The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread: - Page 3

JohnnyFlake · 02-04-2009, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

You need to learn how to "read" Parker reviews and then apply that to your own taste preferences. For example, that cedar note SOARING from the glass indicates large amount of oak present. If you like lots of oak, great, this wine is for you. If not, the point score in this case is meaningless. And I would also question "sweet aromas" note and licorice, means a noticeable amount of residual sugar in wine; if you like your wine dry, then this may not be a wine for you.

Taste is very subjective, therefore, any source of reviews, for wine, whiskey, coffee, cigars and so on, should be taken with a grain of salt. That is, of course, until you have had the chance to make your own, individual tasting, of whatever the subject matter is!

Comparing your individual tasting notes, with those of the more popular aficionados, is how one learns to follow the reviews of those, that closely match your own taste.

Your description of what Parker's Reviews mean to you are subjective, with respect to you. They are your opinions and others may disagree. That is neither good or bad, however, it is a perfect example of what I just stated above!

TheRiddick · 02-04-2009, 09:05 PM

Hmmm... I did not compare MY own tasting notes to Parker's, I simply explained what Parker's mean. Ask any serious wine geek and they will tell you same thing I did.

For example, any time you see Parker say ""leather", you are absolutely sure he is talking brett (although he'll never say brett since he can't tell it even if it hit on the head, he actually loves the taste by his own admission), yet for most people brett is a serious flaw in wine and a real turn off (ever smelled a cow/horse barn gone bad?). He and I had a pretty heated public discussion on the subject, all the winemakers were pretty appalled by his stance and lack of any undestanding of the subject. Same with filtration and such, notice how he touts most of the wines he covers as "unfined and un filtered" while most of them actually are. He is clueless on many subjects and I am not sure why people follow his advice (he was chased out of Burgundy a while back for his BS and stupidity and I wish same would happen in other regions, its time for him to retire).

Not that other wine reviewers are much better, no one is consistant and many guess where they shouldn't.

Main reason I am saying trust YOUR OWN PALATE, same as with cigars. True enough, though, you do need to find similar palates to follow, but that takes time and effort.

Try that Steltzner Claret I pointed out above, see what I mean.

rizzle · 02-05-2009, 07:41 AM

Wine smack!!

mosesbotbol · 02-05-2009, 11:34 AM

Brett can be a turnoff descriptor as you don't know how much there's going to be before you try it. Rhones and Brett can go hand in hand. I do think it does make wine complex, but one has to be very careful. I thought usually in wine, Brett is by accident or unavoidable? Things like TCA or VA are never really welcome.

TheRiddick · 02-05-2009, 12:06 PM

ALL wines have VA, by default. But some have more and some less, the more a wine has the more it is noticeable (think vinegary smells and taste). Once you start apprcoaching the 0.9% mark it becomes noticeable. TCA is just bad and in most cases it is bad corks (main reason alternative closures are gaining speed and market share). Brett is just bad. As much as I understand that a small amount of brett can sometimes enhance a wine and add to the complexity, you cannot control brett in any way.

The question and challenge I posed to Parker was to do a blind taste test, he could bring anyone he wants to along for the taste. I would place 5 (or whatever number he wanted) different wines in front of them, labels removed of course, and ALL they have to do is tell me what varietal each wine was made from. Simple test, right, for the supposed world's greatest palate?

As you can imagine, after all the chest beating Parker did up to that point, he disappeared.

Brett is just bad and one of the main faults in wine, according to any winemaking course or book. Too bad Parker put South Rhone on the map back in the 80s with all of his recommendations of seriously bretty wines and convinced wine drinkers that is what they are supposed to appreciate. Come to think of it, his early Burgundy finds and recommendations were all bretty as hell as well. Both regions are only now beginning to clean up their cellars (not all of them, of course), but its an expensive process and very costly.

VA is a hit an miss thing. Most consumers actually love the elevated VA levels, it makes the wine more "perfumy" on the nose and can enhance the tasting experience, but up to a point. Actually, if you see descriptors in a tasting note say "lifted nose" or something similar to that (soaring, elevated, jumping out of the glass as in the Martini note above) that is a clear indication of high VA levels in wine and this applies not only to Parker's notes but to others' as well.

