Sleep Apnea Support/Questions Thread

[chicken]

My name is Jerry and I have sleep apnea. Getting the sleep study done and using the CPAP machine have been great!

[CigarNut]

I love my CPAP. So does my wife :). I actally bought a second machine (on my dime) -- I have a "full size" Respironics at home:

http://bipapst.respironics.com/images/product_side.jpg


and a much smaller, lighter weight Respironics for travel:

http://www.mseries.respironics.com/images/mseries.jpg (http://mseries.respironics.com/Demo.asp)

The pictures are not to scale -- the travel unit is much smaller than the home unit. The catch with the smaller unit is that it makes more noise.

Peter, make sure you try several different kinds of masks to get one that fits well and that you can sleep with.

[pnoon]

Peter, make sure you try several different kinds of masks to get one that fits well and that you can sleep with.

I will. Thanks.

You can bet I will be using this thread and speaking with one or more of you to get feedback on this life-changing step.

[Don Fernando]

I got the same (full sized) one as you have Michael, just in a different color.

I hope that in a few months, when I am down to a healty weight, I won't be needing it any longer.

[pnoon]

I love my CPAP. So does my wife :). I actally bought a second machine (on my dime) -- I have a "full size" Respironics at home:



Does health insurance typically cover CPAP machines and masks? And what did the second machine cost you?

[PeteSB75]

Does health insurance typically cover CPAP machines and masks? And what did the second machine cost you?

The big machines are not that expensive as medical supplies go, usually run about 3-400 I think. I just pack mine up and carry it with me when I travel. The extra bag is a pain when going through airport security, not heavy, but frequently inspected. I ALWAYS carry it on - I don't want them to lose it on me... I might have to look into that travel one, but I don't know how Sarah will like it, she is typically a fairly light sleeper.

Not sure about your insurance, but mine covered the machine and covers replacement filters/mask/hose about every 3 months. Mine also gave me the option to switch to a new mask (nose pillows in my case) since I didn't like my first one. The DME (durable medical equipment) supplier calls me every few months to ask if I want new supplies, which they ship to me.

[pnoon]

The big machines are not that expensive as medical supplies go, usually run about 3-400 I think. I just pack mine up and carry it with me when I travel. The extra bag is a pain when going through airport security, not heavy, but frequently inspected. I ALWAYS carry it on - I don't want them to lose it on me... I might have to look into that travel one, but I don't know how Sarah will like it, she is typically a fairly light sleeper.

Not sure about your insurance, but mine covered the machine and covers replacement filters/mask/hose about every 3 months. Mine also gave me the option to switch to a new mask (nose pillows in my case) since I didn't like my first one. The DME (durable medical equipment) supplier calls me every few months to ask if I want new supplies, which they ship to me.

Thanks, Pete.

[PeteSB75]

Thanks, Pete.

Not a problem. It's amazing to me how many people, especially men, seem to have this problem, most of them undiagnosed and/or untreated. Glad to hear you are doing something about this - I know after my diagnosis and starting treatment, I felt massively better and had the energy to get my azz to the gym and start working out for the first time in about 10 years. My health is definitely the better for it.

[CigarNut]

Does health insurance typically cover CPAP machines and masks? And what did the second machine cost you?My insurance covered the first machine and covers and a mask and filters every three months. My mask (Aptiva) runs about $100 if I have to pay for it.

The second machine cost me about $1,500 (you can get it for less without the heated humidifier, but I strongly recommend the humidifier -- and you need to make sure your doctor includes that on the prescription if you want one). I got it in 2006 when my job changed and I was going to be traveling more (I got my first CPAP in 1999, and the home machine that I have now I got in 2005).

It was painful trying to carry my CPAP, laptop, and clothing, etc. in one bag, so I opted for the smaller machine.

[BeerAdvocate]

I work for a medical supply company that provides CPAPs and supplies, so if anyone has any questions, please feel free to ask!

[pnoon]

I work for a medical supply company that provides CPAPs and supplies, so if anyone has any questions, please feel free to ask!

Thanks. I'm sure I'll have plenty.

[eber]

Are you sure you wanna do that? Don't you think a 'natural' sleep will give a more honest result?

I was actually given an Ambien when I went in for mine.

[Don Fernando]

My doc told me that sleep medication was a no go for me, not during the test and never again after they saw the results. Only sleepmeds I can take is melatonine.

[htown]

How often should you change your mask and hose?

[Don Fernando]

I change them once a year, but I clean them once a week

[kelmac07]

How often should you change your mask and hose?

I clean mine once a week...and change the hose and mask out every three months. Being retired Army, I get a new one every three months with my insurance.

[pnoon]

Well, I had my follow up today and, as I expected, I have sleep apnea.

Those of you who are familiar with this are probably aware of a measurement call the AHI - which is a composite measure of sleep apnea. Anything over 5 is considered mild and anything over 15 is considered severe. I came in with a 29!

The machine has been ordered and, of course, awaiting approval from my insurance.

[kelmac07]

Well, I had my follow up today and, as I expected, I have sleep apnea.

Those of you who are familiar with this are probably aware of a measurement call the AHI - which is a composite measure of sleep apnea. Anything over 5 is considered mild and anything over 15 is considered severe. I came in with a 29!

The machine has been ordered and, of course, awaiting approval from my insurance.

Stay with it Peter!!

[Smokin Gator]

Well, I had my follow up today and, as I expected, I have sleep apnea.

Those of you who are familiar with this are probably aware of a measurement call the AHI - which is a composite measure of sleep apnea. Anything over 5 is considered mild and anything over 15 is considered severe. I came in with a 29!

The machine has been ordered and, of course, awaiting approval from my insurance.

Get ready to get some much needed rest brother. I have had mine for about a year and half and feel so much better.

[pnoon]

Thanks for the support, fellas.

As part of the follow up, I got my nasal passages and throat scoped. After the local, it was only mildly uncomfortable. Now that the local has worn off, my throat is really sore. Hopefully, the burgundy I am enjoying while preparing pasta with red sauce will dull the pain.

[Cenookie]

Get ready to get some much needed rest brother. I have had mine for about a year and half and feel so much better.

I couldn't agree more with you on this. When I first got my setup it took some getting used to, so stick with it. I found that my biggest issue was with my hoses, seemed to always get in the way. I spent more time waking up and moving the hoses. I found a hose management system call "Hozier" not sure about the spelling:D, anyway the thing suspends the hose above your head. Now I'm sleeping thru the night, waking with more energy and feeling a lot better.

