What is a very good Espresso machine

[germantown rob]

Originally Posted by Silound

Moral of the story is check with your local coffee shop. If you're in real close, they may even buy one and sell it to you at cost (for them Mini's run about $450 I was told).

The Mazzer Mini are up to $599 for new. That probably translates into the $550 range with a phone call but if you just go to amazon expect to pay over $650.

[Mister Moo]

Humidor Minister? This is Houston. Come in.

Have you made a move yet or have we left you more confused than ever?

I've read it all in this thread and here's my consolidation opinion: if you want to make great cappuccinos for $500 you are shopping hard for used equipment which means you need a mechanics eye to fixing a few things.

a. Silvia IS the first real* espresso machine mentioned for around $600;
b. a $30 AeroPress DOES make a cappuccino-passable brew;
c. a $20 mokapot will produce cappa-passable brew with practice;
d. you gotta have a grinder ($150 to $600); or
e. limit yourself to commercial preground cans (not the greatest but no up front money for grinder); but
f. without the Silvia you need a way to froth milk which means -
i. you need a plunger-frother (cheap but not hardly the real deal), or
ii. you need a stovetop frother mokapot with steam wand (Bellman style**)

Seriously... making a "real" good cappuccino at home is a labor of love and it ain't cheap to play. The combination of a steam-powered stovetop frother (say $50), mokapot or AeroPress ($30) and a low-end burr grinder (which is fine for AeroPress or mokapot - $130) isn't too pricey for very good quality. If you wanna make a not-too-shabby cappa at home with the press and the frother you'd find them OK, too, using commercial espresso pre-ground coffee - thus saving the cost of the grinder.

After the bargain route above there is the Silvia with preground commercial coffee - in your range; or the Silvia with a matching grinder - nearly double your range.

Germ'robs experiences will be interesting on this subject since he recently passed from low-tech mokapot to high-tech HX commercial-guts espresso maker with monster grinder. I am interested to hear how he'll compare a mokapot cappuccino to an Nuova Simonelli Oscar cappuccino.

*sufficient heat, 58mm basket and a three-way solenoid

** I have read very mixed reviews on the Bellman that cover the range from impossible to use to very good. I never hand my hands on one to make an honest call. I suspect it works well if you take the time to really figure it out.

[germantown rob]

Originally Posted by Mister Moo

Germ'robs experiences will be interesting on this subject since he recently passed from low-tech mokapot to high-tech HX commercial-guts espresso maker with monster grinder. I am interested to hear how he'll compare a mokapot cappuccino to an Nuova Simonelli Oscar cappuccino.

Moo, I believe you said once that going down the path to make real espresso and frothing milk is an exercise of insanity, or something like that. I agree, but man this is some good stuff!

20+ years of pretty much just using a moka pot, I love her dearly and her sisters as well. They are heart broken as they sit there and oxidize while Miss Oscar does her sexy thing. Miss Oscar is an animal, I can have friends come over and we play with her all night and she doesn't complain at all in fact she can satisfy all our needs. Maybe I am just being hard on the old lady since this fine young thing came around and I may long for the company of an old familiar, but at this point I just can't get enough. I visit Miss Oscar 3 times in the morning ( gotta get my 3rd cappa in before 10am) once or twice for a quicky after lunch and my wife joins in when she gets home from work.

Can a moka pot come close to a true espresso? NO, not even close. A moka pot is a great way to brew and should be enjoyed and figured out as exactly what it is, a moka pot.

I will say the AeroPress delivers a closer representation of an espresso taste. I will try one with some frothed milk from Miss Oscar and get back to that (Ha, it happened again, I thought about brewing a different way and it just isn't going to happen yet). The AeroPress, a microwave, and a battery hand frother should put you in the game for $50 if you have the microwave, $100 if you don't. I would not turn down a false cappa from this setup and would enjoy it as well if the beans and water are up to my standards that is.

Even if a person has money to burn and bought a great espresso machine (easily can spend $10k) if they don't know how to use their machine it is worthless. That is why there are super auto machines, they can't do it as well as a real person that knows what they are doing but they will do a good job. Now I am a complete newb to this espresso machine thing but as a roaster I am obsessed with the taste of coffee so it only natural for me to gravitate towards having my own machine. That's my story and I am sticking to it. Even as a newb I was able to get some of the local cafe's fresh beans and tune in after a few attempts the same shot the owner pulls (this is why you must have a good, no a great grinder). Frothing milk is a different story, I have practiced with 2 gallons and can only get decent foam 50% of the time and 10% of the time I can get some microfoam, so this is the hard part for me.

Something else about buying equipment at this level is the attention the good shops and the companies that make this equipment give you. They have been excellent taking their time and getting things working proper with a newb like me. N.S. is sending a smaller hole frothing tip to help with my piss poor abilities. Baratza has been working with me to re-calibrate the Vario fine grind, I am waiting to here from Kyle the designer of the Vario to get his help with tuning it just right. Kyra, the VP from Baratza just wants to send me a new one since it seems like I got one of first shipments that seems to have been calibrated for a coarser grind.

This has been a pleasure getting involved with the crazy world of espresso.

[Mister Moo]

Originally Posted by germantown rob

...Can a moka pot come close to a true espresso? NO, not even close...