Do your own test. Take a bottle, pour off some of the wine into glass A. Then add a very small amount of vinegar (if you have a small pippette at home, that helps) into the remaining wine in the bottle, shake the bottle gently and then pour some off into glass B. Smell them side by side. Keep adding vinegar to the bottle to see how much the wine changes as more vinegar is added.

mosesbotbol · 02-05-2009, 12:32 PM

You say Brett is a fault, they call it Terrior

TheRiddick · 02-05-2009, 03:20 PM

You're right! That's what Parker said to me, according to him, "... wines with brett show the sense of place and that the winemaker cares, and they have SOUL...". Not sure what the winemaker cares for, though, Parker never made it clear. Most likely the pocketbook due to Parker's high scores.

As for his terroir BS (can't call it anything else), that was what prompted me to challenge him to a blind tasting, I didn't even ask him to name where the bretty bottle came from, simply for him to name the varietal it was made of. As I summed it up to him, The only thing brett shows is brett and nothing else, brett is brett no matter what continent or vineyard it came from and it ALWAYS has that same smell and taste with no regard to sense of place. Anyone can do this experiment and see where his argument falls flat on its face.

Don't get me wrong, there are more and more brett afflicted wines coming out of CA these days and I am sure its the winemakers selling out to get higher scores from Parker. 2 years ago at ZAP (annual event in SF) I was appalled at how many bretty wines were poured to the ecstatic populace with the point scores prominently displayed so that people can "drinks points".

A few monts ago my tasting group did a tasting of Syrah, double blind (we never display labels no matter what the theme is) and came across a particular bottle. While our table of 6 people were appalled at the brett in this bottle and all scored the wine very low becuase of it, the other table of 6 scored if very highly. The argument they gave us, and this from a winemaker at that table (half the group is either making wine or is cellar rats for a number of prominent CA labels): You guys just don't get this particular FRENCH bottle. I know what this wine and it is not brett, this is terroir and will blow off with age.

Low and behold, we unveiled this bottle after collecting all the scores. Yep, a highly rated and respected CA producer. Not French, as stipulated, no "terroir". Brett. Hilarious...

Just look at Wine Spectator review. While Laube is scoring any brett afflicted wine low (although he misses some here and there), Steinman NEVER reports on OR Pinots having brett issues and trust me, most of them do. We did a tasting of a good number of highly rated and reviewed OR Pinots recently and well, roughly 70% had serious issues with brett. But hey, maybe that's why so many out there say that OR Pinot most closely resembles Burgundy :-)) I can agree with that. But like I said, to Steinman there is no brett it seems, no wonder all the recent scores he gave to OR Pinot are in mid 90s. Buyer beware.

mosesbotbol · 02-05-2009, 04:46 PM

Would a CdP be a classic example of the region without a hint of Brett?

TheRiddick · 02-05-2009, 05:46 PM

No. Most famous is what, Pegau? Bretty as hell.

That's the wine that started my "discussion" with Parker in the first place. We had at least 3 lab tested bottles come back with positive results. Parker then claimed that HIS bottle, which he just popped, out of his own cellar as our online discussion was taking place, had NO BRETT, "whistle clean" as he called it. Unfortunately for him, the owner and winemaker of Pegau, Laurence, chimed in to state that ALL of their wines HAVE BRETT. That was a stunner, for sure. Not in terms of knowing about brett in their wines (anyone visiting the place will tell you how disgustingly unclean it is), but that Parker put his palate on the line and was contradicted by the owner of the winery.

Parker consistently scores Pegau high, but personally I can't believe people pay such a high price for a chemical experiment gone bad and then claim the wine is great only because Parker said so.

But I can also point you at a number of CdPs that are clean and do show their fruit well. Too bad they are not scored as highly as Pegau, but then again, that's a good thing in my book and their prices are not bid up by point chasers.

