Electrician question?

rack04 · 08-31-2009, 08:51 AM

My wife and I are looking to buy our first home. The house we're looking at was built in 1954. According to the inspection report the house does not have a grounding electrode, which I guess is common for this period of construction. What are my options for grounding the two pronged electrical outlets and replacing with three pronged outlets? I have read that the code allows the ungrounded two pronged electrical outlets to be replaced with GFCI outlets but this just doesn't seem safe to me since the outlet is still ungrounded. If we decide to buy the house we are already planning to upgrade the 100 amp panel box and relocate from the coat closet. Thanks for any help.

14holestogie · 08-31-2009, 10:01 AM

I am no electrician, but I've done some in my older homes.

You can replace the 2 prong plugs with 3 prong plugs, but if only 2 strand wire was used originally, the only advantage would be you could plug in the newer grounded plugs. The outlet itself would not be grounded unless 3 wire cable was used and would still be unprotected.

smokeyandthebandit05 · 08-31-2009, 10:02 AM

Im an electrician. The way to protect the outlets is to replace the first outlet in the circuit with the GFCI. The way it works is there is a sensor that monitors the amperage goin back on the neutral so it is protecting you, they trip at 4 to 6 milliamps. If your planning on replace the panel, it is more expensive but you can throw in the GFCI breakers. They are more expensive but it saves on time and labor.

http://www.electricalmarketplace.com...on-W1C124.aspx

BigFrank · 08-31-2009, 10:08 AM

Pm sent.

BORIStheBLADE · 08-31-2009, 10:09 AM

Well the reason why code makes you change to a GFCI is because the GFCI detects current leaking and shuts the power down in a split second. That is quick enough to prevent anyone from getting shocked. Thats what they are pretty much worried about when they use GFCI's.

I would probably look into GFCI breakers instead of changing all the outlets, but you might have issues with your fridge.

A ground directs the power away from the situation and is supposed to trip the breaker.. In some cases having a ground is good because if you have a electronic device that has a power wire come loose and touch the casing it would trip the breaker. This would keep you from being shocked. On the other hand a lot of stuff now a days is double insulated and that would never happen.

To be honest with you not having grounded plugs isn't really that big of a deal. I have been living in homes without grounded plugs forever. I would say change the plugs in the kitchen and bathrooms to GFCI's for sure because you will be near water.

I would make sure that my main panel where ever it may be had a ground rod connected to it for sure.

Your electronic devices aren't going to blow up because they aren't grounded.

Nobody can guarantee that having a grounded plug will keep a surge from ruining anything either.

If you were interested in grounding plugs That could be a pretty big project. I'm not certain for sure, but I recall them changing the code to where you can't run a separate ground anymore. If thats the case its going to be an expensive job now.

To top it off in different areas they could add to the code because remember the code is "the bare minimum required" So I'm not sure what exactly the code is in your area.

Rabidsquirrel · 08-31-2009, 10:51 AM

Smokey and Boris are correct. Although GFCI breakers can get expensive though, depending on what panel you have. With a GFCI, you can replace the first device with the GFCI, and feed all downstream devices with it, meaning you may only need a few.

I disagree with Boris about his stance on the ground though. It's not to prevent surges or protecting equipment, it's about protecting people.

I'm a member of Local 98, Philadelphia. I wonder how many other I.B.E.W. brothers are here.

I'm going to look up that running a separate wire thing Boris. I'm procrastinating about doing housework, so this is just the thing I need.

BORIStheBLADE · 08-31-2009, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabidsquirrel

Smokey and Boris are correct. Although GFCI breakers can get expensive though, depending on what panel you have. With a GFCI, you can replace the first device with the GFCI, and feed all downstream devices with it, meaning you may only need a few.

I disagree with Boris about his stance on the ground though. It's not to prevent surges or protecting equipment, it's about protecting people.

I'm a member of Local 98, Philadelphia. I wonder how many other I.B.E.W. brothers are here.

I'm going to look up that running a separate wire thing Boris. I'm procrastinating about doing housework, so this is just the thing I need.

I didnt say it helps with surges. I said you can't guarantee having a ground will help with surges. I agree with the safety for people. People think its mostly for electronics safety.

