with Tom on the switching up for grips. Hit some heavy set with your strongest grip, then mix it up a bit. I love doing that with pull ups. After I've blasted out my sets, I will do 2 or 3 with a super wide grip, really busts up my rear delts, and gives a good stretch.

[King James]

my gym doesnt have a tbar :mad:

[icehog3]

I agree with Tom on the switching up for grips. Hit some heavy set with your strongest grip, then mix it up a bit. I love doing that with pull ups. After I've blasted out my sets, I will do 2 or 3 with a super wide grip, really busts up my rear delts, and gives a good stretch.

I love those super wide pull-ups, Frank...really tears it up. :tu

my gym doesnt have a tbar :mad:

Olympic bar, a close grip pulldown attachment, and a corner. You can even just grip the bar just below one of the sleeves if you don't have an attackment....Old Skool!! :D

[BigFrank]

Olympic bar, a close grip pulldown attachment, and a corner. You can even just grip the bar just below one of the sleeves if you don't have an attackment....Old Skool!! :D
I like those better than using the machine version. Not only is it old skool but it makes your lower back get some work too from stabilizing the weight. :tu

Busted out some knee level rack pulls. Was fun because I can use more weight than I can pull from the floor. 645x2 was final set. Then I finished off with a stop by Wendy's on the way home. :tu hahahaha

[icehog3]

I like those better than using the machine version. Not only is it old skool but it makes your lower back get some work too from stabilizing the weight. :tu

Busted out some knee level rack pulls. Was fun because I can use more weight than I can pull from the floor. 645x2 was final set. Then I finished off with a stop by Wendy's on the way home. :tu hahahaha

Baconator?? :dr :r

[Genetic Defect]

Baconator?? :dr :r

:dr

[Mugen910]

15 mile jog today...slow steady pace...on target with the training :wo Hope everyone is having a great weekend..

[BigFrank]

Glad to hear all is going well with the training Bao.

[King James]

Back at it tomorrow afternoon. Chest day :tu

[goalie204]

started working out again last sunday, then did tue, thu, sat, and going again tmrw. Been keeping it up and it's been hard. Especially after the first 2 times where i was so sore i could barely move. Just did some cardio and full body weights for muscles /wipe brow :p

[icehog3]

started working out again last sunday, then did tue, thu, sat, and going again tmrw. Been keeping it up and it's been hard. Especially after the first 2 times where i was so sore i could barely move. Just did some cardio and full body weights for muscles /wipe brow :p

It gets better with consistency, those first couple workouts back are killers when it comes to recovery....good to see you are getting in the groove.

I am off the gym today, thank goodness after the back-to-back hockey games last night. Back to the battle manana.

[BigFrank]

I am off the gym today, thank goodness after the back-to-back hockey games last night. Back to the battle manana.
A couple of hockey games got you down there big tom??:fu
hahahhaa

Decided to get my workout for monday done today due to some family stuff going on tomorrows. lame. anyways, workout went well, still coughing and hacking up goodies.no Wendy's today, pasta later.

[icehog3]

A couple of hockey games got you down there big tom??:fu
hahahhaa

Decided to get my workout for monday done today due to some family stuff going on tomorrows. lame. anyways, workout went well, still coughing and hacking up goodies.no Wendy's today, pasta later.

Lots of double-shifting after my misconduct (my penance, LOL), but if today had been a scheduled workout day, I would have been there. :fu

Sorry to hear the crud is still lingering, Frank, I hope that chit is gone for you soon. I didn't have any Wendys either, but I had an 8 egg white chili omelette, 8 slices of bacon, an english muffin with peanut butter, hask browns for breakfast.....4 ginormous chicken tacos for lunch.....whole wheat chicken and sun dried ravioli with red pepper sauce for dinner....and I have some chicken Italian sweet sausages for my late night snack before midnight. :dr

[King James]

Lots of double-shifting after my misconduct (my penance, LOL), but if today had been a scheduled workout day, I would have been there. :fu

Sorry to hear the crud is still lingering, Frank, I hope that chit is gone for you soon. I didn't have any Wendys either, but I had an 8 egg white chili omelette, 8 slices of bacon, an english muffin with peanut butter, hask browns for breakfast.....4 ginormous chicken tacos for lunch.....whole wheat chicken and sun dried ravioli with red pepper sauce for dinner....and I have some chicken Italian sweet sausages for my late night snack before midnight. :dr

That sounds glorious.

I wish I wasn't trying to drop weight right now.

I had a rice cake and banana for breakfast..... :(

[icehog3]

That sounds glorious.

I wish I wasn't trying to drop weight right now.

I had a rice cake and banana for breakfast..... :(

I would be homicidal. :r

[King James]

I would be homicidal. :r

yah.... I eat a small breakfast/lunch and then usually have a bit more for dinner after lifting

[icehog3]

yah.... I eat a small breakfast/lunch and then usually have a bit more for dinner after lifting

I skip breakfast on lifting days (can't lift with solid food in my stomach).

I eat a big lunch....a bigger afternoon snack....a biggerer dinner. Then I really start eating. :r

[Genetic Defect]

That sounds glorious.

I wish I wasn't trying to drop weight right now.

I had a rice cake and banana for breakfast..... :(

by starving yourself?

[King James]

I skip breakfast on lifting days (can't lift with solid food in my stomach).

I eat a big lunch....a bigger afternoon snack....a biggerer dinner. Then I really start eating. :r

I don't lift until afternoon, so a smaller breakfast/lunch works for me and then after lifting have my biggest meal of the day

[icehog3]

I don't lift until afternoon, so a smaller breakfast/lunch works for me and then after lifting have my biggest meal of the day

Makes sense....I get up, take my Aleve, enter the Asylum while it kicks in, then hit the NO before I leave.

[King James]

have you tried superpump? I'm really liking it so far ( have taken in the past) but seems to work better than WF did for me and it works/tastes alot better than NOxplode

[Mugen910]

shoulders and back today...been consistent at the gym for over 2 and a half months now..feeling good at the gym but not losing any weight..even with all the cardio I do. :confused:

[icehog3]

have you tried superpump? I'm really liking it so far ( have taken in the past) but seems to work better than WF did for me and it works/tastes alot better than NOxplode

I haven't tried it yet....never had much luck with Gaspari products, but I got a free sample from bodybuilding.com and I will give it a try on Tuesday (back day).

If you like it, I found it on NetNutri.com for $29.95, more than $9 cheaper than bodybuilding.com

http://www.netnutri.com/browse.cfm/4,2051.html

[King James]

I haven't tried it yet....never had much luck with Gaspari products, but I got a free sample from bodybuilding.com and I will give it a try on Tuesday (back day).

