Official SEC Football Thread 2011

[OLS]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Pray tell, where was that, "culture" prior to Nick Saban becoming the head coach at Alabama (or LSU for that matter)?

Odd that you would highlight those two teams, and especially LSU. LSU and Bama have had one
thing without a doubt for WELL over a century, and that is that no matter how bad the teams were losing,
they never failed to sell out their venues. In LA there IS a culture. Not only do we compete on very
even turf against FL and TX for best football players in the country, but our fans never give up.
The Saints were, as Howard Cosell once put it on Monday Night Football as I sat and watched,
the 'galvanized garbage can of the N--F--L...", and their fans NEVER gave up being behind the team.
Even the AINTS bagheads displayed their bags from fairly good seats in the dome.
You can't win a football culture argument in Louisiana. I will let the Crimson Elephants defend their own
team, because they don't listen to me anyway.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by OLS

Odd that you would highlight those two teams, and especially LSU. LSU and Bama have had one
thing without a doubt for WELL over a century, and that is that no matter how bad the teams were losing,
they never failed to sell out their venues. In LA there IS a culture. Not only do we compete on very
even turf against FL and TX for best football players in the country, but our fans never give up.
The Saints were, as Howard Cosell once put it on Monday Night Football as I sat and watched,
the 'galvanized garbage can of the N--F--L...", and their fans NEVER gave up being behind the team.
Even the AINTS bagheads displayed their bags from fairly good seats in the dome.
You can't win a football culture argument in Louisiana. I will let the Crimson Elephants defend their own
team, because they don't listen to me anyway.

I'm talking about the culture of winning, Brad. Rabid fandom has always run rampant in places that we're discussing. My argument, however, is that this, "culture" doesn't manifest itself in the win column like ninjavanish put forth, especially in lieu of a good/great coach (because with good coaches come good recruits).

Originally Posted by ninjavanish

For the SEC, it's a chance to prove (or further prove) that it's perhaps not the coaches that make the difference, but our culture.

[Powers]

Originally Posted by Stephen

I'm talking about the culture of winning, Brad. Rabid fandom has always run rampant in places that we're discussing. My argument, however, is that this, "culture" doesn't manifest itself in the win column like ninjavanish put forth, especially in lieu of a good/great coach (because with good coaches come good recruits).

I think what Ninjavanish perhaps is arguing, and that I would as well, is that the culture of the SEC is directly correlated to schools getting good coaches, which then bring in good recruits and win. It is the culture of SEC schools and their fans to set such high standards and demands that a coaching carosel ensues into a winner is found.
Take Arkansas, Florida and South Carolina for example. They each have had a long history of mediocrity at some point in their program's past. Yet the culture of football in these regions still demanded better play/coaching until they stumbled upon or hired one.
This doesn't stem originally from a tradition of winning, but from something more intrinsic. Once these schools have a taste of winning, however, then you get even higher expectations.

For what it's worth, thats how I perceive how SEC culture shapes programs

[ninjavanish]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Framed within the context of your statement, I am talking about culture = victories and/or Championships. Sure, the dyed-in-the-wool fanbases go back generations. The winning, however, doesn't happen until the program acquires a top flight coach that in turn brings in top flight talent. How many times have we seen this happen over the last 15 years in college football? USC was floundering before Carroll, Oklahoma before Stoops, Texas before Brown, LSU and Alabama before Saban.

Originally Posted by Stephen

I'm talking about the culture of winning, Brad. Rabid fandom has always run rampant in places that we're discussing. My argument, however, is that this, "culture" doesn't manifest itself in the win column like ninjavanish put forth, especially in lieu of a good/great coach (because with good coaches come good recruits).

Stephen, it seems your argument preculdes itself. Because without the support of "dyed-in-the-wool fanbases", alumni, and monetary boosters, no such a top flight coach would employed (or employed for long) by a school and therefore the top flight talent you speak of would not follow as you detailed. I'm sorry my friend, but this sport starts with the support of the fans, and it is from those basic building blocks that championship teams are born. Ticket sales, donations and booster money are what draw coaches, top flight players, and championships. All pieces of the puzzle are important and it takes "the perfect storm", if you will, of all of them at once: broad fanbase, talented coaches, and talented players to cultivate a championship. But no piece is more integral to that equation as the culture of football within a given fanbase. Again, I think that you would be fooling yourself to think that the culture of football is predicated by the arrival of ANY coach ANYwhere. The flames of support may be fanned so to speak, but regardless, the fire comes from the so-called "rabid fandom". It is predicated on the fans supporting football. The arrival of a great coach or a top flight player or a championship is the direct result of the football culture of the region/area of interest. A coach may inspire a fanbase with great wins, and great players may endear themselves with memorable plays and performances, but they are all lost without the fans.