Big problem with brett is that even if you happen to pop a cork on a bottle that has small amounts of it, you really need to finish that bottle quickly or face brett bloom quickly with air contact.

The new generation of French vignerons is increasingly coming to study at UC Davis and other schools outside of France, many come to CA to work as cellar rats and hands as well and this is quickly changing what is going on in France in terms of cleanliness at the winery.

Caymus · 02-08-2009, 07:45 AM

OK, I'll take the risk....what is "Brett" ??

TheRiddick · 02-08-2009, 04:28 PM

Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brettanomyces

In general terms, its a spoilage bacteria (although actually a yeast). Like I said somewhere above, if you've ever been to a horse stable you know what it smells like. And once it blooms in a bottle, it takes over all other flavors leaving only the flavor of brett to "enjoy".

rizzle · 02-09-2009, 10:19 AM

Somebody earlier already mentioned this but I have decided to start buying this by the case. At ~$9 a bottle before the case discount I just don't see how you can go wrong. I'm really enjoying drinking this.

TheRiddick · 02-09-2009, 02:31 PM

I have yet to have a "bad" bottle of anything Bogle. Solid lineup, year in and year out. That's a great price for the wine, it is more expensive here in CA. But I also found a good number of wines selling for less in FL than I see them here, can't figure this one out.

MiamiE · 02-09-2009, 02:47 PM

Anything J. Lohr.

rizzle · 02-09-2009, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

I have yet to have a "bad" bottle of anything Bogle. Solid lineup, year in and year out. That's a great price for the wine, it is more expensive here in CA. But I also found a good number of wines selling for less in FL than I see them here, can't figure this one out.

Somehow that just doesn't quite make sense does it?

mosesbotbol · 02-11-2009, 06:33 AM

For under $20, Joseph Drouhin has several to choose from that are pretty good for the money. The Symington family also have a few that I consider steals for the money.

TheRiddick · 02-11-2009, 11:46 AM

Anyone into white wine, try a bottle of Bonny Doon Pacific Reisling, superb match for spicy food IMO. The wine usually sells for roughly $11-12 here in CA, but I've seen it at $9 in FL shops. Goes great with sushi as well.

JohnnyFlake · 02-11-2009, 02:42 PM

Another one, brought to my attention by relatives in Illinois. I'll be looking for this to try out this weekend.

Simonassi Malbec Mendoza 2007

Sam's Wine & Liquor Score: 90 - Impressive aromas of blackberry and plums lead the way. Pours a clear, deep purplish red. Big and rich with a nice silky tannic finish. This jammy yet fresh, and very quaffable. Perfect for many cuisines, including Mexican, Spanish, Indian and Italian.

$12.99 per bottle!

02-13-2009, 10:46 AM

Brett! That's what causes that flavor. I hate it. I must have a low threshold for it. It makes wines taste dirty to me. If there are other great qualities to the wine I can overlook it, but it is only a negative, IMHO.

I'm going to Paso Robles for the weekend and I'll be picking up some cases of wine from EOS vineyards called Lost Angel, thier "Mischievous" and Petite Syrah. I am in their club so they are $12 a bottle. I'll be visiting a lot of other wineries while I'm there.

PeteSB75 · 02-13-2009, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rizzle

Somebody earlier already mentioned this but I have decided to start buying this by the case. At ~$9 a bottle before the case discount I just don't see how you can go wrong. I'm really enjoying drinking this.

Had a bottle of this last weekend. Spectacular. The guy at one of my local shops recommended another Petite Syrah and it was horrible. I threw it out. Popped this one after and it was like a breath of fresh air.

Also had a bottle of Bogle's Phantom on Wednesday. Awesome blend of Petite Syrah, Zinfandel and just a touch of Mourvedre. Delicious, and a steal at about $17. I think Bogle had just joined the top of my CA winery list these days, right along side Michael David. Excellent wines at very good prices.

