How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post

Of all the reports written about beetles and what to do, this was by far the best and most informative. Outstanding job! My question is this...since I have a walk-in humidor crammed full of smokes (dont ask how many) and never have frozen one of them, am I too late to start the freezing process. Not only is this a hobby that I love, but, it is worth a lot of $$$ to be destroyed by these little beasties (Padron pic). Any info would be appreciated.

[wayner123]

Originally Posted by ylo2na

Of all the reports written about beetles and what to do, this was by far the best and most informative. Outstanding job! My question is this...since I have a walk-in humidor crammed full of smokes (dont ask how many) and never have frozen one of them, am I too late to start the freezing process. Not only is this a hobby that I love, but, it is worth a lot of $$$ to be destroyed by these little beasties (Padron pic). Any info would be appreciated.

It's never too late, imo. But it will be tedious for you to do it with that many smokes. A simpler option might be to get the beetle traps that are sold at some places. From what I have read they work like a charm. However, there is still debate on whether these cause the beetles to hatch in order to get to them, instead of staying dormant.

If you have some sort of large freezer (meat locker, etc) then it might not be that tedious to do.

[T.G]

Originally Posted by wayner123

A simpler option might be to get the beetle traps that are sold at some places. From what I have read they work like a charm. However, there is still debate on whether these cause the beetles to hatch in order to get to them, instead of staying dormant.

That is completely illogical... actually, it's impossible. It's not like you or I waking up out of slumber because we smell bacon cooking. In the case of an egg, there simply is nothing there that can smell the pheromone trap because there is no lifeform there, all that exists at that point is the genetic code and proteins etc to begin formation into a lifeform. An egg can't smell and instinctively begin an incubation process that is temperature based.

As for pheromone traps, their use is widely misunderstood. While they are typically used in cigar factories and other tobacco processing facilities, they are not put there to control problems, but rather to give a clear indication of when the factory might have a problem. When a female is caught, the typical proactive reaction is to go forward with the assumption that there are 100 or so eggs out there in some part of the factory and one must handle the situation appropriately.

The last thing you want to be doing is finding beetles in the traps - it means that some more front line control measure is failing.


ylo2na, To be as close to totally safe as can be, your best bet is to buy a trunk freezer. Doesn't have to be a really big one, you can get a $100 one at wal-mart or target etc and freeze in batches, just remember to keep the freeze treated cigars physically isolated from the not-yet-freeze processed stock.

Also, at 64F constant, according to Dr. Debora Trock (CA Academy of Science), Dr. Michael Rust (Professor of Entomology, UC Riverside), all eggs die within 6 weeks. At less than 62F, previously incubated eggs can't hatch. And finally, beetles have to fly to mate, and at temps less than 71.5F, the won't develop wings, ending the chain of lifecycles. BUT, eggs will still incubate, larvae will still hatch and eat, and eat, and eat, and pupate into adults before dying off due to old age, so damage to cigars can still occur at the larval stage.

Is your walk-in humidor air conditioned in such a manner that you can separately control it's temperature? Is it possible and economically feasible to take advantage of the cooler winter months and just chill the walk-in down to 60F for 8 weeks?

[wayner123]

Originally Posted by T.G

That is completely illogical... actually, it's impossible. It's not like you or I waking up out of slumber because we smell bacon cooking. In the case of an egg, there simply is nothing there that can smell the pheromone trap because there is no lifeform there, all that exists at that point is the genetic code and proteins etc to begin formation into a lifeform. An egg can't smell and instinctively begin an incubation process that is temperature based.

As for pheromone traps, their use is widely misunderstood. While they are typically used in cigar factories and other tobacco processing facilities, they are not put there to control problems, but rather to give a clear indication of when the factory might have a problem. When a female is caught, the typical proactive reaction is to go forward with the assumption that there are 100 or so eggs out there in some part of the factory and one must handle the situation appropriately.

The last thing you want to be doing is finding beetles in the traps - it means that some more front line control measure is failing.


ylo2na, To be as close to totally safe as can be, your best bet is to buy a trunk freezer. Doesn't have to be a really big one, you can get a $100 one at wal-mart or target etc and freeze in batches, just remember to keep the freeze treated cigars physically isolated from the not-yet-freeze processed stock.

Also, at 64F constant, according to Dr. Debora Trock (CA Academy of Science), Dr. Michael Rust (Professor of Entomology, UC Riverside), all eggs die within 6 weeks. At less than 62F, previously incubated eggs can't hatch. And finally, beetles have to fly to mate, and at temps less than 71.5F, the won't develop wings, ending the chain of lifecycles. BUT, eggs will still incubate, larvae will still hatch and eat, and eat, and eat, and pupate into adults before dying off due to old age, so damage to cigars can still occur at the larval stage.