Ya let me know about the separate ground code. I usually work in commercial and industrial so I forget about some of the house stuff.

Rabidsquirrel · 08-31-2009, 11:08 AM

406.3(D)(3)(a)/(b)/(c) deals with replacement of a non grounded receptacle. I didn't really see anything about not running a separate ground wire, but I'll keep checking.

Another reason I'm for changing over receptacles:

New TVs, computers, electronic equipment all have a three prong plug.

I don't know why I forgot about that since I just had to deal with it. This is a relatively new house, but they cut the grounds back on the romex, twisted them together, and put in ungrounded receptacles. Luckily they didn't cut them back far enough that I couldn't throw a tail on there. They also removed the ground screws from the switches.

BORIStheBLADE · 08-31-2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabidsquirrel

406.3(D)(3)(a)/(b)/(c) deals with replacement of a non grounded receptacle. I didn't really see anything about not running a separate ground wire, but I'll keep checking.

Another reason I'm for changing over receptacles:

New TVs, computers, electronic equipment all have a three prong plug.

I don't know why I forgot about that since I just had to deal with it. This is a relatively new house, but they cut the grounds back on the romex, twisted them together, and put in ungrounded receptacles. Luckily they didn't cut them back far enough that I couldn't throw a tail on there. They also removed the ground screws from the switches.

The company wiring the homes probably wanted to get out of there. Or the guy wiring that place sucked!

OOO.. I was just thinking about that code. Maybe they added it to the codes in the county by me. That would be an addendum right?

Rabidsquirrel · 08-31-2009, 11:50 AM

I believe so. Addendum by the AHJ sounds official enough for me.

rack04 · 08-31-2009, 11:56 AM

So the best way to check for a ground is to crack open the receptacle and see if there is a bare ground? Will the ground usually be connected to the receptacle?

BORIStheBLADE · 08-31-2009, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rack04

So the best way to check for a ground is to crack open the receptacle and see if there is a bare ground? Will the ground usually be connected to the receptacle?

Well if you have a tester you can see without pulling out the plug. I think testing with a tester would be the 100% answer.

Sometimes what you see might not be right.... That sounds like something from the Matrix but I'm serious.

rack04 · 08-31-2009, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BORIStheBLADE

Well if you have a tester you can see without pulling out the plug. I think testing with a tester would be the 100% answer.

Sometimes what you see might not be right.... That sounds like something from the Matrix but I'm serious.

How do I test for ground on a two pronged outlet?

Like this?

BORIStheBLADE · 08-31-2009, 12:32 PM

Your right.. I was thinking about the three prong plug. So ya you can pull it off the wall and see if a ground wire is in the box.

BigFrank · 08-31-2009, 01:23 PM

What's the cost different between GFCI breakers and receptacles? Do they get more expensive if you need a 2 pole? Have yet to run into an instance where I need to use GFCI breakers for residential. But then again, Im in the same boat as Boris almost all commercial and industrial work for me., unless its side work.

fpkjr · 08-31-2009, 02:06 PM

I'm from 488
Not only will the contractor doing the service have to fix all the problems IE. ungrounded plugs, if I'm not mistaken he also has to put arc protection on your upstairs circuits. Perhaps the guys who work on houses could chime in!
I do know with older Metal caze wiring you probally lost your bond to the panel. That being said, GFCI only works as well as the cable/ wire pulled.
You might want to save a major headache and find out what your local Instector wants because the national code is bare minimum.
I'd bite the bullet and rewire the entire home, before you move in!
This cost will more then likely be deducted when closing.
Good luck
F

Rabidsquirrel · 08-31-2009, 06:12 PM

I'm on the Commercial/Industrial side, but I think I can answer a few questions. From what I've seen, AFCI/GFCI breaks are about $30 plus, while a GFCI receptacle is around $10.

Depending on the AHJ and if the house is being sold FHA, he may or may not have to replace any of the receptacles. You may be able to get that written into your agreement that the owner has to either fix it himself or give you money to do it.

2008 code requires {210.12 (B)} in Dwelling Units that :

All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit

Underlining indicates a change in the code. Now, this only applies to new construction, and only if your area has adopted the code yet. I know Philly is still going off the 2005 code. There are various exceptions, but I doubt anyone is interested in them.

nth edit: I doubt the face plate will be grounded, as per one of the posts about. With the age of the house I'm guessing cloth romex was used, and no pipe or BX.

