stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet

[Genetic Defect]

I have yet to taste Cali wine that I liked

[ca21455]

Originally Posted by icehog3

I thought it was for the largest part, John.

Absolutely, just be nice to keep it that way.

[SeanGAR]

Originally Posted by Legend

third, there is the placebo effect for the internet buyer. " I got the same stuff cheaper".

That wouldn't be a placebo effect, it would be bias, and it is unclear to me what direction the bias would go.

Normally I'm all for cigar testing on boards, but this, to me, is like designing an experiment to show that the earth is round.

Originally Posted by Legend

Truly riddick to summarily dismiss anothers thoughts as wrong when you have no proof.

Look at his argument again. Most internet shops are expansions from B&Ms. Based on your thesis, you are suggesting that J&R sells different CAO Brazilias online than they do in their NC shop. I dismiss that out of hand because it doesn't pass the smell test, let alone my personal experience.

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

That wouldn't be a placebo effect, it would be bias, and it is unclear to me what direction the bias would go.

Normally I'm all for cigar testing on boards, but this, to me, is like designing an experiment to show that the earth is round.



Look at his argument again. Most internet shops are expansions from B&Ms. Based on your thesis, you are suggesting that J&R sells different CAO Brazilias online than they do in their NC shop. I dismiss that out of hand because it doesn't pass the smell test, let alone my personal experience.

If you look at the original post I acknowledged that the big internet guys were themselves b&m and that their local store would be considered part of the internet store for the purpose of this discussion.

[Kreth]

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

Based on your thesis, you are suggesting that J&R sells different CAO Brazilias online than they do in their NC shop.

*sigh* I hang out here too much. My first thought after reading this was, "JR has a CC shop?"

[SeanGAR]

Originally Posted by Legend

If you look at the original post I acknowledged that the big internet guys were themselves b&m and that their local store would be considered part of the internet store for the purpose of this discussion.

Originally Posted by Legend

3. I understand that all the big internet guys also have b&m. I'll still refer to them as internet stores. They are different.

Emphasis placed by me.

So once a B&M starts selling online, they start getting the second rate cigars? Come on ... your thesis is ridiculous. The cost alone of keeping 2 separate inventories (the good cigars and the bad cigars) would preclude this. Six months makes a huge difference in taste of many cigars and is most likely the source of your preference. This is simpler and more logical than two inventories from what ... all vendors? All of them are conspiring and having two versions of all their cigars? Now that just doesn't pass the laugh test, does it?

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

Emphasis placed by me.

So once a B&M starts selling online, they start getting the second rate cigars? Come on ... your thesis is ridiculous. The cost alone of keeping 2 separate inventories (the good cigars and the bad cigars) would preclude this. Six months makes a huge difference in taste of many cigars and is most likely the source of your preference. This is simpler and more logical than two inventories from what ... all vendors? All of them are conspiring and having two versions of all their cigars? Now that just doesn't pass the laugh test, does it?

You are looking at it much harsher than I intended. I would say that once a guy gets big enough to demand lower prices the makers then will then know when they are making these large batches for them and may not always use the best. Let QA drop a little. Definately not 2nd rate. Just noticeable.

Is aging a possible explination as well? Sure. I'll concede that. Is it the only explination and does it explain everything? No!

To you it seems ridiculous because you're looking at it as a much more severe difference than I mean. And much more sinister. I'm thinking simple business decisions that are easy. No separate stock. These big guys order direct from the factory and the factory knows who their product is being made for.

[Kreth]

I'd be willing to participate, but as I said above, I think you'd have to give some participants 2 B&M sticks or 2 Internet retailer sticks to make it more of a blind study. If everyone knows they have one of each, then they might "manufacture" differences that aren't really there.

[SeanGAR]

Originally Posted by Legend

I'm thinking simple business decisions that are easy. No separate stock. These big guys order direct from the factory and the factory knows who their product is being made for.

Well if the best product went to the best clients (assuming these are B&M), how would they handle that at the factory? By rollers? By changing the cigar formulation?

Too much work and cost to segregate that way.

It just doesn't make sense that a manufacturer would put out anything that would be considered at all inferior in their regular line. That is why seconds abound. I've had seconds that smoked and looked very good. And if CI or any of the big guys found that they were getting inferior cigars because of who they are or their negotiated prices, how long do you think that would last?

DPG gets a huge order from CI for blue labels. You think they change the formulation or rolling to fulfill the order? You think DPG or any other retailer would risk the reputation of their cigars to save a few bucks? I just don't see it, not even a maybe.

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

Well if the best product went to the best clients (assuming these are B&M), how would they handle that at the factory? By rollers? By changing the cigar formulation?

Too much work and cost to segregate that way.

It just doesn't make sense that a manufacturer would put out anything that would be considered at all inferior in their regular line. That is why seconds abound. I've had seconds that smoked and looked very good. And if CI or any of the big guys found that they were getting inferior cigars because of who they are or their negotiated prices, how long do you think that would last?