[pnoon]

I couldn't agree more with you on this. When I first got my setup it took some getting used to, so stick with it. I found that my biggest issue was with my hoses, seemed to always get in the way. I spent more time waking up and moving the hoses. I found a hose management system call "Hozier" not sure about the spelling:D, anyway the thing suspends the hose above your head. Now I'm sleeping thru the night, waking with more energy and feeling a lot better.
Glad to hear it.

[BigCat]

Thanks for the support, fellas.

As part of the follow up, I got my nasal passages and throat scoped. After the local, it was only mildly uncomfortable. Now that the local has worn off, my throat is really sore. Hopefully, the burgundy I am enjoying while preparing pasta with red sauce will dull the pain.

Ouch! Consumption of red wine and red sauce sound like the wrong way to soothe a sore throat :D Enjoy. Good luck with the CPAP. Its made a difference for me.

[PeteSB75]

I couldn't agree more with you on this. When I first got my setup it took some getting used to, so stick with it. I found that my biggest issue was with my hoses, seemed to always get in the way. I spent more time waking up and moving the hoses. I found a hose management system call "Hozier" not sure about the spelling:D, anyway the thing suspends the hose above your head. Now I'm sleeping thru the night, waking with more energy and feeling a lot better.

That sounds very complicated. I just make sure mine is between the pillow and the headboard and off to my zzzzzzzzzzzz.

[pnoon]

Ouch! Consumption of red wine and red sauce sound like the wrong way to soothe a sore throat :D Enjoy. Good luck with the CPAP. Its made a difference for me.

You are probably right. But it sure did help. :)

[BigCat]

You are probably right. But it sure did help. :)

Glad to hear it :tu

[Smokin Gator]

By far the hardest thing for me initially was sleeping on my back. I had always slept on my stomach. My wife got me a TemperPedic (sp) pillow that has a little raised part where the curve of your neck goes. It made it much more comfortable for me.

As for the hose... My CPAP is on the nightstand which is on my right when I am laying in bed on my back. I just put the hose under my right arm around the bicep area and it just kind of stays out of my way.

[htown]

It has certainly made a big difference for me. I feel more rested and I no longer snore.

[BigCat]

By far the hardest thing for me initially was sleeping on my back. I had always slept on my stomach. My wife got me a TemperPedic (sp) pillow that has a little raised part where the curve of your neck goes. It made it much more comfortable for me.

As for the hose... My CPAP is on the nightstand which is on my right when I am laying in bed on my back. I just put the hose under my right arm around the bicep area and it just kind of stays out of my way.

I've found that I can still sleep on my stomach if I just use the edge of the pillow. My mask basically hangs off the end. It works well when I feel like reverting back to that. You might want to try it (assuming you haven't already). I still really don't sleep on my back. Mostly side sleeping otherwise. But once in awhile it feels nice to roll over onto my stomach.

[CigarNut]

I've found that I can still sleep on my stomach if I just use the edge of the pillow. My mask basically hangs off the end. It works well when I feel like reverting back to that. You might want to try it (assuming you haven't already). I still really don't sleep on my back. Mostly side sleeping otherwise. But once in awhile it feels nice to roll over onto my stomach.I do the same thing.

The bottom line is that you need to be persistent in order to accommodate the mask and hose while you sleep.

[Emjaysmash]

I dont remember if I updated this or not, but I went back for a second sleep study with the CPAP. I have one ordered for me. my pressure is "+10", the same as my uncle. (Now we have something in common!)

[kelmac07]

I dont remember if I updated this or not, but I went back for a second sleep study with the CPAP. I have one ordered for me. my pressure is "+10", the same as my uncle. (Now we have something in common!)

Stick with it MJ!!

[pnoon]

Got my APAP machine today. It's a CPAP that automatically adjusts the airflow/pressure.

Tonight is my first night with it. I'm optimistic.

[Emjaysmash]

Got my APAP machine today. It's a CPAP that automatically adjusts the airflow/pressure.

Tonight is my first night with it. I'm optimistic.

:tu Good Luck Peter!

[pnoon]

:tu Good Luck Peter!

I appreciate the support.
Thanks.

[SmokeyJoe]

I appreciate the support.
Thanks.

I love mine, Peter... has made a big difference for the better. :tu

[pnoon]

I love mine, Peter... has made a big difference for the better. :tu

I'm hoping for the same, Joe.

[Emjaysmash]

How does an APAP work? Is the a sensor that measures resistance? I thought that during the study the only way they could measure how much pressure was needed was to sort of guesstimate the pressure level as to how much was needed to keep you breathing?

[Don Fernando]

Peter, don't expect miracles in a night, it takes a few days/weeks to get used to the machine and it also takes a few weeks before you notice the difference, but once that happens you wish you had done it years ago.

[pnoon]

Peter, don't expect miracles in a night, it takes a few days/weeks to get used to the machine and it also takes a few weeks before you notice the difference, but once that happens you wish you had done it years ago.

I certainly don't expect overnight miracles. I am eager, though, to settle into a routine.

The first night was cumbersome. Woke up almost every hour. I think mostly due to having the headgear/mask on. The machine was very quiet. I'm not sure the humidifier was working or set properly. Virtually no water was used and I was very dry this morning.

[CigarNut]

Ferdinand is right -- it will take getting used to. You have to learn to cope with the hose and mask without waking up. The good news is that you can and will get used to it. You should also sleep better right away, and your sleep will continue to get better as you get used to your machine, hose, and mask!

BTW, what brand machine do you have and which mask did you decide on?

[pnoon]

I have a REMstar Auto A-Flex and a Respironics System One Heated Humidifier.
http://respironicssleeptherapysystems.respironics.com/

The mask is the ResMed Mirage Quattro.
http://www.resmed.com/us/products/mirage_quattro/mirage-quattro.html?nc=patients

I didn't decide on the mask. My specialist prescribed a full mask and this is the one I was given.

[PeteSB75]

I have a REMstar Auto A-Flex and a Respironics System One Heated Humidifier.
http://respironicssleeptherapysystems.respironics.com/

The mask is the ResMed Mirage Quattro.
http://www.resmed.com/us/products/mirage_quattro/mirage-quattro.html?nc=patients

I didn't decide on the mask. My specialist prescribed a full mask and this is the one I was given.

