stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet

[Legend]

Had this discussion on some other forums. When I had it on Cbid forum all hell broke loose. So I'll start with some disclaimers

1. I order internet cigars. I will not stop.

2. I do not think internet cigars are bad.

3. I understand that all the big internet guys also have b&m. I'll still refer to them as internet stores. They are different.

4. I understand that many of you think of a smoke shop as a b&m. Its not. The typical smoke shop with a small humidor is not the same as a b&m that actually deals with rocky and nestor and nick. These are smoke shops for the sake of this discussion.

Ok. Here is the basic premise. A B&M has superior cigars to internet.

Definition of terms.

Internet shop: this is the big guys. CI, famous etc.

Smoke shop: see above.

Local B&M: a store dedicated to tobacco and most likely an emphasis on cigars. Deals with makers of cigars and not just distributors.

Reason for discussion: I've noticed that the cigars are very good at the lounge I go to. Usually better than the ones I get myself from internet.

Supporting statements:
1. Side by side tests. I've taken a number of internet cigars into my lounge and bought the same cigar there and smoked them side by side. Even had a few botl try it too and we all thought the local one was better. Even in blind tests.

2. Botl had gone to Honduras and Dominican republic and reported that locals(workers at the factories) had stated that inferior tobacco and piles left laying around in the factory were for internet cigars.

3. Just conjecture here but I think to myself as a businessman. First the big guys want these incredible discounts. Need to use surplus and extra tobacco. Second I know that the small guy is aware of everything that comes into his shop. Whereas the big guy. Not so much. I know that in my business the guy who makes 2 orders a month will probably call me about both. On the other hand the company that orders 100 one of his employees may call every 3 months or so.

Possible other explinations:
1. Time. The local may not sell as fast and therfore the sticks get to age. I don't agree with this because I've gotten them right as my local gas received them. But the point has some merit. Plausible.
2. Storage conditions. Big guys use a warehouse. Local a more closely watched environment. Again reason above makes me think not so but again. Plausible.

Final thoughts: again just my opinion and I will still order and smoke internet cigars. But I think the makers know who their clients are and will give superior product to the local guys. It helps keep them in business when they can't compete price wise and reduces complaints. Try a side by side testing and support you local as much as your budget allows.

Ok fire off!!

[Raralith]

I don't understand your supporting statements since there's isn't a whole lot of support.

1. Were they all blind test? How many did you smoke? How many did you have other people try? This is pretty subjective too...

2. I would love to see someone saying this, or a manufacturing commenting on this. I couldn't find anything to support this either.

3. I can't say I agree with what you are saying. The big guys get incredible discounts because they buy in such large quantities. The supplier is willing to make less margin on each cigar if they can sell ten times that amount. This may or may not effect the tabacoo, but being such a big distributor, if you are out of one cigar, you have 50 others that you can sell in its place. I can't see how a big guy could not be aware of what they are getting either. It's not like they are only employing 2 people, and being such a big distributor, there probably is a customer service and quality control department.

I have tried side by side comparisons, and it rarely ever works out since almost every single B&M I've gone to keeps their cigars at 70RH and its much too wet. When I take them home though and compare, I personally don't see a difference. Cigar wise, I think it would be hard pressed to show impericle evidence that B&M cigars are better than online retailers simply because so much about cigars are all subjective. What probably plays the most important factor is how a B&M stores their cigars. I've seen some that are just terrible, and others very well maintained.

Honestly, a cigar is just a cigar. What makes a good cigar better is perception and mood. Take for example tea; I love tea. Tea's great, and I've got a lot of different brands, variety, and even aged tea. But, the best tea is tea with good friends and company, and even the highest grade tea taste terrible when one is in a foul mood.

[Smokin Gator]

I started considering this... then my head started hurting!! All I know is I like most of the sticks I get online and I like most of the sticks I buy at a B&M.

The sticks I enjoy the most are the ones from friends or that I enjoy with friends.

[tunes]

The sticks I enjoy the most are the ones from friends or that I enjoy with friends.

I agree with Gator :ss

[Legend]

I don't understand your supporting statements since there's isn't a whole lot of support.

1. Were they all blind test? How many did you smoke? How many did you have other people try? This is pretty subjective too...


Honestly, a cigar is just a cigar. What makes a good cigar better is perception and mood. Take for example tea; I love tea. Tea's great, and I've got a lot of different brands, variety, and even aged tea. But, the best tea is tea with good friends and company, and even the highest grade tea taste terrible when one is in a foul mood.

First statement. I couldn't give you an exact number of tests or guys. We do it a lot. Its kind of a game at our lounge. A guy will bring in 4 or 5 sticks. The botl will buy the same and we will test. Sometimes blind sometimes not. The most telling thing is 100% say the local is better. It never fails. This is absolutely subjective but telling none the less.

Your last statement I completely agree with. My best smokes have been on dates with my wife when we are really enjoying each other.

[chippewastud79]

I don't really buy the "Internet and B+M cigars are actually different cigars to save money" argument. Although your "experiments" with the two different types are interesting, I think they are nothing more than a bias. The only way to truly tell if your "experiments" can be taken as conclusive would be to take one of each, place them in the same storage conditions for an extended period of time and then smoke them each blind with no prior knowledge of knowing one was from the internet and one was from a B+M. Without actual evidence for the "different cigar" theory, I don't think there is any argument that can be made claiming this.

[G G]

I started considering this... then my head started hurting!! All I know is I like most of the sticks I get online and I like most of the sticks I buy at a B&M.

:tpd:The sticks I enjoy the most are the ones from friends or that I enjoy with friends.
You see Brent, even though we don't agree on football we can agree on other things.

[MajorCaptSilly]

Do you really think that cigar manufacturers make varying quality cigars for B&Ms vs internet retailers? I just don't think that's possible. I do think that long-term storage can be a problem at some of the internet retailers. Many tend to keep cigars at higher humidity levels so they can ship better. If cigars are kept at over 70% humidity for long periods of time, I can see some chemical changes happening that could cause problems. I've also been at some B&M's with serious humidity issues. I just don't buy the fact that B&M's are getting "better" cigars.

MCS

[Chemyst]

Depends on your B&M and even the stores he owns/runs.
My B&M has 3 or 4 locations, and at one of them the
employees have NO CLUE about running a humidifier.

At another location we sometimes smoke inside the
walk-in, particularly if there is an event. IMHO this
doesn't help the open box stock.

I've been to both CI stores. The downtown location
is very small with a somewhat limited selection. The
new Superstore is modern with a nice lounge in the back
and a very good selection. The cigars I bought were OK.
And their mail order smokes are quite serviceable.

I also go to Holts several times each year. They know
how to treat cigars.

I've got dry cigars from the big guys and my local B&M.
If I let them recover in my humi, they will be good,
except for the one local location with poor humi habits.

I never worry about smokes from Holts. In fact they
might be a bit moist for some, but I smoke at least one
right there on every trip and never had a bad one.
Once I get them home and in my humi they remain in
top condition.

I think it's a matter of knowing how to deal with what
you get, rather than how they were kept at the store.
If you buy from a store and they consistently sell you
dry smokes, just let them recover(if possible) in your
humi, or find another store.

Many mail order smokes seem to be over humidified before
shipping, IMHO. This lets them dry out, a bit, while in transit.
Nothing wrong with that, except that OTT they might plug
a bit more.

Some people/brands prefer slightly drier smokes. To me they
burn a bit hot, but that's a personal preference.

YMMV

Chemyst :cool2:

[TheRiddick]

The only way to truly tell if your "experiments" can be taken as conclusive would be to take one of each, place them in the same storage conditions for an extended period of time and then smoke them each blind with no prior knowledge of knowing one was from the internet and one was from a B+M. Without actual evidence for the "different cigar" theory, I don't think there is any argument that can be made claiming this.

Absolutely agree with the above. Blind is the only way to go, any other side by side comparison is "prejudiced" from the start whether one admits to it or not.

I also seriously doubt manufacturers produce 2 separate batches, one for B&M and another for internet. One never knows where the cigars will end eventually plus it would take MORE, man power wise, to produce separate batches, store separately, etc. As a manufacturer (not cigars, though) I can simply say this is BS and a myth form many points of view as it would only increase the cost of production of BOTH batches.

That said, I can't even begin to fathom why anyone would even come up with this theory/myth unless whoever started this BS asked one question without delving into follow up questions such as, "So, this tobacco is used for bundled seconds?" And a few more, just to see if factory workers are simply playing with you (which I could see as they are bored out of their minds on a hot day and need to poke fun at a turista).

[Legend]

I agree there could be logistical issues. Really the whole thing came up from some of my botl going to the factories and hearing what the workers said. I'll be going to Nicaragua myself in may to see.

[icehog3]

Do you really think that cigar manufacturers make varying quality cigars for B&Ms vs internet retailers? I just don't think that's possible. I do think that long-term storage can be a problem at some of the internet retailers. Many tend to keep cigars at higher humidity levels so they can ship better. If cigars are kept at over 70% humidity for long periods of time, I can see some chemical changes happening that could cause problems. I've also been at some B&M's with serious humidity issues. I just don't buy the fact that B&M's are getting "better" cigars.
MCS

100% agreed.

[boonedoggle]

To me, many of the B&Ms I've encountered seem to have employees that are pompous. I guess maybe I haven't found a good place to visit on a regular basis, but from what I can tell, I'd rather visit a C&M because their prices are typically better anyways. Thanks Internet.;)

[alley00p]

I talked about this with my local B&M owner. He deals with companies directly when possible, but there is always Ataldis and other major companies that only deal through their distributors.

That being said, he keeps a good variety of sticks in his humidor, and is constanly changing what he orders, based on what his customers are looking for. For instance, he only keeps a few different Gurkhas because they don't move well. And being a smaller shop (not one of the big chains locally), he can't afford to place orders for a few thousand $ of sticks if they are going to sit on his shelves and not sell.

I always buy a couple of sticks when I go in, but I also bring sticks in that I have been gifted or bought online. He dislikes the online stores, not so much because they can beat his prices, but because he says you can't ever be sure how the cigars have been stored in their warehouse.

Bottom line is that I go there for the fellowship of the other cigar smokers who come in and are regulars. There is something about smoking in the company of others, as was mentioned above! :tu





:dance:

[Gonesledn]

i have been inside the cigars international climate controled warehouse... aka humidor. dam it is very high tech and constantly monitored to optimal conditions.

[Footbag]

I live in PA, and for the most part, with just a few exceptions, my local B&M's have very reasonable prices. I live about an hour from CI, and although I don't really consider them my B&M; I don't have any problems ordering from them.

That said, I will always give preference to the local B&M. They have smoking lounges and put up with and lobby against smoking laws, and they need support. I can always find something to buy at a B&M.

[knliebe]

Do you really think that cigar manufacturers make varying quality cigars for B&Ms vs internet retailers? I just don't think that's possible. I do think that long-term storage can be a problem at some of the internet retailers. Many tend to keep cigars at higher humidity levels so they can ship better. If cigars are kept at over 70% humidity for long periods of time, I can see some chemical changes happening that could cause problems. I've also been at some B&M's with serious humidity issues. I just don't buy the fact that B&M's are getting "better" cigars.

MCS

I agree with him %100.

[Lucky_Hippo]

This is why placebos sometimes work. The power of suggestion is a powerful drug, but it often brings an unwelcome bias when searching for "truth".

Big, cold, unattentive, warehouse cyber store.

or

Small, warm, personable, boutique-like cigar shop.

The cards are kind of stacked in the favor of the B&M when your data is pulled from a polling group of B&M regulars.

