The Wine Thread

[TheRiddick]

Moses,

I used to drink with Mike Lawton and his group back in 2001 when I worked in Boston on a contract, do you know them?

And is that cigar bar on Newbury still open? Spent a few hours there on 9/11 when the whole city was in panic mode, hope they are still open.

[mosesbotbol]

Moses,

I used to drink with Mike Lawton and his group back in 2001 when I worked in Boston on a contract, do you know them?

And is that cigar bar on Newbury still open? Spent a few hours there on 9/11 when the whole city was in panic mode, hope they are still open.

I do not know Mike Lawton. What is his group?

Yes, Cigar Masters (http://cigarmasters.com/home.htm) is still in business and they moved the next street down on Boylston St. The smoking bans in Boston has been a salvation to their business; they are busy 7 nights a week.

[TheRiddick]

Good for Cigar Masters, the place was really good on my visits there (years ago). Will make sure to visit on my next trip to Boston, they provided the calmest few hours on 9/11 and I really appreciate that.

Mike Lawton's group is a bunch of locals, they used to participate on Wine Lovers Discussion forum, although I haven't seen them there lately. Met one of the guys last year at a wine event here in SF, looks like they are still drinking together. Mostly an Old World palate group, should be right up your alley :-)) (I am a New World palate, although drink and taste everything to keep up with the wine world and also run probably the best wine group in SF area for the past 10 years).

[mosesbotbol]

The only "wine groups" I participate in is port drinking.

Yup, I am an old world wine drinker, and a necro wine drinker at that. I side with the Brit's about when a wine is mature, lol...

[TheRiddick]

I can tell by the pictures you post. Good for you, drink what your palate wants.

Mike's group used to taste either at his house (outside of Boston proper), or at that Chinese place near turnpike entry in downtown, not sure I remember the place, King Fung? Or something like that, its a dive, but with decent food. And they did not charge us corkage.

[mosesbotbol]

I can tell by the pictures you post. Good for you, drink what your palate wants.

Unfortnately, I can't always drink what my palate wants, or it would be DRC all the time! Stuck with masses, but one can dream.

Been lucky to try a few good wines in my day though.

[TheRiddick]

I've yet to try any DRC, can't afford it. Hopefully, when I do get the chance it will the treat everyone claims it to be (although I am skeptical, been spoiled by some great CA Pinot).

[mosesbotbol]

I've yet to try any DRC, can't afford it.

I tried a '62 La Tache once at my friend's holiday party. Wow! Still had real extract and power. Deep, and an amazing finish. I had like 3 years ago.

[rizzle]

Try the Petite Sirah from Bogle- very good for the price point.
I'll agree with you on that one.

[rizzle]

...Bogle is one of the best QPR labels around, pretty much everything they make is solid and some wines, such as their Petite (already mentioned above) is a great deal, IMO, year in and year out.
...
QPR=??

[landhoney]

QPR=??

Quality (to) Price Ratio. :ze

[rizzle]

Thanks Seth. So a "QPR label" would be considered a value, budget, or everyman's wine I assume.

[landhoney]

Thanks Seth. So a "QPR label" would be considered a value, budget, or everyman's wine I assume.

Yes, with the implied addition that what you are paying for gets you better quality than most bottles of similar price. The quality is better than expected just based on price.

[mosesbotbol]

Thanks Seth. So a "QPR label" would be considered a value, budget, or everyman's wine I assume.


Just a good value for the money... Does not assume an "everyman's wine", as everyone has a different pocketbook.

A million dollar painting for 250K is an excellent QPR, but above most our means ...

[rizzle]

Yes, with the implied addition that what you are paying for gets you better quality than most bottles of similar price. The quality is better than expected just based on price.
Understood.

Just a good value for the money... Does not assume an "everyman's wine", as everyone has a different pocketbook.

A million dollar painting for 250K is an excellent QPR, but above most our means ...
And understood.

[rizzle]

Not a huge champagne guy...but had a bottle of Bernard Bremont Grand Cru a couple of nights ago and I must admit it was very tasty. Cost me like $40 and tasted much better to me than higher priced stuff I've had.

Any of you guys have any input on that one?

[BC-Axeman]

Had a reference to this wine in the cheap wine thread. Check out the alcohol level, it looks like 15.4%, this is almost like a port!
http://130.94.224.229/share/pinot_noir.jpg
You have to be on a list to buy it.

[mosesbotbol]

Had a reference to this wine in the cheap wine thread. Check out the alcohol level, it looks like 15.4%, this is almost like a port!
http://130.94.224.229/share/pinot_noir.jpg
You have to be on a list to buy it.

Not going to age like port. Generally, the high alcohol wines are to chase the high initial scores; with little thought to what they will taste like in 10-20 years. There's not enough acid for the long haul.

High alcohol wines like this are not as food friendly either.

Certainly tragedy to have pinot that high in alcohol; should be against the law!

[BC-Axeman]

I find that high alcohol only means the grapes had a lot of sugar to begin with. This varies by region and picking time. I have heard that in France it is acceptable to add sugar to up the alc. and in hot regions they remove alc. to get a more complete fermentation. For some reason I don't have any wines older than 15 years.:al

[TheRiddick]

I am not sure I would agree some points above. There are many vineyards around, both here and in Europe, where sugars go up and acids do not come down as the fruit ripens on the vine. One needs to wait until acidity comes down to workable levels and this forces winemakers' hands in some cases. Key is still balance and numbers don't mean much when the overall balance works. Or doesn't.

Burgundy has traditionally added sugar to bump up the alcohol, not only Burgundy actually. Yet no Burg-head ever wants to discuss this or admit to it.

What percentage of dry wines is capable of as good an aging as Port? And last I checked, not all Ports have same aging ability.

Best Bordeaux houses use very ripe fruit, same ripeness levels as here, but they also use RO machines to get the alcohol out prior to bottling. They also figured out that to get the mouth feel and flavor they want, that's the game they must play. LLC (Leoville Las Cases) is prime example of that, yet I have not heard one bad review so far.

KB Pinots are what they are, well made wines made for (rather) earlier consumption. They are still too young as a winery to figure out how they age, although owners will also tell you to drink them now if that's how you like them. I've tasted through barrels a good number of times, a few time each vintage, the fruit profile is seriously good, IMO. And the wines are getting better and better with each new vintage, they are dialing in oak programs and winemaking techniques. Alcohol numbers? I do not pay attention unless alcohol is the first thing that hits me when I taste a wine and in KB I do not get that.

Anyone had August West Pinots? Rivers Marie? AP Vin? Curious to hear your notes on those.

[BC-Axeman]

I read an article about "what the winemakers don't want you to to know" a while back. I decided I didn't really want to know it either.
The end product speaks for itself. I'll leave it to he pros to decide the best way to get there.

[mrreindeer]

A couple weeks ago, I took out a client & he introduced me to the world of Orin Swift wines.

http://www.orinswift.com/

He suggested we order the 2005 Papillon. It's a Bordeaux-style blend, very full & jammy with a pretty nifty and unusual label. Also look for the butterfly ("papillon" means butterfly in French) at the bottom of the bottle in the dimple at the bottom of a wine bottle that is called the 'punt'.

The wine was absolutely delicious.

Ruby red with notes of campfire, toast and sweet vanilla. On the palette - wild strawberry, rhubarb, and sassafras. And the finish - 30 plus seconds with an impression of cherry pie.

http://www.orinswift.com/included/images/papillon500x367.jpg

They also make "The Prisoner", also a blend, which I've since had and enjoyed but Papillon is definitely the better of the two, and more costly.

The 2007 "Prisoner" blends the lush berry flavors of Zinfandel, the power and concentration of Cabernet Sauvignon, the dark black fruit of Syrah, the intensity and structure of Petite Sirah, the flesh of Charbono, and a hint of Grenache - all combined for a decadent wine with great complexity.

https://b-21.com/images/orin-swift-prisoner.gif

Orin Swift wines are pretty hard to find but I picked up a few bottles at Whole Foods in Redondo Beach. $50/each if you buy 6 total bottles for the '06 Papillon (the '05 we had in the restaurant is sold out) & $30 for The Prisoner. Considerably more than I normally spend on wine but definitely worth the occasional splurge.

And I've heard if you find these wines, get 'em while you can. They run in limited supplies and once they're out of any given vintage, they're out.

[TheRiddick]

Orin Swift is in every decent wine store you care to name. How many pallets do you need?

[BC-Axeman]

Orin Swift is in every decent wine store you care to name. How many pallets do you need?
It's a good thing for my liver that I can't afford pallets of wine.:al
Or crates of cigars.:ss
Or trophy women. :dr
Or... dang.:(

Life is still good!

[MedicCook]

I have been trying to find a wine I had in Germany made by the Deppisch family for a few years now. I stayed at the Hotel Anker which they also own and the wine they served in their restaurant was great.

[TheRiddick]

I have been trying to find a wine I had in Germany made by the Deppisch family for a few years now. I stayed at the Hotel Anker which they also own and the wine they served in their restaurant was great.

I am guessing a Riesling? Try calling Dee Vine in San Francisco, if they are unable to find the wine for you, then I am guessing it is not imported into USA. They are THE shop for German Riesling.

http://www.dvw.com/

[mosesbotbol]

I have been trying to find a wine I had in Germany made by the Deppisch family for a few years now. I stayed at the Hotel Anker which they also own and the wine they served in their restaurant was great.


Call the hotel and ask them for the name and if they have a US distributor.

[MedicCook]

I am guessing a Riesling? Try calling Dee Vine in San Francisco, if they are unable to find the wine for you, then I am guessing it is not imported into USA. They are THE shop for German Riesling.

http://www.dvw.com/

Call the hotel and ask them for the name and if they have a US distributor.

I sent them an email a few years ago and they were not selling it to the US. What I need to do is take another trip to Germany. :D

[mosesbotbol]

I sent them an email a few years ago and they were not selling it to the US. What I need to do is take another trip to Germany. :D


If you are that hot on this wine, just buy a case and have it shipped. I would suggest doing this after October. There's some big internet wine stores based out of Germany.

[TheRiddick]

Ryan,

As Moses already pointed out there is another option. You need to call Adventures in Wine, they are based here in Bay Area and specialize in importing private purchases. All you have to do is order direct from the German producer, Adventures in Wine will then handle importing paperwork for customs and such. Have no idea if it is worth the effort, money wise, but something you can take a look at.

Try buying a few different bottles of JJ Prum or Dr. Loosen, I am almost sure you may find them at least as good as what you have tasted in Germany and probably better. They are the two producers you can bet money on, year in and year out, and the wines are outstanding in every respect, they age incredibly well to boot.

Do you recall flavor profile of the wine you liked? How much sugar was in it? Or rather, how mcuh did your palate detect?

[mosesbotbol]

Try buying a few different bottles of JJ Prum or Dr. Loosen, I am almost sure you may find them at least as good as what you have tasted in Germany and probably better. They are the two producers you can bet money on, year in and year out, and the wines are outstanding in every respect, they age incredibly well to boot.

Those two are among the best producers. More important is to know what style of Riesling you like; there's a big difference in spectrum.

[mrreindeer]

Orin Swift is in every decent wine store you care to name. How many pallets do you need?

No kiddin? Who knew! I need a lot...

I just can't afford any more!

[e-man67]

Ok, The wife found a wine that she absolutely loves...CakeBread cabernet sauvignon...only problem is it is $90 a bottle...I bought her a bottle of the Cakebread Pinot Nior for $75 for mothers day but holy hell! Is there another manufacture that is comparable and a little more reasonable? :rolleyes:

[ucla695]

Ok, The wife found a wine that she absolutely loves...CakeBread cabernet sauvignon...only problem is it is $90 a bottle...I bought her a bottle of the Cakebread Pinot Nior for $75 for mothers day but holy hell! Is there another manufacture that is comparable and a little more reasonable? :rolleyes:

CakeBread is good stuff. :dr It's the price I don't like. :) Their wine club has bottles at a lower price point, but they get you with the annual cost.

http://www.cakebread.com/clubs/


I'm a fan of Chimney Rock....I can usually find the cab for around $40/bottle.

[JohnnyFlake]

Ok, The wife found a wine that she absolutely loves...CakeBread cabernet sauvignon...only problem is it is $90 a bottle...I bought her a bottle of the Cakebread Pinot Nior for $75 for mothers day but holy hell! Is there another manufacture that is comparable and a little more reasonable? :rolleyes:

I have never tried CakeBread Wine, so I cannot make a comparison, however the name immediately brought to attention another wine that makes a wonderful Cab &, Shiraz. I have not tried their Pinot Noir or any of their white wines yet, but I expect that they will be very good as well. I am referring to "LayerCake". They have a wonderful 2007 Cab that you should let you wife try. It sells in the area of $25 a bottle!

[MedicCook]

If you are that hot on this wine, just buy a case and have it shipped. I would suggest doing this after October. There's some big internet wine stores based out of Germany.

