NHL '11 - '12 Thread

[icehog3]

All valid points, Geoff, with the possible exception of the Player's Union backing the suspensions you propose...it will never happen, bet my job on it.

Also even making the suspensions automatic will be a problem, as there are often hits which impact the head, where the head was not "targeted". Who makes the subjective call on the objective standard.

I agree competely that head hits warrant some changes. I would argue that the Hawks' loss of Toews is more significant than the Canucks losing Daniel, but that is subjective as well. I just doin't think the changes that you propose have a popsicle's chance in Hell of getting put into place. That being said, I reitierate that I think you make lots of valid points.

Wow!

[mithrilG60]

Originally Posted by icehog3

All valid points, Geoff, with the possible exception of the Player's Union backing the suspensions you propose...it will never happen, bet my job on it.

Also even making the suspensions automatic will be a problem, as there are often hits which impact the head, where the head was not "targeted". Who makes the subjective call on the objective standard.

I agree competely that head hits warrant some changes. I would argue that the Hawks' loss of Toews is more significant than the Canucks losing Daniel, but that is subjective as well. I just doin't think the changes that you propose have a popsicle's chance in Hell of getting put into place. That being said, I reitierate that I think you make lots of valid points.

I don't expect it will ever happen, but it's actions like that which are needed to remove these kind of hits from the game. This air-fairy small suspension crap that the league seems to want to hand out is just not disincentive enough to make a real difference.

The ONLY way to remove it is to enforce mandatory penalties. Given Shannahan (or whoever) the ability to excise judgement calls in headshots just leads to scenarios where weak meaningless suspensions are issued and the game continues on as before because there's no muscle in the punishment. Automatic penalties force players to be accountable for their actions and while some may very occasionally get the shaft the overall result will be to almost entirely remove headshots from the game.

Rugby did it with spear tackles. The NFL did it with head contact. The NHL needs to do it with headshots.

I'd agree with out that Toews is probably more important overall to the Hawks org than Sedin is to the Canucks (especially in March ) but just because the Canucks currently have greater offensive depth doesn't discount the fact that they are now without their top offensive player and the league has lost yet another of it's star players. To me it doesn't really matter whether you're talking about the league's top star or the least skilled 4th liner on the last place team in the league.... the penalty for a headshot should be the same and it should be very very harsh.

[icehog3]

Again, I agree with most of your points. Just don't see how the "Automatic" part would work because there are too many subjective factors to treat each case exactly the same.

[E.J.]

Think Avs have to win their next 4 or pull out the golf clubs... Though they may have exceeded my expectations, they have sleepwalked some games late(PHX)... Where is Matty D when we need him?

GO AVS!!!!

[mithrilG60]

That's the good thing about automatic penalties though, it removes all of the subjective factors which are currently preventing progress on the issue. For example, look at what rugby did to remove spear tackles from the game.

You are responsible as the tackler to control your man and guide him to the ground in a safe and legal matter. If you raise his ankles above his waist in the tackle, whether it's and you get an automatic red card (leaving your team 1 man short for the rest of the match) and a game suspension.

It doesn't matter whether your action was intentional or accidental, you failed in your responsibility to protect another player's safety on the field and you have to pay the consequence. You are also automatically reviewed by a disciplinary panel and if the act is deemed intentional you are subjected to further fines and suspensions.

While a 1 match automatic suspension may not sound like a lot, the average professional rugby player plays about 16 matches per year (1 a week, just like the NFL) so that's roughly equal to an NHL player getting an automatic 5 game suspension. As a result of that rule change spear tackles have all be been removed for the game and a lot of serious head and spinal injuries avoided.

It's worked in other high speed, high impact professional sports... there's no reason other than the NHL's unwillingness to be accountable that it can't work here too.

[icehog3]

Originally Posted by mithrilG60

That's the good thing about automatic penalties though, it removes all of the subjective factors which are currently preventing progress on the issue. For example, look at what rugby did to remove spear tackles from the game.