In each of the schools you mentioned above, it was not some invisible force that propelled those schools to hire great coaches. It was the desire in the fanbase (born through their football culture) to see the once great teams return to greatness.

[ninjavanish]

Originally Posted by ninjavanish

Stephen, it seems your argument preculdes itself. Because without the support of "dyed-in-the-wool fanbases", alumni, and monetary boosters, no such a top flight coach would employed (or employed for long) by a school and therefore the top flight talent you speak of would not follow as you detailed. I'm sorry my friend, but this sport starts with the support of the fans, and it is from those basic building blocks that championship teams are born. Ticket sales, donations and booster money are what draw coaches, top flight players, and championships. All pieces of the puzzle are important and it takes "the perfect storm", if you will, of all of them at once: broad fanbase, talented coaches, and talented players to cultivate a championship. But no piece is more integral to that equation as the culture of football within a given fanbase. Again, I think that you would be fooling yourself to think that the culture of football is predicated by the arrival of ANY coach ANYwhere. The flames of support may be fanned so to speak, but regardless, the fire comes from the so-called "rabid fandom". It is predicated on the fans supporting football. The arrival of a great coach or a top flight player or a championship is the direct result of the football culture of the region/area of interest. A coach may inspire a fanbase with great wins, and great players may endear themselves with memorable plays and performances, but they are all lost without the fans.

In each of the schools you mentioned above, it was not some invisible force that propelled those schools to hire great coaches. It was the desire in the fanbase (born through their football culture) to see the once great teams return to greatness.

Wow, reading over this post again later, IT IS SO REDUNDANT.

Sorry about that.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by ninjavanish

Wow, reading over this post again later, IT IS SO REDUNDANT.

Sorry about that.

You just wanted to make sure I understood.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by ninjavanish

Stephen, it seems your argument preculdes itself. Because without the support of "dyed-in-the-wool fanbases", alumni, and monetary boosters, no such a top flight coach would employed (or employed for long) by a school and therefore the top flight talent you speak of would not follow as you detailed. I'm sorry my friend, but this sport starts with the support of the fans, and it is from those basic building blocks that championship teams are born. Ticket sales, donations and booster money are what draw coaches, top flight players, and championships.

You speak as though these are unique to the South. Texas, Notre Dame and Ohio St. all have way more money at their disposal than any SEC school and I'd wager that none have as big a following as Notre Dame. Yet until last year Notre Dame had not so much as a bowl victory in over 15 years. I doubt it's because the fans didn't care.

Originally Posted by ninjavanish

All pieces of the puzzle are important and it takes "the perfect storm", if you will, of all of them at once: broad fanbase, talented coaches, and talented players to cultivate a championship. But no piece is more integral to that equation as the culture of football within a given fanbase. Again, I think that you would be fooling yourself to think that the culture of football is predicated by the arrival of ANY coach ANYwhere. The flames of support may be fanned so to speak, but regardless, the fire comes from the so-called "rabid fandom". It is predicated on the fans supporting football. The arrival of a great coach or a top flight player or a championship is the direct result of the football culture of the region/area of interest. A coach may inspire a fanbase with great wins, and great players may endear themselves with memorable plays and performances, but they are all lost without the fans.

Nowhere did I mitigate fan support. But you could hope, wish, root and pray your little heart out for your team to do well, but if they don't have the coaching and players, it's a moot point. Is it a symbiotic relationship? Sure. Universities need money from fans to hire decent coaches, have nice stadiums and equipment to help recruit top players, etc. But at the end of the day, it's arrogance to think that the SEC is on it's current run because they have better fans. So, to use your logic, the previous three decades (70's, 80's and 90's) the Big 10, Pac-10, BigXIII/BigXII just had better fans than the SEC, that's why they won the vast majority of the National Titles during that span?

Originally Posted by ninjavanish

In each of the schools you mentioned above, it was not some invisible force that propelled those schools to hire great coaches. It was the desire in the fanbase (born through their football culture) to see the once great teams return to greatness.

And yet, they're not propelled to greatness without those coaches (and the talent that follows coaches), as fervent as the fanbase may be. It's an insult to fanbases around the country to somehow think that one of the main reasons the SEC has won the last five (soon to be six) BCS Championships is because you're better fans. It flies in the face of obvious recruiting advantages the South has and gives credence where it's not due.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Stephen

So, to use your logic, the previous three decades (70's, 80's and 90's) the Big 10, Pac-10, BigXIII/BigXII just had better fans than the SEC, that's why they won the vast majority of the National Titles during that span?

Meant Big VIII/Big XII, but I'm sure you guys knew that.