I was thinking more along these lines. "Once your sink two ounces of good moka, good espresso or good AeroPress under 4-10 ounces of milk that has been steamed, stretched and frothed - and then, optionally, add a teaspoon or two or sugar - it all tastes like a pretty darn good cappuccino. Different, but decent." Concur or disagree?

Good luck with microfoam. The Oscar steamer scared the snork out of me for about a week. A couple of gallons later things come together like the hot kiss at the end of a wet fist - small pitcher half full, 10-15 seconds, smooth like silk, do it with your eyes closed.

[germantown rob]

Originally Posted by Mister Moo

I was thinking more along these lines. "Once your sink two ounces of good moka, good espresso or good AeroPress under 4-10 ounces of milk that has been steamed, stretched and frothed - and then, optionally, add a teaspoon or two or sugar - it all tastes like a pretty darn good cappuccino. Different, but decent." Concur or disagree?

Good luck with microfoam. The Oscar steamer scared the snork out of me for about a week. A couple of gallons later things come together like the hot kiss at the end of a wet fist - small pitcher half full, 10-15 seconds, smooth like silk, do it with your eyes closed.

Now that I am not vibrating with 10 double shots I can calmly say I concur. Tomorrow morning I will fire up the 4 cupper moka you gave to me add some foam and a tid bit of the milk. To be honest I never made a cap with the moka. I really just fire up a couple of pots of the 6 cupper and pour it down my throat, the only side effect is the strange places hair grows on me.

Oscar and steam, wow, what a beast. Here is what the first few attempts of steaming 5oz of milk went like.

turn knob to flush wand, ouch, that's gonna leave a mark, turn steam off.
insert tip in pitcher, turn steam on, hold on for dear life, 6 seconds pass, ouch this is hot, drop pitcher, 175 f milk everywhere, steam from wand hitting me while trying to get pitcher, ouch as I grab the wand on the non protected metal, turn steam off. Drink double shot and try and get 2 year old to stop repeating the string of words she just heard. Start over while listening to the little angle screams profanities at the top of her lungs in the backyard. The only improvement was not dropping the pitcher the rest stayed the same till I ran out of milk. By the second gallon I wasn't burning myself at all and the hot milk didn't have skin on top. Still can't do 4 ozs but can do 6 pretty darn well and the burns have healed nicely.

[floydpink]

I still have periodic explosions from turning the steam wand on too strong and have to duck from the plastic piece or hot milk. Tricky business and messy cleanup that microfoam is, and there is no sound quite like the plastic piece shooting off into the metal pitcher and the scream that comes from hot milk in your eyes.

The main things I have learned are:

1. Keep everything perfectly clean and descale monthly.
2. Leave the fancy latte art to the barristas.
3. Practice makes perfect.
4. If you steam the milk first, then pull the shots. the milk settles down into a nice foam.
5. Keep a rag close to the operation.
6. Don't take it personally if your wife and kids laugh at you.

[germantown rob]

Originally Posted by floydpink

1. Keep everything perfectly clean and descale monthly.

Really? Is your water that hard that you need to do this?
I choose not to use bottled water but with a brita filter that gets used only for 3 weeks before going to just drinking water my water comes down to where I should need to only descale 1 a year. A true descale cleaning is a PIA so if I had to do it 1 a month I would switch to buying softer water.

[Mister Moo]

Originally Posted by germantown rob

...By the second gallon I wasn't burning myself at all and the hot milk didn't have skin... ...the burns have healed nicely.

Hot cappa milk has YOUR skin on top? Keep a tube of aloe vera in the kitchen.

Oscar steam gets easy with practice. I recall removing cooked-on spatters of boiled scalded milk from the machine, floor, counter, clothes, walls, stove, eyeglasses and ceiling. With a small pitcher for one drink I maybe use half the pressure to stretch it out to microfoam over 15-seconds; to slow time down start with steel pitcher/milk chilled, direct from fridge or freezer. If you don't bother with a thermometer figure when the pitcher becomes too hot to hold barehanded you've hit about 130*F - time is getting short when you can't barehand the pitcher, right? And your nose tells the rest.

I pull an electrical lead on mine when descaling and, after soaking, pump what little crud there is out thru the wand. I have well water and a 5-mic filter - tastes great and doesn't leave much in the boiler during 1/annual descale. DO remove the tip before pumping the boiler out that way.

DO change the dispersion screen screw out with a phillips, torx or (preferably) allen drive machine screw and DEFINITELY clean the screen and brass heat sink regularly or you will have bitter/skunky espresso. Treat the dispersion screw threads with a light swipe of Vaseline before reinstalling it and only loosen it when the machine is cold. Backflush slowly/regularly with a spoonful or Urnex in the blank basket.

[germantown rob]

Originally Posted by Mister Moo

Hot cappa milk has YOUR skin on top? Keep a tube of aloe vera in the kitchen.

Not my skin, I don't think it was, but the skin milk gets when burned.

I have the whole aloe vera plant in my kitchen. I have a knack for burning myself so I cut some off and tape it on the burn(s) as needed.

Thanks for the info on the dispersion screen. Is not taking the screw out hot for me or is it bad for the threads?
I tried some water out of the group head after a bunch of shots where pulled and the machine had sat for a while, very nasty stuff and brown. I like to backflush after shots if I know I won't be having another for a while, it is amazing what flows out each time. How often do you backflush with detergent?