To get true data, I'm with the other guys above. You'd have to do a blind tasting, using unbiased cigar smokers without affiliations, and product stored/treated in the exact same conditions for a pre-disposed amount of time. AND not tell the smokers what they should be looking for and let them figure it out themselves.

Conspiracy theorys are fun. It just seems like an awful lot of work for ALL cigar manufacturers to follow up on when in fact, the secrets between each company could fill the grand canyon.

But hey, I also think my mom's fried chicken is the best in the world too. :D

[stitch]

There aint a B&M within a 7 hour drive of me ....So ..........
JR & FSS Internet Big guy's here I come!

[Legend]

Absolutely agree with the above. Blind is the only way to go, any other side by side comparison is "prejudiced" from the start whether one admits to it or not.

I also seriously doubt manufacturers produce 2 separate batches, one for B&M and another for internet. One never knows where the cigars will end eventually plus it would take MORE, man power wise, to produce separate batches, store separately, etc. As a manufacturer (not cigars, though) I can simply say this is BS and a myth form many points of view as it would only increase the cost of production of BOTH batches.

That said, I can't even begin to fathom why anyone would even come up with this theory/myth unless whoever started this BS asked one question without delving into follow up questions such as, "So, this tobacco is used for bundled seconds?" And a few more, just to see if factory workers are simply playing with you (which I could see as they are bored out of their minds on a hot day and need to poke fun at a turista).

Wow! Strong opinion. Very sure. Wasn't there.

[SeanGAR]

No difference, guaranteed. Any difference you think you detect in your non blind test may more likely be due to your shops cigars being 6 months older than internet cigars.

Unless you do the cigar testing double blind with cigars of equivalent age the results are spurious.

Now, I'm sure that you realize that it has been conclusively proven that all cigars that are sold on the internet are made of worms and soaked in wolverine urine. Maybe that is the reason for the difference you detect?

[MedicCook]

I buy at both depending on what my needs are. My B&M has their own master roller so the only place I can get his amazing cigars is at the B&M. I have not really noticed any difference in cigars.

[neoflex]

I'm in the no difference camp, although I sometimes feel the Joes deals are some sort of seconds as the sticks don't always seem to be up to par with their regular retail counterparts. Like others mentioned, to test this correctly you would need to buy specimens from both retailers and let them sit in your controlled environment for at least a month and than pop the bands off and have others smoke them blindly. You also have to keep in mind to that some retailers sell smokes online that manufacturers go through great lengths to keep them from hitting the online market but the online retailers buy them through a Brick & Morter and in turn put them online so who is to say everything you are getting was meant for online sales only?
Again, as mentioned previously the logistics of having two different smokes for different markets would just be too costly to make it worth their while IMHO.

[Legend]

This is why placebos sometimes work. The power of suggestion is a powerful drug, but it often brings an unwelcome bias when searching for "truth".

Big, cold, unattentive, warehouse cyber store.

or

Small, warm, personable, boutique-like cigar shop.

The cards are kind of stacked in the favor of the B&M when your data is pulled from a polling group of B&M regulars.

. :D

Agreed. But how do you account for the blind tests? 100% they knew the difference.

[Starscream]

I don't beleive that there are two awparate standards of tobacco, one for b&m's and one for internet retailers. I have noticed that I tend to enjoy sticks from b&m's more. I assume this is an aging issue.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Legend]

2 points.

1. I am not saying the internet cigars are bad. I am not saying the internet cigars are bad. Just not as good as the locals. With a noticeable difference. Not even saying a significant difference. Just noticeable.

2. Wher is the extra cost is separating box X from box Y. They can separate by brand. Name. Type. Size but not quality too? Why not? Why is that so much more expensive? Take nestor or don pepin. Both make tons of cigars for many different guys. In different sizes. Wrappers etc etc etc. But adding one more variable is gonna break the bank? Hogwash.

[potlimit]

As someone with post-grad work in stats I can tell you that if the sample size is large enough, a number like %100 would make me skeptical of the whole experiment... just from a purely experimental standpoint. You'd have to expect SOME variance in SOME variable.

From a personal standpoint, lately I've found that the sticks I've ordered from Atlantic (Cubao 1's and 5's and DPG blue label torps) have been just as good, if not better than those I've smoked at my B&M.

[Legend]

As someone with post-grad work in stats I can tell you that if the sample size is large enough, a number like %100 would make me skeptical of the whole experiment... just from a purely experimental standpoint. You'd have to expect SOME variance in SOME variable.

.

Agreed. So either

1. I'm lying.

Or

2. The stat Is telling of a noticeable(not significant) difference.

[mikeyj23]

Agreed. So either

1. I'm lying.

Or

2. The stat Is telling of a noticeable(not significant) difference.

Exactly :D

[icehog3]

Agreed. So either

1. I'm lying.

Or

2. The stat Is telling of a noticeable(not significant) difference.

No accusations of lying here. I take your word that the results for the tests you have been present for are what you are saying they are.

I just don't buy it that manufacturers are putting good ( and/or different) tobacco in B&M cigars, and "scraps" in the cigars sold on the internet. I am guessing that a large amount of the cigars go to distributors who supply both B&Ms and Internet retailers. I would bet there are other differences accounting for your results, and also that different groups would likely have different results.

[Commander Quan]

Anyone want to set up a taste challenge? I there is no way it will be as epic as Moki Vs. Fredster but could be interesting.

[Homebrewer]

Hmmmm. Can you give us a recent example with brand/size and the result. What did the tasters say?

[Legend]

No accusations of lying here. I take your word that the results for the tests you have been present for are what you are saying they are.

I just don't buy it that manufacturers are putting good ( and/or different) tobacco in B&M cigars, and "scraps" in the cigars sold on the internet. I am guessing that a large amount of the cigars go to distributors who supply both B&Ms and Internet retailers. I would bet there are other differences accounting for your results, and also that different groups would likely have different results.

Whoa. Who said anything about scraps? Again. Not saying even significantly better. Just noticeable. And consistant. Again the internet big guys cigars aren't bad. Just not as good as the local.

Recent example. We did ashton VSG wizards. A botl had got a box off cbid. I organized the blind taste with 4 others and I knew which was which. Another time it was RP vintages 92 torpedo that time someone else was the non blind and it was 3 of us. We've done a bunch of others.

I think an asylum testing would be fun. Let's agree on a stick. I'll pay for it. Ship to 6 guys. 2 who think its bull. 2 who agree with me and 2 who think it could be either way. You have to smoke them side by side and I'll remove the original wrapper and put on a number.

Heck wait a minute. I won't dictate the rules. What do you think?

[replicant_argent]

I think you are full of beans. But you can have your beans any way that you want. I am OK with that. Age of the sticks would be the variable that makes a difference here. Your Mileage May Vary.


No test needed for me, I just smoke em and try not to overthink it too much. I have the palate of a goat, and the attitude to match.

[Les Nessman]

Whoa. Who said anything about scraps? Again. Not saying even significantly better. Just noticeable. And consistant. Again the internet big guys cigars aren't bad. Just not as good as the local.

Recent example. We did ashton VSG wizards. A botl had got a box off cbid. I organized the blind taste with 4 others and I knew which was which. Another time it was RP vintages 92 torpedo that time someone else was the non blind and it was 3 of us. We've done a bunch of others.

I think an asylum testing would be fun. Let's agree on a stick. I'll pay for it. Ship to 6 guys. 2 who think its bull. 2 who agree with me and 2 who think it could be either way. You have to smoke them side by side and I'll remove the original wrapper and put on a number.

Heck wait a minute. I won't dictate the rules. What do you think?

The results of the test would not be statistically valid - way too small of a sample size. That being said, right or wrong, you can still convince people with statistically invalid test results.

[JaKaacH]

I think you are full of beans. But you can have your beans any way that you want. I am OK with that. Age of the sticks would be the variable that makes a difference here. Your Mileage May Vary.


No test needed for me, I just smoke em and try not to overthink it too much. I have the palate of a goat, and the attitude to match.

:tpd:
They are just cigars, smoke'em up yum..!!

Is the bottle of wine enjoyed by the glass at the resturant better than the same bottle at home???

[Raralith]

Relax Legend, I think you need a smoke. We are giving you our thoughts and opinions, and obviously most of us disagree with you. Take it with a grain of salt because in the end, if you believe it, there's nothing we can say to persuade you.

After taking a moment to think about this, I don't believe a B&M has superior cigars to internet retailers. It comes down to business, and it is completely different than your third point you made. Cigar manufacters are a business, pure and simple; they make money. Pepping is a hardy fellow that gives you a 3 pack of Tat Blacks when you purchase a box, but ever wonder why some Tat's are so expensive? They are rolled in Miami, and compared to Nicaragua, the cost of employing those rollers is very high. Why doesn't Peppin eat the cost? Because he's a businessman. While love and talent of ones work is important in creating a create cigar line, making money is why they are in business.

I think most cigar manufacter's realize now that the internet could be the next big thing in the industry, if not already. B&M's, my guess, probably sell less cigars than internet retailers, and I think most of us here can understand why; money, money, money. CI sells a box of NC Oliva V Lancero for $140, my local B&M sells them for $12 each. I cannot think of a single B&M (excluding those that sell online) that can beat online retailers simply because they get a better price. If you are a manufacter, why in the world would you send inferior product to your largest market base, and send your best product to a smaller market base? It doesn't.

I would like to know Rob at Taboo on his thoughts on this. He owns a B&M, and sells online. While he isn't a big guy like CI, he might ship a lot more than any local B&M can because he can advertise on forums, gives great discounts and prices, and is well known for his customer service. I'm fairly certain that he would say there really is no difference.

[chenvt]

I've never had a problem with an internet vendor.. any sticks that arrive in poor condition, I've always been able to get a refund.. For example, I got a box of Tat VI Angeles from CI, 5 sticks came with split foots. One e-mail later, my credit card was refunded by 5 sticks..

B&Ms vary.. the one down the street from me is horrible and I will NEVER ever go back..

[Legend]

In reality even though the big internet hit may sell 100 times the volume of one local. The fact is there are thousands of locals. And keeping them in business is very important to the industry. This is why rocky and nick perdomo show up at my local lounge.

Again I'm not talking about a vastly inferior product. Same tobacco. Just not the best. Giving them a small edge will keep them open and ordering. The average internet ordering guy is happy to get his smokes cheaper and with the same placebo effect mentioned above thinks there is no difference. I don't know how many guys I've heard or read about getting seconds and saying they are just as good. Do a side by side. Most are not even close.


I'm aware its an unprovable arguement for both sides. But I think its a fun debate and would be cool to do amongst the inmates.

[cort]

Wow Shawn if this is true I need your number and will meet you at Zarkas one day this week.

Very intersting but hard to believe.:2

[knliebe]

Legend, i'd be interested in participating in that little experiment of yours.
Although i find it hard to believe that b&m's have better sticks than online retailers, i would be interested in doing a side by side comparison and judging from their.

[SeanGAR]

Here is the statistical table for a 2 tailed paired forced choice preference test, which is what you are planning if you give 2 different cigars to people and ask which they prefer (and don't take no preference as an answer).

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/okeefes/2tailPP2.jpg

As you can see, it is not vaid to run the experiment with 6 of fewer observations and that you need more than 8 observations so you don't require 100% agreement. We never run these tests with less than 72 observations if the data are important. But for the sake of argument, if you have 25 observations (i.e., 25 different people smoked the cigars and gave you their preference), 18 of them would have to prefer one of the 2 smokes for the difference to be significant at the 5% level.

And you would need to run the experiment using a number of different comparisons.