If you like it, I found it on NetNutri.com for $29.95, more than $9 cheaper than bodybuilding.com

http://www.netnutri.com/browse.cfm/4,2051.html

Found it for $31 online and then went to the supplement warehouse here with the price and picked it up :tu

[Genetic Defect]

Found it for $31 online and then went to the supplement warehouse here with the price and picked it up :tu

for $31?:confused:

[icehog3]

Supplement Warehouse has brutal customer reviews. I just found it for 31 at FitRx right down the street from my house...so if I like the sample, I will give it a try.

[King James]

Supplement Warehouse has brutal customer reviews.

there website?

The store is about a mile from my block so all I do is find the lowest online price, show it to them, and get what I want without having to wait for shipping for that low price

[Genetic Defect]

there website?

The store is about a mile from my block so all I do is find the lowest online price, show it to them, and get what I want without having to wait for shipping for that low price

Jim, did you get it for $31?

[King James]

Jim, did you get it for $31?

yah.

if there is a lower price, they would match that..... it was just me too lazy to find it.

supplement warehouse themselves sell it for $38

[Genetic Defect]

yah.

if there is a lower price, they would match that..... it was just me too lazy to find it.

supplement warehouse themselves sell it for $38

not trying to be a PITA but could you get me a link? I may have found the place to replace BB.com :)

[King James]

bulknutrition.com

[icehog3]

there website?

The store is about a mile from my block so all I do is find the lowest online price, show it to them, and get what I want without having to wait for shipping for that low price

Yes, the website, sorry for the confusion. The on-line company's average rating is 1.3 out of 5 stars. The storefront would be fine for me, but I wouldn't order from the site.

[Genetic Defect]

bulknutrition.com

for the store near you, I too rather go pick it up then wait for days.

[King James]

yah...the only reason I use the storefront is I'm impatient and hate waiting for shipping

[King James]

http://www.supplementwarehouse.com/contact.asp

[Genetic Defect]

http://www.supplementwarehouse.com/contact.asp

thank you :tu

[Genetic Defect]

The store is the same as the warehouse? I will be going there tomorrow AM I am out of supps :(

[King James]

The store is the same as the warehouse? I will be going there tomorrow AM I am out of supps :(

I think so

[Genetic Defect]

I thought you went there to buy the superplode

[BigFrank]

shoulders and back today...been consistent at the gym for over 2 and a half months now..feeling good at the gym but not losing any weight..even with all the cardio I do. :confused:
You have to break yourself of the habit of judging progress based on what a scale says Bao. Unless you compete in something that forces you to be in a certain weight class, try to avoid using the scale.
I would look at everything else first, then maybe maybe the scale. Also remember you could be holding water at odd periods of time causing the scale to be a mis-read.
I would look at things like, overall well being, your health, body composition. I highly doubt that by eating good, jogging like a mofo, and following a weight training regime that you are by any means out of shape. If by some freak chance, everything is clicking but you are a freak and are still the same body comp wise, than some diet tweaking may be the answer.

[BigFrank]

Lots of double-shifting after my misconduct (my penance, LOL), but if today had been a scheduled workout day, I would have been there. :fu

Sorry to hear the crud is still lingering, Frank, I hope that chit is gone for you soon. I didn't have any Wendys either, but I had an 8 egg white chili omelette, 8 slices of bacon, an english muffin with peanut butter, hask browns for breakfast.....4 ginormous chicken tacos for lunch.....whole wheat chicken and sun dried ravioli with red pepper sauce for dinner....and I have some chicken Italian sweet sausages for my late night snack before midnight. :dr
Tasty stuff there Tom! Been on the double shift before due to...stuff....;)

That sounds glorious.

I wish I wasn't trying to drop weight right now.

I had a rice cake and banana for breakfast..... :(
Id would also be killing people and stealing their lunches lol!

[King James]

Tasty stuff there Tom! Been on the double shift before due to...stuff....;)


Id would also be killing people and stealing their lunches lol!

this morning I had TWO rice cakes and a banana :tu WOOHOO

[Stig]

Worked arms and chest realy hard the last two days in a row, been the first time I was able to hit the upper body this hard since I finished my physical therapy. Feels damn good though to finaly have the next morning feeling back in the muscles, that feeling like I had a good workout for two days straight.

Now to try a little harder to drop the weight gained by sitting on the couch and being fairly inactive for almost 4 months.

[The Professor]

Hit the elliptical hard this morning. Looks like I'm set to repeat last weeks TWRF schedule for lifting, with cardio everyday (though I missed both days this weekend). Will weigh in tomorrow and see if I've lost anything in the last week....


Edit: One quick funny thing about today. Got to the gym and was ready to rock out to some metal. Clicked on the iPod and it was electronica and alternapop. DAMMIT! :fl :r

[Mugen910]

You have to break yourself of the habit of judging progress based on what a scale says Bao.

Thanks Frank...I guess it's just weird to still be at this weight. I've trained for marathons before and weight loss was as natural as farting.


Id would also be killing people and stealing their lunches lol!

I get wicked cranky if I don't eat enough...but thinking of you doing this is funny.


Edit: One quick funny thing about today. Got to the gym and was ready to rock out to some metal. Clicked on the iPod and it was electronica and alternapop. DAMMIT! :fl :r

It was really Olivia Newton John...wasn't it Dokk? :r

[King James]

I get wicked cranky if I don't eat enough...but thinking of you doing this is funny.



I did treat myself to scramby eggs and bacon this weekend...... mmmmmmmmmmm

[Mugen910]

I did treat myself to scramby eggs and bacon this weekend...... mmmmmmmmmmm

hmmm...maybe that's why I'm a Fatty McFat Fat (kidding Frank) ..I had a ham and mushroom omlette with wheat toast for breakfast...:dr

[Stig]

I had a banana and a yogurt after I took the pooch out to romp in the snow this morning. Been skipping the treadmill at the gym this last week since I run in the mornings and the evening with the dog weather permitting. Nice to have a running companion

[Mugen910]

Nice to have a running companion

Cannot agree more.:tu

[BigFrank]

this morning I had TWO rice cakes and a banana :tu WOOHOO
hahahah nice! no protein??
Edit: One quick funny thing about today. Got to the gym and was ready to rock out to some metal. Clicked on the iPod and it was electronica and alternapop. DAMMIT! :fl :r
hahahah, at least it's not as bad as the 2000 top 100 crap they pump into my gym, what a freaking dump.
Thanks Frank...I guess it's just weird to still be at this weight. I've trained for marathons before and weight loss was as natural as farting.
I get wicked cranky if I don't eat enough...but thinking of you doing this is funny.

You got to remember though Bao, you are eating more and doing some weight resistance training this time around so dropping weight is going to be less noticeable as far as the scale goes. Im sure your BF% is down and your lean mass is up!
If you feel like you are hungry more often than not at this point in the gym, I would try a extra cheat meal a week or maybe try to add a few more calories here or there.

[PeteSB75]

Hit legs and low back yesterday. First time I've done deadlifts in months. I forgot how hard they are, and how much fun. Kept it fairly light, since I hadn't done them in ages, but there's just something about them that really gets me pumped.