BORIStheBLADE · 08-31-2009, 06:43 PM

The new use of the arc faults is a good thing for new homes.It will help with fires and stuff. I got a chance to play with them in some high end homes.

I wouldn't dare try to put them in a house wired already.

To the OP. If you are worried about this electrical work you might want to think about looking at other homes. I don't know if you have a pending offer on this place , but its a thought. You can tell your realtor to see if he or she can find places with an better electrical system.

I don't know how much money or if any the owner will take off the house price. Its still worth a shot to see if they will take less.

If your going to spend money on having an electrician come by and upgrade your service to 100 amp and ground all or some plugs its going to add some more money to the mix.

Where I live service changes go for about $2,000.00 just alone.

BigFrank · 08-31-2009, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BORIStheBLADE

Where I live service changes go for about $2,000.00 just alone.

Close to that here. 1500-1750 for a 100amp upgrade in server. But then again most houses around here are very old and usually require a little extra work.

08-31-2009, 07:55 PM

I do this everyday and I WOULD NOT replace the 2 wire receptacles with 3 wire receptacles, it is a code violation. We have replaced 2 wire with GFCI receptacles and run a grounded circuit(s) for the things that need them most (i.e. fridge, washer, computors, tv's ect.) For the $$ upgrade to 200 amps and rewire the house to current code. We are working the 2008 NEC which includes Tamper proof receptacles (both GFCI and regular) and Arc fault breakers. We just finished a duplex (1100 sq ft/unit) with 125 amp panels, GFCI's in kitchens, baths, unfinished spaces and garages all tamper proof recpts and arc fault breakers the cost was well north of 10k. I have not done a single residence remodel yet but have bid a few most are running about 2k for the service and 5-10k for the rewiring.

The 2008 Code has added about $2-3/sq ft to remodeling cost and about $1/sq ft to new constuction costs. What a great time to adopt the code but safety should always be the #1 concern and these change do make a home safer. We do/bid a lot of work in surrounding counties with no code enforcement and our bid-win ratio is now terrible with most contractors hard up for work and not following the most recent Code changes, we try to promote our bids a safer and Code compliant but $$ is the bottom line.

As always hire a Certified/licensed contractor, some will give free estimates. My two cents, Find one who does and see if it is feesible to rewire.

08-31-2009, 10:01 AM	#2
14holestogie Serial banter killer Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Tim Location: Clintonville, WI Posts: 4,341 Trading: (52)	Re: Electrician question? I am no electrician, but I've done some in my older homes. You can replace the 2 prong plugs with 3 prong plugs, but if only 2 strand wire was used originally, the only advantage would be you could plug in the newer grounded plugs. The outlet itself would not be grounded unless 3 wire cable was used and would still be unprotected. __________________ *I loves me a Parti*

08-31-2009, 10:02 AM	#3
smokeyandthebandit05 Feeling at Home Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Rich Location: Branchville Posts: 758 Trading: (1)	Re: Electrician question? Im an electrician. The way to protect the outlets is to replace the first outlet in the circuit with the GFCI. The way it works is there is a sensor that monitors the amperage goin back on the neutral so it is protecting you, they trip at 4 to 6 milliamps. If your planning on replace the panel, it is more expensive but you can throw in the GFCI breakers. They are more expensive but it saves on time and labor. http://www.electricalmarketplace.com...on-W1C124.aspx __________________ MIAMI CANES 9-4 NJ DEVILS 37-21-3

08-31-2009, 10:08 AM	#4
BigFrank 5 3 1 Join Date: Nov 2008 First Name: Frank Location: Gym or Sofa. Posts: 1,896 Trading: (25)	Re: Electrician question? Pm sent. __________________ " Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. "