I did something similar when I ran an accelerated aging experiment several years ago. I asked people to smoke the cigars side by side, and compare them as the burned down. I did learn that you need to find people who are motivated and who have palates that you can trust.

[Kreth]

I think an asylum testing would be fun. Let's agree on a stick. I'll pay for it. Ship to 6 guys. 2 who think its bull. 2 who agree with me and 2 who think it could be either way. You have to smoke them side by side and I'll remove the original wrapper and put on a number.
I'll take that action. I'll argue that a Padron 1926 and Opus X will taste identical whether from a B&M or Internet retailer... :r

[Legend]

I'll take that action. I'll argue that a Padron 1926 and Opus X will taste identical whether from a B&M or Internet retailer... :r

Oh you greedy bastid

He he he he

I was thinking maybe some rocky OWR. Or perdomo Habano.

[Kreth]

Oh you greedy bastid

He he he he

I was thinking maybe some rocky OWR. Or perdomo Habano.

Speaking of RP, I have had the Vintage 90 in the same vitola from my local B&M (not a large shop by any means), and CI. Just a noob's opinion here, but I didn't notice any difference.

[icehog3]

Whoa. Who said anything about scraps? Again. Not saying even significantly better. Just noticeable. And consistant. Again the internet big guys cigars aren't bad. Just not as good as the local.



Botl had gone to Honduras and Dominican republic and reported that locals(workers at the factories) had stated that inferior tobacco and piles left laying around in the factory were for internet cigars.

Apologies, you did not use the word "scraps". You said "piles (of tobacco) left laying around the factory". :D

[Smokin Gator]

I don't know why... but this thread really bothers me. It bothered me at the old site and it has taken pretty much the same course here.

Even if you were "testing" the exact same vitola of the same marca there are too many other variables involved to make any statements as to the differences based on internet versus B&M sources.

You guys have fun with it if you so choose.

[icehog3]

I don't know why... but this thread really bothers me. It bothered me at the old site and it has taken pretty much the same course here.

Even if you were "testing" the exact same vitola of the same marca there are too many other variables involved to make any statements as to the differences based on internet versus B&M sources.
You guys have fun with it if you so choose.

Agreed 100%.

[BlackIrish]

You know, the idea of sitting around with some buddies and doing a B&M vs internet herf seems fun. Not because it would have any statistical significance (I deal with surveys and statistical data for a living, and the amount of care that you'd need to take in designing a proper study is enormous), but because it would just be fun.

I'm actually curious about the premise: doesn't it make more sense for manufacturers to send their better product to their biggest and most powerful customers (the internet retailers) rather than the highly dispersed local B&Ms?

Please understand that I'm not disparaging B&Ms -- many of the proprietors are enormously knowledgeable and very influential in customers' purchasing decisions. But they probably sell only a fraction of the volume of the big internet outlets. I'd think that if the internet outlets were getting lower quality stuff, they could throw their weight around a lot more.

Just a question . . .

[BlackIrish]

Oh you greedy bastid

He he he he

I was thinking maybe some rocky OWR. Or perdomo Habano.

I'll take that action.

[knliebe]

I'm in.

Oh you greedy bastid

He he he he

I was thinking maybe some rocky OWR. Or perdomo Habano.

[jledou]

IMO, a cigar is a cigar and yes all of the factors may change the taste, but there have been times that one out of a box will taste different from the rest correct?

That being said, I will go to the B&M to try a cigar and if I like it a lot I will order a box from the internet. If I don't like it enough for a box I may buy one at the B&M from time to time. If I didn't like it at all, I was only out one stick and I can try it again later when I forget what it tasted like.

For me it comes down to I cannot see paying that much more for a box at a B&M versus the same thing on the net.

[Legend]

You know, the idea of sitting around with some buddies and doing a B&M vs internet herf seems fun. Not because it would have any statistical significance (I deal with surveys and statistical data for a living, and the amount of care that you'd need to take in designing a proper study is enormous), but because it would just be fun.

I'm actually curious about the premise: doesn't it make more sense for manufacturers to send their better product to their biggest and most powerful customers (the internet retailers) rather than the highly dispersed local B&Ms?



Agreed with the first statement. This is why we do it and it is fun.

With regards to the second statement. First the local B&Ms add up to significantly more than the big guys. Second, There is thew fact that the big guys probably won't notice. third, there is the placebo effect for the internet buyer. " I got the same stuff cheaper". Forth, the local can actually leave you. CI and Famous etc. could not just stop selling Rocky, or Perdomo or La Aurora, there is no threat. a Local guy just tells his clients, they were dealing with me poorly or gave me bad stuff and out of loyalty to their local place many stop smoking the brand all together. The big guys are powerful, because of the volume to one place that they command, but they throw it around too and demand dirt cheap prices for those. When I started in business I wanted the big guys, the whales. But now I want a thousand little guys, that way no one customer leaving can hurt my business.

[Legend]

I don't know why... but this thread really bothers me. It bothered me at the old site and it has taken pretty much the same course here.

Even if you were "testing" the exact same vitola of the same marca there are too many other variables involved to make any statements as to the differences based on internet versus B&M sources.

You guys have fun with it if you so choose.

Agreed there are a boat load of variables and the testing does not have statistical significance. But it is still odd and telling that 100% notice a difference and always in favor of the local.

[Col. Kurtz]

If I were Pepin, Fuente, et al. I wouldn't want my name on an inferior stick. It wouldn't matter to me where the stick was destined, internet or B&M.

I have gotten some putrid and great sticks from B&M and online. These are handmade products that are subject to minor variations unit to unit. I understand variations in color are sorted together for box presentation purposes, so it's plausible there are big differences in wrapper color within a blend. As far as purposely putting lower quality tobacco in a certain batch, not buying it. Aren't torcedors issued their bales for the days rolling?

I would imagine that the most important thing to aim for within a blend/brand is consistency.

I guess it boils down to this: If you like cigars from your B&M buy them (I'm sure they appreciate it), If you like them from online sources, buy those (I'm sure they appreciate it as well.) Not much on the conspiracy theories, but that's just me. I may be wrong.

[Raralith]

Legend, most of the things we are saying are purely spectulative, and we have no real proof. I think that internet retailers sell more, you think B&M's sell more, but neither of us have proof. Just because you said it over and over again doesn't mean it is fact so going back to that point over and over again doesn't prove anything at this point.

Don't you work at a B&M or are a member of a lounge in SoCal? This seems obviously blatant to everyone else that there is a complete bias. The whole purpose of saying, "Hey, let us see if B&M's taste better than internet" is greatly biased. Just because you don't tell them it's from the B&M and internet makes it a blind taste test. Just like your bad example of the placebo effect of buying sticks off the internet cheaper except it could actually be a real placebo effect since you are all sitting around actively trying to see that there is a difference.

[Kreth]

Just because you don't tell them it's from the B&M and internet makes it a blind taste test. Just like your bad example of the placebo effect of buying sticks off the internet cheaper except it could actually be a real placebo effect since you are all sitting around actively trying to see that there is a difference.
I'm kinda wondering what would happen if he mixed things up a bit by giving one of the testers two B&M sticks or two Internet sticks...

[MajorCaptSilly]

Agreed with the first statement. This is why we do it and it is fun.

With regards to the second statement. First the local B&Ms add up to significantly more than the big guys. Second, There is thew fact that the big guys probably won't notice. third, there is the placebo effect for the internet buyer. " I got the same stuff cheaper". Forth, the local can actually leave you. CI and Famous etc. could not just stop selling Rocky, or Perdomo or La Aurora, there is no threat. a Local guy just tells his clients, they were dealing with me poorly or gave me bad stuff and out of loyalty to their local place many stop smoking the brand all together. The big guys are powerful, because of the volume to one place that they command, but they throw it around too and demand dirt cheap prices for those. When I started in business I wanted the big guys, the whales. But now I want a thousand little guys, that way no one customer leaving can hurt my business.

I have 2 cats and 1 dog.

MCS

[Raralith]

I'm kinda wondering what would happen if he mixed things up a bit by giving one of the testers two B&M sticks or two Internet sticks...

And told them you were seeing of B&M and internet cigars were different? I'm almost certain many will say there is. :rolleyes:

[lightning9191]

third, there is the placebo effect for the internet buyer. " I got the same stuff cheaper".

Perhaps you are experiencing a placebo effect because you seem quite convinced that the B&M's sticks are superior...:ss

[Waynegro1]

I don't know why... but this thread really bothers me. It bothered me at the old site and it has taken pretty much the same course here.

Even if you were "testing" the exact same vitola of the same marca there are too many other variables involved to make any statements as to the differences based on internet versus B&M sources.

You guys have fun with it if you so choose.

:tpd:
I couldn't of said it better.
Too many variables. Enjoy cigars, whenever, however and from where ever you choose. Just enjoy them fellas. :ss

[WildBlueSooner]

I don't know why... but this thread really bothers me. It bothered me at the old site and it has taken pretty much the same course here.

Even if you were "testing" the exact same vitola of the same marca there are too many other variables involved to make any statements as to the differences based on internet versus B&M sources.

You guys have fun with it if you so choose.

May not mean much coming from someone who hasnt done a lot of smoking but "cha ching"! Gator= spot on!:tpd:

[bobarian]

I am starting to get an itch!:bh

[nozero]

I figure I buy from who I want, when I want period. After all, I'm the one who benefits or suffers which:2ever the case may be.
:2

[Sancho]

The biggest difference I have seen first hand is with againg, B&M's dont move the stock of some of the more boutique brands that the online guys do. i.e. go into some place that sells Tatujue and check the box code, probably not new. Recently the shop I work at recieved a new box of VSG torpedos, compared to the rest of the VSG's already on the shelf they tasted totally different (due to lacking years of age) as such someone can come to the conclusion that a big interent site that moves thousands of boxes a month has cigars that dont taste the same as the local shop who moves maybe 10-20 boxes a month and mostly singles.

Just my perspective having watched stock sit on shelves only to be blown at a bottom shelf prices because it doesn't sell.

[ScottishSmoker]

I have 2 cats and 1 dog.

MCS

About your dogs, did you buy one on the internet and the other from a local store?

[Legend]

Legend, most of the things we are saying are purely spectulative, and we have no real proof. I think that internet retailers sell more, you think B&M's sell more, but neither of us have proof. Just because you said it over and over again doesn't mean it is fact so going back to that point over and over again doesn't prove anything at this point.

Don't you work at a B&M or are a member of a lounge in SoCal? This seems obviously blatant to everyone else that there is a complete bias. The whole purpose of saying, "Hey, let us see if B&M's taste better than internet" is greatly biased. Just because you don't tell them it's from the B&M and internet makes it a blind taste test. Just like your bad example of the placebo effect of buying sticks off the internet cheaper except it could actually be a real placebo effect since you are all sitting around actively trying to see that there is a difference.

agreed.

[Scottw]

About your dogs, did you buy one on the internet and the other from a local store?


And if so, do they taste different?

[Legend]

If I were Pepin, Fuente, et al. I wouldn't want my name on an inferior stick. It wouldn't matter to me where the stick was destined, internet or B&M.

I have gotten some putrid and great sticks from B&M and online. These are handmade products that are subject to minor variations unit to unit. I understand variations in color are sorted together for box presentation purposes, so it's plausible there are big differences in wrapper color within a blend. As far as purposely putting lower quality tobacco in a certain batch, not buying it. Aren't torcedors issued their bales for the days rolling?

I would imagine that the most important thing to aim for within a blend/brand is consistency.

I guess it boils down to this: If you like cigars from your B&M buy them (I'm sure they appreciate it), If you like them from online sources, buy those (I'm sure they appreciate it as well.) Not much on the conspiracy theories, but that's just me. I may be wrong.

