Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?

[E.J.]

I don’t know, maybe I’m the one missing something here… That is possible....

I just keep seeing comparisons, but IMO there isn’t anything to compare this to. This is unchartered territory for anything we have seen in our lifetime. It is almost unbelievable, like a bad Lifetime Movie meets SportsCenter nuclear bomb of bad television….. Trying to compare some isolated legal problems of student athletes or coaches to the YEARS AND YEARS of serial sexual abuse of children and cover-up of it at PSU is not apples to oranges, it is a single rollerblade boot without wheels and the Space Shuttle….

[King James]

I don't think you are missing anything, just are of a different opinion. Boiled down to the basics, I think it should be left up to the courts and that the NCAA should not get involved for this.

I think everyone agrees that the hammer should be dropped on Penn State, just debate over which hammer.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by E.J.

Can you show me where the NCAA has dealt with any of the above for just half the amount of time that we are talking about with PSU and the cover-up related to that?

I wasn't aware of a minimum amount of infractions an NCAA institution had to incure before action was taken. In short, if rules were violated at Penn State, they were violated at other universities as well and the NCAA, for reasons unbeknownst to me, failed to take action.

Originally Posted by E.J.

You can't say, oh the NCAA didn't do anything when Oregon had a player get a felony bla..bla..bla..., then they had a kid get a DUI, then a theft....and have it compare to what happened at PSU. We are talking about the raping of kids for years and years and years and the school covering that up to save their good name.... That isn't a bunch of single incidents over a period of time, which generally are addressed by the school with suspensions anyway... How the difference doesn't compute with you is beyond me.....

And how you can trivialize the other illegal activities (some of which were connected, some of which were covered up by their respective athletic departments) is equally beyond me.

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by King James

I don't think you are missing anything, just are of a different opinion. Boiled down to the basics, I think it should be left up to the courts and that the NCAA should not get involved for this.

I think everyone agrees that the hammer should be dropped on Penn State, just debate over which hammer.

Fair enough, so with that, would you agree that an argument saying that because "the NCAA has no history of punishing for a domestic violence, DUI, assault or theft ect. So the NCAA getting involved with this, which I feel is a legal issue, should not happen either?" to debate their side is sooooooo far removed from anything we have ever seen, that comparison just doesn't compute?

Let's remember that usually(always?) when a student athlete or coach has a legal issue, they are usually punished by the school as well as the legal system. It isn't like they just deal with the court process and then are good as gold.

[King James]

Originally Posted by E.J.

Fair enough, so with that, would you agree that an argument saying that because "the NCAA has no history of punishing for a domestic violence, DUI, assault or theft ect. So the NCAA getting involved with this, which I feel is a legal issue, should not happen either?" to debate their side is sooooooo far removed from anything we have ever seen, that comparison just doesn't compute?

I would agree with the NCAA getting involved when there is a violation of an NCAA rule, which, to my knowledge, does not include items like those you listed. What happened at Penn State is so heinous that it seems easy to overlook the similarities between what Sandusky did, and a player or coach raping or assaulting someone in an isolated incident. But I think you need to look at TYPE of act and not DEGREE of act.

Originally Posted by E.J.

Let's remember that usually(always?) when a student athlete or coach has a legal issue, they are usually punished by the school as well as the legal system. It isn't like they just deal with the court process and then are good as gold.

I think the difference here is that when the student athletes are punished but the university for a legal issue, its because those athletes sign code of conduct agreements that explicitly discuss what will happen if an athlete faces legal issues.

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by Stephen

I wasn't aware of a minimum amount of infractions an NCAA institution had to incure before action was taken. In short, if rules were violated at Penn State, they were violated at other universities as well and the NCAA, for reasons unbeknownst to me, failed to take action.

And how you can trivialize the other illegal activities (some of which were connected, some of which were covered up by their respective athletic departments) is equally beyond me.

I don't have to "trivialize" to know how to address things on different levels, related to what I am looking at. You know, you don't deal with a parking ticket, like you do with a DUI, which is looked at different than a DUI with injury, which is looked at differently than a 5th DUI conviction because of the history bla..bla..bla.... Apparently you cannot(don't want to?) differentiate on those levels, which is my point. That is okay, at least I know where you are with it.....