Ryan,

As Moses already pointed out there is another option. You need to call Adventures in Wine, they are based here in Bay Area and specialize in importing private purchases. All you have to do is order direct from the German producer, Adventures in Wine will then handle importing paperwork for customs and such. Have no idea if it is worth the effort, money wise, but something you can take a look at.

Try buying a few different bottles of JJ Prum or Dr. Loosen, I am almost sure you may find them at least as good as what you have tasted in Germany and probably better. They are the two producers you can bet money on, year in and year out, and the wines are outstanding in every respect, they age incredibly well to boot.

Do you recall flavor profile of the wine you liked? How much sugar was in it? Or rather, how mcuh did your palate detect?

Thanks for the tips.

The one thing I remember the most about it was how smooth it was to drink.

[e-man67]

I have never tried CakeBread Wine, so I cannot make a comparison, however the name immediately brought to attention another wine that makes a wonderful Cab &, Shiraz. I have not tried their Pinot Noir or any of their white wines yet, but I expect that they will be very good as well. I am referring to "LayerCake". They have a wonderful 2007 Cab that you should let you wife try. It sells in the area of $25 a bottle!

Thanks for the input! :tu

[TheRiddick]

Ryan,

I am almost sure that if you try one of the two labels, or both, You WILL fall in love. As Moses has pointed out, German Rieslings are made with some sugar to a lot of sugar, although with age all that sugar integrates. Also try Leitz, they are more affordable. But between JJ Prum ( don't confuse with his relative MA Prum) and Dr. Loosen you can't find a bad wine even if you try.
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E-Man,

At $75 for Pinot you have a TON of choices and I can guarantee you will enjoy them much more than that Cakebread. Until Sideways hit the screens, Napa guys looked down at Pinot and didn't consider it wine and I am being serious. They all jumped on the wagon since the movie came out and all I can tell you is that making Pinot and Cab are two completely different processes in all respects. I would know. And it takes a while to learn how to make great Pinot, not just the past 3-4 years when it became "fashionable".

Try Pinots by Loring, Siduri, August West, AP Vin, just off the top of my head, there are many more. All in the $40-50 range and way better than Cakebread. If you feel like spending more, Pisoni is the one to try, in the $60s, but worth every penny IMO.

For a better priced and actually better Cab, IMO, try finding a bottle of Paradigm, should be under $50. Little known, still, but every bit as good as most of the big boys. I think you can order online, although give them a call and see if they are distributed in your state. Another one to try is Meander, a really good wine.

There are just a few high priced Cabs I buy these days, Maybach is one and Pride is another. The rest charge for the "name recognition" for the most part.

[e-man67]

Thanks so much for the input! I will definately give those a try and report back! :tu

[BC-Axeman]

Too bad cabs had fallen out of popularity. Some of the best wines I have ever tasted have been cabs or cab blends. We have a local family winery called Burrell School that has some old cab sauv vineyards and they are consistent with their cabs. I like getting to know the grapes, the harvest, the winemakers and the varietals of the local wineries. If only I kept notes.

[mosesbotbol]

Too bad cabs had fallen out of popularity. Some of the best wines I have ever tasted have been cabs or cab blends.

When did this happen? That is news to me.

[BC-Axeman]

When did this happen? That is news to me.
Right before the Merlot craze (early 80s?), before the Pitite Syrah craze, before the Pinot craze. When will we get back to Zinfandel? What are we on right now? (I'm talking about mass popularity). I don't pay much attention anymore. :D
Anyone remember the "Pink Zinfandel" craze?:r
Maybe it's time for Sherry to come back around.
Honestly, the PN wave passed right under me and I barely noticed. I never saw "Sideways". I don't quite understand the reference, except that Pinot Noir must have been a major part of the plot. David Bruce winery is just up the road from me so I have been drinking lots of good Pinot for a long time.

Cheers *clink*!

[BigCat]

Well I'll be on the front of the line leading the Zinfandel popularity charge. I've been enjoying those for a couple of years now. I didn't know there was a craze in the past. And if I'm not drinking a Zin, I usually gravitate towards a cabernet. I've never gotten into Pinots. I've found them too light bodied, though to be fair I haven't had a lot of them because the ones I have had have not impressed me.

[mosesbotbol]

Pinot Noir is from Burgundy, period! Lot's of places try and some come close, but Burgundy is Burgundy!

[BC-Axeman]

Pinot Noir is from Burgundy, period! Lot's of places try and some come close, but Burgundy is Burgundy!
Burgundy is from Burgundy. Pinot Noir is a plant that grows where it will.

[mosesbotbol]

Burgundy is from Burgundy. Pinot Noir is a plant that grows where it will.

Yes, pinot noir may grow anywhere, even indoors, but that does not mean it's worth anything. Burgundy is the only place that can make Pinot worth drinking and usually at a king's ransom at that.

[mrreindeer]

I'm a fan of Chimney Rock....I can usually find the cab for around $40/bottle.

Good stuff Mike! :tu

Right before the Merlot craze (early 80s?), before the Pitite Syrah craze, before the Pinot craze. When will we get back to Zinfandel? What are we on right now? (I'm talking about mass popularity). I don't pay much attention anymore. :D
Anyone remember the "Pink Zinfandel" craze?:r
Maybe it's time for Sherry to come back around.
Honestly, the PN wave passed right under me and I barely noticed. I never saw "Sideways". I don't quite understand the reference, except that Pinot Noir must have been a major part of the plot. David Bruce winery is just up the road from me so I have been drinking lots of good Pinot for a long time.

Cheers *clink*!

I think we're in Syrah-land right now, or at least I am. I've really enjoyed being in Cab-land, Zin-land & Pinot-land, but I really haven't spent a lot of time in Syrah-land or Petite-Syrah-land and I think I should.

I just bought a bottle of Syrah called 'Sequel' and it was pretty good. Still, I really prefer full, jammy, long finish, smooth reds and I think Syrah & PS are considerably lighter.

As for Zin's, which I love, a decent priced & good Zin is Ridge Vineyard's Lytton Springs. You can usually find it anywhere and on most restaurant's wine lists and even at restaurants, I haven't seen it higher than $60 which ain't bad for a good, nice wine while out to dinner.

[mrreindeer]

Oh, oh, and you should really watch Sideways. It wasn't GREAT but it was a nice little movie in our beautiful & wonderful Santa Barbara Wine Country.

And we just watched BOTTLESHOCK not too long ago.

GREAT, GREAT, GREAT movie about how California wines (which truly are amazing, I disagree with you completely there, Moses; we produce some incredible Pinot's) got on the world map back in the mid-'70's and beat out French wines in their wine competition.

[ucla695]

Oh, oh, and you should really watch Sideways. It wasn't GREAT but it was a nice little movie in our beautiful & wonderful Santa Barbara Wine Country.

And we just watched BOTTLESHOCK not too long ago.

GREAT, GREAT, GREAT movie about how California wines (which truly are amazing, I disagree with you completely there, Moses; we produce some incredible Pinot's) got on the world map back in the mid-'70's and beat out French wines in their wine competition.

Great flicks Dave! I love to enjoy them while drinking vino. :tu

My last trip to SB was great. Hit a lot of great wineries and had dinner at the Ballard Inn among other places. I enjoyed the Highliner at Hitching Post, but was not impressed with the food. We even unintentionally had lunch and wine at one of the other places featured in the Sideways (the place where they went on the double date --- Los Olivos Cafe?), but the place was rearranged for the movie. Great food and enjoyed a nice pinot. Gotta like SB wine country. :)

[BC-Axeman]

I'll have to do a SB trip sometime. Did Paso Robles and Napa last year with a couple of little trips to other places too.

[TheRiddick]

Wow, spend a day away from the web and what do you see?

One thing at a time.

Lance,

I hate to say it, but if your "standard" for Pinot is David Bruce, I really need you to try a TON of REALLY GOOD Pinot, David Bruce is average at best, IMO.

Cab has never gone away, I think it will be the last grape to do so. Still popular and still pretty much a standard bearer for the most part since only a small percentage of consumers drink Pinot. Same as for David Bruce and Pinot, I'd say one can also state that Burrell School and Cab are not a combo wine geeks ever think about in the same sentence. Cab and Pride, Cab and Schrader, Cab and Maybach, Cab and a ton of other great producers in Napa proper (Paradigm, Etude, Whitehall Lane, etc, etc, etc).

Looks like I need to introduce you to some Pinot and Cab :-)
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David (MrReinder),

You are the first person I have ever seen refer to Petite Sirah as light. As a matter of fact it is pretty much bigger than any other varietal out there, makes Cabs look like mid bodied wine. When done right, PS is pitch black in the glass with no light coming through and it is pretty dense to boot.

Come to think of it, Syrah is next biggest if done that way. Bigger than Cab. Can and should be almost black in color. Have you tried Syrah from Carlisle, Siduri, Sine Qua Non, Alban? They will change your mind and most likely spoil you forever.
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Sideways, the movie.

Funny how consumers treat the movie as something special, Pinot wine makers hated it and still do for a number of reasons.

But the key point of the entire script/movie and a very BIG PUNCHLINE to underscore how stupid this "I hate f**ing Merlot" thing was went absolutely unnoticed by what, 99% of the viewers? After all that 2 hour anti-Merlot theme that Miles lives by, what is his most prized possession? Yep. A bottle of Cheval Blanc, a nice wine in its own right. But wait, how many people know that it is roughly one half MERLOT? An $1200+ bottle consumed alone, out of a paper cup with a Big Mac in tow.
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Moses,

Pinot when done right will be difficult to ID, been there done that. Burgundy lately is at pretty similar level of ripeness and extraction as is done here in CA. My tasting group did a tasting of the much ballyhooed 2005 vintage, about 6 weeks ago, some good names and regions/vineyards and yet, I would not spend a penny on any of the wines (we had about a dozen). I snuck in one of my own wines as a ringer, made from Monterey fruit that was barely ripe when picked, acidic and all, and this wine tasted super ripe in its flight (all double blind, of course). Burgs drank like acid extractions with no fruit, no flavor (unless one considers acidity a flavor and maybe some one dimensional cherry note) and too much oak, that is too much oak for the little fruit the wines had. Some had brett, not a surprise, of course.

I know you will tell me that the best stuff is expensive, and I also said that before, but until that day when I can afford to spend a $2000+ on a bottle of Pinot, some of the best CA Pinot in the $50-60 per bottle range will do just fine. Its an age old and tired by now argument, but all I can say is that outside of CA, and even here, most people really do not get to taste the best CA produces since the wines are made in small batches and go either to direct to mailing list or some key accounts.

Have you had any Rivers-Marie? Marcassin? August West? Sandler? Sea Smoke? Roessler? Older Dehlinger and Rochioli? All in the $30-80 range.

[BC-Axeman]

Greg, I mentioned that I like my local wineries because I get to know the winemakers and the harvest, etc. I get to buy some of the "one barrel was really great" type of wines from them. I don't have to mess around tasting strange things to find the good ones as often. David Bruce no longer runs his winery and I believe it has gone downhill since Ken Foster left. But he was the one who made the CA wine that beat the Burgundy in the 70s and again more recently. Santa Clara Valley has always produced great cabs. It used to be HUGE production. It seems like demand or mass popularity has decreased. These things seem to go in waves.

Man, that too much oak you talk about! Is it the barrel wood? I noticed it in a lot of different wines from a lot of different regions lately.

[TheRiddick]

Yep, barrel oak :-) Basically, one way to get higher Parker and Laube scores. Many play that game, some refuse to (I do). Oak flavor and tannins are fine up to a point, but cross that line and all you get is vanilla milk shake flavor and drying tannins that bury the fruit. Show me a winery that proudly proclaims they use 100% new oak and I will show you a wine I do not like. Balance is key and lately I buy wines that are made same way I prefer making mine, oak program is carefully dialed in and only determined right at the time before we press (after figuring out just how much oak the fruit can handle, based on vintage conditions, fruit flavors as ferments finish and how much (max) tannin I want in finished wine). Different coopers and forests are used for each vineyard, some barrels play nice with vineard A and completely wreak havoc on vineyard B, so it takes some time to figure out what works. Many buy barrels on "name recognition" never spending time to really analyze if they actually work for the fruit sources. Its an ever evolving process of you want it done right, wine barrels is whole new ballgame and science.

I hear you on David Bruce, my comment was on his recent vintages. About 4 years ago a number of us congregated for a weekend soire at Pisoni Estate, toured the 3 vineyards and drank a lot. Brian Loring brought a case of Pinots he bought the day before, one bottle in particular blew all of us away. Yep, David Bruce, made from an up and coming (then) vineyard right below Garys' Vineyard, simply amazing stuff. Too bad they could not reproduce it again. I also tasted through David Bruce Petites about 3 years ago, but even though I could tell the fruit was great, the wines were "killed" IMO by the use of too much new oak, American to boot, which simply did not play nice with the fruit. But that's a real travesty with most of Petite producers, Petite by definition, has plenty of tannic structure via small berry/thick skin ratio and forcing yet another layer of tannin and oak flavors only muddles the whole deal. If you look at the best made CA Petites, all of them are made with neutral oak: Pride (no longer made), Switchback Ridge, Corte Riva, Outpost, Robert Foley. I'll add mine to the list since I learned from these guys. This is the premier Petite shelf, bar none. Once you move away from that, you start seeing new oak in spades and in a blind tasting the difference is profound.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

I have been looking to get a few nice bottles of wine, trying to expand a little bit, and have been shopping around for quality and also value.
Got a question for the Champagne people. Taittinger seems to be a value play, considering the Brut Millesime 1990 vintage is around $100. How is there stuff? Would it be better to get a younger vintage from Pol Roger, Krug, DP, Salon, Delamotte ect..