08-31-2009, 10:09 AM	#5
BORIStheBLADE _ Join Date: Nov 2008 First Name: Mike Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 643 Trading: (4)	Re: Electrician question? Well the reason why code makes you change to a GFCI is because the GFCI detects current leaking and shuts the power down in a split second. That is quick enough to prevent anyone from getting shocked. Thats what they are pretty much worried about when they use GFCI's. I would probably look into GFCI breakers instead of changing all the outlets, but you might have issues with your fridge. A ground directs the power away from the situation and is supposed to trip the breaker.. In some cases having a ground is good because if you have a electronic device that has a power wire come loose and touch the casing it would trip the breaker. This would keep you from being shocked. On the other hand a lot of stuff now a days is double insulated and that would never happen. To be honest with you not having grounded plugs isn't really that big of a deal. I have been living in homes without grounded plugs forever. I would say change the plugs in the kitchen and bathrooms to GFCI's for sure because you will be near water. I would make sure that my main panel where ever it may be had a ground rod connected to it for sure. Your electronic devices aren't going to blow up because they aren't grounded. Nobody can guarantee that having a grounded plug will keep a surge from ruining anything either. If you were interested in grounding plugs That could be a pretty big project. I'm not certain for sure, but I recall them changing the code to where you can't run a separate ground anymore. If thats the case its going to be an expensive job now. To top it off in different areas they could add to the code because remember the code is "the bare minimum required" So I'm not sure what exactly the code is in your area. __________________ I.B.E.W LOCAL # 617

08-31-2009, 10:51 AM	#6
Rabidsquirrel Moderately Confused Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Pennsylvania, US Posts: 576 Trading: (5)	Re: Electrician question? Smokey and Boris are correct. Although GFCI breakers can get expensive though, depending on what panel you have. With a GFCI, you can replace the first device with the GFCI, and feed all downstream devices with it, meaning you may only need a few. I disagree with Boris about his stance on the ground though. It's not to prevent surges or protecting equipment, it's about protecting people. I'm a member of Local 98, Philadelphia. I wonder how many other I.B.E.W. brothers are here. I'm going to look up that running a separate wire thing Boris. I'm procrastinating about doing housework, so this is just the thing I need.

08-31-2009, 08:51 AM	#1
rack04 Lebowski Urban Achiever Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Justin Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 1,023 Trading: (20)	Electrician question? My wife and I are looking to buy our first home. The house we're looking at was built in 1954. According to the inspection report the house does not have a grounding electrode, which I guess is common for this period of construction. What are my options for grounding the two pronged electrical outlets and replacing with three pronged outlets? I have read that the code allows the ungrounded two pronged electrical outlets to be replaced with GFCI outlets but this just doesn't seem safe to me since the outlet is still ungrounded. If we decide to buy the house we are already planning to upgrade the 100 amp panel box and relocate from the coat closet. Thanks for any help. __________________ "Why don't you put them in your secret compartment" - 12stones (Ricky)

08-31-2009, 11:08 AM	#8
Rabidsquirrel Moderately Confused Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Pennsylvania, US Posts: 576 Trading: (5)	Re: Electrician question? 406.3(D)(3)(a)/(b)/(c) deals with replacement of a non grounded receptacle. I didn't really see anything about not running a separate ground wire, but I'll keep checking. Another reason I'm for changing over receptacles: New TVs, computers, electronic equipment all have a three prong plug. I don't know why I forgot about that since I just had to deal with it. This is a relatively new house, but they cut the grounds back on the romex, twisted them together, and put in ungrounded receptacles. Luckily they didn't cut them back far enough that I couldn't throw a tail on there. They also removed the ground screws from the switches.

08-31-2009, 11:50 AM	#10
Rabidsquirrel Moderately Confused Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Pennsylvania, US Posts: 576 Trading: (5)	Re: Electrician question? I believe so. Addendum by the AHJ sounds official enough for me.

08-31-2009, 11:56 AM	#11
rack04 Lebowski Urban Achiever Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Justin Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 1,023 Trading: (20)	Re: Electrician question? So the best way to check for a ground is to crack open the receptacle and see if there is a bare ground? Will the ground usually be connected to the receptacle? __________________ "Why don't you put them in your secret compartment" - 12stones (Ricky)

08-31-2009, 12:32 PM	#14
BORIStheBLADE _ Join Date: Nov 2008 First Name: Mike Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 643 Trading: (4)	Re: Electrician question? Your right.. I was thinking about the three prong plug. So ya you can pull it off the wall and see if a ground wire is in the box. __________________ I.B.E.W LOCAL # 617