Once again guys. No conspiracy, not vastly inferior. just noticeable difference.

[MajorCaptSilly]

About your dogs, did you buy one on the internet and the other from a local store?

Thank you for asking. The cats came from a local source and the dog came from a less local source. They are all nice.

MCS

[MajorCaptSilly]

And if so, do they taste different?

I licked all three and they taste like those sour gummi bears.

MCS

[Scottw]

I licked all three and they taste like those sour gummi bears.

MCS

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, what part did you.............um.........nevermind. Thanks.

[icehog3]

With regards to the second statement. First the local B&Ms add up to significantly more than the big guys. Second, There is thew fact that the big guys probably won't notice. third, there is the placebo effect for the internet buyer. " I got the same stuff cheaper".

I would love to see the factual stats on the local B&Ms adding up to more than the "big guys". Also how the conclusion is reached that the big guys "probably won't notice getting a (not vastly) inferior product. And don't even get me started on how you could prove this "placebo effect" theory.

I again emphasize everything posted here is subjective and/or speculative, yet it is pontificated like as if it were factual.

[Legend]

I would love to see the factual stats on the local B&Ms adding up to more than the "big guys". Also how the conclusion is reached that the big guys "probably won't notice getting a (not vastly) inferior product. And don't even get me started on how you could prove this "placebo effect" theory.

I again emphasize everything posted here is subjective and/or speculative, yet it is pontificated like as if it were factual.

Oh no, I've Agreed with everyone who's said it's subjective. and even stated I know neither side can be proved. just think it's interesting and would be fun to test amongst the inmates.

[icehog3]

Oh no, I've Agreed with everyone who's said it's subjective. and even stated I know neither side can be proved. just think it's interesting and would be fun to test amongst the inmates.

Absolutely, no harm in a little fun. :tu

[ca21455]

Let's not get all balled up here. This is an interesting discussion with all sides having there own opinion. That is what this type of medium is all about.

I tried searching the INTERNET to see if there was any information on cigar distribution and could not find anything definitive. The leading retailer is JR cigars and they sold about 10% of all cigars in the US. This of course includes all cigars which includes machine made cigars which sell more by far but cost less. Based on all the information I could find a good guess would be the INTERNET companies probably sell an equal amount of handmades as the B&Ms.

I typically try a few singles from a B&M first before purchasing a box. As far as quality goes, I would have to say I can't tell the difference. For the ones resting in my humi for > a month the singles taste the same as the boxes purchased on line.

I can say (as been stated before) the smokes indulged in at a local B&M with fellow BOLTs is always the best. Especially since I usually try something new that has been reccomended.

Anyway, an interesting discussion. Let's keep this civil. :)

[Legend]

Let's not get all balled up here. This is an interesting discussion with all sides having there own opinion. That is what this type of medium is all about.

I tried searching the INTERNET to see if there was any information on cigar distribution and could not find anything definitive. The leading retailer is JR cigars and they sold about 10% of all cigars in the US. This of course includes all cigars which includes machine made cigars which sell more by far but cost less. Based on all the information I could find a good guess would be the INTERNET companies probably sell an equal amount of handmades as the B&Ms.

I typically try a few singles from a B&M first before purchasing a box. As far as quality goes, I would have to say I can't tell the difference. For the ones resting in my humi for > a month the singles taste the same as the boxes purchased on line.

I can say (as been stated before) the smokes indulged in at a local B&M with fellow BOLTs is always the best. Especially since I usually try something new that has been reccomended.

Anyway, an interesting discussion. Let's keep this civil. :)

Agreed. Thanks for the input.

So who is willing to organize a test? I'll definately put some money into it. I know it will prove nothing but will be fun to do.

[TheRiddick]

Legend,

Who are the biggest internet cigar shops? That's right, same guys who ALSO run B&Ms: Famous, CI, Holt's, JR, Corona, etc. There is absolutely no way they ALSO maintain different stocks as proposed by you in the original post (and meaning that cigar manufacturers maintain at least 2 different warehouses as well).

I know of no business, cigar or not, that is looking to increase operational costs instead of cutting them, and anyone believing some yahoo at some cigar factory somewhere wanting to mess with a turista's head just needs to smoke less or entirely cut it out (and I don't mean cigars).

I guess its time for me to cut down on my book purchases over the internet, the paper they are printed on must be inferior to the ones sold at a B&M. And that watch must be made of inferior steel as well... Internet bought means inferior, in short.

So far you said that CA reviews are bought via ad dollars with absolutely no proof provided, now you are saying that a good number of cigars smokers are buying inferior products from internet stores and manufacturers who KNOWINGLY sell inferior product. Wow...

Since you live near Temecula I am sure wine makers there say they make superior product to, say, Napa, to any tourist that makes a stop at a local tasting room. Must also be true since a winery tasting room employee says it.

Don't believe everything you think.

[Legend]

Legend,

Who are the biggest internet cigar shops? That's right, same guys who ALSO run B&Ms: Famous, CI, Holt's, JR, Corona, etc. There is absolutely no way they ALSO maintain different stocks as proposed by you in the original post (and meaning that cigar manufacturers maintain at least 2 different warehouses as well).

I know of no business, cigar or not, that is looking to increase operational costs instead of cutting them, and anyone believing some yahoo at some cigar factory somewhere wanting to mess with a turista's head just needs to smoke less or entirely cut it out (and I don't mean cigars).

I guess its time for me to cut down on my book purchases over the internet, the paper they are printed on must be inferior to the ones sold at a B&M. And that watch must be made of inferior steel as well... Internet bought means inferior, in short.

So far you said that CA reviews are bought via ad dollars with absolutely no proof provided, now you are saying that a good number of cigars smokers are buying inferior products from internet stores and manufacturers who KNOWINGLY sell inferior product. Wow...

Since you live near Temecula I am sure wine makers there say they make superior product to, say, Napa, to any tourist that makes a stop at a local tasting room. Must also be true since a winery tasting room employee says it.

Don't believe everything you think.

Awesome. I'll check my thoughts with you in the future. Since you know which of my thoughts are ridiculous and which aren't. I certainly can't trust myself. And you seem very willing to help.

Ok. I'm just funning with you. Worry not. I'm not offended by your post. Just figured I'd demonstrate the absurdity of your statements. While you believe I may need to not believe everything I think. Its painfully obvious you shouldn't post everything you think. Truly riddick to summarily dismiss anothers thoughts as wrong when you have no proof. Particularly after he has admitted that his thoughts are just opinions that can't be proven. Just like yours. But of course your opinions are facts.

Truly no sweat riddick. Not offended. Just some advice.

[icehog3]

Let's not get all balled up here.

Anyway, an interesting discussion. Let's keep this civil. :)

I thought it was for the largest part, John. :)

[Genetic Defect]

I have yet to taste Cali wine that I liked :)

[ca21455]

I thought it was for the largest part, John. :)

Absolutely, just be nice to keep it that way.

[SeanGAR]

third, there is the placebo effect for the internet buyer. " I got the same stuff cheaper".

That wouldn't be a placebo effect, it would be bias, and it is unclear to me what direction the bias would go.

Normally I'm all for cigar testing on boards, but this, to me, is like designing an experiment to show that the earth is round.

Truly riddick to summarily dismiss anothers thoughts as wrong when you have no proof.

Look at his argument again. Most internet shops are expansions from B&Ms. Based on your thesis, you are suggesting that J&R sells different CAO Brazilias online than they do in their NC shop. I dismiss that out of hand because it doesn't pass the smell test, let alone my personal experience.

[Legend]

That wouldn't be a placebo effect, it would be bias, and it is unclear to me what direction the bias would go.

Normally I'm all for cigar testing on boards, but this, to me, is like designing an experiment to show that the earth is round.



Look at his argument again. Most internet shops are expansions from B&Ms. Based on your thesis, you are suggesting that J&R sells different CAO Brazilias online than they do in their NC shop. I dismiss that out of hand because it doesn't pass the smell test, let alone my personal experience.

If you look at the original post I acknowledged that the big internet guys were themselves b&m and that their local store would be considered part of the internet store for the purpose of this discussion.

[Kreth]

Based on your thesis, you are suggesting that J&R sells different CAO Brazilias online than they do in their NC shop.
*sigh* I hang out here too much. My first thought after reading this was, "JR has a CC shop?" :r

[SeanGAR]

If you look at the original post I acknowledged that the big internet guys were themselves b&m and that their local store would be considered part of the internet store for the purpose of this discussion.

3. I understand that all the big internet guys also have b&m. I'll still refer to them as internet stores. They are different. Emphasis placed by me.

So once a B&M starts selling online, they start getting the second rate cigars? Come on ... your thesis is ridiculous. The cost alone of keeping 2 separate inventories (the good cigars and the bad cigars) would preclude this. Six months makes a huge difference in taste of many cigars and is most likely the source of your preference. This is simpler and more logical than two inventories from what ... all vendors? All of them are conspiring and having two versions of all their cigars? Now that just doesn't pass the laugh test, does it?

[Legend]

Emphasis placed by me.

So once a B&M starts selling online, they start getting the second rate cigars? Come on ... your thesis is ridiculous. The cost alone of keeping 2 separate inventories (the good cigars and the bad cigars) would preclude this. Six months makes a huge difference in taste of many cigars and is most likely the source of your preference. This is simpler and more logical than two inventories from what ... all vendors? All of them are conspiring and having two versions of all their cigars? Now that just doesn't pass the laugh test, does it?

You are looking at it much harsher than I intended. I would say that once a guy gets big enough to demand lower prices the makers then will then know when they are making these large batches for them and may not always use the best. Let QA drop a little. Definately not 2nd rate. Just noticeable.

Is aging a possible explination as well? Sure. I'll concede that. Is it the only explination and does it explain everything? No!

To you it seems ridiculous because you're looking at it as a much more severe difference than I mean. And much more sinister. I'm thinking simple business decisions that are easy. No separate stock. These big guys order direct from the factory and the factory knows who their product is being made for.

[Kreth]

I'd be willing to participate, but as I said above, I think you'd have to give some participants 2 B&M sticks or 2 Internet retailer sticks to make it more of a blind study. If everyone knows they have one of each, then they might "manufacture" differences that aren't really there.

[SeanGAR]

I'm thinking simple business decisions that are easy. No separate stock. These big guys order direct from the factory and the factory knows who their product is being made for.

Well if the best product went to the best clients (assuming these are B&M), how would they handle that at the factory? By rollers? By changing the cigar formulation?

Too much work and cost to segregate that way.

It just doesn't make sense that a manufacturer would put out anything that would be considered at all inferior in their regular line. That is why seconds abound. I've had seconds that smoked and looked very good. And if CI or any of the big guys found that they were getting inferior cigars because of who they are or their negotiated prices, how long do you think that would last?

DPG gets a huge order from CI for blue labels. You think they change the formulation or rolling to fulfill the order? You think DPG or any other retailer would risk the reputation of their cigars to save a few bucks? I just don't see it, not even a maybe.

[Legend]

Well if the best product went to the best clients (assuming these are B&M), how would they handle that at the factory? By rollers? By changing the cigar formulation?

Too much work and cost to segregate that way.

It just doesn't make sense that a manufacturer would put out anything that would be considered at all inferior in their regular line. That is why seconds abound. I've had seconds that smoked and looked very good. And if CI or any of the big guys found that they were getting inferior cigars because of who they are or their negotiated prices, how long do you think that would last?