Just curious, how much/often do you guys change up your workouts. Different exercises every time you do a body part? I've been running basically the same workout for about a month, then I change it up. I am just wondering how I can improve my response.

I've been tracking my food for the last week or so at that daily plate thing on livestrong.com. I am definitely noticing that I pay much more attention to what I eat during the course of a given day since I've been doing that. And realizing that I still have a tendency to under-eat and then get hungry and eat crap.

[King James]

hahahah nice! no protein??


Ah yes, had a glass of milk :tu

[BigFrank]

Hit legs and low back yesterday. First time I've done deadlifts in months. I forgot how hard they are, and how much fun. Kept it fairly light, since I hadn't done them in ages, but there's just something about them that really gets me pumped.

Just curious, how much/often do you guys change up your workouts. Different exercises every time you do a body part? I've been running basically the same workout for about a month, then I change it up. I am just wondering how I can improve my response.

I've been tracking my food for the last week or so at that daily plate thing on livestrong.com. I am definitely noticing that I pay much more attention to what I eat during the course of a given day since I've been doing that. And realizing that I still have a tendency to under-eat and then get hungry and eat crap.
Love me some deadlifts, best exercise!
My workouts remain pretty much the same, I track weights used and reps. Then each workout I try to either hit more reps for a certain weight or use new weights to track progress and hit Personal Records or PRs. Some guys switch it up often some others not, depends on your own abilities. For someone just getting back into working out or just starting out, I would stick to a basic routine for a few months then work from there.

Also of people tend to do that, they only eat when hungry which is often not enough at all and tend to eat garbage.

Ah yes, had a glass of milk :tu
:dr with cookies?

[King James]

:dr with cookies?


Nope....although there were some girl scout cookies in the fridge....

a missed opportunity.

[icehog3]

Edit: One quick funny thing about today. Got to the gym and was ready to rock out to some metal. Clicked on the iPod and it was electronica and alternapop. DAMMIT! :fl :r

Did you grab the Mrs.' Ipod? :r

[BigFrank]

Did you grab the Mrs.' Ipod? :rCould have happened, they both have pink ones...:dance::r

[Mugen910]

Could have happened, they both have pink ones...:dance::r

You too?!?! :D

[The Professor]

Did you grab the Mrs.' Ipod? :r
worse ... I actually put that music on yesterday when i thought I was going to head to the coffee shop to work.

a-hole. ;)

Could have happened, they both have pink ones...:dance::r
donkey. :r

[King James]

good chest day today. I love getting a good workout and feeling jacked up during and after it

[BigFrank]

did u take your pink ipod?

[The Professor]

did u take your pink ipod?
:tg

[PeteSB75]

good chest day today. I love getting a good workout and feeling jacked up during and after it

I had a great back workout last night. Felt great during the whole thing. Worked hard, went heavier than I have in the past and had no problem doing it.

I'm not sure if you guys get this, where you are lifting heavier than you have, maybe been doing a lot of high rep/low weight on a particular body part, then switch up to go heavy. When I do, and I'm having a good day, I feel like the energizer bunny. Pushing to heavier weights and maybe only getting 6 reps, and those 6 are hard as hell, but immediately after, I feel like I could jump it up again.

Last time I had a day like that, I wound up dropping a dumbell on my leg doing an incline chest press. That left a very nice bruise. But even after that, I still kept going, finished the workout.

[The Professor]

Upper back and cardio. :ze I'm drenched. :pu It's disgusting. :tu

[Mugen910]

did u take your pink ipod?
Leave him alone Frank..Pink is the new Salmon color. :r
Upper back and cardio. I'm drenched. :pu It's disgusting.

:dr



j/k


Chest,biceps,triceps tonite and a 3miler...:wo

[icehog3]

Back day for Bonzo. :ze

[King James]

Back day for Bonzo. :ze

good luck! Ill be hitting the weights about 2:30 after class :tu

[icehog3]

good luck! Ill be hitting the weights about 2:30 after class :tu

Kick some arse, King! :tu

[King James]

This eating less crap sucks. I find myself doing great for breakfast and lunch and then eat too much around dinner time and after. Maybe I'll switch to eating 4-5 small meals a day instead of 2 small ones and then a big one.

I just worry if eating before lifting would effect anything, although I've never noticed a problem.

[zemekone]

easy workout today:

100 pullups with a 25lb plate

deadlift 225lbs x 10 5 sets

30min of cardio

jiu jitsu later today...

[icehog3]

easy workout today:

100 pullups with a 25lb plate

deadlift 225lbs x 10 5 sets

30min of cardio

jiu jitsu later today...

Back day!! :tu

I did 6 sets of T-bars with 5 plates, got 22 reps the first set, down to 14 on the last set.

6 sets of pull-ups (18 reps, down to 10 reps) with varying weight added.

4 sets of DB rows with the 100s for sets of 12-14.

A couple cable rows to finish 'er off.

[Mugen910]

3 miles last night...7.25 miles today..5 tomorrow...

I'm starting to think that my lack of weight loss has something to do with me gaining muscle like Frank said. I might have to lighten the load on the weights since I need to cut lbs to ease up on the knees and shins.

[King James]

decent day today....although a little lighter. Off tomorrow and back on Friday

[PeteSB75]

Chest/Tri last night. Good workout - girlfriend was at the gym with me and turns to me after about an hour and says are we almost done? I'm getting tired. I felt again like I could have gone on for quite a bit more.

Bar work, haven't done that in a while, been doing lots of db work for chest lately.

Incline Press
45x12 95x12 115x12 135x10 155x8
Bench Press
135x12 4 sets
Decline Press(HS Machine)
70x12 80x12 90x10 100x10
Suicide Tris (Skullcrushers, close grip press, bench dips)
50x10 50x10 50x15f

[The Professor]

YESTERDAY was chest/tris + HIIT cardio:

6 sets of 5 reps @ 135 for flat bench -- on the clock
3 sets to failure @ 95 for close-grip
2 sets of 6,7 reps @ 185 for decline bench on a HS plate-loaded

straight-bar press-downs: 2 sets of 10,8 @ 140lbs
overhead triceps rope extensions: 2 sets to failure (10, 8?) @ 100lbs

15 minutes of HIIT on recumbent (45sec to 1min @ 15 resistence, 1min to 1:15min @ 5) plus 5 minutes cool down at the end


TODAY was abs and cardio

Superset:
1. Cable rope crunches @ 200lbs for 20-20-15-15-15 (13+2 b/c I can't stop at 13)
2. Landmines @ 35lb plate for 8-7-8-8

Followed it up with some hanging leg raises for good measure -- 2 sets 10

32 minutes of recumbent bike -- 20 @ 10, 10 @ 8, and 2 @ 4 (for cool down)


PS, when I weighed myself Tuesday, I dropped 2.5lbs from last week. Hope I can keep up that pace. :tu

[icehog3]

Off day. :)

[King James]

Off day. :)

same here :tu

Need one being worn down from midterms

[icehog3]

same here :tu

Need one being worn down from midterms

At least you get a Spring Break, Jim! :r

[PeteSB75]

Spring Break? What is that? I seem to remember something about that when I was a young'un...