Not sure about that specific machine, but with my respironics machine, I have to turn the heating element for the humidifier on separately from the compressor.

[FriendlyMan]

Wow:banger
I'm so happy I found this thread. I also have sleep apnea. I most likely have it for years but I just finaly went for the test in September. Because I had a lot of migranes and I'm tired but couldnt sleep during the day and was up a lot during the night.

I'm very much the type of guy that like to try things before giving up.
The test was really bad. The tech was really nasty and very un supportive. She put the full face mask on me and I felt like I'm in a jail with all those wires. But I lived,
At the end I was given a bipap machine and I use the "M" size face mask. It's usualy comfortable when I go to sleep, I like to fall a sleep on my side but I usaly have this thing all most every night at about the same time. After about sleeping 4 - 41/2 I wake up, feel un comfortable and remove the mask. I am sure that those few hours that I sleep with the machine are much deeper and un interupted. But I want to get used to maybe taking it off (and maybe use the bathroom or maybe not) make my self cumfy again and fall back a sleep. Anyone have this issue?
I know I'm makeing improvment but I want to do it right.

Thanks.

[hotreds]

I'm still not finding a difference after a couple months, but so be it. Last visit with the Doc he told me I needed to use the machine, ok. Then again, I didn't feel I had a problem to begin with, the heart nurse wanted me to take the test- I think she thought maybe needing the pacemaker was caused in part by my supposed apnea.

Anybody tried this?

http://www.nomask.com/

[kelmac07]

I'm still not finding a difference after a couple months, but so be it. Last visit with the Doc he told me I needed to use the machine, ok. Then again, I didn't feel I had a problem to begin with, the heart nurse wanted me to take the test- I think she thought maybe needing the pacemaker was caused in part by my supposed apnea.

Anybody tried this?

http://www.nomask.com/

Stick with it Hugh. I say the same thing after using my CPAP for almost 20 months. :D

[pnoon]

Not sure about that specific machine, but with my respironics machine, I have to turn the heating element for the humidifier on separately from the compressor.

Mine is a separate unit but attached. They come apart so I can use the machine without the humidifier if I wanted to. For now, I am using them both.

Heading into night #4. I know I will get used to it soon enough. But I am also fighting a cold with some mild congestion and post-nasal drip. So the adjustment to the mask has been a bit of a challenge. I am determined to make it work, though.

[PeteSB75]

Mine is a separate unit but attached. They come apart so I can use the machine without the humidifier if I wanted to. For now, I am using them both.

Heading into night #4. I know I will get used to it soon enough. But I am also fighting a cold with some mild congestion and post-nasal drip. So the adjustment to the mask has been a bit of a challenge. I am determined to make it work, though.

Dunno about others, but since starting to use my CPAP, I've noticed a marked drop in the intensity and duration of the colds I do get. Whether that's from the stream of warm, moist air flowing through my sinuses every night or just my overall well-being, I can't say.

[CigarNut]

I also find that colds are easier with my CPAP, since the CPAP is pushing air in it seems to keep my nasal passages a little more open. Also, when I have a cold I turn up the heat on my humidifier a notch -- that always helps me.

I have also noticed "little signs" about myself -- if I find myself randomly "sniffing" (frequently) throughout the day -- when I finally do realize it** -- I know that I need to turn up my humnidifier because I am sniffing due to being to dried out.

**most of the day I am in a fog and have no idea what I am doing or why :)

[hotreds]

Actually, I had to discontinue use of the machine when I had my latest cold- I was stopped up and had to breathe thru my mouth. I remain unconvinced about the whole rigamarole, but I reckon I might as well keep using the dang thing as my BOTL here indicate its usage is a positive- and I'll believe them over any brochure that tells me so!

[pnoon]

Actually, I had to discontinue use of the machine when I had my latest cold- I was stopped up and had to breathe thru my mouth. I remain unconvinced about the whole rigamarole, but I reckon I might as well keep using the dang thing as my BOTL here indicate its usage is a positive- and I'll believe them over any brochure that tells me so!

Couldn't you use a full mask, Hugh?
My mask covers my nose and mouth.

[hotreds]

Couldn't you use a full mask, Hugh?
My mask covers my nose and mouth.

I was given just the "nose pillows" as it was observed during my study that I slept with my mouth closed and didn't need the full mask. FWIW. Interesting thing is that when I was traveling recently I didn't use the machine at the hotel(1 night) and sure didn't feel any better or worse. But, with the BOTL here telling me it takes quite sometime to notice a difference- esp. if you weren't feeling bad to begin with- I guess I should use it- and will.

[Tenor CS]

I tried the nose pillows at first. Hated them. When my mouth would fall open, I'd feel a gurgling, choking sensation. My full-face mask is much better.

[hotreds]

Yes, indeedy; opening my fresser makes me choke! Yawning becomes difficult!

[BeerAdvocate]

I tried the nose pillows at first. Hated them. When my mouth would fall open, I'd feel a gurgling, choking sensation. My full-face mask is much better.

You can get a chin strap and that will fix your mouth falling open.

[Tenor CS]

You can get a chin strap and that will fix your mouth falling open.

Tried it, hated it. :(

[Emjaysmash]

I just got my machine today! Going to use it tonight!

[kelmac07]

I just got my machine today! Going to use it tonight!

Great news MJ!! :tu

[CigarNut]

I just got my machine today! Going to use it tonight!May it bring you many nights of peaceful sleep!

[Commander Quan]

I went for a sleep study last night, I'm not sure how successful it was, I don't feel like the amount or quality of my sleep represents how I normally sleep, but I guess I'll see at the follow up in a couple weeks.

[BigCat]

I went for a sleep study last night, I'm not sure how successful it was, I don't feel like the amount or quality of my sleep represents how I normally sleep, but I guess I'll see at the follow up in a couple weeks.

I would've sworn I slept a couple hours max during my sleep study...turns out they got all the intel they needed from me. I bet you'll find the same.

[Emjaysmash]

I would've sworn I slept a couple hours max during my sleep study...turns out they got all the intel they needed from me. I bet you'll find the same.
;tpd;
They know you might have trouble sleeping, but once you are asleep you generally sleep much the same as you would at home. All they need is a few hours of you sleeping to tell if you have it or not.

[Tenor CS]

I felt similarly when I had my study. I got there at 9:30 pm ish, got all hooked up to the machines, didn't fall asleep till at least midnight. They woke me at 5 am to go home. I hardly ever sleep that little at home.

