Clarification on beads, KL and SAP

Two points from a very informative earlier thread that I want clarification:

Originally Posted by shilala

I just read what I wrote, and left out a biggie.
"Propylene/water hydrated SAP doesn't adsorb water" is a large point.
If for some reason the ambient RH around a humi is greater than 70%, there's great potential for problems, especially if a humi is leaky.
If someone lived in Arizona or the desert or up in Siberia, it's an excellent choice because those humis require a lot of available water.

How does PG not absorb water? PG is hygroscopic and by definition will absorb excess water out of the atmosphere until equilibrium is reached. Part of what makes PG/water solution so effective is the vapor pressure lowering (of water) effect of PG. At various concentrations around 50% the vapor pressure of water is kept around 70% RH and vapor pressure of PG almost negligible at room temperature (<1%). The SAP acts as a medium to hold the solution similar to foam but one could just as simply leave a cup of PG in a humidor and achieve the same effect as beads. Is it the SAP itself that prevents absorption? As stated above, the advantage of PG/water in SAP is the amount of water that the crystals have. In environments in which the atmospheric RH is significantly less than the humidor and there is some leak, SAP has advantages over beads in providing larger reservoirs of water to release.

Originally Posted by bobarian

Kitty litter will absorb moisture(humidity) that is what they were designed to do. But they WILL NOT regulate or release moisture at a set level. Though they are both the same product chemically. Kitty litter has not been treated to regulate at a specific RH. I believe kitty litter will work well in high humidity areas, but out here in Cali. Heartfelt beads are the best way to go.

I have seen this statement frequently on the forums, that KL will not release water. Why is this so? KL is silica gel and all silica gels are hygroscopic. I will concede the point that plain gel (which is probably what KL is composed) has an M(H) value much lower than treated Heartfelt beads at 70% RH. But nevertheless KL will release as well as absorb water. The key point is finding a buffering agent with the highest M(H) value at the desired RH. Artsorb for example has a very high buffering capacity at RH > 70%. I read with great interest Shilala's experiment with KL and treated beads the amount of each needed. In essence he has derived experimentally rather than mathematically a comparison of M(H) of various substances at 70% RH. However it is still possible to use KL or any silica gel for that matter to maintain a set RH via pre-conditioning. The only question, as Shilala so eloquently answered in his experiment, is how much of each agent is needed and at what price/performance ratio.

[icehog3]

Sorry, I was a Political Science major.

Don't think I have ever seen such a deep involved introduction post.

Way over my simple head for SURE!

As info it would be nice if you headed oever to the New Inmate section and let us know a little about you. Thanks in advance.

[Old Sailor]

But MCS likes cake

[bobarian]

My reference is to pure KL out of the box/jar. Untreated KL is a pure dessicant, the point at which it will release Rh is far below that which we would find acceptable for cigar storage. In certain parts of the country KL may indeed work as an adequate absorbent. But for those of us with Rh below 80% they are a very inefficient means of regulating Rh.

[icehog3]

What Bob said.

[ade06]

What language are you all speaking?

[jledou]

I am not 100% on the chemistry but PG has a high solubility for water but does not actively absorb the moisture from the air. I believe the motive here is that when it forms into solution it acts as a common fluid i.e. it evaporates evenly. It may reach equilibrium around 70% RH for a 50/50 mixture but if it actively absorbed or there was desorption of the water as with the RH beads then PG would be left behind or become diluted changing the RH constantly. Someone hit me over the head but I am just trying to think this out logically without 100% of the chemistry.

[T.G]

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Again?

[shilala]

Originally Posted by MiLKMD

Two points from a very informative earlier thread that I want clarification:



How does PG not absorb water? PG is hygroscopic and by definition will absorb excess water out of the atmosphere until equilibrium is reached. Part of what makes PG/water solution so effective is the vapor pressure lowering (of water) effect of PG. At various concentrations around 50% the vapor pressure of water is kept around 70% RH and vapor pressure of PG almost negligible at room temperature (<1%). The SAP acts as a medium to hold the solution similar to foam but one could just as simply leave a cup of PG in a humidor and achieve the same effect as beads. Is it the SAP itself that prevents absorption? As stated above, the advantage of PG/water in SAP is the amount of water that the crystals have. In environments in which the atmospheric RH is significantly less than the humidor and there is some leak, SAP has advantages over beads in providing larger reservoirs of water to release.



I have seen this statement frequently on the forums, that KL will not release water. Why is this so? KL is silica gel and all silica gels are hygroscopic. I will concede the point that plain gel (which is probably what KL is composed) has an M(H) value much lower than treated Heartfelt beads at 70% RH. But nevertheless KL will release as well as absorb water. The key point is finding a buffering agent with the highest M(H) value at the desired RH. Artsorb for example has a very high buffering capacity at RH > 70%. I read with great interest Shilala's experiment with KL and treated beads the amount of each needed. In essence he has derived experimentally rather than mathematically a comparison of M(H) of various substances at 70% RH. However it is still possible to use KL or any silica gel for that matter to maintain a set RH via pre-conditioning. The only question, as Shilala so eloquently answered in his experiment, is how much of each agent is needed and at what price/performance ratio.

Propylene glycol is hygroscopic, but only so far as it's volumetric nature allows it to gather water, and that volume is very minimal volume per volume.
There's charts and stuff, I'm not going to blather. Well, that's not completely true. I'm going to blather, just not about PG so much.