DPG gets a huge order from CI for blue labels. You think they change the formulation or rolling to fulfill the order? You think DPG or any other retailer would risk the reputation of their cigars to save a few bucks? I just don't see it, not even a maybe.

I could go through how simple it seems to me. But ice already explained parts of it and you don't even see a maybe. So I'll leave it at that and not try to convince you. I mean you're not even willing to entertain the possibility. I'm wasting my time. It becomes an arguement and not a discussion. Not here to argue.

[mithrilG60]

Normally I'm all for cigar testing on boards, but this, to me, is like designing an experiment to show that the earth is round.

The experiment would actually be pretty simple, just a basic double-blind study. Take for example 5 testers testing one vitola. A person independent from the testers would buy 2 boxes with roughly the same date stamps, 1 from a B&M and 1 from an online vendor, label them box A and B and give them to a second independent person (the distributor) without letting them know which is which. That second person would then remove the bands and replace them with blanks labeled to match the boxes they've come out and age them for a predetermined length of time in a known constant environment. Each of the testers would receive 10 cigars, 5 from each box, which they would have to smoke (preferably alternating equally between the 2 stocks) and record their impressions of both the smoke and their mood at the time. Once all 10 cigars have been smoked the tester reports their results back to the distributor. Only once all 5 testers have reported back and the distributor has tabulated which, if either, box was preferred does the first person reveal which was the internet box and which was the B&M.

At the end of all that production you'll almost guaranteed to find that the results are the same for each and the perception of a "better" cigar from a B&M/lounge is purely due to the bias induced by the environment and the fact that we are programed to think a more expensive product = better product.

[SilverFox]

I have been watching this from afar up to now.

Inherently I disagree which is my opinion not a statement of fact but it really makes no sense whatsoever.

That is like saying if I buy my Windex at the local grocer on the corner that I am going to get a superior product than if I ordered it from Costco online that given that the manufacturer knows it is for Costco they will use a slightly inferior and cheaper formula and charge costco less so they can sell it at a lesser price.

It sounds a little absurd when we are talking about window cleaner, yet I believe this is the exact same argument that has been applied.

I cannot see it happening, I see no empirical evidence that it is, and I cannot imagine retailers (online) and consumers tolerating it. In fact I would bet that somewhere in the annals of Fair Trade and Market Laws it is illegal to represent them as the same product if they are in fact not.

[TheRiddick]

I have yet to taste Cali wine that I liked :)

Maybe you should try one to begin with :D

[TheRiddick]

Legend,

Usually I am not a supporter of legal action, but "theories" like these simply rub me wrong as they should any other business owner, IMO.

Like I said already, you are 2 for 2 so far, some may say you simply repeat things heard elsewhere, some will say it is clearly libel. Actually, any attorney will say it is libel and will easily prove it in court.

Take a look here:
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20090223/ARTICLES/902230914/1350?Title=Korbel-wants-Comcast-to-ID-anonymous-critics

There are plenty of other examples. Sitting at a keyboard somewhere doesn't give anyone license to mess with someone's business just because he had a "deep thought".

[Da Klugs]

http://www.5min.com/Video/Young-Vin-Diesel-Shows-How-to-Breakdance-11490


:D

Hope the Koehler folks don't come a knocking at my door. :ss

[SeanGAR]

I mean you're not even willing to entertain the possibility. I'm wasting my time. It becomes an arguement and not a discussion. Not here to argue.

An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition, is it not?

In any case, I do a lot of sensory testing for my job. I realize that you need a lot of samples to have validity in your conclusions. I also realize that there are other possible explanations for the differences that you have observed. I do not doubt at all that you have seen clear preferences for cigars purchased at your B&M compared to online. Why would I? You come here looking for an explanation, which is cool. But you were given the explanation. Age of cigars and possibly humidity of storage.

I will, however, contribute money and time to the effort to design and run the experiment to test your hypothesis; as long as you are willing to accept the results of the experiment, as I am. I am willing to accept that I may be wrong ... I am married after all :r.

[WildBlueSooner]

I propose this. Take the same stick and give people 4 of the same stick. However they will get them in any combination...could be 2 from online and 2 from B&M, one and three, or 4 from one source and have them rate them and say which they think is which. I can almost guarantee you there will be no trend in either direction.

[SeanGAR]

I propose this. Take the same stick and give people 4 of the same stick. However they will get them in any combination...could be 2 from online and 2 from B&M, one and three, or 4 from one source and have them rate them and say which they think is which. I can almost guarantee you there will be no trend in either direction.

I don't know how to run the statistics on that type of experimental design. Anybody???

[taltos]

I don't know how to run the statistics on that type of experimental design. Anybody???Can't see any control group there and don't see much experimental design.

[Yazzie]

The Dos Equis in a Bottle I get at the bar tastes far superior than the Dos Equis in a bottle that I buy from the liquor store.....:r

Sure it does....

[14holestogie]

I don't know diddly about cigars or wine, but if we're going to start talking Windex, I am all over that. I have an uncle who's neighbor's third cousin's sister-in law was at the factory when they were mixing up the lot for Costco and they were putting a paler blue die into that batch than what you'll see from your mom n pop store down the block. :rolleyes:

[Taboo Cigars]

I see everyone is reading this thread so I just wanted to say, "HELLO"!:D

Rob:ss

[Genetic Defect]

Maybe you should try one to begin with :D

I did but am open to suggestions :) anything under $50 :tu

[Genetic Defect]

The Dos Equis in a Bottle I get at the bar tastes far superior than the Dos Equis in a bottle that I buy from the liquor store.....:r

Sure it does....

:r

[Legend]

Riddick:
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Strong opinions and a number of things just "rub you the wrong way" lighten up. Try not to have so many issues.

Seangar:

You're right I should have used the term fighting. When at least one side of a discussion will lead absolutely no credence to the other its just a fight. Arguement can be taken either way and I was thinking husband wife arguement. Not rational arguement.

The rest of the botl:

I think some of you are really taking this as much harsher than I mean. also, we are not talking about windex or some other synthetic product. This is a plant product. This is like sending your better tomatoes to the local grocers and not being quite as picky when sending to the supermarket. The ones going to the supermarket are not bad. Its not a conspiracy. A good number of folks probably can't tell. But the owner of that local grocery could so you make sure his stuff is those same tomatoes. Just your better ones of those same ones.

The assumption that this would provide so much more overhead to me seems very silly. The rollers know what they have when they start rolling. But sure its a plausible argument against. But that argument alone doesn't and can't nullify the plausibility of my argument.

[icehog3]

But sure its a plausible argument against. But that argument alone doesn't and can't nullify the plausibility of my argument.

Just as your argument alone doesn't and can't nullify the plausability of the argument against. ;)

[thebiglebowski]

I see everyone is reading this thread so I just wanted to say, "HELLO"!:D

Rob:ss

hey! it's taboo guy. let's ask him.

Rob - do you sell your better cigars in your store and your not-so-better cigars on the inter-webs?

[jledou]

This is a plant product. This is like sending your better tomatoes to the local grocers and not being quite as picky when sending to the supermarket. The ones going to the supermarket are not bad. Its not a conspiracy. A good number of folks probably can't tell. But the owner of that local grocery could so you make sure his stuff is those same tomatoes. Just your better ones of those same ones.
.

I think that some of what you are talking about with plants would deal with grades, in this case grades of tomatoes. The higher quality would go at a premium price and might be sold at the local where the supermarket might buy the "b" grade at a lower price and high volume.

I think that tobacco itself is graded in general but I would assume that the same grade is used in a blend for a certain production run. Maybe this is where my thoughts are off?

[Addiction]

I've only been smoking a few years so my two cents: No the cigars are not better quality at a local B&M, but sometimes they are better cared for than they would have been at a big internet shop. Better humidifier, better temp control that kind of thing. I also believe you'd be cutting off your nose to spit your face if you had Brand A and sent primo copies of it to B&Ms and then sent watered down copies of the same exact cigar to different stores for any reason. What was probably explained is that the cast off bales and tobacco is used for seconds or things like RP Fusions or RP MX, those internet house brands.

[Hardcz]

I don't like to shop at some B&M's because I witnessed a guy sneeze in the Humidor.... yea... that's right, the bastage happened to be angled towards the CAO's.... needless to say I exited that place and smoked what I brought.

[SmokeyJoe]

I don't like to shop at some B&M's because I witnessed a guy sneeze in the Humidor.... yea... that's right, the bastage happened to be angled towards the CAO's.... needless to say I exited that place and smoked what I brought.


It's kind of like food service... just like we don't see what happens in the kitchen. You saw the guy at the B&M, but we have NO idea what happens at the warehouse, or when they are packed, etc... :pn :pu

Just the kind of stuff we would rather not know. :ss

[Hardcz]

It's kind of like food service... just like we don't see what happens in the kitchen. You saw the guy at the B&M, but we have NO idea what happens at the warehouse, or when they are packed, etc... :pn

Just the kind of stuff we would rather not know. :ss

I only smoke cigars rolled between the thighs or b**bs of attractive 20 something virgins that are from cuban descent living in Miami or Cuba. Also these virgin rollers are very clean and only impart their love and super hotness into these cigars.

Jealous? I know you are. :r:r

[Raralith]

The rest of the botl:

I think some of you are really taking this as much harsher than I mean.

FYI, reading your replies, you certainly are making this very harsh on almost everyone else. These are opinions, and obviously if you flail around your opinions without much facts, which you pretty much are, why would you be surprised to get some flailed back at you?

I'm sure glad my local B&M's don't have discussions like these because I certainly would never go back. I'm there to smoke and drink, and the only thing heated that should go on is my cigar, not the conversations.

[macpappy]

I only smoke cigars rolled between the thighs or b**bs of attractive 20 something virgins that are from cuban descent living in Miami or Cuba. Also these virgin rollers are very clean and only impart their love and super hotness into these cigars.

Jealous? I know you are. :r:r

I want to tour that factory.:ss

[Legend]

FYI, reading your replies, you certainly are making this very harsh on almost everyone else. These are opinions, and obviously if you flail around your opinions without much facts, which you pretty much are, why would you be surprised to get some flailed back at you?

I'm sure glad my local B&M's don't have discussions like these because I certainly would never go back. I'm there to smoke and drink, and the only thing heated that should go on is my cigar, not the conversations.

actually the discussions at my Lounge are incredibly civil. We all agree the local stuff is better. Doesn't make us right, just our opinion. I'm not sure what exactly I'm "flail"ing. Or why having an unprovable opinion means I am supposed to be subjected to people misunderstanding me or taking my opinion harsher than i mean it. I don't quite follow your logic there. You seem to be taking this personally, why is stating my opinion making it harsh on people. I'm honestly inquiring here. I don't see how having an unpopular opinion here and attempting to support that opinion is harsh on people. Could you clear that up for me.

[Raralith]

actually the discussions at my Lounge are incredibly civil. We all agree the local stuff is better. Doesn't make us right, just our opinion. I'm not sure what exactly I'm "flail"ing. Or why having an unprovable opinion means I am supposed to be subjected to people misunderstanding me or taking my opinion harsher than i mean it. I don't quite follow your logic there. You seem to be taking this personally, why is stating my opinion making it harsh on people. I'm honestly inquiring here. I don't see how having an unpopular opinion here and attempting to support that opinion is harsh on people. Could you clear that up for me.

Read your replies. Read what you are saying. Read how you are saying it. This should answer why "some of you are really taking this as much harsher than I mean." I'm not taking it personally, but rather responding to your above statement.

[Hardcz]

There are some wild accusations here, and people are calling the bluff, unless something can be shown to prove that they are true, then it's not....

Hell I still smoke cc's to get high because they have weed in them.