I've had my CPAP since August of last year. Last night was great. I don't have school today, so I could sleep in. Went to bed at 10:00, fell asleep before 11, woke up at around 10:15 this morning. Ahhh, that felt good!

[PeteSB75]

Interesting article and, if it pans out, very positive development for anyone with OSA.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-10456870-247.html

[Emjaysmash]

Interesting article and, if it pans out, very positive development for anyone with OSA.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-10456870-247.html

You gotta have that thing surgically implanted??

I'll stick to my "bad-halloween-costume" mask, thank you.

[pnoon]

You gotta have that thing surgically implanted??

I'll stick to my "bad-halloween-costume" mask, thank you.

:tpd:

I'm starting to get used to the mask/machine. If nothing else, my AHI has gone from a whopping 29 (sleep study prior to CPAP) down to an average of 1.2 over the last 7 days.

[hotreds]

I already have a surgically implanted device in my chest, so I guess this wouldn't work for me!

[Emjaysmash]

:tpd:

I'm starting to get used to the mask/machine. If nothing else, my AHI has gone from a whopping 29 (sleep study prior to CPAP) down to an average of 1.2 over the last 7 days.

...

(Whats an "AHI"?):tu

[pnoon]

...

(Whats an "AHI"?):tu

The apnea-hypopnea index (AHI) is an index of severity that combines apneas and hypopneas. Combining them both gives an overall severity of sleep apnea including sleep disruptions and desaturations (a low level of oxygen in the blood). The apnea-hypopnea index, like the apnea index and hypopnea index, is calculated by dividing the number of apneas and hypopneas by the number of hours of sleep.

Essentially, it is the number of "events" per hour.

[BigCat]

The apnea-hypopnea index (AHI) is an index of severity that combines apneas and hypopneas. Combining them both gives an overall severity of sleep apnea including sleep disruptions and desaturations (a low level of oxygen in the blood). The apnea-hypopnea index, like the apnea index and hypopnea index, is calculated by dividing the number of apneas and hypopneas by the number of hours of sleep.

Essentially, it is the number of "events" per hour.

Anything 5 or less is considered "normal", so at 1.2 you are doing great! If you up the pressure a little bit on the cpap you may be able to get it under 1. My DME left the instruction card for changing the settings on the machine with me when he dropped it off. I'm not sure he was supposed to, but I used it to adjust mine up .5 and saw the AHI drop. I'm not sure that is making any significant difference, but I figure it can't hurt. My doc was impressed when I told him last year.

[hotreds]

So your machine gives you that number? I would be most interested in that if I could find it- kinda proof positive that a difference is being made, even if I don't really feel it.

[BigCat]

So your machine gives you that number? I would be most interested in that if I could find it- kinda proof positive that a difference is being made, even if I don't really feel it.

Yes, a lot of machines have a digital readout that gives you usage statistics and your AHI. I know some don't - my father's, for example. But I think even his has a card that reads the data so that his doctor can review it. Yours should as well. If there isn't any way to track your stats, you should talk to your doctor about getting one. As you say, you don't have any way of knowing if its working otherwise. I'd press hard on that if I were you.

[McSmokey]

I'm scheduled to have a sleep study done in a couple of weeks and my wife is concerned if I need one of these machines that it will be too loud for her to be able to sleep in the same room any thing I can tell her good or bad would be appreciated

[Emjaysmash]

I'm scheduled to have a sleep study done in a couple of weeks and my wife is concerned if I need one of these machines that it will be too loud for her to be able to sleep in the same room any thing I can tell her good or bad would be appreciated

M fathers old machine used to be loud, however machine these days are very quiet. A fan on it's lowest setting is louder.

[hotreds]

Yes, a lot of machines have a digital readout that gives you usage statistics and your AHI. I know some don't - my father's, for example. But I think even his has a card that reads the data so that his doctor can review it. Yours should as well. If there isn't any way to track your stats, you should talk to your doctor about getting one. As you say, you don't have any way of knowing if its working otherwise. I'd press hard on that if I were you.

I will, thanks! And, machines are quite quiet.

[BigCat]

I will, thanks! And, machines are quite quiet.

You're welcome :tu

I'm scheduled to have a sleep study done in a couple of weeks and my wife is concerned if I need one of these machines that it will be too loud for her to be able to sleep in the same room any thing I can tell her good or bad would be appreciated

As others have said, its pretty quite. My wife describes it as white noise.

[Cyclone]

Just saw this thread for the 1st time...

My name is Rudy and I have sleep apnea as well...

I was diagnosed about 5 years... Classic symptoms of snoring excessively, stopping breathing while sleeping, etc.

I was working on a large project where we had weekly update meetings @ 2pm... I would always fall asleep in those meetings... To the point that the other guys would be betting on how long it would take before I fell asleep.

My wife appreciates the fact that I can no longer snore and the sound of the CPAP is just white noise.

My Dad has sleep apnea as well... Before he was diagnosed, he would fall asleep playing cards! He also rolled a car and hit a couple of deer as well.

[Emjaysmash]

Does anyone have any issues with their face being chapped since using the mask? I've just noticed that the corner/side of my mouth is very dry and chapped and I dont really know what else to do about it. Any one else suffering?

[pnoon]

Does anyone have any issues with their face being chapped since using the mask? I've just noticed that the corner/side of my mouth is very dry and chapped and I dont really know what else to do about it. Any one else suffering?

I get that a bit. Using the humidifier helps.

[Emjaysmash]

I get that a bit. Using the humidifier helps.

I use the humidifier every night, on its highest setting. Am I over humidfied?

[eber]

I use the humidifier every night, on its highest setting. Am I over humidfied?

I have similar issues however I tend to sleep with my mouth open and even with the humidifier on high I still wake up with an extremely dry mouth, anyone else have this problem?

[BigCat]

Does anyone have any issues with their face being chapped since using the mask? I've just noticed that the corner/side of my mouth is very dry and chapped and I dont really know what else to do about it. Any one else suffering?

I get a little ring around my mouth where the mask sits sometimes and it seems to be more prevalent during the winter months. I've considered growing a goatee just to deal with it, but have heard that facial hair will hurt the seal. I don't know another solution really, sorry.