[PeteSB75]

Funny, was just reading through this thread and said to myself, I used to really like David Bruce, had some of his Pinot about 12-14 years ago and it was very good. Tried a bottle about a year ago and it was middling at best and certainly not worth what I paid. I thought it was my tastes changing. Good to know that the winemaker is different and it's not all in my head. :tu

I've become a firm believer in wine club mailing lists. When I go tasting somewhere - Long Island and Lodi last two times I went, I try to get on the list of the vineyard whose wines I enjoy the most. Great stuff there, and a substantial amount of it not available to the general public, especially if you get into the smaller wineries, or those who only produce in smaller batches.

[mosesbotbol]

Got a question for the Champagne people. Taittinger seems to be a value play, considering the Brut Millesime 1990 vintage is around $100. How is there stuff? Would it be better to get a younger vintage from Pol Roger, Krug, DP, Salon, Delamotte ect..

The Taittnger Comte de Champagne is one my favorite Champagnes bar none and I have had plenty of heavy hitters. Taittenger has a lemon curd flavor that is just sublime. I can't talk enough about it. I'd imagine the 1990 is Brute Millesime is a home run for $100. I am not a huge Dom Perignon fan unless it's old; try the Oenotheque bottles if you can find for good price. It's a little sweet for me, Cristal- expensive but awesome, bottles can vary from each vintage, the best have a pronounced Parmaesan Cheese taste that is really intense. I really love Philliponant. Their Royal Reserve was voted best Champagne we had a cigar/Champagne tasting that may be on this forum or ICC. Everyone loved it among like 10 good Champagnes and is around $50.00. That would be my pick for under $100.

Champagne is personal. Some like old wine with an old dose. Old wine with new dose. New wine with new dose... I am not an expert hardly on Champagne, just fortunate that a friend of mine is a national expert and sold more top end bottles of Champagne than just about anyone in USA for the last few years.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

The Taittnger Comte de Champagne is one my favorite Champagnes bar none and I have had plenty of heavy hitters. Taittenger has a lemon curd flavor that is just sublime. I can't talk enough about it. I'd imagine the 1990 is Brute Millesime is a home run for $100. I am not a huge Dom Perignon fan unless it's old. It's a little sweet for me, Cristal- expensive but awesome, bottles can vary from each vintage, the best have a pronounced Parmaesan Cheese taste that is really intense. I really love Philliponant. Their Royal Reserve was voted best Champagne we had a cigar/Champagne tasting that may be on this forum or ICC. Everyone loved it among like 10 good Champagnes and is around $50.00. That would be my pick for under $100.


Very nice! I will also take a look at Philliponat. :banger

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Most places have Philipponnat Royale Reserve for $30:tu

[mosesbotbol]

Most places have Philipponnat Royale Reserve for $30:tu

I guess we know what you'll be drinking this weekend. Lucky you. If you can find the Comte de Champagne (under $150) you're in for a real treat.

Henriot vintage is good one to look for as well. I like Cremants with age, but that is a different thread.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Wow, it's been a long time for this thread. I guess I will post my recent buys.

2005 Chateau Reignac Bordeaux
2007 Chateau de Campuget Costieres de Nimes Rhone
2008 Thierry & Guy Fat Bastard Merlot

I'm really looking forward to the 2005 bordeaux. The other two bottles were recommended by a friend.

Anyone else buy any bottles lately?

[BC-Axeman]

My wine pallet is getting bi-polar. If it's good or very good it goes on the good side. If it's not it goes on the bad side. I buy one and not the other and don't care much any more except to notice when one really stands out. But wine is always changing, even the same wine. Worse than cigars. I just give up. That said, I'm always buying some. Tasted some in Cambria from a Paso Robles winery near there call Black Hand that was good and bought some. Can't remember the grape. I have about 300 bottles at any one time and can never remember the story behind them all.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

My wine pallet is getting bi-polar. If it's good or very good it goes on the good side. If it's not it goes on the bad side. I buy one and not the other and don't care much any more except to notice when one really stands out. But wine is always changing, even the same wine. Worse than cigars. I just give up. That said, I'm always buying some. Tasted some in Cambria from a Paso Robles winery near there call Black Hand that was good and bought some. Can't remember the grape. I have about 300 bottles at any one time and can never remember the story behind them all.


Have you had anything from Priorat recently? That's another area I'm looking at getting into.

[TheRiddick]

If you like Priorat, which is pretty much Grenache grape, you should try some Grenache based offerings from CA and Australia. Grenache is as expressive as Pinot Noir and Barolo.

[3SmokesaRound]

Just seeing this thread for the first time. Don't have time to read through everything right now, but looking forward to checking it out. I love wine, and have for a couple years now, but really know nothing about it (other than I like to drink it) Pinot, Cabs and Petite Syrahs are usually my go to wines :tu

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

If you like Priorat, which is pretty much Grenache grape, you should try some Grenache based offerings from CA and Australia. Grenache is as expressive as Pinot Noir and Barolo.

Can you recommend any producers?

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

I've had this idea in my head- but I was going to wait until the New year to post about it, but why not start it now?

I would love to start a "tasting club" here. I think it would introduce people to new wines, help train palettes, most importantly get people thinking and learning about wine.

heres how it would work:

-Every week/ 2 weeks someone picks a varietal and/or region- this can be chosen out of a hat or have a list set up.

Example- Joe_Smith picks- California Syrah
Everyone goes out and buys a bottle off CA syrah and posts tasting notes- we can eventually modify this to CA Syrah under $20 or Dry Creek Valley Syrah, etc.

-We come up with standard tasting guidelines- notes for sight / nose / taste - etc

- You can taste as many wines as you want to during the alloted time period.

What do you guys think? We can add some guidelines along the way.


I would love to start this idea. I'm up to drink whatever. I guess let's start simple. I'm sure everyone can grab a Cali Cab. What are your thoughts?

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Picked up some more wine today. I'm just trying to expand my palate and try as much as possible. I picked these up fairly cheap.
2007 Rosenblum Zinfandel
2007 Robert Mondavi Private Cab
2007 Ruffino Chianti Superiore

[maverickdrinker]

been on a champagne kick lately

2000 dom perignon
1996 bollinger RD
bollinger NV
nicolas feuallatte NV
lanson rose
piper hiedsieck rose sauvage

[mosesbotbol]

Can you recommend any producers?
Anything made in France that has a decent review.

[TheRiddick]

Anything made in France that has a decent review.

Priorat is in Spain.

[mosesbotbol]

Priorat is in Spain.

There's plenty of Grenache in France; Languedoc-Roussillon, Cotes du Rhone and Gigondas have plenty of Grenache based wines.

Perhaps something from Beaucastel or St. Cosme he might fancy?

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

I thought that Priorat is a region in Spain??

On a side note, I did buy some Bogle Petite Sirah from 2008 along with another 2005 Bordeaux, Clos Marsalette.

The Bogle has been a hit for some guys in this thread. I may try their Merlot or Cab.

[BC-Axeman]

The Bogle has been a hit for some guys in this thread. I may try their Merlot or Cab.
Or their Zin. It's at our Costco.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Or their Zin. It's at our Costco.

Great prices from Bogle too.

[mpd340]

Several good cheap brands are Barefoot and Yellow Tail. Usually about $6-7 bucks a bottle. They have Merlot, Cabs , Sauv, Moscatos and several others. Worth a try!

[Zeuceone]

Definately will try some of these suggestions.

[TheRiddick]

There's plenty of Grenache in France; Languedoc-Roussillon, Cotes du Rhone and Gigondas have plenty of Grenache based wines.

Perhaps something from Beaucastel or St. Cosme he might fancy?

Moses,

Aren't CdPs (Beaucastel and St. Cosme in this case) blends with varying degrees of Grenache in them? Priorat is pure Grenache, and new American oak barrels to boot (even winder flavor variation). They are different animals and as much as I like Grenache blends, 100% Grenache when done right is magic.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Several good cheap brands are Barefoot and Yellow Tail. Usually about $6-7 bucks a bottle. They have Merlot, Cabs , Sauv, Moscatos and several others. Worth a try!

Spend $5-6 more and you can find some good stuff. Yellow Tail to me is like the BudMillerCoors of the beer world. There's no "terroir" with Yellow Tail. I know many people like it, and if that's what tastes good to them, that's no problem with me.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Ok, some tasting notes on the 2008 Thierry & Guy Fat Bastard Merlot: (100% Merlot, from France, not sure the exact region)

First off, great rich red color in the glass.
On the nose, I'm smelling ripe cherries, strawberries, hint of cream(vanilla maybe), and raisins.
On the palate, up front there are sour cherries, ripe red fruit, and some earthy flavors.
To be honest, this wine drops off quickly. I like wines that are strong on the mid-palate, and have a good finish. This wine has decent stuff up front, but you loose the flavors fairly quick. I have had $20 merlot from Cali thats been worse. Not a terribly merlot. I think this bottle was $12.

[TheRiddick]

Spend $5-6 more and you can find some good stuff. Yellow Tail to me is like the BudMillerCoors of the beer world. There's no "terroir" with Yellow Tail. I know many people like it, and if that's what tastes good to them, that's no problem with me.

I am sure there are posts on Yellow Tail somewhere in this thread, wine is not the first thing that comes to mind when discussing YT, their pride in the chem lab size and effort is. I'd rather drink Bud/Miller/Coors before I would even consider drinking Yellow Tail. Or stick with water.

At YT price point much better wines, real wines, can be had from Fetzer, which is a major step up in quality, IMO.

Bogle, Sebastiani are very affordable and great producers. Lower priced Rosenblum offerings are seriously good as well (Chateau Le Paw?).

[BC-Axeman]

Ok, some tasting notes on the 2008 Thierry & Guy Fat Bastard Merlot: (100% Merlot, from France, not sure the exact region)

First off, great rich red color in the glass.
On the nose, I'm smelling ripe cherries, strawberries, hint of cream(vanilla maybe), and raisins.
On the palate, up front there are sour cherries, ripe red fruit, and some earthy flavors.
To be honest, this wine drops off quickly. I like wines that are strong on the mid-palate, and have a good finish. This wine has decent stuff up front, but you loose the flavors fairly quick. I have had $20 merlot from Cali thats been worse. Not a terribly merlot. I think this bottle was $12.
Sounds like you were describing a Cab not a Merlot.

[OnlyDryReds]

I am sure there are posts on Yellow Tail somewhere in this thread, wine is not the first thing that comes to mind when discussing YT, their pride in the chem lab size and effort is. I'd rather drink Bud/Miller/Coors before I would even consider drinking Yellow Tail. Or stick with water.

At YT price point much better wines, real wines, can be had from Fetzer, which is a major step up in quality, IMO.

Bogle, Sebastiani are very affordable and great producers. Lower priced Rosenblum offerings are seriously good as well (Chateau Le Paw?).

Fetzer makes a nice gewurztraminer, I agree. I have found some of the Robert Mondavi products close to same price at YT and to be much better. They make a meritage, which of course is just a bordeaux blend, but my wife and I find for something less then 15 a bottle is very drinkable IMO. But as before, each person has a different taste, and of course someone who has been drinking wine for longer period usually has a dryer taste. Hey I am someone who enjoys a petite verdot in a single varital, and btw that is a wine I think stands up to a nice smoke very well. :)

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Fetzer makes a nice gewurztraminer, I agree. I have found some of the Robert Mondavi products close to same price at YT and to be much better. They make a meritage, which of course is just a bordeaux blend, but my wife and I find for something less then 15 a bottle is very drinkable IMO. But as before, each person has a different taste, and of course someone who has been drinking wine for longer period usually has a dryer taste. Hey I am someone who enjoys a petite verdot in a single varital, and btw that is a wine I think stands up to a nice smoke very well. :)

How are the higher end Mondavi offerings?

[TheRiddick]

Rob,

When talking about YT it is not a question of dry or not, its simply that the wine is a chemical concoction produced by careful dialing in in a chem lab. Their own proud admission and marketing point.

Actually, I do like off dry wines, whites in particular, with spicy food (Oriental) as well as after dinner (Quarts de Chaume in particular and Pedro Ximinez with cigars, there is no better pairing, period).
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Nate,

Higher end Mondavi Cabs are good wines, but not as good as their competition at same price points. If you want to try a GREAT Napa Cab that is still flying under the radar for a long time now, buy a bottle of Paradigm. Best bargain around, IMO. If not in IL market they do sell direct AFAIK.

An interesting blend you may want to try is Parador, the components (varietals) sound like they should not work together, but the blend works really well, IMO.

