NFL

Starscream · 03-14-2011, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chippewastud79

81 home games vs. 10 home games

But that means that many people are watching.

chippewastud79 · 03-14-2011, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starscream

But that means that many people are watching.

Most NFL games are sold out and teams have a list for season tickets about a mile long. Baseball games rarely sell out, outside of rivalry weekends. Plus you can get to a MLB game for around $5-15. Not sure of any NFL teams who offer $5 tickets, maybe the Panthers and Jaguars I suppose. Try getting a ticket to a Steelers game vs. trying to get a ticket to a Pirates game, but of course you have 81 games to choose from for the baseball game.

Starscream · 03-14-2011, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chippewastud79

Most NFL games are sold out and teams have a list for season tickets about a mile long. Baseball games rarely sell out, outside of rivalry weekends. Plus you can get to a MLB game for around $5-15. Not sure of any NFL teams who offer $5 tickets, maybe the Panthers and Jaguars I suppose. Try getting a ticket to a Steelers game vs. trying to get a ticket to a Pirates game, but of course you have 81 games to choose from for the baseball game.

And if baseball shortened its season, then they would have more sellouts. It would suck to shorten it up to only 16 games a year though.

Starscream · 03-14-2011, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chippewastud79

Plus you can get to a MLB game for around $5-15.

Scalper tickets, yes. Normal admission, no. Not for good seats anyway. Yankee tickets are outrageous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

Not exactly, that means many people have an opportunity to watch. When you have 81 home games and can't even draw 5000 a night (not even going to mention TV viewership, or lack thereof), that speaks volumes.

TV viewership is not as big as NFL agreed, but they have a decent audience. FOX wouldn't be competing to televise their games if there was no audience.

chippewastud79 · 03-14-2011, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starscream

Scalper tickets, yes. Normal admission, no. Not for good seats anyway. Yankee tickets are outrageous.

You can buy bleacher seats at most venues for under $10 face value, which for my money are better than sitting in the last row in any football stadium for $40+. I am a bigger football fan than anything, but a sports fan no doubt. For my money, I would rather take a family of 4 to a baseball game for around $50-75 with some snacks and beverages than a football game where you would spend more than that much on 2 tickets.

Starscream · 03-14-2011, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chippewastud79

You can buy bleacher seats at most venues for under $10 face value, which for my money are better than sitting in the last row in any football stadium for $40+. I am a bigger football fan than anything, but a sports fan no doubt. For my money, I would rather take a family of 4 to a baseball game for around $50-75 with some snacks and beverages than a football game where you would spend more than that much on 2 tickets.

Which is a good thing for baseball IMHO.

chippewastud79 · 03-14-2011, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starscream

Which is a good thing for baseball IMHO.

I agree, it is 'America's Pastime' and continues to be the best 'value' in pro sports. It is very accessible to even the smallest of fans. It makes it easier for teams to connect with their fanbase when you can get a kid into a game for $5 and he has the chance to see a pro-athlete that close and could take home a foul ball or something similar. At NBA and NFL games you likely leave with an empty wallet.

chippewastud79 · 03-14-2011, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starscream

And if baseball shortened its season, then they would have more sellouts. It would suck to shorten it up to only 16 games a year though.

Agreed. Baseball has the advantage of long seasons (I think it is still about 30-60 games too long) but you won't see it shortened ever. Late season games, particularly between non-contenders are a drain and players (much less fans) don't even bother to show up. Who watches Pirates' series in late September?

chippewastud79 · 03-14-2011, 10:21 AM

Of course there are many other factors to why baseball players demand so much money, but the teams have much more revenue coming in because of the size of the season and revenue sharing to draw from. Some teams spend the money, some put it in their pocket. The same could be said for NFL teams and NBA teams alike.

I don't think the NFL is going to alienate their fans like the NHL did during their lockout and lose a majority of their television contracts and young fan base. The NHL does put a better product on the ice now, but no one can watch it with most games being on Versus or OLN. The NHL has lost a fan base purely because they are no longer as accessible, the NFL will not lose that. But I digress.

Stephen · 03-14-2011, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starscream

But that means that many people are watching.

Not exactly, that means many people have an opportunity to watch. When you have 81 home games and can't even draw 5000 a night (not even going to mention TV viewership, or lack thereof), that speaks volumes.

VirtualSmitty · 03-14-2011, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

Not exactly, that means many people have an opportunity to watch. When you have 81 home games and can't even draw 5000 a night (not even going to mention TV viewership, or lack thereof), that speaks volumes.