[ahc4353]

Would love to read some updates. :)

[Commander Quan]

I had a follow up with the Neurologist a couple weeks ago and she said that I don't have sleep apnea, and that I just snore a lot. Ironically she also said that I could possibly be narcoleptic because I hit REM in 3 minutes.

[kelmac07]

I tried sleeping without my CPAP for one night on my trip to Alaska...I couldn't fall alseep without it. It works like a champ!! :D

[pnoon]

bump.
How's everybody doing?

[icehog3]

bump.
How's everybody doing?

Apparently I still snore pretty badly when I drink a quart of tequila, despite the two somnoplasty surgeries. :r

[pnoon]

CPAP is working for me. It's a a pain but it beats the alternative.

[Smokin Gator]

I can't imagine sleeping without a CPAP. I feel so good in the morning and hardly ever feel like I need an afternoon nap. A few years ago I almost fell asleep at the wheel several times in the mid-afternoon.

A few weeks ago the power went out during the night... I was awake is seconds of the CPAP going off.

[Eleven]

My wife is going for a sleep study soon. All of the classic symptoms of sleep apnea are there, and I can't tell you how glad I am that she is finally going to get checked out.

[hotreds]

Use it, but feel the same when I don't- which is when we travel. I'm thinking that it's a bit of a racket for me. I'm sure it helps some, I just think these folks tell everyone they have apnea after the test, no matter what- mine is "mild" but I still should use the equipment for $250 a month or whatever it is.

[CigarNut]

I really like mine -- I have been using a CPAP for almost 12 years. I sleep better and feel better. The only times I have an issue are when the cushion on my mask starts to get worn out enough that it does not seal as well or when the straps on the mask need to be tightened... Fortunately, my insurance provides me with a new mask every three months.

[Don Fernando]

it looks like my apnea has almost disappeared after losing over 100lbs. Last week, the night after my surgery, I was in the hospital at the medium care. I had a sore throat and decided with the medical staff not to wear my cpap mask, they would monitor my sleep and if they decided that I should wear it anyway they would tell me. I only had 3 or 4 apneas that night, while a couple of years ago I would have have 3 every 2 minutes.

So in a few months, when I lost another 60 of 70lbs, I will file for a new sleep study to see what happens and if I can sleep without my cpap from then.

[kelmac07]

Good for you Ferdie!! :D I can't fall sleep without mine. It's become my security blanket.

[pnoon]

it looks like my apnea has almost disappeared after losing over 100lbs. Last week, the night after my surgery, I was in the hospital at the medium care. I had a sore throat and decided with the medical staff not to wear my cpap mask, they would monitor my sleep and if they decided that I should wear it anyway they would tell me. I only had 3 or 4 apneas that night, while a couple of years ago I would have have 3 every 2 minutes.

So in a few months, when I lost another 60 of 70lbs, I will file for a new sleep study to see what happens and if I can sleep without my cpap from then.

That's great news, Ferd.

[icehog3]

Good news, Ferdinand. :D

I am scheduled for part 2 of my most recent sleep study in early December to get my prescription for CPAP. Hoping it makes the difference for me that so many others say it has made for them.

[Emjaysmash]

Congrats Ferd!!

I've found I sleep much easier with a CPAP. I do tend to sleep with out it, but only when I get really uncomfortable with it on, or I'm willing to sleep that much longer. But that happens maybe once or twice every time I get a break from school.

[CigarNut]

That is great news!

[Don Fernando]

fun part is, the health insurance decided it was time for me to get a new machine. So the service contracter just brought me a brand new respironics cpap, much smaller and better than the old one.

[icehog3]

Used my new (first) CPAP for the first time last night...and woke up with a problem called aerophagia. It seems I swallowed air all night and filled my intestines up with air. The pain was nasty, and my stomach etc is still all messed up. I am not going to use the machine again until I see the doc in person, sounds like I could do some damage to my colon if I continue with this. F**k.

[Emjaysmash]

Used my new (first) CPAP for the first time last night...and woke up with a problem called aerophagia. It seems I swallowed air all night and filled my intestines up with air. The pain was nasty, and my stomach etc is still all messed up. I am not going to use the machine again until I see the doc in person, sounds like I could do some damage to my colon if I continue with this. F**k.

Hoping it gets better Tom! Will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.

[icehog3]

Hoping it gets better Tom! Will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.

Thanks M.J....kinda sucks that the first night using something that I thought might improve my life made the following day so miserable.

I am not giving up, I need to speak to the doc. I understand that sleeping with CPAP itself will take some getting used to....but I am not going to even try to get used to the aerophagia.

[PeteSB75]

Thanks M.J....kinda sucks that the first night using something that I thought might improve my life made the following day so miserable.

I am not giving up, I need to speak to the doc. I understand that sleeping with CPAP itself will take some getting used to....but I am not going to even try to get used to the aerophagia.

Damn Tom, that sucks. You using a full face mask? Is that something the doc said you needed? I've been using my CPAP for about 3 1/2 years now and I've never had that problem.

[kelmac07]

First couple nights are rough Tom. I thought to myself "I will NEVER get used to this." A week later, it became part of my routine. I used a "nose only" mask the first night...opened my mouth and damn near suffocated. The next day I had a "full face" mask and haven't had an issue since (2 1/2 years later). Stick with it brother!! :D

[icehog3]

Damn Tom, that sucks. You using a full face mask? Is that something the doc said you needed? I've been using my CPAP for about 3 1/2 years now and I've never had that problem.

I have the nose only mask....kept waking up snoring because my mouth would open. This was apparently when I was swallowing all the air, Pete.

First couple nights are rough Tom. I thought to myself "I will NEVER get used to this." A week later, it became part of my routine. I used a "nose only" mask the first night...opened my mouth and damn near suffocated. The next day I had a "full face" mask and haven't had an issue since (2 1/2 years later). Stick with it brother!! :D

I am going to inquire about the "full face" mask today, Mac.

Thanks for the support guys. :)

[CigarNut]

I hope you can get in to see your doc soon Tom!

[chicken]

It really does make a difference.

[htown]

I have been using mine for about 2 years and notice a big difference.

[icehog3]

All I notice so far is a big difference in my bloated stomach. :td

[357]

I've been prodding my BIL to get his apnea checked out. He stops breating for over a minute at times. He's probably 5-10 & 260 lbs, so weight is obviously a factor.

Anyway, I'll keep you in my prayers Tom. My step-dad is also a big benefactor of the CPAP machines. I hope you find what configuration works best for you.