[OnlyDryReds]

Rob,

When talking about YT it is not a question of dry or not, its simply that the wine is a chemical concoction produced by careful dialing in in a chem lab. Their own proud admission and marketing point.

Actually, I do like off dry wines, whites in particular, with spicy food (Oriental) as well as after dinner (Quarts de Chaume in particular and Pedro Ximinez with cigars, there is no better pairing, period).
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Nate,

Higher end Mondavi Cabs are good wines, but not as good as their competition at same price points. If you want to try a GREAT Napa Cab that is still flying under the radar for a long time now, buy a bottle of Paradigm. Best bargain around, IMO. If not in IL market they do sell direct AFAIK.

An interesting blend you may want to try is Parador, the components (varietals) sound like they should not work together, but the blend works really well, IMO.



I was just making a comparison, not saying one was dryer then another, as far as the cab, Kendall Jackson makes one about the same price as the higher end Mondavi in which I think is a much better cab. I was just saying that for the under 15 dollar range, I can even get a French "45" which is even a nice "steak" wine, as a matter of fact... Hmmmm I might just have to pop over a 45 tonight.... :)

And as far as an off dry white my wife and I enjoyed a nice Moscato from the finger lakes with mexican which I thought went well together.

[pektel]

My favorite budget wine is fetzer. I can buy it at my local walmart liquor store for 6.97. Fetzer actually has a great pricepoint for the quality. I prefer their chard, cab, and Pinot noir.

Had an okay yt merlot. Not something I would buy to appreciate though.

A great Pinot noir at a decent price is bogle. 16.99 locally. I believe the only other bogle Ive had is the Shiraz.

My favorite mid range cab is frei brothers. But that is 22.99 iirc. I started buying it when walmart had it for $16.00.
Posted via Mobile Device

[BC-Axeman]

While not strictly a wine, I got a bottle of Fairbanks Cream Sherry for Christmas. Tasty stuff. Smoke, raisins, honey are flavors I get from it. Moderately sweet. It has a touch of bitterness though. I could drink a lot of this if it didn't have so much alcohol.

[mosesbotbol]

Under $7, there's plenty of wines from Spain, France and Portugal that offer terrior and authenticity. Tempranillo "Rioja's", Dao's from Portugal, or general Pinot Noir from France are all great on a budget. CA is turning out some decent Cab's on the low end too.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

I'd like to pick up a few Chateauneuf du Pape wines. I can't remember ever having any, but I've been looking around for some stuff in the $20-30 range and it seems these wines are priced fairly high. Can anyone name of some good labels in that range? Also, I've noticed that CdP produces almost all red wine, and I Rarely see white coming out of CdP. How are the whites?

[mosesbotbol]

Can anyone name of some good labels in that range? Also, I've noticed that CdP produces almost all red wine, and I Rarely see white coming out of CdP. How are the whites?

2007 is a good vintage for CdP. Vatican, Perrin, Guigal and Telegraph are popular. White CdP is actually popular and worth trying if you're into whites.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

I can get a lot of 2007 CdP. How's Telegramme? My local wine store has it just under $30, I may pick a bottle up.

It's a second label to the Telegraphe that you mentioned, Moses. Produced from younger vines, less than 30 years old.

[mosesbotbol]

I can get a lot of 2007 CdP. How's Telegramme? My local wine store has it just under $30, I may pick a bottle up.

It's a second label to the Telegraphe that you mentioned, Moses. Produced from younger vines, less than 30 years old.

'07 CdP's need some time to decant if you plan to drink now. Consider buying some Gigondas; another Rhone wine for less money. St. Cosme makes a nice one, as Guigal.

[TheRiddick]

I'd like to pick up a few Chateauneuf du Pape wines. I can't remember ever having any, but I've been looking around for some stuff in the $20-30 range and it seems these wines are priced fairly high. Can anyone name of some good labels in that range? Also, I've noticed that CdP produces almost all red wine, and I Rarely see white coming out of CdP. How are the whites?

Pretty much anything in Kermit Lynch portfolio, all the wines he imports should have his sticker on them. Some are great values and priced fairly low.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Picked up a few bottles today,

2007 Telegramme Chateauneuf Du Pape
2007 Domaine les Pallieres "Les Terraces de Diable"
2008 Joseph Drouhin Cote de Nuits Villages


The first two wines are imported by Kermit Lynch.
Has anyone read his book, Adventures on the Wine Route: A Wine Buyer's Tour of France

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Picked up a bottle of 2006 Robert Mondavi Oakville cab yesterday, it was only $19:tu

[kelmac07]

Could never get into drinking wine...could not get past the vinegar smell. Every wine that I tried, had that smell. And then a friend turned me onto Moscato...WOW!!! :dr :dr :dr Like drinking fresh grapes.

[BC-Axeman]

I associate Paso Robles with Zinfandel and Petit Sirah, so when I see a new one I am not afraid to try it. Our Costco has a 2008 Zin from a Paso winery called Opolo named Summit Creek Zin. It is rich, fruity, velvety, and high in alcohol (16.4%) though you can't tell it from the taste. I expected it to be porty but it's not. A very good expression of a Paso Robles Zin for less than $20. I may go back and get a case.

[maverickdrinker]

CdP that you might want to consider picking up as well

Pegau
Beaucastel
vieux donjon
Clos st jean
Pasquie

[maverickdrinker]

some purchases this weekend

(1) 1999 bollinger grande annee
(4) NV Tarlant Brut Rose Zero
(1) Nino Franco Prosecco
(1) 2002 Veuve Cliquot

[maverickdrinker]

had some friends over last night and popped a few corks

from what I can remember from last night.

nino franco prosecco
tarlant brut rose zero
iniskillin sparkling icewine
some Ontario white wine that I liked but can't remember the name
2007 outpost howell mountain cab
2003 Neal cab
2004 arcadian pinot (can't remember the vineyard)
2001 Dunn Howell Mountain
2005 CLiff Lede SLD
Yalumba muscat stickie

Moving gently today, walking softly, water is my best friend.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

some purchases this weekend

(1) 1999 bollinger grande annee
(4) NV Tarlant Brut Rose Zero
(1) Nino Franco Prosecco
(1) 2002 Veuve Cliquot

Nice haul.

What are some good years for Bollinger?

[maverickdrinker]

1996 was a great year for champagne in general. I had the 96 bollinger RD and it was fantastic. Not too experienced in vintage champagne. This is one of my new year's resolutions....

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

1996 was a great year for champagne in general. I had the 96 bollinger RD and it was fantastic. Not too experienced in vintage champagne. This is one of my new year's resolutions....

Wine in general is something I want to get more versed in. I haven't had a Champagne in a while though. It's another wine I need to get a few bottles of. I'm also curious as to which other regions produce good sparkling wine.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

How about Pol Roger? 1998 Sir Winston worth the price tag?

[TheRiddick]

CdP that you might want to consider picking up as well

Pegau
Beaucastel


You must really love brett... These two are notorious for it.

[TheRiddick]

How about Pol Roger? 1998 Sir Winston worth the price tag?

Nate, if you really want to learn about Champagne I would recommend you start with small, family owned brands. They are easily as good as (almost) anything from big boys and way better priced. See if you can pick up Agrapart, Henri Billiot, Duval-LeRoy, Paul Bara or Henriot. If you want to spend a bit more I can recommend you try Billecart-Salmon Rose.

And you really need to try Etoile rose as well (Napa), I had it next to some better French versions and for me it was easily the better wine at much better price.

[mosesbotbol]

How about Pol Roger? 1998 Sir Winston worth the price tag?

It is an excellent Champagne, but there are many nice ones. How much did you see it for? Under $150 I would go for it.

[mosesbotbol]

You must really love brett... These two are notorious for it.

A little brett goes a long way. I thought the most recent vintages aren't as "bretty"?

[mosesbotbol]

Wine in general is something I want to get more versed in. I haven't had a Champagne in a while though. It's another wine I need to get a few bottles of. I'm also curious as to which other regions produce good sparkling wine.

All over France sparkling wines are made. Check out Cremant; all the pleasure of Champagne at 20% the price. Made mostly with Pinot Noir and comes in various sweetness levels. Cava from Spain is good too. America makes a few noteworthy ones from TX and RI.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Nate, if you really want to learn about Champagne I would recommend you start with small, family owned brands. They are easily as good as (almost) anything from big boys and way better priced. See if you can pick up Agrapart, Henri Billiot, Duval-LeRoy, Paul Bara or Henriot. If you want to spend a bit more I can recommend you try Billecart-Salmon Rose.

And you really need to try Etoile rose as well (Napa), I had it next to some better French versions and for me it was easily the better wine at much better price.

Thanks for the advice Greg. I think I can get most of those you listed.

It is an excellent Champagne, but there are many nice ones. How much did you see it for? Under $150 I would go for it.

Moses, most prices I have seen have been around $190-200.

[mosesbotbol]

Moses, most prices I have seen have been around $190-200.

I would rather have the Taittinger Comte de Champagne at $150-200. For under $150, Pierre Peters Les Chetillons is hard to beat.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Can anyone comment on these producers?

Perrier-Jouët
Montaudon
Bruno Gobillard
Gaston Chiquet
Gosset
Pommery
Pierre Ferrand
Godmé Père & Fils
Jean Laurent
Laurent-Perrier
René Geoffroy

[TheRiddick]

A little brett goes a long way. I thought the most recent vintages aren't as "bretty"?

Yeah, this is Parker's most "popular" misconception that, unfortunately, has been bought by consumers. How does one "control" how much brett in in wine?

Funny, as I was having an online "discussion" with Parker on the subject and he pulled a bottle of Pegau out of his cellar and then immediately posted online that his bottle was "whistle clean", Laurence chimed in and said that ALL Pegaus have brett. You should visit the cellar/winery, its disgusting (mold on walls, barrels, etc.) Brett, from a technical standpoint, is the the single worst problem a wine can have.

[TheRiddick]

Pierre Ferrand is one of the better small house Cognacs around, IMO. Not cheap, but great. If you're into incredible Cognacs you should try Leopold Gourmel.

Of the sparklers on your list the one that "stands out" for me is Laurent-Perrier, really good stuff. Rene Geoffroy is good as well.

The other are mostly big houses (Pommery, Perrir-Jouet, Gosset) and although produce some really god wine I prefer to give my money to the small guys Gosset made its name on their Rose bottling and while good I had it next to that Etoile Rose I listed above and for me Etoile blew it away, handily. At a much better price.

The rest of the list is small, family owned wineries and while all are pretty good (I don't think you'll find a dud on the list) the few others I listed are probably better wines. The good thing about your list (the small guys) is that they are not that expensive (relatively) and you can try them all over the time to see what you like without spending a huge chunk of money.

For my money, if I really want to splurge, nothing beats Salon, IMO. They only release 3-4 times a decade and sell off bulk wine in the "off" years.

Costco in CA carries Piper-Heidsieck Rose Sauvage, at a really good price (used to see it at $40?), you should see if you can score a bottle. I know, its a large house, but the wine is undervalued, IMO, at that price.

[mosesbotbol]

You should visit the cellar/winery, its disgusting (mold on walls, barrels, etc.) Brett, from a technical standpoint, is the the single worst problem a wine can have.

It's bad due to hygiene of the wine making facility. I can see if you are running a sterile and top notch facility and "add" brett like some beer makers due, but this is not true in Rhone wines. I don't mind a little brett in CdP as it is considered "terrior" to some extent, but brett can get out of control and dominate a wine in no time.

I doubt anyone would add brett to wine.

As for Parker, he knows when it's "pop and pour" the Brett may not come out, but it will sitting in the decanter for any real amount of time.

[landhoney]

How does one "control" how much brett in in wine?


K-met and sterile filtering then blending? Seriously though I have no idea, guess it doesn't work like that in most cases.

Its interesting to me as a former wine researcher for the University of Maryland we hated Brett, but actually kept carboys of flawed wine for educational purposes, we would have flawed wines to clearly show what a 'flaw' tasted like. Whatever Brett strain(s) we had up there had the classic 'mousy' character, funny as I don't recall getting that flavor/character in any beer.

Now as a beer brewer who loves wild/sour ales I am adding Brettanomyces intentionally to my beers. :r

[TheRiddick]

Moses,

This is the same thing Parker claims, brett is "terroir". And I say BS! Here is the challenge I presented to him, which he obviously declined as he knew he is set up for utter failure. Same one goes to you:

I will set up a blind test, each and every bottle will be a single varietal (Cab, Merlot, etc.). Each and every one will be infected with brett. All I want you to tell me is what varietal is in every bottle, nothing more than that.