[gnukfu]

There are some wild accusations here, and people are calling the bluff, unless something can be shown to prove that they are true, then it's not....

Hell I still smoke cc's to get high because they have weed in them.

Stop it Dan...you're killing me!:ss

[tedrodgerscpa]

I propose this. Take the same stick and give people 4 of the same stick. However they will get them in any combination...could be 2 from online and 2 from B&M, one and three, or 4 from one source and have them rate them and say which they think is which. I can almost guarantee you there will be no trend in either direction.

I don't know how to run the statistics on that type of experimental design. Anybody???

Can't see any control group there and don't see much experimental design.

That looks to be a triple blind study, which is the strongest test in terms of causality, and is rarely used.

If I wanted to hypothesize that real bullets are deadly and blank bullets are not, I put a mess of bullets in a box. I don't know which bullet is real, and which is blank. Put gun to head, pull trigger.

If I die, I have unmistakeable proof that real bullets are lethal.

However, if I live, I don't necessarily have unmistakeable proof that bullets are lethal, as I may have drawn a blank.

[SmokeyJoe]

I only smoke cigars rolled between the thighs or b**bs of attractive 20 something virgins that are from cuban descent living in Miami or Cuba. Also these virgin rollers are very clean and only impart their love and super hotness into these cigars.

Jealous? I know you are. :r:r

This post is useless without pics... :D

[Legend]

Read your replies. Read what you are saying. Read how you are saying it. This should answer why "some of you are really taking this as much harsher than I mean." I'm not taking it personally, but rather responding to your above statement.

Thanks for clearing that up. Its harsh and flailing because you read it that way.

I'm letting you know as the author. That was not my intention. And I've tried to clarify myself. Yet you keep on saying. "no. I originally took it this way so that's what you mean".

Sorry I was originally unclear. Please accept my clarifications.

[Col. Kurtz]

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet

Pot successfully stirred, consensus reached, post unsubscribed.

Thanks for the entertainment friend!

[MajorCaptSilly]

That looks to be a triple blind study, which is the strongest test in terms of causality, and is rarely used.

If I wanted to hypothesize that real bullets are deadly and blank bullets are not, I put a mess of bullets in a box. I don't know which bullet is real, and which is blank. Put gun to head, pull trigger.

If I die, I have unmistakeable proof that real bullets are lethal.

However, if I live, I don't necessarily have unmistakeable proof that bullets are lethal, as I may have drawn a blank.


Ted,

I want you to live!!!

Thank you,

MCS

[WildBlueSooner]

That looks to be a triple blind study, which is the strongest test in terms of causality, and is rarely used.

If I wanted to hypothesize that real bullets are deadly and blank bullets are not, I put a mess of bullets in a box. I don't know which bullet is real, and which is blank. Put gun to head, pull trigger.

If I die, I have unmistakeable proof that real bullets are lethal.

However, if I live, I don't necessarily have unmistakeable proof that bullets are lethal, as I may have drawn a blank.

I knew I didnt make this type of experiment up! :rolleyes:

[Hardcz]

This post is useless without pics... :D

Well you asked...

NOT SAFE FOR WORK OR CHILDREN...OR SOME WOMEN OR MEN....

DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK IT HAS ADULT CONTENT.... (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1118/hand_rolled/)

NOT SAFE FOR WORK OR CHILDREN...OR SOME WOMEN OR MEN....

There ya go.... for most adults it's fine... just needed to give that warning out there....

[cort]

Well you asked...

NOT SAFE FOR WORK OR CHILDREN...OR SOME WOMEN OR MEN....

DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK IT HAS ADULT CONTENT.... (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1118/hand_rolled/)

NOT SAFE FOR WORK OR CHILDREN...OR SOME WOMEN OR MEN....

There ya go.... for most adults it's fine... just needed to give that warning out there....

I am sooooo offended!!!!!;)

[WildBlueSooner]

Well you asked...

NOT SAFE FOR WORK OR CHILDREN...OR SOME WOMEN OR MEN....

DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK IT HAS ADULT CONTENT.... (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1118/hand_rolled/)

NOT SAFE FOR WORK OR CHILDREN...OR SOME WOMEN OR MEN....

There ya go.... for most adults it's fine... just needed to give that warning out there....

Geez...I always hear Canadians loved smut. haha :usa

[14holestogie]

I am sooooo offended!!!!!;)

Me, too. Box split, anyone? :D

[nozero]

There are some wild accusations here, and people are calling the bluff, unless something can be shown to prove that they are true, then it's not....

Hell I still smoke cc's to get high because they have weed in them.

Does one have to inhale to get any benefit?
:r

[WildBlueSooner]

Me, too. Box split, anyone? :D

Nope I am taking the box all for myself.

[Starscream]

This post is useless without pics... :D

1783

How bout between these b00bs and thighs?

[14holestogie]

1783

How bout between these b00bs and thighs?



Those are the ones they sell on the internet. :rolleyes:

[ahc4353]

Question for the OP. Are any other guys that hang out with you at your Lounge members of CA? I would like to read their thoughts. Please link me if I missed their input.

Thanks

[WildBlueSooner]

Those are the ones they sell on the internet. :rolleyes:

hahahahahahah hilarious :r

[chippewastud79]

1783

How bout between these b00bs and thighs?

Now that would be a good experiment to see if the OP and his B+M buddies 'would know the difference between the two 100% of the time'.:D

[Starscream]

Those are the ones they sell on the internet. :rolleyes:

:r

[Hardcz]

and I thought I was a cigar snob

[Legend]

Those are the ones they sell on the internet. :rolleyes:

Hilarious

[chippewastud79]

and I thought I was a cigar snob

No, just a snob ;)

[Java]

Oh hey, Legend on CA, trolling the same way you did on CBid, at least the guys here are a little more patient.

[pnoon]

Oh hey, Legend on CA, trolling the same way you did on CBid, at least the guys here are a little more patient.

What happens on other boards, stays on other boards.

[Legend]

What happens on other boards, stays on other boards.

What other boards?

The asylum is it.

[pnoon]

What other boards?


The issues you have with members on the cbid forums should stay there.

[Legend]

The issues you have with members on the cbid forums should stay there.

Agreed. I have no idea who these guys are who bring up this board that doesn't exist to me.

[Bruzee]

Legend, you still looking for guinea pigs?

[pnoon]

Agreed. I have no idea who these guys are who bring up this board that doesn't exist to me.

Yeah. Right. :rolleyes:

Put . . . the . . . shovel . . . down. :2

[Genetic Defect]

Yeah. Right. :rolleyes:

Put . . . the . . . shovel . . . down. :2

http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s36/smilies-11255.png

[gnukfu]

Had this discussion on some other forums. When I had it on Cbid forum all hell broke loose. So I'll start with some disclaimers......


Agreed. I have no idea who these guys are who bring up this board that doesn't exist to me.

Hmm I wonder who brought it up...and who knew what sort of discussion would ensue....:ss

[Hardcz]

I'm not sure why there is a shovel but that's for summer time, it's not even spring yet.

[Java]

Im probably one of the few people that posts here and on Cbid (AFAIK anyways), but I just found it funny he is peddling the same thing here he is elsewhere, expecting a different reaction. I was never involved in the original conversation, and I won't entertain this one.

[Hardcz]

Im probably one of the few people that posts here and on Cbid (AFAIK anyways), but I just found it funny he is peddling the same thing here he is elsewhere, expecting a different reaction. I was never involved in the original conversation, and I won't entertain this one.


shovel.... down... whatever the hell that means...

Sounds like a reason to start a new thread friend...

So I guess this has been talked out... there's no proof to support these claims and yea.... move along folks, nothing to see here.

http://www.tooncrib.com/southpark/wallpapers/barbrady1024x768.jpg

[taltos]

The put down the shovel is advice to quit this line of discussion before you dig yourself into a deeper hole.:ss

[pnoon]

Im probably one of the few people that posts here and on Cbid (AFAIK anyways), but I just found it funny he is peddling the same thing here he is elsewhere, expecting a different reaction. I was never involved in the original conversation, and I won't entertain this one.

With that in mind, sometimes it is o.k. to just not post at all. This does nothing but stir $hit up.

[icehog3]

With that in mind, sometimes it is o.k. to just not post at all.

I never thought of that, Peter.


;) :r

[Legend]

With that in mind, sometimes it is o.k. to just not post at all. This does nothing but stir $hit up.

Yeah. And I got to figure out how to use emotes while posting with my blackberry.

I wasn't actually denying anything. Just making a sideways stab at the cbid forum. Saying it didn't exist (wink wink chuckle etc. )

Not sure why some here and there want this topic shut down as toxic. I think its interesting and if true very helpful to keep the local B&Ms going strong.

So do we have a third party volunteer to organize the blind test?

[Hardcz]

So do we have a third party volunteer to organize the blind test?

I'm bored and have nothing to live for.... what do you need to do this? I'll see what can be done on my end.

[rizzle]

What is going on around here the last few days?

http://www.showcaseyouth.com/Oh%20the%20Drama%203.jpg

[jkim05]

I don't know how to run the statistics on that type of experimental design. Anybody???

SPSS Analysis? lol.

[mithrilG60]

SPSS Analysis? lol.

Nah, go old school....... miniTab.

[icehog3]

Nah, go old school....... miniTab.

I prefer maxiTab. ;)

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa73/icehog3/Tab.jpg

[Genetic Defect]

wow! Tab was a coke product. didn't know that. :)

[Raralith]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_experiment

Read the description for "Double-blind trails."

[Hardcz]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_experiment

Read the description for "Double-blind trails."

We're going to be like cigar aficianado!

[icehog3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_experiment

Read the description for "Double-blind trails."

Are those for visually challenged hikers? ;)

[pmp]

Your differentiation between smoke shop and b&m is sort of muddled. By your logic most shops out there would fall under both categories depending on what brand you are referring to. Padron, Ashton, Fuente, etc...all require a certain intial box purchase followed up with a certain number of facings to become an authorized dealer. This binds you to their recommended MSRP and allows you to obtain alloted cigars In fact most cigar companies do. Unless you have a warehouse you can't really hope to become authorize for all non cuban cigars out there.

Just my .02, its not as black and white as you are making it out to be. I will say that I have noticed... and this is totally anecdotal. I have run across a few reps, Torano's come to mind, that carry cello wrapped sample packs for giving out at shops. To me these ALWAYS smoke better than the boxed counterparts....

not sure if its in my head. Maybe I'm just stoked to be smoking a free cigar. Maybe there is something to that.

[Starscream]

Your differentiation between smoke shop and b&m is sort of muddled. By your logic most shops out there would fall under both categories depending on what brand you are referring to. Padron, Ashton, Fuente, etc...all require a certain intial box purchase followed up with a certain number of facings to become an authorized dealer. This binds you to their recommended MSRP and allows you to obtain alloted cigars In fact most cigar companies do. Unless you have a warehouse you can't really hope to become authorize for all non cuban cigars out there.

Just my .02, its not as black and white as you are making it out to be. I will say that I have noticed... and this is totally anecdotal. I have run across a few reps, Torano's come to mind, that carry cello wrapped sample packs for giving out at shops. To me these ALWAYS smoke better than the boxed counterparts....

not sure if its in my head. Maybe I'm just stoked to be smoking a free cigar. Maybe there is something to that.
I'm not organizing this trial, but let's just say that CI, JR, and Holts are the internet retailers (even if they do have B&Ms). All of the mom and pop B&Ms, and even places like the Tinderbox we will consider B&Ms (for this test purpose only, if it even is a test). I know that leaves out a lot of other places, but those are the two extremes.