Is your walk-in humidor air conditioned in such a manner that you can separately control it's temperature? Is it possible and economically feasible to take advantage of the cooler winter months and just chill the walk-in down to 60F for 8 weeks?

Like I said, "there is still debate" about how exactly they do so.

You have a further depth of knowledge about the tobacco industry than me. There have been a good number of B&M's that swear by these (walk-ins) and that is where I make the connection. But B&M's also talk smack about a wide variety of other things too. Have you personally used or experimented with these traps?? I would appreciate your insight.

On the point about temperature, I have certain references ( I will need to be on my work comp to find them) that show beetles flying around at 65 deg. However, that may be the exception and not the rule.

[T.G]

Originally Posted by wayner123

Like I said, "there is still debate" about how exactly they do so.

You have a further depth of knowledge about the tobacco industry than me. There have been a good number of B&M's that swear by these (walk-ins) and that is where I make the connection. But B&M's also talk smack about a wide variety of other things too. Have you personally used or experimented with these traps?? I would appreciate your insight.

On the point about temperature, I have certain references ( I will need to be on my work comp to find them) that show beetles flying around at 65 deg. However, that may be the exception and not the rule.

Most B&M's also often swear that the patches of fuzzy stuff found on some of their cigars is plume.

Take a step back and think about it Wayne, how does a trap that operates by emitting pheromones (sex scents - this is an animals way of biologically saying "I'm ready to mate") to attract beetles of the opposite sex and then capture them, somehow trigger a temperature based incubation in an egg that has no capability of smell or ability to mate even if it could process a pheromone scent? Doesn't happen. Can't happen. Jr High school level biology classes cover this.

I'd say the B&Ms need to look at how they are operating their HVAC systems instead of pointing the finger at impossibilities that they don't seem to understand. Might as well just blame the guy across the street for painting his building whatever color he chose, that makes about as much sense as their trap theories.

I have a little bit of experience with some of the traps, but I don't feel that is really anything special or even necessary for this conversation, I'm not a pest control expert, or research scientist, or biologist (or whatever the field is called where you specialize in insects) . They are simply jumping to illogical conclusions. One shouldn't need any experience to see the disconnect - simply understanding that the traps are pheromone based, and knowing what pheromones are, and that incubation of an egg is a temperature based process and a rudimentary understanding of the beetle's lifecycle is all anyone should need to see how the debate is invalid and an impossible occurrence. Just basic understanding should be sufficient.

Maybe the part about wings was a bit unclear, that wasn't about what temps they can fly at, I'm sure they can fly at 65F. It's that when they undergo chrysalis and pupate into an adult, if the temps are continuously lower during that period, according to that research, they won't develop wings and therefore can't fly and can't mate.

[wayner123]

Originally Posted by T.G

Most B&M's also often swear that the patches of fuzzy stuff found on some of their cigars is plume.

Take a step back and think about it Wayne, how does a trap that operates by emitting pheromones (sex scents - this is an animals way of biologically saying "I'm ready to mate") to attract beetles of the opposite sex and then capture them, somehow trigger a temperature based incubation in an egg that has no capability of smell or ability to mate even if it could process a pheromone scent? Doesn't happen. Can't happen. Jr High school level biology classes cover this.

I'd say the B&Ms need to look at how they are operating their HVAC systems instead of pointing the finger at impossibilities that they don't seem to understand. Might as well just blame the guy across the street for painting his building whatever color he chose, that makes about as much sense as their trap theories.

I have a little bit of experience with some of the traps, but I don't feel that is really anything special or even necessary for this conversation, I'm not a pest control expert, or research scientist, or biologist (or whatever the field is called where you specialize in insects) . They are simply jumping to illogical conclusions. One shouldn't need any experience to see the disconnect - simply understanding that the traps are pheromone based, and knowing what pheromones are, and that incubation of an egg is a temperature based process and a rudimentary understanding of the beetle's lifecycle is all anyone should need to see how the debate is invalid and an impossible occurrence. Just basic understanding should be sufficient.

Maybe the part about wings was a bit unclear, that wasn't about what temps they can fly at, I'm sure they can fly at 65F. It's that when they undergo chrysalis and pupate into an adult, if the temps are continuously lower during that period, according to that research, they won't develop wings and therefore can't fly and can't mate.

Thank you for the write up on the trap debate.

Maybe I wasn't clear either. The temp of 63 (65 was where they raised it and still found them flying) degrees was kept constant. This was from a report that showed beetles may be evolving with temperature resistance.

[T.G]

Originally Posted by wayner123

Thank you for the write up on the trap debate.

Maybe I wasn't clear either. The temp of 63 (65 was where they raised it and still found them flying) degrees was kept constant. This was from a report that showed beetles may be evolving with temperature resistance.

Very interesting and worrisome. If you can find the link to that report, I'd very much appreciate it so I can read the report.