You won't be able to as brett will be the single most defining character in each wine. How is that "terroir"? How is brett in France differ from, say, bretty bottle made in Australia or Mongolia? They all smell and taste the same at that point and the only thing they will all show is brett. BTW, frernch are not the only "guilty" party, OR Pinots are notorious for brett as well (hmmm, they do claim "Burgundian" style).
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Seth,

Good points and ideas. Sterile filtering is the only safe option. And wineries in CA are known to banish bretty barrels from the floor altogether, brett spreads like wild fire and I've seen barrels literally carted out to the parking lot for the owner to remove them ASAP. At the facility I am one intern a few years back was doing punch downs (per owner's request) and decided to cut corners. Instead of cleaning the punch down tool (stainless steel) between each bin he simply went from bin to bin (hey, not his wine and not his problem, right?). You guessed it, many wines at the facility that year (this is a shared facility) experienced a problem with brett, I was the lucky one since that particular day I was there and told the idiot to stay away from my bins (as well as educating him on proper winery standards of cleanliness, too bad I caught it too late into the task and a good number of bins were already infected).

Brett in beer is a different ball game, many Belgian beers are great because of brett.

[BC-Axeman]

Does brett end up in tobacco? Is that the "'barnyard" smell?

[mosesbotbol]

Does brett end up in tobacco? Is that the "'barnyard" smell?

Yes.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Had a 2009 Montebuena Rioja tonight with a friend. Best wine I have had in a while. Very good wine. I made a point to write a note to myself to pick up a few bottles to put away. And I think I spent like $12, so good value wine. :tu

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Popped a 2007 Chateau Campuget Costieres de Nimes tonight. The nose is awesome on this wine. Sweet raspberry, and like a chocolate/earthy component too. I like it.

[SeanGAR]

Different Brett clones have different aroma characteristics, so Brett can't be regarded as a single entity (same as Sacc. cere., different clones express different levels of enzymes involved in flavor production).

To get Brett character in beer, you need to leave the beer to ferment many months to years, even if you innoculate. A Lambic we made (added 2 Brett clones) that had zero Brett character after 6 months had the defined character after 12. If you're making beer on a regular homebrew schedule (make-drink within a couple of months), the chance of getting Brett character accidentally is close to zero.

Oh, and I don't link the horse poo smell of a good Cuban with Brett ... they seem quite different aroma characteristics to me.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Pierre Ferrand is one of the better small house Cognacs around, IMO. Not cheap, but great. If you're into incredible Cognacs you should try Leopold Gourmel.

Of the sparklers on your list the one that "stands out" for me is Laurent-Perrier, really good stuff. Rene Geoffroy is good as well.

The other are mostly big houses (Pommery, Perrir-Jouet, Gosset) and although produce some really god wine I prefer to give my money to the small guys Gosset made its name on their Rose bottling and while good I had it next to that Etoile Rose I listed above and for me Etoile blew it away, handily. At a much better price.

The rest of the list is small, family owned wineries and while all are pretty good (I don't think you'll find a dud on the list) the few others I listed are probably better wines. The good thing about your list (the small guys) is that they are not that expensive (relatively) and you can try them all over the time to see what you like without spending a huge chunk of money.

For my money, if I really want to splurge, nothing beats Salon, IMO. They only release 3-4 times a decade and sell off bulk wine in the "off" years.

Costco in CA carries Piper-Heidsieck Rose Sauvage, at a really good price (used to see it at $40?), you should see if you can score a bottle. I know, its a large house, but the wine is undervalued, IMO, at that price.

Cool Salon video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNrC3UFOGLY

[TheRiddick]

Different Brett clones have different aroma characteristics, so Brett can't be regarded as a single entity (same as Sacc. cere., different clones express different levels of enzymes involved in flavor production).

To get Brett character in beer, you need to leave the beer to ferment many months to years, even if you innoculate. A Lambic we made (added 2 Brett clones) that had zero Brett character after 6 months had the defined character after 12. If you're making beer on a regular homebrew schedule (make-drink within a couple of months), the chance of getting Brett character accidentally is close to zero.

Oh, and I don't link the horse poo smell of a good Cuban with Brett ... they seem quite different aroma characteristics to me.

There are just 2 strains, basically, when it comes to wine, arrive with the grapes off the vineyard (they are basically the "bad" yeasts).

[SeanGAR]

There are just 2 strains, basically, when it comes to wine, arrive with the grapes off the vineyard (they are basically the "bad" yeasts).

Recent work on clonal variation and Brett flavors came from Vigentini et al FEMS yeast research 2008 & Renouf et al IJWR 2009.

From the second reference, "However, different B. bruxellensis strains exhibit varying characteristics, particularly their capacity to produce volatile phenols. This implies that certain strains are more prejudicial than others.".

[landhoney]

To get Brett character in beer, you need to leave the beer to ferment many months to years, even if you innoculate. A Lambic we made (added 2 Brett clones) that had zero Brett character after 6 months had the defined character after 12. If you're making beer on a regular homebrew schedule (make-drink within a couple of months), the chance of getting Brett character accidentally is close to zero.


You can use Brett as a primary fermenter, instead of a 'normal' Sach strain and it will be done in a few weeks (or normal ale time frame, non-high gravity beer of course) if pitched at the right rate (higher than normal ale strains).
It does not give the same characteristics, i.e. the super low atennuation, as when used in conjunction with normal yeast strains in beers like Lambics, Flanders, etc but you can get very interesting Brett characteristics in all Brett fermented beers that are done in a short timeframe. Commercial examples like Mo Betta Bretta, Sanctification are made this way.

edit> Also, sorry oenophiles (myself included), I know this is the wine thread not the beer thread. :)

Also, I know there is no substitute for the wild/sour ales done the slow way. I have two oak barrels full of beer that has been aging for more than a year at this point because I love that style. They are my favorite beers by far.

[SeanGAR]

Also, I know there is no substitute for the wild/sour ales done the slow way. I have two oak barrels full of beer that has been aging for more than a year at this point because I love that style. They are my favorite beers by far.

Party when they're done? :tu

[bigswol2]

Could never get into drinking wine...could not get past the vinegar smell. Every wine that I tried, had that smell. And then a friend turned me onto Moscato...WOW!!! :dr :dr :dr Like drinking fresh grapes.

Mac get you some Hinnant Muscadine wine! Yooooowza!

[rizzle]

Found a new bottle I like, Meiomi Pinot Noir. I don't know all y'alls jargon, so I'll just say, to me a really good find. Clean and crisp and smooth. And at $19.99, a nice buy.

[mmblz]

my stash of $10/bottle Chateau Souverain Cabernet is getting just low enough that I'm starting to be depressed at the idea of either spending more or drinking crappy wine after this runs out...

[BC-Axeman]

my stash of $10/bottle Chateau Souverain Cabernet is getting just low enough that I'm starting to be depressed at the idea of either spending more or drinking crappy wine after this runs out...
What is it about this wine that stood out to you? Besides the price value.

[mmblz]

What is it about this wine that stood out to you? Besides the price value.

It's normally $20. Pretty good CA cab even for $20, but a steal at $10.

[landhoney]

At Publix with my wife a day or two before Valentines and I see Heidsieck & Co Monopole Blue Top Brut, Champagne, pretty standard at around $30. They were selling them two for $30, basically buy one get one free, could not beleive it, and picked them up. At ~$30 I think its a pretty good value Champagne, but at $15 its a no brainer buy. :D

[BC-Axeman]

I just met a Paso Robles winemaker named David James at a cigar lounge (Perfecto) here. There is some kind of Syrah Days or something like that going on and he was exhibiting an '05 he made. He stopped in for a cigar and opened up a bottle for tasting. Very nice. Good mixture of oak, no brett :D and a smooth long finish. You never know who you will meet.

[rizzle]

At Publix with my wife a day or two before Valentines and I see Heidsieck & Co Monopole Blue Top Brut, Champagne, pretty standard at around $30. They were selling them two for $30, basically buy one get one free, could not beleive it, and picked them up. At ~$30 I think its a pretty good value Champagne, but at $15 its a no brainer buy. :D

Every now and then that happens at Publix, Seth. Most people, myself generally included, aren't afficionados at much more than a thing or two and I think Champagne probbly fits that bill to a T. In other words, most people buying champagne at Publix are probably going to grab a bottle or two of $9 Korbel.

To make a long story short, a while back I stumbled upon Veuve Cliquot Ponsardin at Publix marked down to like $16 a bottle. Bought every one they had. Probably not tops on everyones list, but at that price, hells yeah.

[landhoney]

Every now and then that happens at Publix, Seth. Most people, myself generally included, aren't afficionados at much more than a thing or two and I think Champagne probbly fits that bill to a T. In other words, most people buying champagne at Publix are probably going to grab a bottle or two of $9 Korbel.

To make a long story short, a while back I stumbled upon Veuve Cliquot Ponsardin at Publix marked down to like $16 a bottle. Bought every one they had. Probably not tops on everyones list, but at that price, hells yeah.

Yep, I don't normally look through the wine section.....but I will now. :tu

[mosesbotbol]

To make a long story short, a while back I stumbled upon Veuve Cliquot Ponsardin at Publix marked down to like $16 a bottle. Bought every one they had. Probably not tops on everyones list, but at that price, hells yeah.

I would buy all of it too at that price. Good score! :tu

[innova]

Anyone into over-extracted Zinfandels? (Klinker Brick, anything Lodi) Looking to try something outside the usual suspects here.

-Thanks!

[JohnnyFlake]

Is anyone into Madeira? I have decided to delve into this wine a bit. I have read as much material on it that I could fine over the last few days. In some of the reviews I have read where that particular bottling goes very well with cigars. Now I am planing to pick up a bottle or two and try it out.

Any input and/or advise would be appreciated.

[BC-Axeman]

There used to be a Madiera thread. That may have been before Oct '08 ;D

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

I'm looking to pick up some whites from Loire Valley. Can anyone recommend some good readily available wines?

[TheRiddick]

Nate, look for Huet. They make some dry ones as well as spectacular sweets.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Nate, look for Huet. They make some dry ones as well as spectacular sweets.

Thanks, I'll look for some of their offerings.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Loire Valley is "the place" for whites in France right?

[TheRiddick]

Also, Champalou (imported by Kermit Lynch) make some of the better wines there, both dry and sparkling at lower prices than Huet. Both of these are in Vouvray region.

If you're into sweet wines (after dinner and with cigars) along with those of Huet I'd also look into Domaine Baumard (or others from Quarts de Chaume/Coteaux du Layon regions).

On the dry Loires front, some of the better producers are located in Sancerre region: Marc Brediff and Henri Bourgeois both make great wines.

[TheRiddick]

Not sure I'd call Loire "the" place for whites in France :-) There is always Alsace region producing some spectacular whites, both dry and not. Bordeaux region makes some of the best whites as well, pricey, but incredible. And there are whites in Burgundy (Chardonnay) as well Rhone (Marsanne/Rousanne/Viognier grapes). It all depends on what you're in the mood for and how much your wallet can stand the abuse :-)

[mosesbotbol]

Not sure I'd call Loire "the" place for whites in France :-) There is always Alsace region producing some spectacular whites, both dry and not. Bordeaux region makes some of the best whites as well, pricey, but incredible. And there are whites in Burgundy (Chardonnay) as well Rhone (Marsanne/Rousanne/Viognier grapes). It all depends on what you're in the mood for and how much your wallet can stand the abuse :-)

The most expensive whites are from Burgundy, including Meursault and Chevalier-Montrachet. Rhone has some nice whites from CdP and Cote Rotie. Generally Meursault is 'top of the pops' when it comes to white wine in France. Loire has lost popularity with the consumer, but is a great value due to that.

It depends what you are in the mood for as TheRiddick has mentioned. White Burgs are being dumped by a lot of distributors as many consumers aren't spending $50+ on white wine like they use to. Some great deals in the bin ends locally for me.

[mosesbotbol]

Is anyone into Madeira? I have decided to delve into this wine a bit. I have read as much material on it that I could fine over the last few days. In some of the reviews I have read where that particular bottling goes very well with cigars. Now I am planing to pick up a bottle or two and try it out.

Any input and/or advise would be appreciated.

What do you want to know. I adore Madeira, probably more than any other wine, but can get pricy.

The best easy to find Madeiras under $100 are:

Broadbent 10 year Malmsey
Broabent 1996 Colheita
Blandy's Alvada
Rare Wine Company's "Historic Series"
D'Oliveiras 1968 Bual (about $150ish)

[TheRiddick]

The most expensive whites are from Burgundy, including Meursault and Chevalier-Montrachet.

Moses, I know you have a Euro-centric palate and cellar, but I am sure white wine producers in Bordeaux (and other regions in France) will disagree with you statement. When was the last time you looked at Sauternes prices? Or those of dry whites from Haut-Brion and such? They make very little (when compared to their red programs), and I only wish prices for Bordeaux whites would be in affordable category (some DRY whites reach $400 per bottle, although spectacular wines by any measure). I'd be a buyer, for sure. Most, if not all, white Burgs are affordable. North Rhone whites are more expensive than white Burgs, Chave comes to mind (Hermitage White, they start at $200 and quickly go up, that is if you can find a bottle) and there are others. Even Beaucastel white is more expensive than Burgs and its Southern Rhone.

White Burgs are much more known and more readily available, but price wise, they are not top of the heap. Bordeaux, North Rhone and Alsace are more expensive, in that order, with sweet Loires taking 4th place.