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by King James

I would agree with the NCAA getting involved when there is a violation of an NCAA rule, which, to my knowledge, does not include items like those you listed. What happened at Penn State is so heinous that it seems easy to overlook the similarities between what Sandusky did, and a player or coach raping or assaulting someone in an isolated incident. But I think you need to look at TYPE of act and not DEGREE of act.



I think the difference here is that when the student athletes are punished but the university for a legal issue, its because those athletes sign code of conduct agreements that explicitly discuss what will happen if an athlete faces legal issues.

I am not following your type of act vs degree of act? So you agree we have never seen anything like this in our history and thus, it will be treated differently or no?


Your second statement was just a response to my comments on kids being punished for their crimes X 2. I was not so much stating that if the school didn't do it, the NCAA would, but that it is not an either/or when talking about athletes/athletic programs in my mind. Just because they are punished by the law, does not mean that further sanctions are not in order. I actually think the school will punish itself in this situation, which may very well satisfy the NCAA.

[King James]

Originally Posted by E.J.

I am not following your type of act vs degree of act? So you agree we have never seen anything like this in our history and thus, it will be treated differently or no?

Your second statement was just a response to my comments on kids being punished for their crimes X 2. I was not so much stating that if the school didn't do it, the NCAA would, but that it is not an either/or when talking about athletes/athletic programs in my mind. Just because they are punished by the law, does not mean that further sanctions are not in order. I actually think the school will punish itself in this situation, which may very well satisfy the NCAA.

I agree that we have never seen anything like this in our history, and I think that regardless of the extent of the acts, that it isn't the place of the NCAA to enforce sanctions when no NCAA rules were broken.

Correct, it doesn't have to be either/or. But in the example of a student athlete, they sign a specific code of conduct that says they will be punished by the school if they break the law (and then they are also likely punished by the law for breaking the law)

In this case, there does not appear to be an NCAA violation for the NCAA to also punish Penn State on top of what punishment they will face in civil court.

[E.J.]

Fair enough.

[357]

Jim, my concern is that the school will fall through the cracks. The admins who orchestrated the coverup will probably face criminal and/or civil action. I haven't heard that PSU is facing a civil suit at this time. Perhaps they are. Even if they are though, they will continue to benefit from these crimes via football revenue if the NCAA doesn't sanction them severly i.e. give them the death penalty. The civil court doesn't have the ability to kill the football program for and period of time, only the NCAA does.

I highly doubt the civil court will punish them anywhere as sever as the death penalty would. According to this site: http://blogs.mcall.com/nittany_lines...uch-money.html Penn State turned a $50.4 million profit in 2010, on $70.2 million in revenue. I can't see a civil court awarding anything equivalent to a 2-4 year ban on football (approximately $280 million of revenue or $200 million profit).

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by E.J.

I don't have to "trivialize" to know how to address things on different levels, related to what I am looking at. You know, you don't deal with a parking ticket, like you do with a DUI, which is looked at different than a DUI with injury, which is looked at differently than a 5th DUI conviction because of the history bla..bla..bla.... Apparently you cannot(don't want to?) differentiate on those levels, which is my point. That is okay, at least I know where you are with it.....

Yes, and each infraction carries a varying degree of punishment, depending on the crime, of which the NCAA has NEVER involved themselves with.

Originally Posted by E.J.

I don't have a strong opinion either way, though for those saying "no" related to the NCAA overstepping their bounds, what about "lack of institutional control"? To me, this seems to fit that bill perfectly.....

Would you say that Colordao circa 1997-2004 (bit hazy on the timeline; sorry) fits your bill of, "lack of institutional control"?

[King James]

Originally Posted by 357

Jim, my concern is that the school will fall through the cracks. The admins who orchestrated the coverup will probably face criminal and/or civil action. I haven't heard that PSU is facing a civil suit at this time. Perhaps they are. Even if they are though, they will continue to benefit from these crimes via football revenue if the NCAA doesn't sanction them severly i.e. give them the death penalty. The civil court doesn't have the ability to kill the football program for and period of time, only the NCAA does.

I highly doubt the civil court will punish them anywhere as sever as the death penalty would. According to this site: http://blogs.mcall.com/nittany_lines...uch-money.html Penn State turned a $50.4 million profit in 2010, on $70.2 million in revenue. I can't see a civil court awarding anything equivalent to a 2-4 year ban on football (approximately $280 million of revenue or $200 million profit).