I gotta say, been about 12 years since I finished college and I still miss having that time off every year. Maybe I should go into teaching.

[zemekone]

monstrous bench day!

170lbs...

flat bench
185x15
205x15
205x10
225x10
235x8
245x8
255x5
275x5
295x3
315x1

decline bench
225x10
225x12
225x12
245x10
295x5
315x2

incline bench
185x10
205x6
225x6
245x4
275x2

i know that was alot, but it was one of those days...

i know this is gonna fu kk up my jiu jitsu today...

[Mugen910]

monstrous bench day!

170lbs...

flat bench
185x15
205x15
205x10
225x10
235x8
245x8
255x5
275x5
295x3
315x1

decline bench
225x10
225x12
225x12
245x10
295x5
315x2

incline bench
185x10
205x6
225x6
245x4
275x2

i know that was alot, but it was one of those days...

i know this is gonna fu kk up my jiu jitsu today...
:wo

[BigFrank]

3 miles last night...7.25 miles today..5 tomorrow...

I'm starting to think that my lack of weight loss has something to do with me gaining muscle like Frank said. I might have to lighten the load on the weights since I need to cut lbs to ease up on the knees and shins.
I would go ahead and only change the degree of reps performed. The volume is ok, stay 12 or 20. Personally I would just plow through it, and stay the course, unless that is you are experiencing the bad kind of pain. If not, just be a little more proactive as far as stretching and soft tissue work goes.

Assistance work tonight. Gonna be 2 or 3 boards, maybe floor presses.

[The Professor]

Crazy bench day, Gerry. :salute:

[icehog3]

Good workout, Gerry...I will try to do you proud tomorrow. :ze

[zemekone]

Crazy bench day, Gerry. :salute:

Good workout, Gerry...I will try to do you proud tomorrow. :ze

thanks guys, but it was just "one of those days" take on the world and win days... :ze

[pnoon]

thanks guys, but it was just "one of those days" take on the world and win days... :ze

And what better way to end the day than with a good S.H.I.T. :)

[BigFrank]

monstrous bench day!
Nice workout there! Lil too much volume for a big fatty like me :r:r

[jonharky]

I have gone to the gym for a couple years money ran short so I had to get out just now getting back in and it sucks starting over but it is well worth it

[The Professor]

Nice workout there! Lil too much volume for a big fatty like me :r:r
me too. :r

[BigFrank]

me too. :r
A pink iPod and a big belly is hardcore powerlifting! :dance:

[The Professor]

A pink iPod and a big belly is hardcore powerlifting! :dance:
If I wasn't so poor right now, I'd be buying you a pink iPod just to spite you. :tg :fu

[BigFrank]

If I wasn't so poor right now, I'd be buying you a pink iPod just to spite you. :tg :fu
I would re-gift it to the old lady in hopes of getting sexy time!:D

[The Professor]

I would re-gift it to the old lady in hopes of getting sexy time!:D
dammit!

[Mugen910]

5 miles and light weights for chest,biceps,triceps :tu

[Pete]

Been working my ass off in the gym. Told the kid at the desk they need to start paying me. Three days with the weights and two with some cardio. Something ought to result from all that.

Been amusing myself on the scale. Crazy how your weight can fluctuate up to six pounds from one day to the next. My weight is thankfully trending down.

Love them landmines Dokk was talking about a few weeks ago. Put them in my routine, and they are going to stay.

Envy those youngsters throwing around that big weight. The ones here too.
(Well, when I was your age, we didn't have no pink i-pods or.... )

[The Professor]

Aren't they great?!? I love how they just shred my obliques all to hell. :D

Biceps, triceps, and traps today. Did straight bar curls, cambered bar curls, and cambered cable curls. Followed that up with some overhead rope tricep extensions, tricep rope pressdowns, and v-bar press downs. Did some shrugs, up to 315 for a few sets. Then finished the lifting off with some modified high pulls while I was putting away the 45lb plates -- just a couple of sets; but my delts were a bit sore.

Went upstairs for some cardio. Planned to do 30 minutes of 10%/3.3mph on the treadmill; but some jerkface came to the treadmill next to me wearing boatloads of perfume.

:fl :fl <rant> Why in the effing world do people feel the !@#$%$^ need to come to the @#$%&$ gym wearing @#$% $%^loads of perfume and cologne. You're their to get dirty and sweaty. If you're not going to shower afterward, put the crap on in your car. If you're that stinky when you get up that you can't even stand your own smell, then maybe you should take a !@#^%&* shower for effin sake. </rant> :fl :fl

Anyway, I couldn't breathe, so I had to cut it short at 22 minutes. To add insult to injury, I saw her leave the treadmill as I left the cardio area.

[Pete]

but some jerkface came to the treadmill next to me wearing boatloads of perfume.

:fl :fl <rant> Why in the effing world do people feel the !@#$%$^ need to come to the @#$%&$ gym wearing @#$% $%^loads of perfume and cologne. You're their to get dirty and sweaty. If you're not going to shower afterward, put the crap on in your car. If you're that stinky when you get up that you can't even stand your own smell, then maybe you should take a !@#^%&* shower for effin sake. </rant> :fl :fl




Pet peeve.
Maybe they figger they're going to get lucky or some damn thing.
One of those mirror boys just reeks of that shyt. (Can't take his eyes off hisself neither. :rolleyes:)
One group of girls that always work out together you can smell five minutes before they get there.
I think I'd rather smell a cigarette.

[The Professor]

Pet peeve.
Maybe they figger they're going to get lucky or some damn thing.
One of those mirror boys just reeks of that shyt. (Can't take his eyes off hisself neither. :rolleyes:)
One group of girls that always work out together you can smell five minutes before they get there.
I think I'd rather smell a cigarette.
Yeah. I think because of my asthma, my lungs just start to close up when I'm around too much perfume or cologne. I literally can't breathe. My wife will put too much on from time to time and I just wince.... She doesn't like that. :r

[PeteSB75]

Been working my ass off in the gym. Told the kid at the desk they need to start paying me. Three days with the weights and two with some cardio. Something ought to result from all that.

Been amusing myself on the scale. Crazy how your weight can fluctuate up to six pounds from one day to the next. My weight is thankfully trending down.

Love them landmines Dokk was talking about a few weeks ago. Put them in my routine, and they are going to stay.

Envy those youngsters throwing around that big weight. The ones here too.
(Well, when I was your age, we didn't have no pink i-pods or.... )

Your weight does fluctuate both from day to day and throughout the course of a given day. I weigh myself no more than once a week.

Gotta try the landmines tomorrow when I do legs/abs.