[mosesbotbol]

Moses, I know you have a Euro-centric palate and cellar, but I am sure white wine producers in Bordeaux (and other regions in France) will disagree with you statement. When was the last time you looked at Sauternes prices?

I wanted to stick with dry wines and keep it very general.

[JohnnyFlake]

What do you want to know. I adore Madeira, probably more than any other wine, but can get pricy.

The best easy to find Madeiras under $100 are:

Broadbent 10 year Malmsey
Broabent 1996 Colheita
Blandy's Alvada
Rare Wine Company's "Historic Series"
D'Oliveiras 1968 Bual (about $150ish)

I have just recently started enjoying Madeira and I am wondering why it took me so long to try it. I understand that most of what you have mentioned are at the higher end, except maybe the Broadbent 10yr Malmsey. so I have not tried them yet. I have tried Blandy 5 & 10 Sercial and they are great.

I also enjoy some Ports, but what's super nice about Madeira over Port, is that Madeira will virtually last for ever, even once open, if properly sealed. Port may last a few weeks to maybe a month or two and the very most.

What are your thoughts on the 5yr, 10yr and maybe 20yr, Sercial vs Malmsey vs Bual?

[scottfish]

I was never into wine before visiting Napa for the first time in September.

On one of our tastings, a young lady couldn't stop talking about how 2007 was the "perfect season" in Northern California.

Now I don't know squat. I like what doesn't make me cringe and pucker when I drink it and makes me feel good :) . I have, however tested the 2007 statement out and when in doubt grab an inexpensive 2007 California over anything else. I haven't been let down yet.

Is it true about '07 or am I just experiencing a placebo effect?

[hammondc]

I just met a Paso Robles winemaker named David James at a cigar lounge (Perfecto) here. There is some kind of Syrah Days or something like that going on and he was exhibiting an '05 he made. He stopped in for a cigar and opened up a bottle for tasting. Very nice. Good mixture of oak, no brett :D and a smooth long finish. You never know who you will meet.

David James or Tobin James? A friend of mine brought me some Cab and Red Zin from Tobin James Winery in Paso Robles a while back. Some of the best stuff I have ever had. I wish I could get it in TX.

[BC-Axeman]

David. It didn't even occur to me to ask him if he was related. Even after he mentioned his winery was in the hills above Tobin James' place.

[innova]

Is it true about '07 or am I just experiencing a placebo effect?

Do not adjust your palate, it's working fine :D

While not to be followed as gospel, vintage charts are a good way to get a 5000 ft view, you'll find 2007 was indeed a good year for cali.

http://enobytes.org/wine_blog/2011/01/04/vintage-charts-january-2011/

hth,

-innova

[mosesbotbol]

What are your thoughts on the 5yr, 10yr and maybe 20yr, Sercial vs Malmsey vs Bual?

Sercial is one of the driest styles of port. Malmsey is the sweetest and Bual is close to Malmsey. Sercial is not for everyone. Just as the Verdelho is on the dry side too.

5 years is not enough for Madeira for me. Broadbents 5 year is pretty good for that age, but if you can swing 10 year it's worth it.

There's not much for 20 year. 15 seems to be the next after 10. Broadbents 1996 Colheita is good too. I split a case with my accountant, but have not tried it yet. He likes it.

[BC-Axeman]

I just met a Paso Robles winemaker named David James at a cigar lounge (Perfecto) here. There is some kind of Syrah Days or something like that going on and he was exhibiting an '05 he made. He stopped in for a cigar and opened up a bottle for tasting. Very nice. Good mixture of oak, no brett :D and a smooth long finish. You never know who you will meet.

David James or Tobin James? A friend of mine brought me some Cab and Red Zin from Tobin James Winery in Paso Robles a while back. Some of the best stuff I have ever had. I wish I could get it in TX.

David. It didn't even occur to me to ask him if he was related. Even after he mentioned his winery was in the hills above Tobin James' place.
Hmm...
His name is David Cole. His winery is called James David Cellars. I have no idea where the "James" came from since his website calls out a whole bunch of family members and none are named James. Maybe his name is James David Cole. I always have a problem with two first names, keeping them straight.

[JohnnyFlake]

Sercial is one of the driest styles of port. Malmsey is the sweetest and Bual is close to Malmsey. Sercial is not for everyone. Just as the Verdelho is on the dry side too.

5 years is not enough for Madeira for me. Broadbents 5 year is pretty good for that age, but if you can swing 10 year it's worth it.

There's not much for 20 year. 15 seems to be the next after 10. Broadbents 1996 Colheita is good too. I split a case with my accountant, but have not tried it yet. He likes it.

Thanks for you input.

I'm going to pick up a 10yr Bual and/or Verdeho this weekend to try. I have noticed you seem to like Broadbents. I am not sure if I can find that brand around my area (Henderson, Nevada). Blandy & Sandman are the most common. What others brands do you suggest?

Also, what is Colheita? Is that a brand or a style of Madeira?

[mosesbotbol]

Thanks for you input.

I'm going to pick up a 10yr Bual and/or Verdeho this weekend to try. I have noticed you seem to like Broadbents. I am not sure if I can find that brand around my area (Henderson, Nevada). Blandy & Sandman are the most common. What others brands do you suggest?

Also, what is Colheita? Is that a brand or a style of Madeira?

Broadbent is made by Justino which is a brand to look for, but Broadbent's blends are better for some reason. Justino is popular in New England. D'Oliveiras and Barbeito are real good names. RWC Historic Series is by Barbeito.

Blandy's Alvada is worth a blend of vintages.

Colheita means harvest and is usually like the vintage year. With Broadbent I am not sure what exactly the Colheita means. It is not a vintage Madeira as far as I know. Will have to visit their site. Broadbent Selections has a great portfolio of wine, port and madeira. Try to get your B&M to pick up some of their offerings.

[landhoney]

There's not much for 20 year. 15 seems to be the next after 10.

Isn't this because at 21 years old it can be declared with a vintage date?

[rizzle]

I want to taste brett. Tell me a wine that has it and what to look for when I drink it.

[mosesbotbol]

I want to taste brett. Tell me a wine that has it and what to look for when I drink it.

Beaucastel CdP or Pegau CdP tend to have it. Your luck, you'll score a perfect bottle without Brett showing, lol...

Imagine a barn yard taste similar to the same smell in a new box of cigars...

[mosesbotbol]

Isn't this because at 21 years old it can be declared with a vintage date?

21 is not a recognized vintage. I think it's about 20 years for Madeira to be vintage. Would have to look it up to verify. It's much longer than for vintage port which is three years.

[landhoney]

21 is not a recognized vintage. I think it's about 20 years for Madeira to be vintage. Would have to look it up to verify. It's much longer than for vintage port which is three years.

Yep, not sure why I thought it was 21, but I guess it is 20. In any case, I imagine the reason you don't see 20 year old Madeira listed as such is because once it gets that old they can put a vintage on it, correct?

[TheRiddick]

Beaucastel CdP or Pegau CdP tend to have it. Your luck, you'll score a perfect bottle without Brett showing, lol...

Imagine a barn yard taste similar to the same smell in a new box of cigars...


There are no "perfect" bottles when it comes to Pegau and Beau, they simply may have "less" brett to show if properly stored in colder cellars, but they all have brett. Another good candidate is older Jaboulet (prior to mid to late '90s).

Best way is to decant these, brett gets nasty when mixed with air and "warmer" temps. Above wines are not cheap, BTW.

Another way is to go a beer supply and ask them for brett cultures, mix them with any wine of your choice, guys there should be able to give you instructions on how to innoculate a bottle of wine with brett, cheap and efficient. That might be your best bet at tasting same wine with and without brett (buy a cheap bottle of clean wine, say, a Fetzer/Beringer/Sebastiani red).

[mosesbotbol]

Yep, not sure why I thought it was 21, but I guess it is 20. In any case, I imagine the reason you don't see 20 year old Madeira listed as such is because once it gets that old they can put a vintage on it, correct?

They may just keep it on hand in pipes to blend their 5-10-15 year Madeira too.

[landhoney]

Another way is to go a beer supply and ask them for brett cultures, mix them with any wine of your choice, guys there should be able to give you instructions on how to innoculate a bottle of wine with brett, cheap and efficient. That might be your best bet at tasting same wine with and without brett (buy a cheap bottle of clean wine, say, a Fetzer/Beringer/Sebastiani red).

Interesting idea, I like it. Easy to do a side by side comparison as well, but you forgot the waiting part, especially in a relatively (compared to unfermented beer) dry wine it will probably take at least a few weeks to show up in the taste, correct? I really have no idea as this method is pretty unique.

Also, if you go this route make sure the mixed culture does not contain Lactobacillus or Pediococcus, many of the mixed cultures that contain Brett for beer brewing contain one or both of these as well as a normal yeast strain. They sell the individual Brett strains on their own, but I think most all of the mixed cultures have Sacc, Lacto, and/or Pedio (Lambic Blend, Roeselare, Berliner Weisse, etc.)

[JohnnyFlake]

21 is not a recognized vintage. I think it's about 20 years for Madeira to be vintage. Would have to look it up to verify. It's much longer than for vintage port which is three years.

I looked it up and for a Madeira to be considered as vintage, in modern times (?), it must spend a minimum of 20 years in a cask. Any anything older is also vintage and the longer the better it should be. In the old days (?) it was often left in a cask for as long as 30 and even 40 years. Very old Madeiras are considered impeccable wines.

(?), I have no idea what modern times or the old days mean, with respect to actual dates.

[mosesbotbol]

I bet there are pipes going back 100+ years that are still being bottled. The thing nice with vintage port is that the bottle is that old too.

[rizzle]

Beaucastel CdP or Pegau CdP tend to have it. Your luck, you'll score a perfect bottle without Brett showing, lol...

Imagine a barn yard taste similar to the same smell in a new box of cigars...

There are no "perfect" bottles when it comes to Pegau and Beau, they simply may have "less" brett to show if properly stored in colder cellars, but they all have brett. Another good candidate is older Jaboulet (prior to mid to late '90s).

Best way is to decant these, brett gets nasty when mixed with air and "warmer" temps. Above wines are not cheap, BTW.

Another way is to go a beer supply and ask them for brett cultures, mix them with any wine of your choice, guys there should be able to give you instructions on how to innoculate a bottle of wine with brett, cheap and efficient. That might be your best bet at tasting same wine with and without brett (buy a cheap bottle of clean wine, say, a Fetzer/Beringer/Sebastiani red).

Interesting idea, I like it. Easy to do a side by side comparison as well, but you forgot the waiting part, especially in a relatively (compared to unfermented beer) dry wine it will probably take at least a few weeks to show up in the taste, correct? I really have no idea as this method is pretty unique.

Also, if you go this route make sure the mixed culture does not contain Lactobacillus or Pediococcus, many of the mixed cultures that contain Brett for beer brewing contain one or both of these as well as a normal yeast strain. They sell the individual Brett strains on their own, but I think most all of the mixed cultures have Sacc, Lacto, and/or Pedio (Lambic Blend, Roeselare, Berliner Weisse, etc.)

Man, y'all are getting all scientific with me now. I think I'd rather buy one than put on my Thomas Dolby hat and try to innoculate it myself, especially after reading the stuff Seth wrote...that cillus and coccus stuff sounds bad. :D

How "not cheap" is not cheap, Greg?

And thanks for the replies guys, I know it may sound like an odd request, but I'd like to know what this stuff is I keep hearing you guys talk about.

[rizzle]

Whoa...check out what I want to subject myself to.

The Aroma and Flavour of Brett Character

But what is Brett character and how and why does it appear in some wines? The wine character described as "Bretty" comes in various forms. It is the combined result of the creation of a number of compounds by the yeast Brettanomyces bruxellensis, and its close relative, Dekkera bruxulensis. The three most important known aroma active compounds are 1) 4-ethyl phenol (4-ep), which has been variously described as having the aromas of Band-aids®, antiseptic and horse stable 2) 4-ethyl guaiacol (4-eg) which has a rather pleasant aroma of smoked bacon, spice or cloves and 3) isovaleric acid which has an unpleasant smell of sweaty animals, cheese and rancidity. Other characters associated with Brett include wet dog, creosote, burnt beans, rotting vegetation, plastic and (but not exclusively caused by Brett) mouse cage aroma and vinegar

http://www.aromadictionary.com/articles/brettanomyces_article.html

That just sounds nasty. :r

[TheRiddick]

Parker LOVES this sh#t! Openly admits to it and on top of that, teaches others they should LOVE this as well. And then people ask me why I so disagree with Parker's notes so often, his palate has been destroyed for years now and he actually gives higher scores to wines with brett (also his own admission).

Its really nasty stuff and it spreads like wildfire in the winery.

[landhoney]

Man, y'all are getting all scientific with me now. I think I'd rather buy one than put on my Thomas Dolby hat and try to innoculate it myself, especially after reading the stuff Seth wrote...that cillus and coccus stuff sounds bad. :D

How "not cheap" is not cheap, Greg?