To answer your question, when combined with water or SAP, it's hygroscopic properties are instantly defeated, because you've just created a saturated solution. Saturated meaning, well, saturated. As in "I can no longer gather water because I'm saturated, thus I, propylene gylcol, am no longer hygroscopic until I get this water out of me (at least to a point where the water has been reduced below it's capacity to hold water hygroscopically)".

Some instances for illustration...
1.) Mixed with water or SAP, PG will only release water at "a rate equal to 70% RH". That's cool, because in a saturated solution you can control the release of water, holding it at 70% (because of the vapor pressure variance you mentioned earlier).
So in this instance, you've got a great opportunity to use it where a lot of water is needed to maintain a humidor.
It's an excellent choice for very dry places, or for leaky humidors in very dry places.
If your humidor sits in an area where the ambient RH is higher than 70%, the humidor is going to assume the higher ambient over time, whether it be through frequent opening or an inherently leaky humi.
That's the "downfall". PG is hygroscopic, yes. It's not when it's saturated.
Even when it's not saturated, it's ability to soak up water is nominal at best.

2.) Used in beads...
Beads are a dessicant. They gather water. They'll gather water until they reach an equilibrium with their ambient.
If part of the beads are treated with a PG/water solution, those beads will release water until they've achieved 70%RH.
The untreated beads in the bead product will try to gather water until the cows come home.
This is tough to explain, because there's more than one thing at play.
You have dry beads available to adsorb water, and you have PG/water soaked beads trying to give up water.
This all adds up to a medium that will release water AND adsorb water, but it has little to nothing to do with the hygrospic nature of Propylene glycol, because we've already defeated that by saturating it. The only reason I even qualified with the word "little" is because some beads could exist in the mixture that only have PG in them, and there's a very insignifigant chance that would play some tiny role.
In essence, you have beads "battling it out", with a control medium that is the Propylene glycol.
That allows a nice control, by both gathering and releasing water at a particular RH.
The only way to screw this up is to overwater the beads. Once the beads are saturated, you've just turned them into the same thing as a pg/water/sap medium.
Inversely, we can keep the beads totally dry and they will simply adsorb water until they've reached equilibrium, which would be the 70% that the PG dictates. Then they'll need to be dried out to continue adsorbing water.

3.) My beads...
There's no Propylene Glycol, salts, or anything. They simply work on equilibrium. They have a much higher affinity for gathering and releasing water than do silica beads, and their construction allows for a far greater resevoir of water to be made available for use in a humidor.
In a carefully sealed humidor, they are far and away the fastest and easiest way to control humidity. They also scavenge and hold free ammonia.
They simply rely on a bunch of math and physical principles to maintain RH in a humidor.

There's one thing that no beads or SAP can defeat, and that's a leaky humidor. Whether it be because it's warped, or it's a wine cooler and the drain isn't plugged, or because it's a generic piece of chinese handiwork.
A guy (or girl) is far better off with a rubbermaid container or a ziplock bag than a leaky humi.
Problem is, most are leaky.
Good thing is, most can be fixed.

Hope this helps!!!
Scott

[Old Sailor]

Oh ya, crystal clear now!

[chippewastud79]

I cannot believe how bad my head hurts right now. I think this discussion was just way over my head.

[Wharf Rat]

Well, this will get me in lots of trouble.

I like to use beads and I know they are very effective. But, that is separate from the discussion of PG above. Sorry Shilala, I believe your explanation is flawed.

If you put a solution of water and PG in a closed volume, it has a vapor pressure in the air above it that is controlled by the solution's concentration and temperature. See the graph here:

http://www.lyondellbasell.com/techlit/techlit/2518.pdf .

If you check, a 50/50 solution has a vapor pressure at 70F that happens to correspond to the vapor pressure of water in air at 70F and 70% RH. So, it will reach this equilibrium.

I used PG on florist foam successfully for many years and still do in aging 'dors. It works fine in different conditions. However, in recent years it has been stylish to hold cigars at less than 70% RH, which PG cannot do. The value of the beads is their ability to hold an RH of 60 or 65%, which they do well.

[Barteur]

Originally Posted by Old Sailor

Oh ya, crystal clear now!

Dave you are funny.


Ok I read both thread, Twice, is it beacause I am French or I am not the only one who has problem following

You guys are out of my league with your beads. Me put distilled water on beads, me put beads in Humi, me happy Humi OK.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Wharf Rat

Well, this will get me in lots of trouble.

I like to use beads and I know they are very effective. But, that is separate from the discussion of PG above. Sorry Shilala, I believe your explanation is flawed.

If you put a solution of water and PG in a closed volume, it has a vapor pressure in the air above it that is controlled by the solution's concentration and temperature. See the graph here:

http://www.lyondellbasell.com/techlit/techlit/2518.pdf .

If you check, a 50/50 solution has a vapor pressure at 70F that happens to correspond to the vapor pressure of water in air at 70F and 70% RH. So, it will reach this equilibrium.

I used PG on florist foam successfully for many years and still do in aging 'dors. It works fine in different conditions. However, in recent years it has been stylish to hold cigars at less than 70% RH, which PG cannot do. The value of the beads is their ability to hold an RH of 60 or 65%, which they do well.

That's what I just said.
I guess if I'm flawed, we're in it together.

[icehog3]

I can hear my brain throb.

[Dux]

This Thread needs a warning sign "May cause convulsing and Traumatic stress"

[Adriftpanda]

Originally Posted by icehog3

I can hear my brain throb.

I tried reading this and I have no clue to what languages you guys are speaking.

[md4958]

im going to bed now.

[Skywalker]

Is my ear bleeding???