[icehog3]

Got a full face mask from my doc today....tried it with a CPAP in the office and it feels much better for me than the nose mask....but I will wait to see how it works at home.

[kelmac07]

Not gonna tell you that you're gonna love it...easier to tolerate...but HUGE difference from the one that doesn't cover your mouth. Sweet dreams!! :D :D

[icehog3]

Not gonna tell you that you're gonna love it...easier to tolerate...but HUGE difference from the one that doesn't cover your mouth. Sweet dreams!! :D :D

Anything that keeps my intestines from inflating and making me look 6 months pregnant will be an improvement Mac! :)

[pnoon]

Best of luck, Tom.
I started with the full face mask and it's worked fine for me.

[FriendlyMan]

Hi,

Sorry for asking but did you get this information some where or you are guessing its air in your stomach?
The reason I'm asking is, I didnt sleep with my machinre for a while becuase I need to go for a new test. I think the Inhale is to strong, 20.0 (the Exhale is 16.0 ) And its waking me all night. This past week I decided to go back on the machine becuase I feel very week and have a had a bad cold. So i decided I'll try it, it didnt help much, the cold is almost gone but the upset stomach symtoms got even worse. I feel like somethings wrong with my stomach. Not sure if its constipation, viral, who knows what. I eat regular and use the bathroom. But I feel very gasy. I feel like something is really going on. Could it be inhaling air? havnt used the machine for three days.



Used my new (first) CPAP for the first time last night...and woke up with a problem called aerophagia. It seems I swallowed air all night and filled my intestines up with air. The pain was nasty, and my stomach etc is still all messed up. I am not going to use the machine again until I see the doc in person, sounds like I could do some damage to my colon if I continue with this. F**k.

[icehog3]

With me it was definitely from inhaling air. My CPAP is set at 14, but I am a mouth breather at night and swallowed air all night long.

Switched to a full face mask and the problem got better and better, to the point where after 3 weeks I don't seem to be swallowing much air at all. Do you use the nasal mask or a full face?

[FriendlyMan]

Its a medium face mask


With me it was definitely from inhaling air. My CPAP is set at 14, but I am a mouth breather at night and swallowed air all night long.

Switched to a full face mask and the problem got better and better, to the point where after 3 weeks I don't seem to be swallowing much air at all. Do you use the nasal mask or a full face?

[icehog3]

Its a medium face mask

Ever try one of those slings to keep your mouth closed while you sleep, or do you think the machine is just too forceful?

[ahc4353]

Ever try one of those slings to keep your mouth closed while you sleep, or do you think the machine is just too forceful?


I went to a full face mask as I couldn't bring myself to wear a sling. (I'm ugly enough as it is. )

[icehog3]

I went to a full face mask as I couldn't bring myself to wear a sling. (I'm ugly enough as it is. )

I have seen myself in both the sling and the mask, and neither is very sexy, AL. ;) :r

[ahc4353]

I have seen myself in both the sling and the mask, and neither is very sexy, AL. ;) :r

:r

With the mask I have Alina convinced I'm a fighter pilot! :D

Whatever works!

[icehog3]

:r

With the mask I have Alina convinced I'm a fighter pilot! :D

Whatever works!

I am asking my doc for a Darth Vader CPAP Mask. ;)

[12stones]

Welcome to the club, Tom. Hope it's getting better for you.

[icehog3]

Thanks Ricky...it was hard to tell if there was any improvement until I had to sleep w/o the mask one night. I think it is starting to make a difference.

[12stones]

Takes a little while to get used to. Wait a few months and then try to sleep without it. ;)

[CigarNut]

Thanks Ricky...it was hard to tell if there was any improvement until I had to sleep w/o the mask one night. I think it is starting to make a difference.That's really good news Tom!

And, you gotta admit -- when you are wearing that mask, that's a real look, isn't it! Really attracts the ladies :)

[OLS]

:r

With the mask I have Alina convinced I'm a fighter pilot! :D


No, it's the fact that everytime you fart in bed at night you mumble "FOX TWO!"

[icehog3]

And, you gotta admit -- when you are wearing that mask, that's a real look, isn't it! Really attracts the ladies :)

Especially ones that have a thing for Hannibal Lector, Michael. ;)

[CigarNut]

That must be it! My wife is turned on my by Hannibal Lector look! (At least she's still turned on :D)

[JaKaacH]

I am asking my doc for a Darth Vader CPAP Mask. ;)

How about a Pee Wee Herman mask..



Not a thread jack, I'm scheduled for a sleep study soon, going back to reading this thread.
Peace out.

[icehog3]

How about a Pee Wee Herman mask..



Not a thread jack, I'm scheduled for a sleep study soon, going back to reading this thread.
Peace out.

I know you are but what am I? :)


Good luck with it, Jeff....let us know how it goes.

[JaKaacH]

I know you are but what am I? :)


Good luck with it, Jeff....let us know how it goes.

My sleep study was last night. The Sleep lab tech said he did not know what they were going to recommend for me because I had very few obstructive events. But he said there was some respiratory rhythm slow downs where oxygen stats changed 4 or 5%. Four or less he said was OK, 4 or above might cause the doctor to look a litter closer for some form of treatment.

With other borderline health concerns, all that can be helped with more exercise and some weight loss, I guess its time to get off my azz and join a gym....:sl

[icehog3]

Sounds like relatively good news Jeff...glad you don't have the full-blown apnea.

[FriendlyMan]

I got a hold of a copy of my new sleep study report. I finally went for the study a week ago. It seems like I'm going to switch over from bipap to cpap. I really don't understand much of this report. Maybe some here could explain it better. Doctor's don't have time for these thing :)

My bipap was set for 16 Exhale 20 Inhale , Im waiting for the doc to writ the Rx but it says here 13cm H20 Cpap on the remarks.

sleep Efficiency:88 percent
Time in bed 416.5 minutes
sleep period time 397.0
Total sleep Time 365.5
Sleep onset 11.5 Minutes


Sleep disruption events Count index
Arousals 47 7.7
Awakenings 18 3.0
Arousals + Awakening 65 10.7

There is more here, if anyone can explain or has more question please ask.

Thanks

[icehog3]

In simple terms, I believe it means that your normal sleep pattern is disturbed 65 times an hour, or more than once every minute. This is right about were mine was when I had my sleep studies, and it is fairly severe sleep apnea.