And thanks for the replies guys, I know it may sound like an odd request, but I'd like to know what this stuff is I keep hearing you guys talk about.

Well its sounds bad....for wine....not beers...not some beers at least. Lacto and Pedio are mostly responsible for the sour taste in sour/wild ales (like Berliner Wessie, Lambics, Flanders Ales) which to people like myself are amongst the best beers in the world.

I have a pretty good idea of what is out there in terms of homebrew cultures, and a lot of the mixed ones out there have these bacteria in them, and if you were to use them it would affect the taste of the wine (sourness, etc) and you would not just get the pure Brett character you're looking for. But it's easy to get several individual Brett strains to use, Wyeast Lab has the following:

Brettanomyces bruxellensis
Brettanomyces lambicus

These are two different strains of Brett...and just Brett, nothing else so you could get a pure result.

[landhoney]

Whoa...check out what I want to subject myself to.



http://www.aromadictionary.com/articles/brettanomyces_article.html

That just sounds nasty. :r

It's not all bad though, again at least in beer, the current 9th highest rated beer in the world on beeradvocate uses Brett to achieve a unique flavor profile. :tu

[mosesbotbol]

Parker LOVES this sh#t! Openly admits to it and on top of that, teaches others they should LOVE this as well.

One could argue if these wines have always had Brett that it could be considered part of their terrior, no? I don't mind a little in them, it adds to complexity, but can spread and dominate very easily too.

[TheRiddick]

Moses,

If by "terroir" you mean filthy wineries, then sure, its "terroir". A good friend of mine visited Pegau and was disgusted when he walked into the cellar/winery, mold, crap all over the walls and barrels. That was the last time he even contemplated buying a bottle.

We're back to the discussion we had before. If I pour bretty wine for you , will you be able to tell me the varietal? The answers, both short and long, are No and No Way in Hell. How's that "terroir" when brett in France manifests itself exactly same way brett in Mongolia does?

And how do you control how "little" brett there is? Inquiring minds want to know. You sound like you are a Parker faithful... Repeating same old Parker myths in same exact ways and sentences.
.
.
.
.
.
Wine and beer brett cultivars are different animals/strains. Main reason brett in beer works and brett in wine doesn't.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Do we have a big enough following in the Wine thread to post up recent purchases? I'm always curious what bottles people are buying and why. Pics would be good too. I can post up some of my stash later.

[mosesbotbol]

Moses,

If by "terroir" you mean filthy wineries, then sure, its "terroir".

And how do you control how "little" brett there is? Inquiring minds want to know. You sound like you are a Parker faithful... Repeating same old Parker myths in same exact ways and sentences.

I am not a Parker faithful. I fret reading any of his vintage port reviews and he hasn't even been to the Douro. How can the biggest wine critic not visit the most grand and majestic wine region in the world? The Douro could be one of the wonders of the world.

Take a look at Niepoort. They are among the elite in port houses, yet their lodge in Gaia is so mold riddled, I couldn't stay in the cellar for 20 minutes without sneezing. If their cellar was home, it would be condemned.


Brett is perception. If you taste it, it's there, if it's really strong, then it's strong. If you drink a wine and only taste a little; maybe it's pop and pour, maybe it's cooler temp??? I don't know. Just like TCA or bottle aging; it varies person to person.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Picked up a bottle of 2007 Priest Ranch Cab and their 07 petite sirah. Both were recommended by a good friend. Anyone drink these yet?

[TheRiddick]

Moses,

Bottle aging IS personal taste and preference, many love tannic wines, many don't, any don't care either way. Not so with brett and TCA, they are physical faults and there is no such thing as "little" as they only gather strength with air contact. Ask Vinquiry and what they think of either one, they are clearly wine faults wine labs are looking for first and foremost. Half the Burgundy and Oregon Pinots are bretty and I have no idea how people even consider drinking those, I have yet to find a person who prefers rotten food (and there is no other way to explain brett for what it is). Would you eat a rotten apple? Something tells me you wouldn't.

If one doesn't smell either brett or TCA when they are clearly present in wine, then all I can say is one shouldn't rely on one's nose and palate too much.

I once tasted with a CA State wine competition judge, in a blind setting, and she simply could not pick up on a bottle so obviously bretty all 4 winemakers at the table couldn't and wouldn't even taste the wine it was so foul. And yes, she voted that bottle her Number 1 in the flight (although I am not sure if she simply did that to spite us). Best known wine blogger, also at the table, couldn't pick up on the brett as well and voted along with her, but then again he rates every bottle he tastes in the 8-10 (on 1 to 10 scale) and in his mind there are no bad bottles. Too bad that too many consumers simply follow others' recommendations without educating themselves on the subject.

[mosesbotbol]

If one doesn't smell either brett or TCA when they are clearly present in wine, then all I can say is one shouldn't rely on one's nose and palate too much.

TCA is very subjective. I was at a port wine tasting with one of the most respected port wine experts in the world. He was the only one who did not notice TCA on one flight of port we had. I've heard that some can't discern TCA very easily. I can, but could hardly tell if it's oriental spice or spice box...

Bottle aging IS personal taste and preference, many love tannic wines, many don't, any don't care either way. Not so with brett and TCA, they are physical faults and there is no such thing as "little" as they only gather strength with air contact.

That is why I mentioned pop and pouring some wines might go right beyond someone detecting either. If they were pop and pour and being judged, then those faults aren't as big.

[TheRiddick]

... I was at a port wine tasting with one of the most respected port wine experts in the world...

You're talking about Roy?

[mosesbotbol]

Here's a rarity that I am not sure I posted here. Had this in Scottsdale. Who says CA can't make good Pinot? This fooled our French guests, they thought it was a mature Burgundy just as they should think so...

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh39/mosesbotbol/bv1968.jpg

[TheRiddick]

Moses,

That wine was made by Chelischev, he's really the Godfather of Cal Pinot, historically speaking. And fruit for this one was grown in Napa, no less. If you want to try some seriously good Pinot and Chard from Napa you should look for El Molino label, that's all they do and they do it well, year in and year out.

[mosesbotbol]

Sounds good. I buy a lot of Diamond Creek, so I have Cab's covered from CA. Going to take a look for El Molino. If you have any good sources, please PM.

[LasciviousXXX]

Had a bottle of '08 Amadieu Grand Roman Gigondas last night. Picked it up last week from Total Wine on special. A very tasty Rhone :tu

[OnlyDryReds]

Other evening wive and I had a bottle of '05 reserve Pinot Noir Robert Mondovi I forgot I had in cellar....didnt think it aged bad at all :)

[mosesbotbol]

Other evening wive and I had a bottle of '05 reserve Pinot Noir Robert Mondovi I forgot I had in cellar....didnt think it aged bad at all :)

Why shouldn't it? I have had Cali Pinot 30+ years old that was drinking fine.

[TheRiddick]

Why shouldn't it? I have had Cali Pinot 30+ years old that was drinking fine.

Because all the "professional experts" out there tell people Cal Pinot doesn't age, never mind that very few of them even drink Cal Pinot to begin with. I've had some pretty old bottles, like you said, that were simply outstanding.

'05 Cal Pinots are still young.

[OnlyDryReds]

Why shouldn't it? I have had Cali Pinot 30+ years old that was drinking fine.

My :2 I really didnt think a 12 dollar of Mondavi would be a good contender to lay down for a while. ( Yea I know 2005 isnt a while either )

[BC-Axeman]

I'm drinking a 2000 Byington Bates Ranch Cab. This is our local winery. An excellent vintage back then, it is unreal now. Smooth, velvety, rich, complex. I tried to pick some flavors out but the complexity makes it too hard for me. Nothing bad at all, to me. It was about a $25 wine back in '02. Probably all gone now. I have one bottle left.
Cheers!

[mosesbotbol]

Not much action in this thread, so here's my Memorial Day wine for the a smoked lamb shoulder.

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh39/mosesbotbol/DSCN4515.jpg

2000 Chateau Colombier-Monpelou
1992 Diamond Creek "Red Rock Terrace"

[mosesbotbol]

I don’t get to drink a lot of CA wines; this was a treat. Merlot has a bad name, but when done right, it’s no wonder why it’s a primary varietal of most Bordeaux. I wash CA would push blended wines further.

Last night we drank a wonderful expression of Merlot; 1993 Stags Leap Napa Merlot. It was really dark in the glass like it could be 2003 vintage. Ripe, perfumed with tobacco and port-like flavors. Hints of eucalyptus, spice, and dark fruit still showing well. This bottle can go another 10+ years without question. The finish was medium length with lightly chalky tannins. 93 points.

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh39/mosesbotbol/DSCN4524.jpg

[BC-Axeman]

I don’t get to drink a lot of CA wines; this was a treat. Merlot has a bad name, but when done right, it’s no wonder why it’s a primary varietal of most Bordeaux. I wish CA would push blended wines further
Me too! Although I have about twenty bottles of blends that are some of my favorites.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Not much action in this thread, so here's my Memorial Day wine for the a smoked lamb shoulder.

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh39/mosesbotbol/DSCN4515.jpg

2000 Chateau Colombier-Monpelou
1992 Diamond Creek "Red Rock Terrace"

Some serious wine there. I would love to sample some older Diamond Creek. Out of Cali, they are a top producer for me.

My recent bottles I've picked up over the last month or so:

2007 Patrick Lesec Les Galets Blonds
2005 Chateau Beausejour Becot
NV Jose Dhondt Blanc De Blanc
1999 Delamotte Brut Blanc De Blancs

I've been picking up some decent bottles of 2007 Cali cabs too. 2007 seems to be a good year, one that I actually enjoy for a change from Cali. Mondavi Reserve, Merus, Rubicon, Kathryn Hall all were very good. I'm very interested to know how the 2007 Diamond Creek red rock cab is.

[mosesbotbol]

Some serious wine there. I would love to sample some older Diamond Creek. Out of Cali, they are a top producer for me.

1999 Delamotte Brut Blanc De Blancs


I have had about a dozen older Diamond Creeks from the 70's on, and all have been fantastic. Some take a while to open up, but they are all one could wish for in CA Cabs. DC is one brand I buy older wines blind with good confidence.

I bet your Delamotte is going to be fun!

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

I have had about a dozen older Diamond Creeks from the 70's on, and all have been fantastic. Some take a while to open up, but they are all one could wish for in CA Cabs. DC is one brand I buy older wines blind with good confidence.

I bet your Delamotte is going to be fun!

Delamotte makes it possible to taste a little bit of Salon. Not exactly Salon no, but Champagne Delamotte holds its own to just about any house, in my limited opinoin. The more I drink real grower champagne, the more I respect it and love it now. I really can't wait to pop the 1999!!

Moses, you should really check out the Jose Dhondt. Such a great NV!

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=263281

[WyGuy]

Has anyone tried the Cosentino Cigarzin? I've gone through a few bottles of these, and definitely recommend giving it a try.

[mmblz]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/connoisseur.png

[LasciviousXXX]

Drank most of this bottle this morning after work.... great stuff!



http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o278/LasciviousXXX/ec5bd189.jpg

[eber]

some notable bottles that I have had of late:

1997 Groth Oakville Cabernet Sauvignon
---this was a great bottle, good juicy dark red fruit, mellowed tannins but still there. This wine could still go for a few more (~3) years.
1993 Ferrari-Carano Tresor
--- opened 2 bottles for a family dinner, this wine is still showing well if you like that aged bordeaux flavor, the fruit is fading, on the pallet it is quite earthy and hints of mushroom came through, huge complex nose. This vintage is on its last legs IMHO, it should be drunk sooner than later.

[mmblz]

Goldeneye Gowan Creek Pinot Noir

yum

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Goldeneye Gowan Creek Pinot Noir

yum

Did some reading one this one, sounds like a great bottle.

[RGD.]

Few months ago I had a bottle of this at a friends house and, taste being subjective, thought it was an excellent drink. So got around to picking up a few bottles. If you can, might want to give it a go. From what I understand stock is pretty low now.

2006 Tomaiolo Morellino di Scansano (95 points)

http://www.dgdesigns.com/humidor/cigarasylum/2006-Tomaiolo.jpg

Ron

[mosesbotbol]

Few months ago I had a bottle of this at a friends house and, taste being subjective, thought it was an excellent drink. So got around to picking up a few bottles. If you can, might want to give it a go. From what I understand stock is pretty low now.

2006 Tomaiolo Morellino di Scansano (95 points)

http://www.dgdesigns.com/humidor/cigarasylum/2006-Tomaiolo.jpg

Ron

How much were those selling for?

WS's last review was for 2004 and it was $14 a bottle. Tuscan wines (as are most Italian wines) really underpriced right now, so for sure it is wise to stock up.

Yesterday, I picked up a case and 3 extra bottles of 2007 Dezanni "La luna e le stelle" Barbera d'Asti at Costco. My local Costco has independent wine buyers who pick up a pallet of this-and-that, that sells out stupid quickly at rock bottom prices. I went to Costco to buy coffee beans and walked out with a case of wine! Packaged in wood too for $10 a bottle!