Shoulders last night, felt pretty crap. Arnold presses, Upright rows and side lat raises and I was beat. Think I might be getting a sinus infection. I hate that crap :(

[Ironfreak]

I don't know why I don't try to jump on this thread to motivate myself to stick to my routine. I fell off the bandwagon with training back in 2005. I probably didn't get more than a day a week in the gym since then. My rnew years resolution is to get back into the swing of things. My goal is to get back to how I looked in 2002.. Here is how I used to look, which is far from what I look like today.. In the pic, I am probably 230lbs @ 10-12% BF. Now, I am probably 225lbs, but closer to 20% BF (And weak as hell.. LOL)

[Mugen910]

best of luck Kris...

[King James]

back @ it today... prolly a leg day

[Ironfreak]

best of luck Kris...

Thanks Bao..

(At least you didn't say I was 'cute' :tu)

[icehog3]

I don't know why I don't try to jump on this thread to motivate myself to stick to my routine. I fell off the bandwagon with training back in 2005. I probably didn't get more than a day a week in the gym since then. My rnew years resolution is to get back into the swing of things. My goal is to get back to how I looked in 2002.. Here is how I used to look, which is far from what I look like today.. In the pic, I am probably 230lbs @ 10-12% BF. Now, I am probably 225lbs, but closer to 20% BF (And weak as hell.. LOL)

Muscle memory, Kris...It will come back fast if you get back to consistency. :tu

[Mugen910]

Thanks Bao..

(At least you didn't say I was 'cute' :tu)

dammit..sorry....That's a CUTE idea!

[Genetic Defect]

I'm sure most of you know of this site :)

http://wheycheap.com/

[icehog3]

I'm sure most of you know of this site :)

http://wheycheap.com/

Never seen it before, Perry. Do they ever put any quality products on it?

[Genetic Defect]

Never seen it before, Perry. Do they ever put any quality products on it?

from what I read they sometimes do, maybe tomorrow they will.

[icehog3]

from what I read they sometimes do, maybe tomorrow they will.

Yeah, that stuff on there tonight is garbage....if you see something good, let us know! :)

[Genetic Defect]

Yeah, that stuff on there tonight is garbage....if you see something good, let us know! :)

strawberry :dr :r

[icehog3]

strawberry :dr :r

Protein source is complete trash. :2

[Genetic Defect]

Protein source is complete trash. :2

I didn't read into it but I'm sure it was. I'm thinking of trying VPX graham cracker next.

[icehog3]

I didn't read into it but I'm sure it was. I'm thinking of trying VPX graham cracker next.

VPX is good....I am sticking with the ON 100%, good quality and I like the RR flavor.

[Genetic Defect]

ON 100% is still the best I had followed by muscle milk cake batter

[icehog3]

ON 100% is still the best I had followed by muscle milk cake batter

Never had that flavor, but it sounds :dr

[zemekone]

i know its expensive, but i like BSNs Mochachinno, but my goto is GNCs (cuz i get it cheap :D) chocolate caramel...

[The Professor]

The Chocolate Caramel form GNC is fine; but the Admiral got me hooked on ON's Rocky Road. It's the shiznit. Their Cookies 'n Cream is good, too.

Back from an hour of cardio -- 30 minutes on the recumbent and 30 minutes on the treadmill. I ate too much sh*t yesterday. :(

[BigFrank]

Ive been using Dymatize Elite Whey. It's cheap, similar formula to ON 100% and the Cafe Mocha flavor is unreal! With milk it reminds me of a cappuccino...

[Genetic Defect]

Never had that flavor, but it sounds :dr

it is if you like yellow cake batter :dr

[icehog3]

The Chocolate Caramel form GNC is fine; but the Admiral got me hooked on ON's Rocky Road. It's the shiznit. Their Cookies 'n Cream is good, too.

Back from an hour of cardio -- 30 minutes on the recumbent and 30 minutes on the treadmill. I ate too much sh*t yesterday. :(

F*kin A, Bubba! :tu

[zemekone]

Pullups for days today again...

time to tweek the diet again...

[Mugen910]

Covered 16 miles of asphalt today...thank goodness the weather was in the 60's today :wo
Knees held up ok but my fookin shins. :-( Tomorrow is light weights and the stationary bike. :tu

Hope everyone had a great weekend.

[PeteSB75]

Feel like crap, can't sleep, sinus infection, post-nasal drip, coughing... Haven't felt like lifting since thursday. Hope these antibiotics start working soon so I can get back to normal.

[icehog3]

Trashed my delts today in a short but heavy workout. Legs and arms (I ran out of time for arms today) on the schedule for manana. :ze

[Mugen910]

Feel like crap, can't sleep, sinus infection, post-nasal drip, coughing... Haven't felt like lifting since thursday. Hope these antibiotics start working soon so I can get back to normal.

Hope you start feeling better soon bro.

Trashed my delts today in a short but heavy workout. Legs and arms (I ran out of time for arms today) on the schedule for manana. :ze

:tu

[King James]

chest day today :wo

[icehog3]

chest day today :wo

Have a good one, Jim! :tu

I trashed my legs and arms before work, did 6 sets of 8 to failure on every exercise.

[marge796]

I'm a little confused? Does this require going to a gym? If so then I need some instruction. :)

[The Professor]

Got up and to the gym late today. Was parking illegally; so I rushed things a bit.

Superset bent-over rows medium & close grip @ 185lbs 10, 8, 6 each grip

100lb DB rows: 10, 10, 8

Cardio: 20 minutes on the recumbent.

Got back to the car and no ticket. :D

Tomorrow I'll "bring it" a bit more with chest ... especially since the witch doctor really helped my shoulder/back. Oh yeah ... I finally went and saw a good chiro on Friday. He got *exactly* the spot that had been bothering me. Turns out I had a rib out of place (which is what I thought months ago). That rib was pulling on things in a bad way. Anyway, it's a lot better. Slept weird last night and it threw it out just a little bit again; but I'm going back in on Friday for another bone-cracking. :D

Rock on! :ze

[Mugen910]

A rib outta place does not sound cool! It also sounds freakin painful!

[Pete]

Today is my third day off. Longest consecutive break since before Christmas. Had some kind of flu crap Saturday, was recouping Sunday, and still not up to snuff today. Pizzes me off to have something outside my control disrupt my routine.

I'll hammer 'em tomorrow. See you all there.... :tu

[BigFrank]

Busted some chest / tris up tonight. Mediocre workout to be honest, nothing special. Gonna run this program for another 3 weeks then I think going to switch it up some.

[icehog3]

Busted some chest / tris up tonight. Mediocre workout to be honest, nothing special. Gonna run this program for another 3 weeks then I think going to switch it up some.


You over "The Crud", Frank?

[zemekone]

I'm a little confused? Does this require going to a gym? If so then I need some instruction. :)

what kind of instruction?

