Beetles help

[Raralith]

Originally Posted by Lucky_Hippo

Question for the experts:
I know freezing kills off the little buggers that have hatched, but does it kill off the eggs that are dormant? I didn't think it did, so hypothetically speaking even if you freeze all incomming shipments you still have the potential for a beetle outbreak if conditions arise, correct?

No, freezing does not kill off dormant eggs. I even read a post somewhere (forgot where otherwise I would like it) of someone freezing a set, and microwaving a different set of cigars, letting them sit out in the sun and they still hatched. So yes, you can freeze to ensure that the shipment sent to you will have no living beetles if shipping conditions were not good, but if your own storage conditions can cause a beetle outbreak too.

I'm with Darrel on this though, just smoke them and don't bother exchanging them. Beetles happen when in transit, not from the distributor who have tempeture and RH covered. You may get some free cigars if you persisted but why mooch when it's not their fault? Person choice there.

[Tio Gato]

It's my understanding is that freezing will kill the eggs as long as you can get the temp low enough. I think 10 to 20 below zero is what is needed. If I can find where I read this I will post a link. Unfortunately most home refrigerators can't get that low. Usually only commercial grades can. A lot of cigars have eggs in them, but they don't hatch because the ideal conditions have not occurred. Eggs hatch above 70 F. Keep them below that and you should be OK.
You should absolutely contact the vendor and let them know. Their response will be a great indication of whether they deserve your business or not.
Best of luck!

[hotreds]

Originally Posted by Tio Gato

It's my understanding is that freezing will kill the eggs as long as you can get the temp low enough. I think 10 to 20 below zero is what is needed. If I can find where I read this I will post a link. Unfortunately most home refrigerators can't get that low. Usually only commercial grades can. A lot of cigars have eggs in them, but they don't hatch because the ideal conditions have not occurred. Eggs hatch above 70 F. Keep them below that and you should be OK.
You should absolutely contact the vendor and let them know. Their response will be a great indication of whether they deserve your business or not.
Best of luck!

Correct- home freezers don't get cold enough to kill the eggs. Good luck to you- what an unpleasant sight!

Originally Posted by hotreds

Correct- home freezers don't get cold enough to kill the eggs. Good luck to you- what an unpleasant sight!

The average temperature of a household freezer is between -12 and -18 degrees Celsius which is more than enough for 100% mortality of all life cycles of tobacco beetles based on the study.

Originally Posted by SilverFox

The average temperature of a household freezer is between -12 and -18 degrees Celsius which is more than enough for 100% mortality of all life cycles of tobacco beetles based on the study.

Where did you buy the freezer Shawn? Local appliance store or large warehouse store?

Originally Posted by Raralith

No, freezing does not kill off dormant eggs. I even read a post somewhere (forgot where otherwise I would like it) of someone freezing a set, and microwaving a different set of cigars, letting them sit out in the sun and they still hatched. So yes, you can freeze to ensure that the shipment sent to you will have no living beetles if shipping conditions were not good, but if your own storage conditions can cause a beetle outbreak too.

I'm with Darrel on this though, just smoke them and don't bother exchanging them. Beetles happen when in transit, not from the distributor who have tempeture and RH covered. You may get some free cigars if you persisted but why mooch when it's not their fault? Person choice there.

This is not correct, freezing does in fact kill off dormant eggs, larvae, pupai, and full grown beetles.

There is an extensive study done on this, I have a copy of the white paper if you would like to read it. Also I posted the link above.

[Raralith]

Originally Posted by SilverFox

This is not correct, freezing does in fact kill off dormant eggs, larvae, pupai, and full grown beetles.

There is an extensive study done on this, I have a copy of the white paper if you would like to read it. Also I posted the link above.

Sure, I'd like to see this. The post you made is just your procedure, but I did you take any cigars and leave it in your car for a week at 100 F and see if anything hatched? Not that I could see.

The Cuban government freezes their cigars too, and you can definately get eggs from CC's so I highly highly highly doubt that freezing would kill all eggs. Fortunately, I've got a way to test this, and am willing to so you'll see something shortly. I've also heard a lot, but no real test to back any of it up.

Originally Posted by Raralith

Sure, I'd like to see this. The post you made is just your procedure, but I did you take any cigars and leave it in your car for a week at 100 F and see if anything hatched? Not that I could see.

The Cuban government freezes their cigars too, and you can definately get eggs from CC's so I highly highly highly doubt that freezing would kill all eggs. Fortunately, I've got a way to test this, and am willing to so you'll see something shortly. I've also heard a lot, but no real test to back any of it up.

The study is located here.

http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/...41_87/_article

Feel free to read at your leisure.

My thread is the procedure as well as excerpts of the empirical evidence as provided in the study, not just my procedure as you so kindly note.

Leaving a cigar in a car for a week is hardly a controlled study.

I have first hand experience with Beetles in 2 cases. Freezing corrected both instances to assume that all I had was one live beetle and no other eggs or other issues would put at risk my entire collection and I am not willing to risk 1,800 cigars on a maybe.

I have had this argument many times and only provide the scientific study that was undertaken as support plus my own personal experience, not the "I read it somewhere in a thread but can't remember" anecdote.

As for freezing at the source I have noted that as well here is the quote from that thread.

One of the first things to understand is that although many producers including cubans may flash freeze their cigars that is only one point on the stop to your humidor. Also cigars are very insulative and given that we do not fully know the quality control of the producer there is risk that eggs are not killed. In addition there are points along the way that beetles can be introduced, secondary wholesaler, vendor, or sadly that fellow BOTL or SOTL that so kindly bombed you are sold you a few sticks.

In addition although not first hand knowledge, someone I trust and is a very knowledgeable BOTL has gone to Cuba on many occasions and has noted that freezing although in place is not the standard.

If you don't agree with the study or me that is fine but to make a categorical statement to someones request based on heresay doesn't seem like the best advice.

Either way I respect that in your opinion freezing will not work, it is not my opinion but that is the great thing about an opinion it is your right to have one as is it mine.

[sepp]

Here is a link to the full article:

http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/aez/41/1/87/_pdf

it is important to note that the exposure time changes with the depth of tempurature drop.

to eliminate beetles in any stage of development they must be exposed to the following temperatures at the stipulated minimum times:

Temperature (C/F) -> Min time (Hours)
-20C/- 4F -> 1 hrs
-15C/+ 5F -> 6
-10C/+14F -> 24
- 5C/+23F -> 504
+0C/+32F -> 1,176
+5C/+41F -> 1,680

Note that additional time is required to ensure that the temperature has dropped to such levels at the core of the cigars.

Leave not doubt, freeze and kill the little bastards!