Which isn't a problem for most teams. What's funny is that the teams that are drawing bad crowds have good teams

You can't compare viewer ship or attendance between baseball and football. The way in which their season and playoffs are structured is to different. And plenty of people are watching baseball, buying merchandise, and going to games. Look how much more baseball players make than footballs on average, pretty impressive numbers. Even the baseball minimum salary is much larger

Starscream · 03-14-2011, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

Which isn't a problem for most teams. What's funny is that the teams that are drawing bad crowds have good teams

You can't compare viewer ship or attendance between baseball and football. The way in which their season and playoffs are structured is to different. And plenty of people are watching baseball, buying merchandise, and going to games. Look how much more baseball players make than footballs on average, pretty impressive numbers. Even the baseball minimum salary is much larger

Well said.

chippewastud79 · 03-14-2011, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

Which isn't a problem for most teams. What's funny is that the teams that are drawing bad crowds have good teams

You can't compare viewer ship or attendance between baseball and football. The way in which their season and playoffs are structured is to different. And plenty of people are watching baseball, buying merchandise, and going to games. Look how much more baseball players make than footballs on average, pretty impressive numbers. Even the baseball minimum salary is much larger

Bad teams fill their stadiums (Cubs) all the time. But the same is even more true for the NFL. Even the Browns and Raiders find a way to put butts in seats on a regular basis.

The average salaries are staggering and its amazing that the sport that has the largest roster size, largest risk for injury, such a large viewership and fanbase and shortest careers has such a small payroll comparative to the NBA and MLB.

Stephen · 03-14-2011, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

Which isn't a problem for most teams. What's funny is that the teams that are drawing bad crowds have good teams

*cough*Marlins*cough*

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

You can't compare viewer ship or attendance between baseball and football. The way in which their season and playoffs are structured is to different. And plenty of people are watching baseball, buying merchandise, and going to games.

There's no direct comparison, but looking for some sort of breakdown I came across this doozy. I'm not saying, nor have I ever said that people aren't watching baseball or going to games. I'm saying that there's a market there for a lot more people to watch baseball, attend games and buy merchandise, but because of the economics of baseball in its current format, restricts that untapped market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

Look how much more baseball players make than footballs on average, pretty impressive numbers. Even the baseball minimum salary is much larger

That's because football rosters are twice the size of football rosters. I'd counter that the top 25 paid players on each NFL squad would be a higher average than the average salary of an MLB player, but it doesn't add anything to the discussion so I'll leave well enough alone...

chippewastud79 · 03-14-2011, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

That's because football rosters are twice the size of football rosters. I'd counter that the top 25 paid players on each NFL squad would be a higher average than the average salary of an MLB player, but it doesn't add anything to the discussion so I'll leave well enough alone...

You'd be surprised, after the top 10 guys the money falls off pretty fast. Elite players compared to elite players and its not even close. Even situational relievers and pinch hitters make significantly more than players who play significant rolls on NFL rosters.

VirtualSmitty · 03-14-2011, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

*cough*Marlins*cough*

There's no direct comparison, but looking for some sort of breakdown I came across this doozy. I'm not saying, nor have I ever said that people aren't watching baseball or going to games. I'm saying that there's a market there for a lot more people to watch baseball, attend games and buy merchandise, but because of the economics of baseball in its current format, restricts that untapped market.

That's because football rosters are twice the size of football rosters. I'd counter that the top 25 paid players on each NFL squad would be a higher average than the average salary of an MLB player, but it doesn't add anything to the discussion so I'll leave well enough alone...

The Marlins have a good team. In fact they usually are competitive, in a difficult division, so whats your point? It's the best example of team with no fan base thats good.

And your roster argument doesn't stack up. As said above, elite MLB players make much more than their NFL counterparts. Plus, unlike the NFL, there are three tiers of minor leagues players usually go through to get to the big show. A,AA, and AAA all have a full roster of players and coaches, and while they don't make the major league minimum they do earn a decent salary. When you factor in that cost, the operating overhead in terms of payroll is much higher than any NFL team, which just pulls talent straight from college. Plus these days most teams own and operate camps in other countries to scout talent. So the fact that baseball players are so much better compensated is indeed quite impressive when you think about it

Also, the WS ratings only go to show there is comparing television ratings between baseball and football. The superbowl might as well be a holiday, everybody watches regardless of who they root for. Baseball is much more regional, I watch the superbowl for the commercials, but I only caught two games of WS because I didn't care much about either team. If the Yankees and Cubs played in a WS they would blow the superbowl ratings out of the water.