20 is a real high setting for inhalation, you have the BiPAP (which I do not) which differentiates between inhale and exhale pressure. Mine is a straight CPAP, set at 14. Do you know if your BiPAP will have "ramp time" (starting out at a lower pressure and slowly increasing), or will it start right at 20?

Are you getting a nasal mask or full face mask?

[BigCat]

In simple terms, I believe it means that your normal sleep pattern is disturbed 65 times an hour, or more than once every minute. This is right about were mine was when I had my sleep studies, and it is fairly severe sleep apnea.



I believe the 65 is actually the total number of disturbances for the night, with an average of 10.7 an hour, which is not severe. If I remember correctly, and it has been a few years now since my test, they do not even treat you if it is 5 or less. So I think you're better off than most. Given that number, I'm really surprised you're set at 20. It's possible I'm reading it wrong, but just so you know how I got there:

365.5 minutes of sleep time divided by 60 min/hr = 6.09
65 arousals/awakenings divided by 6.09 = 10.7

[icehog3]

You definitely could be right, Colin. I am no expert at reading the results. I do know that they told me I have 63 disturbances per hour, and set my CPAP at 14...so 20 would seem off the charts for someone with 10-11 per hour.

[pnoon]

I am reasonably certain Colin is correct. The whole numbers represent the events over the full night of sleep. The total average of 10.7 is significant. This number is often referred to as the AHI or Apnea/Hypopnea Index. The AHI is a measure of the number of events per hour. It was explained to me that an event was either a cessation of breathing or blood oxygenation level dipping below 90%.

When I did my sleep study a little over a year ago, my hourly was 29. It was explained to me that anything over 5 is considered moderate sleep apnea and anything over 15 is considered severe. What is interesting to me is that my CPAP is set for 4 and that my AHI is now steady around 0.7-1.1.

[icehog3]

Right...doesn't 20 sound off the chart?

[pnoon]

Right...doesn't 20 sound off the chart?

Yep.
I can't imagine that setting.
Hell, even your setting of 14 seems awfully high.

[icehog3]

Yep.
I can't imagine that setting.
Hell, even your setting of 14 seems awfully high.

63 an hour ain't chicken feed. :r

[ahc4353]

Glad you guys are doing well!

I need to schedule a new test and soon.

[BigCat]

Right...doesn't 20 sound off the chart?

Yep.
I can't imagine that setting.
Hell, even your setting of 14 seems awfully high.

My AHI was in the seventies when I had my test and I was prescribed a setting of 9. My machine monitors my results, or did until I knocked it off the nightstand one night after getting home from a bachelor party, and I adjusted it myself to a 10 to get my AHI down to the .5 range. 20 seems nuts.

[pnoon]

My AHI was in the seventies when I had my test and I was prescribed a setting of 9. My machine monitors my results, or did until I knocked it off the nightstand one night after getting home from a bachelor party, and I adjusted it myself to a 10 to get my AHI down to the .5 range. 20 seems nuts.

Interesting that you can adjust the airflow setting. On mine, the DME provider has to do that on orders from my doctor.

[BigCat]

Interesting that you can adjust the airflow setting. On mine, the DME provider has to do that on orders from my doctor.

My dme left the instructions for adjusting the machine settings when he set me up. I don't know if he was supposed to, but I figured the fine tuning couldn't hurt.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Don Fernando]

Interesting that you can adjust the airflow setting. On mine, the DME provider has to do that on orders from my doctor.

I can change the settings myself

[FriendlyMan]

I'm sorry if I didn't make my self clear before. The one I have now is Bipap but it dose not help me. So I went to for another sleep study at a different center after, over a year of trying.

The new center suggested I change to cpap and the setting should be 13.

So today, The Company got the RX for my cpap machine set at 13, and new mask the Resmed quattro full face mask Large.

Now I have the Comfortfull2 mask Medium and a bipap setting of 16E 20I wow what a change and difference this is. I hope it will make a difference in my nights sleep because I'm falling apart lol.

I should hear from them some time next week. I hope it dosn't take any longer then that.

[ahc4353]

Well, after over a year of being off my machine I am firing it up tonight. If I don't get through the night I'm going to have to schedule a new study.

[hotreds]

I'm still unconvinced. I sleep one or two nights w/o the machine, and don't find a difference. My machine doesn't tell me anything, I can't control anything except the amount of humidity and the amount of time it takes for the unit to fully blast the air. I imagine if the machine told me I had "x" number of episodes it might make me feel better about the damn thing. Oh, well- I'm glad that it appears to be helping many of you!

[ArgusP2]

I've been on a CPAP for about 6 years now. Apparently, I've had sleep apnea since high school. I found out the hard way when I became in involuntary member of the "zipper club" The first night I used the CPAP was the first time I slept for 8 hours straight! My setting is at 15.

[kaisersozei]

I just dug out my consultation report from a year or so ago--my AHI was 17, with minimum O2sat = 84%. I never went back for the titrated study, so I didn't get the nasal cpap. Maybe I will in a few months.

[BigCat]

I'm still unconvinced. I sleep one or two nights w/o the machine, and don't find a difference. My machine doesn't tell me anything, I can't control anything except the amount of humidity and the amount of time it takes for the unit to fully blast the air. I imagine if the machine told me I had "x" number of episodes it might make me feel better about the damn thing. Oh, well- I'm glad that it appears to be helping many of you!

I've been using CPAP for a few years now. I can't honestly say that I feel dramatically different than I recall feeling when I didn't use it. I think I've convinced myself that I do, and maybe that's true. But even if it isn't, the health risks associated with apnea (thickening heart walls, increased risk of stroke, etc.) make it worth complying. You can get a new machine that gives you a read out. If that's what it takes, you should do it. Not trying to stick my nose in where it doesn't belong - just trying to stress the seriousness of the condition.