You are responsible as the tackler to control your man and guide him to the ground in a safe and legal matter. If you raise his ankles above his waist in the tackle, whether it's and you get an automatic red card (leaving your team 1 man short for the rest of the match) and a game suspension.

It doesn't matter whether your action was intentional or accidental, you failed in your responsibility to protect another player's safety on the field and you have to pay the consequence. You are also automatically reviewed by a disciplinary panel and if the act is deemed intentional you are subjected to further fines and suspensions.

This IS subjective!

While a 1 match automatic suspension may not sound like a lot, the average professional rugby player plays about 16 matches per year (1 a week, just like the NFL) so that's roughly equal to an NHL player getting an automatic 5 game suspension. As a result of that rule change spear tackles have all be been removed for the game and a lot of serious head and spinal injuries avoided.

It's worked in other high speed, high impact professional sports... there's no reason other than the NHL's unwillingness to be accountable that it can't work here too.

OK, I can go with rugby's lead. So now the NHL will mandate a hit to the head is an automatic one game suspension. Then hits will be automatically reviewed by a disciplinary panel and if the act is deemed intentional they are subjected to further fines and suspensions.

Not a lot different really, is it?

[mithrilG60]

The secondary review is subjective, the initial penalties are not. As a direct result of the new rule almost every single one of the incidents sent to that review board is an accidental lift in the course of normal play.... there are very very few internationals anymore. It's completely removed the Matt Cooke-ism from the game of rugby.

I'm more than fine with running with rugby's example as a start. If the league would implement an automatic 5 min major, game misconduct and 5 game minimum suspension (remember, 1 game in rugby is 1/16th of the season which is 5 games in an 82 game season) for all headshots with a mandatory review to determine if there was intent and therefore further suspension I bet you'd see a huge change in player behaviour.

Now, gotta hop in a cab to head down to Rogers Arena to see if the Canucks can manage to do something against the Kings

[icehog3]

I actually will say good luck to the Canucks tonight, anybody below the Hawks in the hunt needs to lose.

[44stampede]

Good convo going here.

I am with Geoff for the most part. All good points. When there is something tough to measure like intent we still need something to penalize otherwise there is no way to change the culture. I hate not seeing Crosby out there. Everyone loses by not having those superstars including Toews and Sedin on the ice. It is bound to happen where an "innocent" person gets penalized for a hit that was an accident but if it is on a sliding scale as Geoff points out, it is highly unlikely that the same person would accidently do it again and again.

It's still unlikely something sweeping like that would happen. Small moves are usually the par for the course. I think they are getting closer to coming out with something.

[Ahbroody]

Originally Posted by E.J.

Think Avs have to win their next 4 or pull out the golf clubs... Though they may have exceeded my expectations, they have sleepwalked some games late(PHX)... Where is Matty D when we need him?

GO AVS!!!!

Sorry brother. The Sharks played a great game and the hockey gods smiled on them. Sharks take over lead in the pacific and go from 9th to 3rd

[mithrilG60]

Originally Posted by icehog3

I actually will say good luck to the Canucks tonight, anybody below the Hawks in the hunt needs to lose.

You're welcome

[icehog3]

Originally Posted by mithrilG60

You're welcome

Shutout bonus! Bobby Luo is my fantasy team goalie.

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by Ahbroody

Sorry brother. The Sharks played a great game and the hockey gods smiled on them. Sharks take over lead in the pacific and go from 9th to 3rd

We were getting update feeds here and killing our pain with liquor, Mike... Ugh.... That's a wrap....

Flip side, good for your Sharks

[E.J.]

Side note, though not an Avs game, they're showing hockey nightly at our hotel in the sports bar, sweet deal...

[44stampede]

Some BIG games in the west. Flames need this and the Oil need to make fodder of the Stars.

[44stampede]

Come on VAN!

[icehog3]

Flames and Avs are toast. Looks like the Sharks, Stars, Kings and Yotes are in for a crazy couple weeks.

[icehog3]

Heading down to the United Center tomorrow night, hoping the Hawks can give the Blues a good game without Toews and Keith.

[mithrilG60]

Don't forget it's also Leaf Day