08-31-2009, 01:23 PM	#15
BigFrank 5 3 1 Join Date: Nov 2008 First Name: Frank Location: Gym or Sofa. Posts: 1,896 Trading: (25)	Re: Electrician question? What's the cost different between GFCI breakers and receptacles? Do they get more expensive if you need a 2 pole? Have yet to run into an instance where I need to use GFCI breakers for residential. But then again, Im in the same boat as Boris almost all commercial and industrial work for me., unless its side work. __________________ " Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. "

08-31-2009, 02:06 PM	#16
fpkjr In from the cold Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Naugatuck River Valley Posts: 17 Trading: (1)	Re: Electrician question? I'm from 488 Not only will the contractor doing the service have to fix all the problems IE. ungrounded plugs, if I'm not mistaken he also has to put arc protection on your upstairs circuits. Perhaps the guys who work on houses could chime in! I do know with older Metal caze wiring you probally lost your bond to the panel. That being said, GFCI only works as well as the cable/ wire pulled. You might want to save a major headache and find out what your local Instector wants because the national code is bare minimum. I'd bite the bullet and rewire the entire home, before you move in! This cost will more then likely be deducted when closing. Good luck F

08-31-2009, 06:12 PM	#17
Rabidsquirrel Moderately Confused Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Pennsylvania, US Posts: 576 Trading: (5)	Re: Electrician question? I'm on the Commercial/Industrial side, but I think I can answer a few questions. From what I've seen, AFCI/GFCI breaks are about $30 plus, while a GFCI receptacle is around $10. Depending on the AHJ and if the house is being sold FHA, he may or may not have to replace any of the receptacles. You may be able to get that written into your agreement that the owner has to either fix it himself or give you money to do it. 2008 code requires {210.12 (B)} in Dwelling Units that : All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit Underlining indicates a change in the code. Now, this only applies to new construction, and only if your area has adopted the code yet. I know Philly is still going off the 2005 code. There are various exceptions, but I doubt anyone is interested in them. nth edit: I doubt the face plate will be grounded, as per one of the posts about. With the age of the house I'm guessing cloth romex was used, and no pipe or BX.

08-31-2009, 06:43 PM	#18
BORIStheBLADE _ Join Date: Nov 2008 First Name: Mike Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 643 Trading: (4)	Re: Electrician question? The new use of the arc faults is a good thing for new homes.It will help with fires and stuff. I got a chance to play with them in some high end homes. I wouldn't dare try to put them in a house wired already. To the OP. If you are worried about this electrical work you might want to think about looking at other homes. I don't know if you have a pending offer on this place , but its a thought. You can tell your realtor to see if he or she can find places with an better electrical system. I don't know how much money or if any the owner will take off the house price. Its still worth a shot to see if they will take less. If your going to spend money on having an electrician come by and upgrade your service to 100 amp and ground all or some plugs its going to add some more money to the mix. Where I live service changes go for about $2,000.00 just alone. __________________ I.B.E.W LOCAL # 617

08-31-2009, 07:55 PM	#20
cf2112 Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Electrician question? I do this everyday and I WOULD NOT replace the 2 wire receptacles with 3 wire receptacles, it is a code violation. We have replaced 2 wire with GFCI receptacles and run a grounded circuit(s) for the things that need them most (i.e. fridge, washer, computors, tv's ect.) For the $$ upgrade to 200 amps and rewire the house to current code. We are working the 2008 NEC which includes Tamper proof receptacles (both GFCI and regular) and Arc fault breakers. We just finished a duplex (1100 sq ft/unit) with 125 amp panels, GFCI's in kitchens, baths, unfinished spaces and garages all tamper proof recpts and arc fault breakers the cost was well north of 10k. I have not done a single residence remodel yet but have bid a few most are running about 2k for the service and 5-10k for the rewiring. The 2008 Code has added about $2-3/sq ft to remodeling cost and about $1/sq ft to new constuction costs. What a great time to adopt the code but safety should always be the #1 concern and these change do make a home safer. We do/bid a lot of work in surrounding counties with no code enforcement and our bid-win ratio is now terrible with most contractors hard up for work and not following the most recent Code changes, we try to promote our bids a safer and Code compliant but $$ is the bottom line. As always hire a Certified/licensed contractor, some will give free estimates. My two cents, Find one who does and see if it is feesible to rewire.