[pnoon]

I've been using CPAP for a few years now. I can't honestly say that I feel dramatically different than I recall feeling when I didn't use it. I think I've convinced myself that I do, and maybe that's true. But even if it isn't, the health risks associated with apnea (thickening heart walls, increased risk of stroke, etc.) make it worth complying. You can get a new machine that gives you a read out. If that's what it takes, you should do it. Not trying to stick my nose in where it doesn't belong - just trying to stress the seriousness of the condition.
My thoughts and experience exactly.
pre-CPAP, my AHI was 29. With the CPAP, my AHI is between 0.5 an 1.5.
Most certainly worth it IMO.
Posted via Mobile Device

[kelmac07]

Been using my CPAP for almost 3 years and still cannot tell the difference in my sleep. But I continue to use it religiously to prevent the other "bad stuff" from happening. I am certain my family appreciates it (I know my wife does, since she doesn't have to hear my nightly grizzly bear impersonation). Stick with it Hugh!! :D

[baldanders]

Been using my CPAP less then 1 year. I still only sleep 4-5 hours a day but it's a much better sleep and feel a lot more rested when I get up.

[icehog3]

Used my CPAP for a month...unfortunately, the negatives far outweighed the positives for me, so mine has been sitting idle for the last couple months.

[FriendlyMan]

I have to say since I re did my test and started using my new cpap instead of bipap machine in the last week or two started sleeping deeper and I'm just aware of one awakining. I'm still tired during the day, maybe I need more sleep in general but I feel that I made improvment all ready.

[hotreds]

I've been using CPAP for a few years now. I can't honestly say that I feel dramatically different than I recall feeling when I didn't use it. I think I've convinced myself that I do, and maybe that's true. But even if it isn't, the health risks associated with apnea (thickening heart walls, increased risk of stroke, etc.) make it worth complying. You can get a new machine that gives you a read out. If that's what it takes, you should do it. Not trying to stick my nose in where it doesn't belong - just trying to stress the seriousness of the condition.

I appreciate your comments! I'll check into a unit that gives more info- perhaps I do need a little reinforcement that shows that the unit is more than just an annoyance!

[BeerAdvocate]

I work for a DME (Durable Medical Equip) company that specialize in CPAP equipment.
Every single CPAP machine has the ability to record your sleep pattern.
Some require a card that slides in the machine. The newer ones have a modem that attaches to the back so an RT can monitor you remotely.
All you have to do is contact your provider and they should be able to give you a report on how you are actually sleeping with the machine so you can see for yourself if it is making a differance.

[BigCat]

I appreciate your comments! I'll check into a unit that gives more info- perhaps I do need a little reinforcement that shows that the unit is more than just an annoyance!

Excellent! Good luck tracking down the equipment you need.

[ahc4353]

Used my CPAP for a month...unfortunately, the negatives far outweighed the positives for me, so mine has been sitting idle for the last couple months.

Figure out how to correct the negatives young man! :tt :fl

[icehog3]

Figure out how to correct the negatives young man! :tt :fl

The CPAP already did more damage to my body in one month than I can repair in a year, Al, so I have no idea how to solve the issues. :(

[BeerAdvocate]

icehog - have you tried changing to a different type of mask (nasal, fullface, over-the-head...) Having your Dr change the pressure, adding a humidifier.....etc
Have you had an RT download your sleep pattern with the CPAP on?
What do you think the problem is?

[icehog3]

Hi Travis,

My issue has been a problem with both nasal and fullface. I wrote a PM to a friend who inquired, but I see no harm in sharing it with all who have Apnea issues:

I swallow air every night with the CPAP. The first couple nights with the nasal mask, I was so bloated in the mornings I looked like I was 8 1/2 months pregnant, and actually sought medical attention on day 2. They said I am lucky I didn't preforate my colon.

I got the full face mask, and while the swallowing of air was reduced, it was still significant. I tried a chin strap to keep my mouth forced shut, but this did not help.

The bigger problem, that I did not realize until it was too late, was all this stretching of my abdominal wall was causing damage. Now my core muscles are so badly stretched that I cannot work them into my prior level of fitness, which is compounded by making my lower back issues more frequent. It is a vicious cycle, but unless someone can find a way to stop me from swallowing air, I am done with the CPAP. I was hoping for a miracle, but got another, bigger, problem instead.

[357]

Sorry to hear that Tom. I hope you find something that works for you.

[hotreds]

Tom- what have those with MDs after their names told you about this serious problem?

[icehog3]

Tom- what have those with MDs after their names told you about this serious problem?

They told me I will get used to it, and it will get better over time, Hugh.

Not good enough. :2

[CigarNut]

For years I have been using a Respironics CPAP machine -- even when I travel.

http://be8c5029833240ca9038-8a2c38c8946b4d497918152d3d6bf41f.r27.cf1.rackcdn.c om/SystemOneBiPAPAutoWithHumidifier_CKHiLg.jpg

I have a full-size (wheeled) carry-on bag just for my CPAP machine and supplies (I always carry an extra mask and hose, having had issues with both at one time or another and extension cords for power).

The catch is that the machine weighs in at about 10 pounds and by the time you add in all the extras its a lot (both size and weight) to be hauling around.

What makes it worse is that many places that I stay don't have a nightstand big enough for my CPAP. This is compounded further by the fact that often there is no power outlet near the nightstand -- which is why I carry two 25 foot extension cords and have used them both a number of times.

As my wife and I are beginning to travel more, the hassle-factor just got to be too much, so I just purchased a new machine for travel -- the HDM Z1 Auto. The machine weighs in at 10 ounces -- yes less than a pound! The machine itself is 6.3" x 3.5" x 2"

http://hdmusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/z1a-topdown-600-2.jpg

It also can run off of a battery:

http://hdmusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/z1a-powershell.jpg

The battery pack adds 9 ounces and another 1.5" in height. The only drawback is that machine does not have an option for a humidifier. They have a Heat Moisture Exchanger (HME) which helps, but is not the same. In the end, with the battery pack and an extra battery it still comes in at less than 2 pounds fits in the palm of my hand.

I have used it for a couple of days now and it's pretty good -- as quiet as my Respironics. I normally use a lot of water in my humidifier, so I am going to have to get used to that when I travel, but I figure it's worth it.

[pnoon]

:hm

Did you buy just the unit or the cordless with battery pack? And roughly what do they cost?

[CigarNut]

I bought the unit, battery pack and an extra battery -- with all the extras (tubing -- it's different, filters) it came to about $1,300 -- about $300 less than my travel Respironics cost me five years ago. My home machine is "still good" for another year or so, so my insurance would not cover this.

The base price (at cpap.com) is $875 for the ACPAP; they have a special right now where they throw in a second battery when you purchase the battery pack; the special price is $350.

They have a CPAP only machine for $575 that uses the same battery pack.

[pnoon]

Thanks, Michael.

[ArgusP2]

good to know Michael, thanks for the info.