[Genetic Defect]

Are those for visually challenged hikers? ;)

blind leading the blind? :r

[Legend]

Just my .02, its not as black and white as you are making it out to be. I will say that I have noticed... and this is totally anecdotal. I have run across a few reps, Torano's come to mind, that carry cello wrapped sample packs for giving out at shops. To me these ALWAYS smoke better than the boxed counterparts....

not sure if its in my head. Maybe I'm just stoked to be smoking a free cigar. Maybe there is something to that.

Interesting observation. Maybe a Good B&M Owner knows how to get more of these Sticks!! Who knows?!

[pmp]

Interesting observation. Maybe a Good B&M Owner knows how to get more of these Sticks!! Who knows?!

From what I have heard, and I'm sure this differs from company to company but I don't think the reps are supposed to leave those with the shop. That said I have yet to leave a smoker where the rep didn't give a good portion of the remaining samples to the shop.

I'm sure we have some reps that frequent here. Maybe they could chime in.

[ahc4353]

I'll ask again.

Question for the OP. Are any other guys that hang out with you at your Lounge members of CA? I would like to read their thoughts. Please link me if I missed their input.

Thanks

[CoventryCat86]

I don't think there is any such difference between what you call "internet cigars" and "local B&M." There's just simply no way they can be segregated from one another during the distribution process.

[tedrodgerscpa]

I don't know how to run the statistics on that type of experimental design. Anybody???

SPSS Analysis? lol.

Nah, go old school....... miniTab.

SPSS is for girls....

SAS is the bomb


Don't you need those 5 1/4 inch floppy disks in order to run miniTab?!?

[WildBlueSooner]

Everyday I pray that this thread will not have any new posts that I have to read and everyday there are more. Damn it people! :)

[mithrilG60]

Don't you need those 5 1/4 inch floppy disks in order to run miniTab?!?

Pretty sure I used 3.5' floppy's for it in uni, that was also 12 or 13 years ago but I'm sure that 5.25" floppy's were dead antiques even then ;) Thankfully I haven't had to do any statistical analysis since I finished that course......

[Totemic]

I don't think there is any such difference between what you call "internet cigars" and "local B&M." There's just simply no way they can be segregated from one another during the distribution process.

Indeed.
Considering there are so many other factors that can influence the flavor of a given cigar, it seems like an unlikely stretch to imply there's a conspiracy on the part of the manufacturer to supply B&Ms with "good cigars" vs. internet distributors with "bad cigars".

Following Occam's razor, it's probably as simple as: B&M cigars are either aged longer and/or stored in a more consistent environment than some internet cigar distributors (I suspect it's just a bit more aged since my B&M rarely move large amounts of cigars--I think the Oliva V's they got in about 6+ months ago are still sitting on their shelves).

I personally, have not noticed any difference in the flavor. And since these days I tend to gravitate to the same half dozen or so blends, I've been mixing various cigars from both my B&M and those I purchased online. For instance, my stash of Oliva V torps consist of about 2 boxes worth of cigars. I have one full box that I got from an online distributor and the rest are a mix of Vs from online and those I bought from my B&M when almost none of the online vendors had them in stock.

Ditto with my Oliva Gs, DPGs, Padrons, and Ashtons. I don't even think about where the cigars came from, just how long it's been in my humidor--I ususally try to grab the oldest first.

[Totemic]

Pretty sure I used 3.5' floppy's for it in uni, that was also 12 or 13 years ago but I'm sure that 5.25" floppy's were dead antiques even then ;) Thankfully I haven't had to do any statistical analysis since I finished that course......

Damn youngsters..
I'm old enough to know what a 8" floppy disk looks like. I'm also old enough to know that if you have a hole puncher, you just turned all those single sided floppy disks into double sided floppies with twice the storage!

[Genetic Defect]

Pretty sure I used 3.5' floppy's for it in uni, that was also 12 or 13 years ago but I'm sure that 5.25" floppy's were dead antiques even then ;) Thankfully I haven't had to do any statistical analysis since I finished that course......

not in '93

[TheRiddick]

Damn youngsters..
I'm old enough to know what a 8" floppy disk looks like. I'm also old enough to know that if you have a hole puncher, you just turned all those single sided floppy disks into double sided floppies with twice the storage!

My first job programming job I had to use keypunch machines/cards, floppies appeared years later with first PCs. Or maybe with PDP 10/11?

[Legend]

I'll ask again.

Members of my lounge here? Not that I know of. Savor the stick went to the lounge a few times but has since relocated to orange county and never took part in any tests. Probably my fault. I haven't really shared the asylum with the botl there. However, this notion actually came from the guys there who had gone on trips to Honduras and the Dominican. I'll be on the next trip to Nicaragua in may. We will be guests of don pepin Garcia. I'll ask him directly and tell you what he says.

[md4958]

We will be guests of don pepin Garcia. I'll ask him directly and tell you what he says.

Its ok, I'll ask Don Pepin when hes at Habana Premium in Albany, NY on May 4th, and report back :tu

[SeanGAR]

SPSS is for girls....

SAS is the bomb


Don't you need those 5 1/4 inch floppy disks in order to run miniTab?!?

The last time I used SAS was on a terminal. I use Statistica 4.5 .. mainly because I paid ~700 for the software on seven 3.5" floppies in the early 90s. Copied the floppy files to a USB and it installs and runs just fine on Xp32. I runs everything that I understand LOL.

[gnukfu]

Its ok, I'll ask Don Pepin when hes at Habana Premium in Albany, NY on May 4th, and report back :tu

You name dropper Moe! So instead of visiting him he's coming to visit you? :mh

[chippewastud79]

You name dropper Moe! So instead of visiting him he's coming to visit you? :mh

Don Pepin is a guest of theirs :wo

[WildBlueSooner]

Who is Don Pepin and why are we talking about him? :)

[icehog3]

Who is Don Pepin and why are we talking about him? :)

Don José "Pepin" Garcia is currently the C.E.O. of El Rey de los Habanos, Inc, a cigar company in Miami, also known as Don Pepín Cigars. He is a noted cigar maker living in Miami, Florida. Born in Cuba, he is a master cigar roller and blender, and the creator and maker of numerous popular cigar brands.

Pepin Garcia brands
Don Pepin Garcia Blue Label
Don Pepin Garcia Serie JJ
El Rey de los Habanos
Vegas Cubanas

Client brands
Black Cat Cigar Company, Philadelphia, PA NOTE: As of ca. April 2008, these will no longer be made by Pepin.
Rey Miguel
Sam's GS Stash
The Cigar Merchant, Alpharetta, GA
Trahan Reserva Serie T
Cigar King, Scottsdale, AZ
Cuban Diplomat
Habana Leon
Havana Soul
Hirsh y Garcia
Nacionales “W”
Sancti Spiritus
Holt's Cigar Co., Philadelphia, PA
Little Havana Overruns
Tatuaje Cigars Inc
Tatuaje
Cabaiguán
Padilla Cigar Company, Hialeah, FL NOTE: As of early 2008, Pepin is no longer making these.
Padilla Miami 8 & 11
Padilla Signature 1932[11]
Padilla 1948

[Texan in Mexico]

Nicely done Admiral, I am a bit slow Googling on my Crackberry at this time of night!

[Ahbroody]

Do you really think that cigar manufacturers make varying quality cigars for B&Ms vs internet retailers? I just don't think that's possible. I do think that long-term storage can be a problem at some of the internet retailers. Many tend to keep cigars at higher humidity levels so they can ship better. If cigars are kept at over 70% humidity for long periods of time, I can see some chemical changes happening that could cause problems. I've also been at some B&M's with serious humidity issues. I just don't buy the fact that B&M's are getting "better" cigars.

MCS
Agreed also.
Most know and understand that internet sticks require longer before smoking. On first arrival most go to **** about 1/2 way. 4 months later I dont believe theres a difference. I said before and I will say again. I have done splits on internet cigars with PEOPLE WHO WORK AT B&M. They dont believe there to be a difference after the sticks have rested long enough.

That said when I walk into the B&M I go to and yes its a full blown shop, I generally always buy a stick even if I am smoking something from home such as an CC or less common stick. So long as I am not flat broke. I think most shops gripes are that regulars come in with internet sticks all the time rarely buy there sticks but use there facilities.

[Sr Mike]

The more I spend on a cigar, the better it should taste. Right?

[icehog3]

The more I spend on a cigar, the better it should taste. Right?

Absloutely not.

Gurkha Warrior......$7

Partagas Short....$4

Need I say more?

[montecristo#2]

Absloutely not.

Gurkha Warrior......$7

Partagas Short....$4

Need I say more?

:r :r

NC Cohiba....$10+ :pu

Padron Londres.....~$2

Need I say more as well? :D


This is an interesting discussion and I can honestly say I have not read through the entire thread.

The question I would want to know is turnover. I know B&Ms get a lot of foot traffic and probably sell more singles that internet stores, but what are those people buying? Are the people who frequent B&Ms looking for the same cigars as people who buy over the internet? I know when I go into local B&Ms (even ones with great selections) they often have the name brand cigars (montecristo, cohiba. . .) front and center or they have a large selection of Fuentes. I know when I go into a B&M I am looking for something specific to try as a single, when it comes to larger purchases I definitely go online.

Cigars are a handmade product, so it would not surprise me if there are slight differences between different batches in terms of blend and construction. Add that to the fact that cigars change with rest/age, storage conditions (RH) and it just doesn't seem possible. But you never know.

Also, I would assume you get a slightly different experience depending on how the cigar draws, how fast you smoke and how you cut the cigar. I know I personally do not like a punch as it concentrates the smoke too much for me. This is also the reason I typically make torpedos into robustos (:r I know this is against the rules but I like to live on the edge sometimes).

[icehog3]

:r

NC Cohiba....$10+ :pu

Padron Londres.....~$2

Need I say more as well? :D

Padron Londres $2

'01 Rafael Gonzales Corona Extra $1.36

Say more, Aaron. :r

[Genetic Defect]

Padron Londres $2

'01 Rafael Gonzales Corona Extra $1.36

Say more, Aaron. :r

I'll take the Padron.

[montecristo#2]

Padron Londres $2

'01 Rafael Gonzales Corona Extra $1.36

Say more, Aaron. :r


Hey, it doesn't count when they are on sale for ridiculous prices! :r

[icehog3]

I'll take the Padron.

Good, then we won't be wrestling.

Hey, it doesn't count when they are on sale for ridiculous prices! :r

Why? ;)

[montecristo#2]

Good, then we won't be wrestling.

Why? ;)

I bet you the Padrons draw better! :D :r :r :r

[Sr Mike]

Maybe I should expand my post.

Arturo Fuente Curly Head

B&M: $2
Internet: $0.63

Should I enjoy it more because of the cost? I doubt that they would really put the time into separating tobacco for B&M and internet retailers, it would be waste of time and cost. They make the same amount of money per box out of the factory. What difference would it make to them? None.

[icehog3]

I bet you the Padrons draw better! :D :r :r :r

You smoke the Padron Londres, I will smoke the RG CE, and we can compare notes. ;)

[Steve]

I have bought from both online and local shops. I prefer to buy most of my cigars from my local shop. It is located within a couple of miles from my house, always has a nice selection, friendly atmosphere, and usually good fellowship. If on the rare occasion that I get a bad stick, Howard is always quick to replace it with no fuss. Even factoring in gas and time, I can usually at worst come out even over paying for shipping. BUT, as I said, I am fortunate to have a local shop that is well stocked. I have spent some time in smaller towns that were not so fortunate.