I'm sure news about the civil case will come out in not too long. Right now they are probably trying to settle out of court. Regardless, the victims will get paid. They may not face the same losses as the death penalty (although I can easily see it being over $100 million)

No matter what the penalties, nothing can undo what happened. I am just of the opinion that the death penalty for the program punishes the wrong people.

[AD720]

Originally Posted by 357

Jim, my concern is that the school will fall through the cracks. The admins who orchestrated the coverup will probably face criminal and/or civil action. I haven't heard that PSU is facing a civil suit at this time. Perhaps they are. Even if they are though, they will continue to benefit from these crimes via football revenue if the NCAA doesn't sanction them severly i.e. give them the death penalty. The civil court doesn't have the ability to kill the football program for and period of time, only the NCAA does.

I highly doubt the civil court will punish them anywhere as sever as the death penalty would. According to this site: http://blogs.mcall.com/nittany_lines...uch-money.html Penn State turned a $50.4 million profit in 2010, on $70.2 million in revenue. I can't see a civil court awarding anything equivalent to a 2-4 year ban on football (approximately $280 million of revenue or $200 million profit).

Some of the judgments paid by the catholic church in the last 10 years may contradict that. Almost three quarters of a billion (720 million dollars) by the archdiocese of Los Angeles alone...

Edit - not trying to get religious, fyi. Just a comparison based on similar crimes.

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Would you say that Colordao circa 1997-2004 (bit hazy on the timeline; sorry) fits your bill of, "lack of institutional control"?

Again, your comparisons that are shallow at best.... Unless, there was a serial rapist/murderer what have you, that was on staff at that time and the head coach(was it McCartney then?) and administration was covering up for him, letting him continue unabated, on staff and then off....but you know, letting him use the showers and whatnot...

Though, please do tell what you think was happening during those years that has relevance here....what was close....in the same ballpark as what we are talking about.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by E.J.

Again, your comparisons that are shallow at best.... Unless, there was a serial rapist/murderer what have you, that was on staff at that time and the head coach(was it McCartney then?) and administration was covering up for him, letting him continue unabated, on staff and then off....but you know, letting him use the showers and whatnot...

Though, please do tell what you think was happening during those years that has relevance here....what was close....in the same ballpark as what we are talking about.

A multitude of rapes/sexual assaults by multiple football players, a coverup (or the very least a, "glossing over") by the coaching staff and administration, and, if I remember correctly, a sympathetic DA's office. Again, this is all from memory, but it was a fairly big deal at the time.

In any case, my overall point is that if it's a question of ethical conduct, why hasn't the NCAA gotten involved in incidents too numerous to mention? If it's, "lack of institutional control", why didn't the NCAA investigate the likes of Colorado or Nebraska? Or am I to believe that something the magnitude that transpired at Penn State needs to occur before institutional control is lost?

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by Stephen

A multitude of rapes/sexual assaults by multiple football players, a coverup (or the very least a, "glossing over") by the coaching staff and administration, and, if I remember correctly, a sympathetic DA's office. Again, this is all from memory, but it was a fairly big deal at the time.

In any case, my overall point is that if it's a question of ethical conduct, why hasn't the NCAA gotten involved in incidents too numerous to mention? If it's, "lack of institutional control", why didn't the NCAA investigate the likes of Colorado or Nebraska? Or am I to believe that something the magnitude that transpired at Penn State needs to occur before institutional control is lost?

BINGO!!!!!

Yes, that is the point EXACTLY! You got it....I feel like if this was a race, we could all give you a hug right now.

I am not sure about your memory of the facts at Colorado, I don't recall numerous rapes(or even some felony after felony wagon train of which the NCAA had never seen before) that were covered up, hidden from the public ect. My assumption is that is how the public found out, arrests ect. But I could be wrong, doesn't matter....AGAIN...it wasn't in the ballpark of what we are talking. The reason you haven't seen an uproar of the general public, many of which are not even sports fans, asking for the NCAA to do something in this case and not others.....THE MAGNITUDE. Which is why the NCAA might do something......THE MAGNITUDE.

It isn't a bunch of idiot athletes making a mistake here, committing a felony there & then a coach giving a 1-2 game suspension and then saying "He's a kid, let's give him another chance" - translation - "I can win games with this kid or he'd already be gone." It is decades of child molestation and cover up. Not only glossing over wrong doing, give a second chance....but covering up and letting this man continue to rape kids on their watch... HOW PHUCKING SICK IS THAT. Yes, some 18-22 year old kids making mistakes and being disciplined, then given a second(3,4,5th) chance is one thing.... Harboring a child rapist....well, I think you get the point.