[Shaerza]

Any of you have some links to good sites explaining proper bench form? I have been trying to add in some sets with the bar instead of just dumbell, but it seems that my lifting partner is telling me to space my hands too far apart.. I have problems with pain at the base of my thumb when I grip so far out, but I am not sure if its due to bad form or just bad joints. Thx

[The Professor]

Well ... it's what keeps effing up my shoulder. You see, the rib out pulls everything a little ... including my clavicle, which then pulls on the muscle and connective tissue on the front of my shoulder. Basically, it's a chain reaction that effs everything up. :r Need to go back in b/c it slipped out again. Not as bad as before; but being out for so long, it's goign to take a couple of visits before everything stay where it's supposed to. That said...

Had a good chest day today. Did 4 sets of 5 @ 135 and decided I've been doing that for too long; so I bumped it up.

3 x 145: no problem
3 x 155: did 2 sets. first one was wobbly. second one was good. if I had a spot, I would have gone for 3 x 165; but I figured (a) I didn't want 165lbs on my chest and (b) I did enough reps for the day.

Followed that up with close-grip presses @ 95 until failure for 2 sets with minimal rest. Then I supersetted overhead tricep rope extensions and straight-bar pressdowns to failure for 3 sets.

Followed that up with DIPS. That's right, Gerry ... I did dips. Discovered that we have a dip machine up with all the machines. Managed to crank out 3 sets of 5 @ 200lbs. I guess that means I can do real dips once I drop my body weight. :r

Thinking about doubling up on things here soon -- meaning doing a full hour of lifting in the morning and then a full hour of cardio at night. Yeah ... I know it would make more sense to do it the other way around; but I can do the cardio by walking in the neighborhood or whatever and my gym pass is only good for the AM hours (don't ask).

What I wouldn't give for some cle.... Never mind. :dance:

GOOD LIFTING TO ALL!!!! :ze

[zemekone]

Followed that up with DIPS. That's right, Gerry ... I did dips. Discovered that we have a dip machine up with all the machines. Managed to crank out 3 sets of 5 @ 200lbs. I guess that means I can do real dips once I drop my body weight. :r


real dips? finally!
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/7560/cry3008sn3.jpg

[icehog3]

Different grips will alter both the location of muscle stimulation in the chest, as well as stress on the delts and triceps, Dan. I used to bench with a very wide grip when I was younger, but found later that for muscle building a narrower grip worked better for me. Keep in mind that I am not benching for a "max" or powerlifting purposes anymore. A couple inches wider than shoulder width is my norm, but I will vary the width some days to hit my chest in a different way.

Anything that causes pain (other than muscle soreness) is not a good thing, no matter what your lifting partner tells you.

[The Professor]

Any of you have some links to good sites explaining proper bench form? I have been trying to add in some sets with the bar instead of just dumbell, but it seems that my lifting partner is telling me to space my hands too far apart.. I have problems with pain at the base of my thumb when I grip so far out, but I am not sure if its due to bad form or just bad joints. Thx
There are a couple of rings on the bar that are a little more than shoulder width apart -- some call those the "power rings" (don't know if that's the real name). Proper, competition bench dictates that your hands are inside those rings. So when I line up for a bench, I stick the outside edges of my pinkies on the inside of those rings. That said, I'll vary my grip width depending on what I'm wanting to accomplish (i.e., hit the shoulders, tris, or pecs more).

There are LOTS of vids and articles online about doing bench. I can't find the really good vid right now that Gerry showed me once. It's this eastern european guy (I think that's his accent -- maybe serbian) and he has some nice instructional videos.

Paging zemekone. :D :ze

[icehog3]

Congrats on "dippin'", Dokk! :D
Thinking about doubling up on things here soon -- meaning doing a full hour of lifting in the morning and then a full hour of cardio at night. Yeah ... I know it would make more sense to do it the other way around; but I can do the cardio by walking in the neighborhood or whatever and my gym pass is only good for the AM hours (don't ask).



Why? I have lifted in the mornings and played hockey at night for years, and it works great. :)

[The Professor]

Congrats on "dippin'", Dokk! :D


Why? I have lifted in the mornings and played hockey at night for years, and it works great. :)
Thanks, Admiral. :tu It's the first time my shoulder has felt good enough for dips in a long time.

In terms of the cardio... I guess I was thinking (hypothetically) that cardio in the morning would jump start my metabolism throughout the day and lifting at night would allow for an immediate good resting/repair period (sleep). But if the reverse works well for you, then I say HUZZAH!!! :D

[icehog3]

Thanks, Admiral. :tu It's the first time my shoulder has felt good enough for dips in a long time.

In terms of the cardio... I guess I was thinking (hypothetically) that cardio in the morning would jump start my metabolism throughout the day and lifting at night would allow for an immediate good resting/repair period (sleep). But if the reverse works well for you, then I say HUZZAH!!! :D

HUZZAH, indeed! :tu :r

[The Professor]

So here's a question for y'all: how good do you think racquetball is as cardio? Like if I put in 45 minutes to an hour of r-ball, is that as good as 30 minutes of incline walking on the treadmill? Or recumbent bike? Or elliptical?

[icehog3]

It is like hockey...intense periods of exertion with periods of "rest". Might not be the same as cardio on a treadmill, bike, etc., but if it is fun, I am more likely to do a lot more of it. :)

[Shaerza]

So here's a question for y'all: how good do you think racquetball is as cardio? Like if I put in 45 minutes to an hour of r-ball, is that as good as 30 minutes of incline walking on the treadmill? Or recumbent bike? Or elliptical?

I find racquetball to be an awesome workout, compared to the other options, if you have an equally skilled partner. My lifting partner and I play for 1.5 hours twice a week between lifting days. We started playing at the same time so the games are even and we both have to work just as hard. Its not as great of a workout if you are playing with someone much better then yourself... and they are trying to win games rather then play for the excersize.

Like Tom says, its is a whole lot more fun then running by yourself, so it is very easy to play for a lot longer then you expected

[Mugen910]

Like Tom says, its is a whole lot more fun then running by yourself, so it is very easy to play for a lot longer then you expected

Hey, I like running by myself!!! sometimes


















;)

[The Professor]

You like doing a lot of things by yourself, don't you Bao. :dance: :r

[Mugen910]

You like doing a lot of things by yourself, don't you Bao. :dance: :r

So what's your point Dokk? :fu

[PeteSB75]

Any of you have some links to good sites explaining proper bench form? I have been trying to add in some sets with the bar instead of just dumbell, but it seems that my lifting partner is telling me to space my hands too far apart.. I have problems with pain at the base of my thumb when I grip so far out, but I am not sure if its due to bad form or just bad joints. Thx

Dunno about a site, but you should read the same book I am reading - Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe and Lon Kilgore. Awesome book for technique in the five basic barbell exercises.

http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-2nd-Mark-Rippetoe/dp/0976805421/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236701565&sr=8-1

[Pete]

Bench press site (http://www.bench-press.net/bench-press.html)

[PeteSB75]

Bench press site (http://www.bench-press.net/bench-press.html)

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/exercises.php?Real_New=%3C%3D+7&Name=&MainMuscle=Chest&Equip=Barbell&Isolation=&order=Name

Is an ok description, but I don't know that you will find a good one online, at least not in the depth you should be getting.