DPG gets a huge order from CI for blue labels. You think they change the formulation or rolling to fulfill the order? You think DPG or any other retailer would risk the reputation of their cigars to save a few bucks? I just don't see it, not even a maybe.

I could go through how simple it seems to me. But ice already explained parts of it and you don't even see a maybe. So I'll leave it at that and not try to convince you. I mean you're not even willing to entertain the possibility. I'm wasting my time. It becomes an arguement and not a discussion. Not here to argue.

[mithrilG60]

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

Normally I'm all for cigar testing on boards, but this, to me, is like designing an experiment to show that the earth is round.

The experiment would actually be pretty simple, just a basic double-blind study. Take for example 5 testers testing one vitola. A person independent from the testers would buy 2 boxes with roughly the same date stamps, 1 from a B&M and 1 from an online vendor, label them box A and B and give them to a second independent person (the distributor) without letting them know which is which. That second person would then remove the bands and replace them with blanks labeled to match the boxes they've come out and age them for a predetermined length of time in a known constant environment. Each of the testers would receive 10 cigars, 5 from each box, which they would have to smoke (preferably alternating equally between the 2 stocks) and record their impressions of both the smoke and their mood at the time. Once all 10 cigars have been smoked the tester reports their results back to the distributor. Only once all 5 testers have reported back and the distributor has tabulated which, if either, box was preferred does the first person reveal which was the internet box and which was the B&M.

At the end of all that production you'll almost guaranteed to find that the results are the same for each and the perception of a "better" cigar from a B&M/lounge is purely due to the bias induced by the environment and the fact that we are programed to think a more expensive product = better product.

I have been watching this from afar up to now.

Inherently I disagree which is my opinion not a statement of fact but it really makes no sense whatsoever.

That is like saying if I buy my Windex at the local grocer on the corner that I am going to get a superior product than if I ordered it from Costco online that given that the manufacturer knows it is for Costco they will use a slightly inferior and cheaper formula and charge costco less so they can sell it at a lesser price.

It sounds a little absurd when we are talking about window cleaner, yet I believe this is the exact same argument that has been applied.

I cannot see it happening, I see no empirical evidence that it is, and I cannot imagine retailers (online) and consumers tolerating it. In fact I would bet that somewhere in the annals of Fair Trade and Market Laws it is illegal to represent them as the same product if they are in fact not.

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by Big Vito

I have yet to taste Cali wine that I liked

Maybe you should try one to begin with

[TheRiddick]

Legend,

Usually I am not a supporter of legal action, but "theories" like these simply rub me wrong as they should any other business owner, IMO.

Like I said already, you are 2 for 2 so far, some may say you simply repeat things heard elsewhere, some will say it is clearly libel. Actually, any attorney will say it is libel and will easily prove it in court.

Take a look here:
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article...nymous-critics

There are plenty of other examples. Sitting at a keyboard somewhere doesn't give anyone license to mess with someone's business just because he had a "deep thought".

[Da Klugs]

http://www.5min.com/Video/Young-Vin-...eakdance-11490




Hope the Koehler folks don't come a knocking at my door.

[SeanGAR]

Originally Posted by Legend

I mean you're not even willing to entertain the possibility. I'm wasting my time. It becomes an arguement and not a discussion. Not here to argue.

An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition, is it not?

In any case, I do a lot of sensory testing for my job. I realize that you need a lot of samples to have validity in your conclusions. I also realize that there are other possible explanations for the differences that you have observed. I do not doubt at all that you have seen clear preferences for cigars purchased at your B&M compared to online. Why would I? You come here looking for an explanation, which is cool. But you were given the explanation. Age of cigars and possibly humidity of storage.

I will, however, contribute money and time to the effort to design and run the experiment to test your hypothesis; as long as you are willing to accept the results of the experiment, as I am. I am willing to accept that I may be wrong ... I am married after all .

[WildBlueSooner]

I propose this. Take the same stick and give people 4 of the same stick. However they will get them in any combination...could be 2 from online and 2 from B&M, one and three, or 4 from one source and have them rate them and say which they think is which. I can almost guarantee you there will be no trend in either direction.

[SeanGAR]

Originally Posted by WildBlueSooner

I propose this. Take the same stick and give people 4 of the same stick. However they will get them in any combination...could be 2 from online and 2 from B&M, one and three, or 4 from one source and have them rate them and say which they think is which. I can almost guarantee you there will be no trend in either direction.

I don't know how to run the statistics on that type of experimental design. Anybody???

[taltos]

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

I don't know how to run the statistics on that type of experimental design. Anybody???

Can't see any control group there and don't see much experimental design.

[Yazzie]

The Dos Equis in a Bottle I get at the bar tastes far superior than the Dos Equis in a bottle that I buy from the liquor store.....

Sure it does....