[smitty81]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Dude, seriously?
Christan Peter
Lawrence Phillips

So your saying that the NCAA should of handed out the death penalty to NU because of one player that got caught with drugs or a DUI?

Your comparing apples to oranges here.

The one student was punished good enough in the eyes of the NCAA so they didn't feel a need to step in.

PSU....................YEARS and YEARS of cover ups and child rape.

Not exactly comparing the same kind of crimes. Hard to justify the same kind of punishment.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by E.J.

BINGO!!!!!

Yes, that is the point EXACTLY! You got it....I feel like if this was a race, we could all give you a hug right now.

I am not sure about your memory of the facts at Colorado, I don't recall numerous rapes(or even some felony after felony wagon train of which the NCAA had never seen before) that were covered up, hidden from the public ect. My assumption is that is how the public found out, arrests ect. But I could be wrong, doesn't matter....AGAIN...it wasn't in the ballpark of what we are talking. The reason you haven't seen an uproar of the general public, many of which are not even sports fans, asking for the NCAA to do something in this case and not others.....THE MAGNITUDE. Which is why the NCAA might do something......THE MAGNITUDE.

No, we live in the internet age. If what happened at Colorado came to light in the manner it did at Penn State, you bet your ass people would be up in arms. And frankly, I'm not about to say that one man comitting heinous acts being covered up by a few is worse than several men comitting heinous acts being covered up by a few, but that's just me.

Originally Posted by E.J.

It isn't a bunch of idiot athletes making a mistake here, committing a felony there & then a coach giving a 1-2 game suspension and then saying "He's a kid, let's give him another chance" - translation - "I can win games with this kid or he'd already be gone." It is decades of child molestation and cover up. Not only glossing over wrong doing, give a second chance....but covering up and letting this man continue to rape kids on their watch... HOW PHUCKING SICK IS THAT. Yes, some 18-22 year old kids making mistakes and being disciplined, then given a second(3,4,5th) chance is one thing.... Harboring a child rapist....well, I think you get the point.

Seriously, how crass. So MULTIPLE college athletes who rape women (including their own freaking teammate) simply, "make a mistake.." I'm sure the ten women (at least; only ten came forward) don't share your sentiment.

So done with this conversation.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by smitty81

So your saying that the NCAA should of handed out the death penalty to NU because of one player that got caught with drugs or a DUI?

Your comparing apples to oranges here.

The one student was punished good enough in the eyes of the NCAA so they didn't feel a need to step in.

PSU....................YEARS and YEARS of cover ups and child rape.

Not exactly comparing the same kind of crimes. Hard to justify the same kind of punishment.

Uh, Christian Peter raped two women while at Nebraska. Kathy Redmond reported it, nothing came of it. Nebraska tried to cover it up. She brought a civil suit against the University and won. That's not even mentioning all the other crap and arrests while there. Missed exactly zero games due to these infractions (and oh yeah, was a team captain in 1995).

Lawrence Phillips, well, you should know that story.

But here's an article about the team around that time.

And no, I'm not comparing what happened here to what happened at Penn State. I'm stating that it could be argued that, "institutional control" (as has been interpreted in this thread by a few) has been lost at other campuses at other points in time and the NCAA chose not to intervene.

[smitty81]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Uh, Christian Peter raped two women while at Nebraska. Kathy Redmond reported it, nothing came of it. Nebraska tried to cover it up. She brought a civil suit against the University and won. That's not even mentioning all the other crap and arrests while there. Missed exactly zero games due to these infractions (and oh yeah, was a team captain in 1995).

Lawrence Phillips, well, you should know that story.

But here's an article about the team around that time.

And no, I'm not comparing what happened here to what happened at Penn State. I'm stating that it could be argued that, "institutional control" (as has been interpreted in this thread by a few) has been lost at other campuses at other points in time and the NCAA chose not to intervene.

Maybe so, but when one of the main guys that should be controlling things dosen't come forward for YEARS, you have a problem. Don't think for a second the NCAA didn't look into NU's problems also. The NCAA had nothing to gain by letting it slip.