Pete, that site is a bit over the top... The bench press is the most popular (and arguably the most hard hitting) upper body muscle building exercise

It is considered an isolation exercise. It works the pecs and a little of the triceps and shoulders. Give me a squat, deadlift or press (standing, overhead) any day as a measure of pure strength. Something that involves more than just a couple of muscles at least.

Shaerza, your hands should be just past shoulder width apart. Any wider than that might let you lift more weight, but it decreases the range of motion of the bar and can result in shoulder injuries/chronic pain. If it is hurting your thumbs, it's too wide. Your forearms should be perpendicular to both the ground and the bar at all times.

[Pete]

[url]
Pete, that site is a bit over the top...




Agreed. Everything with a grain of salt. Apparently there is at least one person out there to whom the bench press is the shnitz. ;)

Tripped over the site some time ago while tryiong to decipher some shoulder pain. A few good pointers none the less.

[Genetic Defect]

I simply disagree with that :tu

[hova45]

Nice good to see that this thread was started over here :wo

[PeteSB75]

I simply disagree with that :tu

Which, that the bench is an isolation? Or that it is or is not a good indicator of overall strength? Or that that site is OTT? Or that I am ugly? That Bao likes doing things by himself?

:ss

[Genetic Defect]

Which, that the bench is an isolation? Or that it is or is not a good indicator of overall strength? Or that that site is OTT? Or that I am ugly? That Bao likes doing things by himself?

:ss

:r yes?

I disagree that squats are a good overall strength indicator

[PeteSB75]

:r yes?

I disagree that squats are a good overall strength indicator

Power Clean and Press? I'm still working on mechanics for those.

[The Professor]

:r yes?

I disagree that squats are a good overall strength indicator
why? they require strong hams, quads, glutes, spinal erectors, traps, lats, and the ability to use them all basically at the same time.

seems like a better overall strength indicator than the bench.

then again, my vote goes to deadlift. it always goes to deadlift. :D :ze

[Mugen910]

Which, that the bench is an isolation? Or that it is or is not a good indicator of overall strength? Or that that site is OTT? Or that I am ugly? That Bao likes doing things by himself?

:ss

:r yes?


:tpd:

[PeteSB75]

why? they require strong hams, quads, glutes, spinal erectors, traps, lats, and the ability to use them all basically at the same time.

seems like a better overall strength indicator than the bench.

then again, my vote goes to deadlift. it always goes to deadlift. :D :ze

I can go with the deadlift. That is a brutal exercise that always gets me pumped when I do it, especially after squatting.

[The Professor]

I can go with the deadlift. That is a brutal exercise that always gets me pumped when I do it, especially after squatting.
Man ... now I want to go deadlift something.

Where's my Geo? :ze

:r:r:r

[BigFrank]

I would say Deadlift for best over all strength indicator. I don't know about bench being an isolation exercises, that sounds like a bunch of bull to me.

As for the bench form question I have always told people this...I think we debated about this before.

A closer grip with elbows tucked, a solid base and tight back will keep you healthy and strong, and allow you to press a long time.
A wide grip with no base to push from will destroy your shoulders.
If you want chest isolation flat bench is not the answer. If you want to get strong and pack on some decent mass, bench away.

I'm over the crud as far as I can tell Tom. Everything seems to have rolled out so to speak lol.

Pulling tonight.

[The Professor]

Pulling tonight.
Pull one more for me, Frank. I'm on a DL embargo for a few weeks total. Gonna get back on the horse next week, methinks.

Okay ... maybe sooner. Gotta paint my ipod pink first, though. :tg

[BigFrank]

Pink ipods are mandatory for heavy deadlifts.

[Mugen910]

Pull one more for me, Frank. I'm on a DL embargo for a few weeks total. Gonna get back on the horse next week, methinks.

Okay ... maybe sooner. Gotta paint my ipod pink first, though. :tg

Pink ipods are mandatory for heavy deadlifts.

:r

[PeteSB75]

Pink ipods are mandatory for heavy deadlifts.

I need to get some pink earbuds to go with it tho. Pink cord too.

These should do:
http://www.amazon.com/Coby-CVE51PNK-Jammerz-Isolating-Earphones/dp/B001BP22F4/ref=pd_bbs_8?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1236717583&sr=8-8

BTW, you are right Frank. I misread the listing. BB.com has it listed as compound. My bad.

[The Professor]

I need to get some pink earbuds to go with it tho. Pink cord too.

These should do:
http://www.amazon.com/Coby-CVE51PNK-Jammerz-Isolating-Earphones/dp/B001BP22F4/ref=pd_bbs_8?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1236717583&sr=8-8

BTW, you are right Frank. I misread the listing. BB.com has it listed as compound. My bad.
with this:

http://www.amazon.com/Apple-iPod-nano-Pink-Generation/dp/B001FA1NEG/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1236717766&sr=1-8

[The Professor]

with this:

http://www.amazon.com/Apple-iPod-nano-Pink-Generation/dp/B001FA1NEG/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1236717766&sr=1-8
though this is more likely to be my next one:

http://www.amazon.com/Apple-iPod-shuffle-Pink-Generation/dp/B001FA1NSC/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1236717810&sr=1-5

:D (and if you think I'm joking, you don't know me well enough)

[BigFrank]

Pony up the 20 bucks and get the 2GB one Prof.

Heavy lifting requires, a pink ipod with matching pink headphones held inside a pink, possibly leopard print fanny pack.

Tonights session blew ass for me. Bombed 2 lifts, another totally failed attempted. Dont know why but my quads and hams felt tight for who knows why. Overall bad night.

[Pete]

Good one tonight. I was feeling it after three days off.

bench press
135 x 12 x 2 sets (warm up)
155 x 10 x 2 sets
175 x 8 x 2 sets
195 x 6 x 2 sets
215 x 5 x 2 sets

decline bench
185 x 6 x 3 sets

cable cross overs chest
70 x 10 x 3 sets

dumbell curls
50 x 10
55 x 10
60 x 8

barbell curls
95 x10 x 3 sets

skull crushers
85 x 10 x 3 sets

close grip bench
165 x 6 x 4 sets

overhead cable tri rope extensions
100 x 3 x 3 sets

cable tri rope pull downs
80 x 10 x 3 sets

cable v-grip push downs
120 x 8 x 2-1/2 sets (tri's gave out)

abs cable
150 x 20

crunches cable 150 x20

Broke a sweat. :dance:

Cardio tomorrow.
Back and legs Thursday.

[icehog3]

[Give me a squat, deadlift or press (standing, overhead) any day as a measure of pure strength. Something that involves more than just a couple of muscles at least.