Stephen · 03-14-2011, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

The Marlins have a good team. In fact they usually are competitive, in a difficult division, so whats your point?

You said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

Which isn't a problem for most teams. What's funny is that the teams that are drawing bad crowds have good teams

And I responded:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

*cough*Marlins*cough*

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

And your roster argument doesn't stack up. As said above, elite MLB players make much more than their NFL counterparts.

When did I say otherwise? I simply wondered aloud (or more specifically at the end of a post rhetorically) how the average MLB salary would stack up against the top 25 players of an NFL squad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

Plus, unlike the NFL, there are three tiers of minor leagues players usually go through to get to the big show. A,AA, and AAA all have a full roster of players and coaches, and while they don't make the major league minimum they do earn a decent salary. When you factor in that cost, the operating overhead in terms of payroll is much higher than any NFL team, which just pulls talent straight from college. Plus these days most teams own and operate camps in other countries to scout talent.

Completely irrelevant to a MLB players average salary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

So the fact that baseball players are so much better compensated is indeed quite impressive when you think about it

Not really. But we'll have to agree to disagree.

VirtualSmitty · 03-14-2011, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

You said:

And I responded:

When did I say otherwise? I simply wondered aloud (or more specifically at the end of a post rhetorically) how the average MLB salary would stack up against the top 25 players of an NFL squad.

Completely irrelevant to a MLB players average salary.

Not really. But we'll have to agree to disagree.

I thought you were implying the Marlins were bad. And the minor leagues are relevant as they are part of the MLB. If your not impressed by how well compensated baseball players are based on all the additional overhead MLB teams face that NFLs don't , that's your opinion. But the fact remains that baseball is very profitable, compensates it's players better than the NFL and is thriving despite all the setbacks of the last 20 years.

Stephen · 03-14-2011, 12:23 PM

Just for kicks, I looked up the average starting salary for a MLB player here, and picked a random team (New Orleans Saints; found here) and added up the salaries of the top 25 players. Came to $99.59007 million (only added it up once, could be incorrect). Divided that by 25, and got $3.98 million. I'm positive it's different for different teams, just wanted to throw that out there.

yourchoice · 03-14-2011, 12:21 PM

I'm enjoying the discussion. Very interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualSmitty

If the Yankees and Cubs played in a WS they would blow the superbowl ratings out of the water.

No way. Aside from the Superbowl, I'd guess at least a half dozen other football games (be it regular season, or playoffs - if not more) would beat any World Series game....but definitely the Superbowl.

As for the topic...for a long time I believed that a capitalist structure was better...you should be paid as much someone else thinks your skills are worth.

But...for sports leagues to thrive as a whole, I think some sort of structure is needed. For the NHL to survive, they needed to take drastic measures, and they did. I think the NBA will have to do something similar (I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't play a game next year). The one thing all leagues with a cap have is both a ceiling and a floor. That's what makes a parity driven cap work. Could baseball be improved with a cap like that? Honestly, I think so...and I'm a Phillies fan!

03-14-2011, 10:21 AM	#9
chippewastud79 Fatter than you! Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Larry Location: A little place called home. Posts: 5,397 Trading: (44)	Re: NFL Of course there are many other factors to why baseball players demand so much money, but the teams have much more revenue coming in because of the size of the season and revenue sharing to draw from. Some teams spend the money, some put it in their pocket. The same could be said for NFL teams and NBA teams alike. I don't think the NFL is going to alienate their fans like the NHL did during their lockout and lose a majority of their television contracts and young fan base. The NHL does put a better product on the ice now, but no one can watch it with most games being on Versus or OLN. The NHL has lost a fan base purely because they are no longer as accessible, the NFL will not lose that. But I digress. __________________ If we weren't supposed to eat animals, then how come they're made of meat? You can never have too many cigars, they are like an investment in good times.

03-14-2011, 12:23 PM	#19
Stephen Sultan of Cigars Join Date: Jan 2011 First Name: Stephen Location: Where the Pony Express began and Jesse James ended. Posts: 1,582 Trading: (18)	Re: NFL Just for kicks, I looked up the average starting salary for a MLB player here, and picked a random team (New Orleans Saints; found here) and added up the salaries of the top 25 players. Came to $99.59007 million (only added it up once, could be incorrect). Divided that by 25, and got $3.98 million. I'm positive it's different for different teams, just wanted to throw that out there.