I had one bottle last night at a friend's house and everyone loved it. I have one more to try at my house and one bottle to put in the cellar (to keep me from opening the case) to evaluate its development.

http://www.gourmetodling.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/la-luna1.jpg

[RGD.]

How much were those selling for?

WS's last review was for 2004 and it was $14 a bottle. Tuscan wines (as are most Italian wines) really underpriced right now, so for sure it is wise to stock up.

$12 a bottle - free shipping on six or more.


Ron

[mosesbotbol]

$12 a bottle - free shipping on six or more.


Ron

Good score! :tu

[BUC WHITE]

Height-Brown Picnic Red. Its a Connecticut vineyard and runs about $17 a bottle. It has a touch of sweetness, but not too sweet. thats my go to right now
http://i818.photobucket.com/albums/zz109/thegodsmeg5/height.jpg

[BC-Axeman]

:drMmmmm, wine. That's all.:al

[eber]

Just had a 1995 Ferrari-Carano Tresor tonight with some family, what a difference between this and the 1993, much bigger juicy red fruit with hints of cedar, a great wine with plenty of life left

http://jerichowine.com/images/products/f/Ferrari-Carano_Tresor.jpg

[TheRiddick]

Just had a 1995 Ferrari-Carano Tresor tonight with some family, what a difference between this and the 1993, much bigger juicy red fruit with hints of cedar, a great wine with plenty of life left

http://jerichowine.com/images/products/f/Ferrari-Carano_Tresor.jpg

You're comparing two very different vintages. 1995 was by far among the best in the past I have no idea how many years, similar to 2001 and 2005. 1993 was, well, similar to 1998 and 2008 (very bad that is).

[eber]

You're comparing two very different vintages. 1995 was by far among the best in the past I have no idea how many years, similar to 2001 and 2005. 1993 was, well, similar to 1998 and 2008 (very bad that is).

It is pretty interesting to taste the difference between the two vintages, I wouldn't say that the 1993 was bad but definitely not nearly as good as the 1995, I am glad I have 1 more bottle.

[mosesbotbol]

I never had seen that bottlling of Ferrari-Carano.

[AdamC]

Had a 06' Clos Du Bois last night it was my first Cab I ever tried 2 years ago. Still love it. Funny I used to hate Red Wines, and drank sweet whites (ice wine, Reisling), now I don't like them.
Have my taste matured or is it just in my head?

[eber]

I never had seen that bottlling of Ferrari-Carano.

its a bordeaux blend, I believe it is still in production.

[Melissa]

agreed-hmmmm wine!

[TheRiddick]

I never had seen that bottlling of Ferrari-Carano.

Their high end for some time now. In Bay Area its all over the place, not sure how much of it makes it out of Bay Area, but then you can say that about many other CA wines. CA wine selection on the Right Coast is piss pour, even at best shops. Interestingly enough, West Coast shops also have better selection of Old World wines as well. We seem to be drinking better :banger

[Melissa]

Greg you have great taste in wine. What were the last couple of bottles you brought with you to Eric's herf?

[TheRiddick]

You mean Saxum Syrah and Turley Zin? We had others that day...

[BC-Axeman]

I always loose track after the fourth or fifth bottle, too.

[mosesbotbol]

. Interestingly enough, West Coast shops also have better selection of Old World wines as well. We seem to be drinking better :banger


I don't think they'll get as low a price as here. I've been buying 2000 Ch Fortia CdP for $11 and no sales tax in MA.

[TheRiddick]

I always loose track after the fourth or fifth bottle, too.

Lance, I can name ALL the wines we consumed that day and the order we drank them in. The herf was back in April, IIRC? :D

[BC-Axeman]

Lance, I can name ALL the wines we consumed that day and the order we drank them in. The herf was back in April, IIRC? :D
Is that a challenge? :D
Drinking herf is ON!!!:su
(J/K) I don't ever drink to excess any more.

[Melissa]

You mean Saxum Syrah and Turley Zin? We had others that day...

yes, those were the names I was looking for.
drinking too much might occur at a herf but I rarely do.
I however more than likely forget the names of people
i meet, cigars
i smoke and wines I drink. Never do I forget a face.

[TheRiddick]

Is that a challenge? :D
Drinking herf is ON!!!:su
(J/K) I don't ever drink to excess any more.

Hmmm... Easy pickings, my friend :D I've been running wine tastings since late '90s, a good number a year, and I can recall most of them, bottles wise as well, up to 30+ bottles at times.

Wine is not meant to be drunk to excess. That's what liquor is for :D

Most of the latter herfs you have missed included a good number of bottles, you just didn't attend. But another drinking herf is a good possibility. I just need to get back from FL first...

[mosesbotbol]

Once the serious part of a wine tasting is done, start pounding them back! It’s not a wine event unless there’s at least 1.5 bottles per person. I like to keep port wine events to at least 1 bottle per person.

Keep the thimbles for sewing!

[TheRiddick]

Once the serious part of a wine tasting is done, start pounding them back! It’s not a wine event unless there’s at least 1.5 bottles per person. I like to keep port wine events to at least 1 bottle per person.

Keep the thimbles for sewing!

Moses, this is funny. About 2 years ago, one in the group, fit 6"6 frame and all, winemaker as well, was screaming at the rest of us for having way too many bottles to taste through and hw he just has hard time keeping up with the rest of us :) Have no idea why one needs to spend 5 mins on a wine, but... That night was roughly 3+ bottles per taster (IIRC, I brought 5 just myself). And yes, once we score and reveal wines (all blind and double blind, never open), as you can imagine most bottles are "emptied". Unless they suck...

We try to "adjust" since, but we never have less than 2+ per person and this on top of other wines we open before we proceed to the official part of the tasting, easy whites and sparklers to calibrate and cleanse the palate. And plenty of food, of course, before, during and after...

[mosesbotbol]

Have no idea why one needs to spend 5 mins on a wine, but...

I don't think 5 minutes on a wine is that much, depending how detailed of a review one wants.

Give me 2 minutes and my score will as close as any of the big names I agree with.

[mosesbotbol]

Here's a picture of a Jean Bourdy tasting I went to the other night. Jura wines are among the longest living and able to age wines available. Their whites can age 150 years no problem. :noon


https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-v9p5GJ0oA0Y/Tp92Koi_PCI/AAAAAAAAA9w/IjuxWi_13HE/w402/photo.jpg

[TheRiddick]

Here's a picture of a Jean Bourdy tasting I went to the other night. Jura wines are among the longest living and able to age wines available. Their whites can age 150 years no problem. :noon


https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-v9p5GJ0oA0Y/Tp92Koi_PCI/AAAAAAAAA9w/IjuxWi_13HE/w402/photo.jpg

Too bad all the so called "professionals" keep telling people its the red wines that age better and longer. In fact, whites age way better and are more affordable to boot (Chenin Blanc, Riesling, Champagnes, Sauternes, etc.)

[mosesbotbol]

Too bad all the so called "professionals" keep telling people its the red wines that age better and longer. In fact, whites age way better and are more affordable to boot (Chenin Blanc, Riesling, Champagnes, Sauternes, etc.)

Any "expert" should know that acidity is what makes for long term aging, not tannin.

What I found interesting from this tasting is that Bourdy says that wine cellars should have seasonal temp swings if you want to age wine a long time. Their cellar goes from freezing to 60 degrees and that steady temp cellars do not age wine for a long time (30+ years) as well.

[TheRiddick]

Any "expert" should know that acidity is what makes for long term aging, not tannin.

What I found interesting from this tasting is that Bourdy says that wine cellars should have seasonal temp swings if you want to age wine a long time. Their cellar goes from freezing to 60 degrees and that steady temp cellars do not age wine for a long time (30+ years) as well.

You're preaching to the choir here, Moses. I was lambasted by the self appointed experts, both consumers and pros, when I pointed out that it is the acidity and not tannin that preserves wine after Jancis Robinson made a statement that tannin is the main preserver. Pointed out a good number of wines, as examples, that don't even see oak, or are aged in very old barrels that are more than neutral, whites that age much longer and better than those using new oak by the simple fact of built-in acidity. Same thing when I took Parker to task on the subject, his arguments fell apart as I took them all down, one by one. No matter, I was the villain in the argument and no matter how stupid and ridiculous Parker's arguments looked his sycophants ran with them as they defended his POV. Still do if you ask them. But Parker and Robinson are not alone, I deal with supposed pros (retail and restaurant buyers) that think same way they were taught never asking the right questions and blindly following what "books say".

Champagne is the perfect example here: No oak aging, plenty of acidity and built-in ability to live and age for a very, very long time.

[BC-Axeman]

I don't know about lonnnnng term aging of whites but some that I have overlooked in my cellar that got to be 15 years old tasted great.
I have always heard that seasonal temp variation is ok but daily swings are damaging. This is the first time I have heard that seasonal variation is desirable. I will worry less about my cellar now.

[TheRiddick]

I don't know about lonnnnng term aging of whites but some that I have overlooked in my cellar that got to be 15 years old tasted great.
I have always heard that seasonal temp variation is ok but daily swings are damaging. This is the first time I have heard that seasonal variation is desirable. I will worry less about my cellar now.

Lance, temp variation issues are overplayed, IMO. Wines are more than sturdy when aging. I do not recommend allowing them to go through wild temp swings, but even daily up and down swings of a few degrees are fine. Most in my tasting group have wine cellars of some sort, I simply keep one room in the house cooled down (can't afford anything that could hold 60-80+ cases) and wines that I bring to tastings never show any storage issues. We're talking 60-74F temps depending on season.

[mosesbotbol]

I have a natural cellar that sees seasonal swings and have been using it over 15 years. The oldest bottles are as nice as one would want of "good provenance" bottles. I see little reason to modify except for increased humdity which does not bode well in an open home cellar next

[mosesbotbol]

Here's a cool bottle I can't wait to try:

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/376888_10150349547128277_684888276_8386864_5836998 24_n.jpg

[kelmac07]

A few pick-ups for Kellie. Been hunting down the Roscato for about six months now. Kept getting told there was no such thing as a red moscato...but I kept on hunting. Perseverance paid off!! :D :D

http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv82/kelmac07_photo/IMG_4253.jpg

[G G]

Mac is the red moscato sweet or semi sweet?

[kelmac07]

Mac is the red moscato sweet or semi sweet?

Supposed to be sweet...as the regular white moscato is a very sweet wine. The red moscato is supposed to have hints of berry to it. Haven't cracked a bottle yet.

[Boogie2dope]

I saw a red moscato at Kroger's of all places just a few days ago.

Also, I picked up a a bottle of Penfold's Grandfather Port last Friday after a tasting here in Columbus. Grahams 20 year tawny was my favorite, until now! Recommended for any lovers of Port Wine.

[South Shield]

This is my absolute favorite wine right now. 100% Cabernet.

https://p.twimg.com/AdhsXHRCQAAYKgz.jpg:large

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Opened my first bottle of 2007 Robert Mondavi Oakville Cabernet Sauvignon. Drinking great right now. Decanted about 2 hours. Some great values in 07 cabs from Cali. I need to stack a few more mid range priced 07's away. Also opened a 2006 Peju Cab Franc. Wow. what a wine. Great earthy flavors, and some forest floor action going on. Not as much oak character as one would expect. This is a wine for the old world wine drinkers to check out.

[mmblz]

Also opened a 2006 Peju Cab Franc. Wow. what a wine. Great earthy flavors, and some forest floor action going on. Not as much oak character as one would expect. This is a wine for the old world wine drinkers to check out.

I have an 05 Reserve in the basement. Peju makes some very good wines.

[mosesbotbol]

Opened my first bottle of 2007 Robert Mondavi Oakville Cabernet Sauvignon. Drinking great right now. Decanted about 2 hours. Some great values in 07 cabs from Cali. I need to stack a few more mid range priced 07's away. Also opened a 2006 Peju Cab Franc. Wow. what a wine. Great earthy flavors, and some forest floor action going on. Not as much oak character as one would expect. This is a wine for the old world wine drinkers to check out.

Where is Peju wines from? I like Cab Franc wines.

[BC-Axeman]

"Earthy" and "forest floor" are not flavors I think about in wine. Living in the forest and tasting earth occasionally may have an affect on that.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Where is Peju wines from? I like Cab Franc wines.

Napa. I had a friend take a vacation in Napa a few months back and he stopped at Peju. He brought back a bunch of good bottles. Napa would be a great trip to make.

[eber]

I have had quite a few Pejus, my Grandparents love them and always bring a few bottles over for family dinners. They have always been solid performers in my book

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

"Earthy" and "forest floor" are not flavors I think about in wine. Living in the forest and tasting earth occasionally may have an affect on that.

Try a cab franc from the Loire Valley. Hard to believe you've never tasted earth/soil in a wine before. I'd also tell you to try a pinot from North Burgundy, but then again unless you like the smell of sh!t, you won't enjoy them. Sh!t is not an aroma anyone thinks about in wine at first thought.

[mosesbotbol]

Try a cab franc from the Loire Valley.
Gamay from Loire can be full of non-fruit driven flavors too. I like Loire Valley wines and they are well priced :banger