I agree with you that those exercises are a better indicator of overall strength than the flat bench. Keep in mind though, that sheer strength is not everyone's goal. Sport specifric training, bodybuilding, weight loss, etc are often more important to some lifters.

That being said, I was always stronger (relative to my weight) on squats and deadlifts than I was on flat bench. At this point, I am actually significantly stronger on the incline bench that I am on flats, and find it builds the pecs better as well (for me).

Nice good to see that this thread was started over here :wo

Joey!! :D

I'm over the crud as far as I can tell Tom. Everything seems to have rolled out so to speak lol.




Good news, Frank! :tu

[Genetic Defect]

Power Clean and Press? I'm still working on mechanics for those.

that IMHO is the best one :) of course I'm in the minority here.

[Genetic Defect]

why? they require strong hams, quads, glutes, spinal erectors, traps, lats, and the ability to use them all basically at the same time.

seems like a better overall strength indicator than the bench.

then again, my vote goes to deadlift. it always goes to deadlift. :D :ze

Pete has the best answer, try it dokk and find out why ;)

[PeteSB75]

Decided to try out the workout from Starting Strength last night, and so change things up a bit.

Squat
45x8
95x8
135x6
185x5
235x5 (3 sets) - new PR

Deadlift
135x5 (6 sets) - had someone to watch me left and critique form, so was working on that rather than push the weight up. Think that was even harder than pushing the weight, tbh.

Press - Standing, Overhead - first time I've done this with a barbell
45x5 2 sets
65x5
95x5 3 sets

I was tired but not bombed after finishing. My quads are a bit sore today.

[Mugen910]

last night 4 miles then light weights and high reps for chest, biceps, triceps :tu

[hova45]

well Seeing so many members working out is great I will start working out again pretty soon, just need an okay from my doctor and I am good to go.

[PeteSB75]

that IMHO is the best one :) of course I'm in the minority here.

Gotta be honest, the Power Clean scares me a bit. Going to spend some time working on mechanics for it tomorrow with one of the guys here at work. I think I also need to work on the flexibility to be able to rack it. Was chatting with someone at the gym last night - the same guy who was helping me out with my dead. He said there is a small private gym he goes to near there that is all olympic lifting. I might have to check that out, especially if it's not much money. Definitely be worth more than the cash I was shelling out on the trainer at LA Fitness.

[Genetic Defect]

Gotta be honest, the Power Clean scares me a bit. Going to spend some time working on mechanics for it tomorrow with one of the guys here at work. I think I also need to work on the flexibility to be able to rack it. Was chatting with someone at the gym last night - the same guy who was helping me out with my dead. He said there is a small private gym he goes to near there that is all olympic lifting. I might have to check that out, especially if it's not much money. Definitely be worth more than the cash I was shelling out on the trainer at LA Fitness.

Sounds like a potential gold mine :)

[PeteSB75]

Sounds like a potential gold mine :)

That's what I was thinking. I'll have to get the info on it from him the next time I see him.

[icehog3]

Got ticked off today at the gym, they were missing a piece of equipment (a weighted belt) that I had intended to use for pull-ups. :mad:

Had a good back workout anyway though.

[Mugen910]

Tom you shoulda just held the 25lbs weight in your mouth..that woulda been hardcore! :D

[BigFrank]

well Seeing so many members working out is great I will start working out again pretty soon, just need an okay from my doctor and I am good to go.
good to hear from ya again Joey! get that arse back in the gym, you know u miss it! ;)

[icehog3]

Tom you shoulda just held the 25lbs weight in your mouth..that woulda been hardcore! :D

My teeth are my weakest bodypart, Bao.




;) :r

[PeteSB75]

Trying something new again this morning. Pushed the weight on the squat, but just wasn't feeling it, so backed off a little for my work sets.

Squat
45x5
95x5
135x5
185x5
240x5 new PR
225x5 2 sets.

Bench
45x5
65x5
95x5
135x5
145x5 3 sets

Hang Clean - I'm working up to the power clean, just working on mechanics right now
95x5 (6 sets)

[Mugen910]

only 4 miles last night due to shin pains :c then back and shoulders.

[The Professor]

just abs and cardio today. supersets of cable rope crunches and landmines. threw in some hanging leg raises for good measure. followed it up with some incline treadmill @ 10% and 3.7 to 3.3 mph.

[Pete]

only 4 miles last night due to shin pains :c


Used to run, a lot. Like up to sixty miles a week prior to a marathon. Broke 3:15 in my last one. Wanted to step it up a notch and break 3 hours, so I commenced training for that. Developed severe hip pain, thought it to be a stress facture. Did the MRI stuff and everything. Turned out to be a destroyed bursa. Go figure. Quit running. Lived with the hip pain for about twenty years and fnally got me one of those titanium hip things. Now I won't run out of house if it's on fire.

[King James]

took off day yesterday instead of today. Hitting the gym this afternoon. Would try doing some outdoor biking since I'm on spring break....but we haven't hit double digits temperatures yet today so I don't think that is going to happen. I'm getting some lovely spring break weather.....

[PeteSB75]

only 4 miles last night due to shin pains :c then back and shoulders.

You doing shin splint exercises? We did a modified calf raise, up onto the ball of your feet, then rocking back onto the heels, when I did track/cross country in school - tho it's been a while...

[Mugen910]

You doing shin splint exercises? We did a modified calf raise, up onto the ball of your feet, then rocking back onto the heels, when I did track/cross country in school - tho it's been a while...

I should try that, Pete. I usually am ok when I run outside but the treadmill for some reason kills me. I actually assumed that the treadmill would be easier on my legs but what do I know. :(

[icehog3]

[QUOTE=King James;283806 Would try doing some outdoor biking since I'm on spring break....but we haven't hit double digits temperatures yet today so I don't think that is going to happen. I'm getting some lovely spring break weather.....[/QUOTE]

Maybe you should buy a pogo stick, Jim. ;) :r

I am off to the gym, legs and arms. Back feels good, think I will hit the squats hard.

[Genetic Defect]

Maybe you should buy a pogo stick, Jim. ;) :r

I am off to the gym, legs and arms. Back feels good, think I will hit the squats hard.

:r
its 16 Jim enjoy your bike ride. or pogo hop

[BigFrank]

Hang Clean - I'm working up to the power clean, just working on mechanics right now
95x5 (6 sets)I like hang cleans better than power cleans. They make my neck disappear.!

only 4 miles last night due to shin pains :c then back and shoulders.
You been stretching and doing any soft tissue work? Also how long has it been since you started the program?


Assistance crap tonight, tired.

[King James]

Maybe you should buy a pogo stick, Jim. ;) :r


I'm not athletic enough...but Tiger could do it I bet.

20 out now, Perry.... Heat Wave!

heading to the gym now

[Mugen910]

You been stretching and doing any soft tissue work? Also how long has it been since you started the program?




No idea what soft tissue work is....I think I starting this program in late Dec..There are some days that my shins feel fine and others where a short jog hurts.