As a matter of fact, I spent a couple of quality hours there this afternoon enjoying a couple of cigars, raiding the fridge in back for beer, and comparing hospital horror stories with the rest of the refugees from honeydo's that were hanging out there.


The sticks I enjoy the most are the ones from friends or that I enjoy with friends.

I will definately second (third, fourth, etc. this)!

BTW, When are you and Andrea looking to hit the Turtle again? Maybe I can make the trek up there to join ya.

[montecristo#2]

You smoke the Padron Londres, I will smoke the RG CE, and we can compare notes. ;)

Something tells me I will not be smoking a $2 cigar if we get a chance to smoke together in a couple of weeks!

[Genetic Defect]

Good, then we won't be wrestling.



Why? ;)

We can still wrastle ya big stud

[ahc4353]

Members of my lounge here? Not that I know of. Savor the stick went to the lounge a few times but has since relocated to orange county and never took part in any tests. Probably my fault. I haven't really shared the asylum with the botl there. However, this notion actually came from the guys there who had gone on trips to Honduras and the Dominican. I'll be on the next trip to Nicaragua in may. We will be guests of don pepin Garcia. I'll ask him directly and tell you what he says.

Its ok, I'll ask Don Pepin when hes at Habana Premium in Albany, NY on May 4th, and report back :tu

Enough 3rd and 4th person reporting here. Why not invite him here to post on his own?

The man type can't he? :D

Why not share the Asylum? Would love to hear from some of your smoking buddys.

[md4958]

Enough 3rd and 4th person reporting here. Why not invite him here to post on his own?

The man type can't he? :D

.

Ill BlackBerry him and tell him to register :r:r:r

[icehog3]

We can still wrastle ya big stud

No. No, we can't. ;)

[tedrodgerscpa]

Padron Londres $2

'01 Rafael Gonzales Corona Extra $1.36

Say more, Aaron. :r

I'll take the Padron.

I bet you the Padrons draw better! :D :r :r

You smoke the Padron Londres, I will smoke the RG CE, and we can compare notes. ;)

I'm with the muscle-bound guy for the win!

Smoking an 01 RG CE right now, with ZERO draw problems.

My local crew will tell you that I report 20~30% of Cubans have draw issues, but I've never met a RG that performed poorly.

[icehog3]

I'm with the muscle-bound guy for the win!

Smoking an 01 RG CE right now, with ZERO draw problems.

My local crew will tell you that I report 20~30% of Cubans have draw issues, but I've never met a RG that performed poorly.

:wnr:wo

I have had draw problems with maybe 5% tops of the CCs I have smoked, but I will take a 95% success rate for my preferred tastes.

[tedrodgerscpa]

:wnr:wo

I have had draw problems with maybe 5% tops of the CCs I have smoked, but I will take a 95% success rate for my preferred tastes.

In all fairness, my crew laughs at my estimates...

But then again, they laugh AT me often.

[icehog3]

In all fairness, my crew laughs at my estimates...

But then again, they laugh AT me often.

They are laughing with you, Ted! :D

[TheRiddick]

My local crew will tell you that I report 20~30% of Cubans have draw issues, but I've never met a RG that performed poorly.

But were these plugged cigars produced for the B&M (aka La Casa Habanos) or the internet shops most people buy from? :D

[JaKaacH]

In all fairness, my crew laughs at my estimates...

But then again, they laugh AT me often.

4/3 of cigar smokers have trouble with fractions.

[Volusianator]

4/3 of cigar smokers have trouble with fractions.

roflmfao

[Legend]

17/16 of 93% of stats listed on public forums are unreliable.

[Sr Mike]

17/16 of 93% of stats listed on public forums are unreliable.Everyone's a critic...

[Stogieboy]

Had this discussion on some other forums. When I had it on Cbid forum all hell broke loose. So I'll start with some disclaimers

Ok fire off!!

OK. So why did you start this thread? :confused: The title says "stirring the pot". Was that your intention? Just curious.

[Hardcz]

I'm getting pissed.

Here I was thinking I was going to get a bunch of free cigars to do a quintuplet blind test but now someone's just trying to wrastle me.... I don't like that kind of contact.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2u297_bodyslam-challenge-yokozuna-vs-usa_sport

[MajorCaptSilly]

I enjoy a good cigar now and then.http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=1432

MCS

[Legend]

OK. So why did you start this thread? :confused: The title says "stirring the pot". Was that your intention? Just curious.

When the concept was introduced on other sites there were very polarized reactions. Some near violent. But that forum was a bunch of a-holes who basically all had the same opinion and were ruthless to anyone outside of that. So I figured if try it here on a much more respectful crowd and see the results. I knew the potential for the topic to be volitile therefore the title. But the purpose was always to see what others thought. Everyone at the lounge I go to agrees with me on this but I'm finding that as far as the internet forum crowd goes we are a minority. That in and of itself might be telling. The guys at my lounge are not big into the internet forum. Not into internet cigars. Could all be attitude and personal perception. Either way. For the guy who thinks there is a difference if there is not or for the guy who thinks there is no difference if there is.

[Cigarcop]

17/16 of 93% of stats listed on public forums are unreliable.

I think your right, heres one:D

http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10764

[Kreth]

17/16 of 93% of stats listed on public forums are unreliable.

41% of statistics are made up.

[Stogieboy]

[QUOTE=Legend;268324]. But the purpose was always to see what others thought. QUOTE]

Ok. Here is my thought. I am a big fan of everything Padron makes.
Most of my Padron purchases are made at the local B&M, because he has great prices on Padrons and a nice shop I can sit and smoke in. I have purchased some Padrons online and find them to be the same excellent cigar.

[WildBlueSooner]

[QUOTE=Legend;268324]. But the purpose was always to see what others thought. QUOTE]

Ok. Here is my thought. I am a big fan of everything Padron makes.
Most of my Padron purchases are made at the local B&M, because he has great prices on Padrons and a nice shop I can sit and smoke in. I have purchased some Padrons online and find them to be the same excellent cigar.

:tpd: Keeping it nice and simple.

[Starscream]

17/16 of 93% of stats listed on public forums are unreliable.

41% of statistics are made up.

:r
Nice one, fellas!:tu

[WildBlueSooner]

Statistics are like whores, play with them long enough and they'll do anything for you.

[Hardcz]

What about me? What about my needs? :rolleyes:

[Legend]

What about me? What about my needs? :rolleyes:

To quote the famous Bob Wiley "gimmie gimmie gimmie. I need. I need. Gimmie gimmie "

[chenvt]

:r
Nice one, fellas!:tu

Here's a stat:

Sex panther. 60% of the time it works, every time

[ahc4353]

Here's a stat:

Sex panther. 60% of the time it works, every time

:r

I love that movie.

:r

[ahc4353]

This should clear up the percentage debate:

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/2031/linknd8.gif (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz3KpY5lrRc&feature=related)

[Hardcz]

I think you guys should mail me all of your wordly possessions, I'm gonna start a cult where you guys think I'm awesome. I'm going to start an amusement park called Dan Land, and only I'm allowed to go in it. You all can maintenance my rides.

[icehog3]

I think you guys should mail me all of your wordly possessions, I'm gonna start a cult where you guys think I'm awesome. I'm going to start an amusement park called Dan Land, and only I'm allowed to go in it. You all can maintenance my rides.

Good luck with that, Dan. ;)

[pnoon]

pnoon thinks this thread has gone way past its shelf life.
:2

[JKim]

Everyone knows that Internet cigars are CREs. Cigars Ready to Eat

[Hardcz]

Good luck with that, Dan. ;)

Thanks, I'll give you special access to Vodka Land.

[md4958]

pnoon thinks this thread has gone way past its shelf life.
:2

md4958 thinks Peter is funny! :r:r:r

and correct :tu

[gvarsity]

I think your conspiracy theory would take more time and energy than it is worth. For the most part same blend lower quality sticks are marketed as 2nds, overuns, knockoffs etc... There may be handling or storage issues whatever but cigars have variation where you can have differences in the same box let alone between different production runs.

If there was a significant actual difference in the product I think it quickly noticed buy consumers in general change the value of the economic equation for internet retailers and make a significant impact on internet sales. People aren't just looking for cheap smokes they are looking for the same cigars but at lower cost. There are number of reasons why internet retailers can have significantly lower prices.

Internet sales are primarily about cost. Internet providers can sell lower due to markets of scale for the large sellers like CS, lack of having to maintain the same ratio of retail space as a B & M and by avoiding state sales tax which in some states like CA are very significant. I suspect that the large warehouses of companies like CI are more consistently managed and maintained for temp and humidity than the majority of B&M retailers.

The benefits of a B&M stick are you are supporting a local business and likely an independent owner, you get to develop a relationship with the people that work there, have a community of other cigar smokers and often a comfortable place to enjoy your cigars in peace. Both have their benefits and drawbacks but in general they targeting very different aspects of the market.

For the smoker who has his own smoking room and prefers to smoke alone there is almost no incentive to shop at a B&M unless they want an occasional single between internet purchases and they don't want to pay the shipping. On the other hand someone who smokes infrequently and/or doesn't maintain a large personal humidor and appreciates the community of a local smoke shop and has access to a B&M that stocks most of what said smoker is interested in that smoker has almost no incentive to shop online.

In the end the question is not very meaningful. Internet purchasing and B&M purchasing satisfy different requirements once you get past the most basic transaction of trading money for cigars. Many of us do some of each to satisfy both sets of interests.


DOH should have read the whole thread and realized this debate was long past dead. Oh well since I wrote it I'll leave it up anyway.:bh:bh:bh

[Legend]

DOH should have read the whole thread and realized this debate was long past dead. Oh well since I wrote it I'll leave it up anyway.:bh:bh:bh

The debate may be dead but it went basically like a DNC primary. A lot of opinions. No facts. A few personal attacks and no consensus.

I kill me.

[Legend]

The debate may be dead but it went basically like a DNC primary. A lot of opinions. No facts. A few personal attacks and no consensus.

I kill me.

The only way it could have resembled a DNC Primary more would have been if we had all called press conferences afterwards and claimed victory!

:dance::fu Oh wow man, I'm on a roll :ss

[thebiglebowski]

The only way it could have resembled a DNC Primary more would have been if we had all called press conferences afterwards and claimed victory!

:dance::fu Oh wow man, I'm on a roll :ss

why are you replying to yourself?

[SeanGAR]

why are you replying to yourself?

Perhaps the weed at the B&M is also better than the stuff you get online.

[Hardcz]

why are you replying to yourself?

I was scratching my big belly wondering the same thing.

[md4958]

I kill me.


:dance::fu Oh wow man, I'm on a roll :ss

well, at least YOU find yourself funny.

[Hardcz]

Hardcz finds this most disturbing

[Starscream]

What about the RNC? According to the Fairness Doctrine, equal time must be given to both parties.
What happened to the no politics rule here at CA?

[Hardcz]

Hardcz is just talking about cutting cigars in half, what politics?

[Starscream]

Hardcz is just talking about cutting cigars in half, what politics?

andysutherland cut a Lusi in half once.:tu

[MajorCaptSilly]

This is all my fault.

MCS

[Hardcz]

Hardcz is glad Legend is not a commedian, because he would starve to death.

[Legend]

This is all my fault.

MCS

Agreed.

[Legend]

Hardcz is glad Legend is not a commedian, because he would starve to death.

Agreed. But I entertain the hell out of myself. I just do. Its true. I can't help it. I make myself giggle like a little girl.

[Hardcz]

Hardcz is seriously wondering what happened to this quintuplet blind taste test that was going to be supplied..... he broke out his food stamps and everything.

[Starscream]

Andysutherland entertains himself from time to time, but has learned not to entertain others.