02-04-2009, 09:05 PM	#42
TheRiddick Non-believer Join Date: Jan 2009 First Name: Greg Location: Las Vegas Posts: 943 Trading: (7)	Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread: Hmmm... I did not compare MY own tasting notes to Parker's, I simply explained what Parker's mean. Ask any serious wine geek and they will tell you same thing I did. For example, any time you see Parker say ""leather", you are absolutely sure he is talking brett (although he'll never say brett since he can't tell it even if it hit on the head, he actually loves the taste by his own admission), yet for most people brett is a serious flaw in wine and a real turn off (ever smelled a cow/horse barn gone bad?). He and I had a pretty heated public discussion on the subject, all the winemakers were pretty appalled by his stance and lack of any undestanding of the subject. Same with filtration and such, notice how he touts most of the wines he covers as "unfined and un filtered" while most of them actually are. He is clueless on many subjects and I am not sure why people follow his advice (he was chased out of Burgundy a while back for his BS and stupidity and I wish same would happen in other regions, its time for him to retire). Not that other wine reviewers are much better, no one is consistant and many guess where they shouldn't. Main reason I am saying trust YOUR OWN PALATE, same as with cigars. True enough, though, you do need to find similar palates to follow, but that takes time and effort. Try that Steltzner Claret I pointed out above, see what I mean.

02-05-2009, 07:41 AM	#43
rizzle Order Restored Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: st pete, fl Posts: 2,679 Trading: (23)	Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread: Wine smack!!

02-05-2009, 11:34 AM	#44
mosesbotbol That's a Corgi Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Moses Location: Boston Posts: 6,170 Trading: (6)	Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread: Brett can be a turnoff descriptor as you don't know how much there's going to be before you try it. Rhones and Brett can go hand in hand. I do think it does make wine complex, but one has to be very careful. I thought usually in wine, Brett is by accident or unavoidable? Things like TCA or VA are never really welcome. __________________ Port Wine & Claret \| British Cars \| Welsh Corgi's

02-05-2009, 12:06 PM	#45
TheRiddick Non-believer Join Date: Jan 2009 First Name: Greg Location: Las Vegas Posts: 943 Trading: (7)	Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread: ALL wines have VA, by default. But some have more and some less, the more a wine has the more it is noticeable (think vinegary smells and taste). Once you start apprcoaching the 0.9% mark it becomes noticeable. TCA is just bad and in most cases it is bad corks (main reason alternative closures are gaining speed and market share). Brett is just bad. As much as I understand that a small amount of brett can sometimes enhance a wine and add to the complexity, you cannot control brett in any way. The question and challenge I posed to Parker was to do a blind taste test, he could bring anyone he wants to along for the taste. I would place 5 (or whatever number he wanted) different wines in front of them, labels removed of course, and ALL they have to do is tell me what varietal each wine was made from. Simple test, right, for the supposed world's greatest palate? As you can imagine, after all the chest beating Parker did up to that point, he disappeared. Brett is just bad and one of the main faults in wine, according to any winemaking course or book. Too bad Parker put South Rhone on the map back in the 80s with all of his recommendations of seriously bretty wines and convinced wine drinkers that is what they are supposed to appreciate. Come to think of it, his early Burgundy finds and recommendations were all bretty as hell as well. Both regions are only now beginning to clean up their cellars (not all of them, of course), but its an expensive process and very costly. VA is a hit an miss thing. Most consumers actually love the elevated VA levels, it makes the wine more "perfumy" on the nose and can enhance the tasting experience, but up to a point. Actually, if you see descriptors in a tasting note say "lifted nose" or something similar to that (soaring, elevated, jumping out of the glass as in the Martini note above) that is a clear indication of high VA levels in wine and this applies not only to Parker's notes but to others' as well. Do your own test. Take a bottle, pour off some of the wine into glass A. Then add a very small amount of vinegar (if you have a small pippette at home, that helps) into the remaining wine in the bottle, shake the bottle gently and then pour some off into glass B. Smell them side by side. Keep adding vinegar to the bottle to see how much the wine changes as more vinegar is added.

02-05-2009, 12:32 PM	#46
mosesbotbol That's a Corgi Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Moses Location: Boston Posts: 6,170 Trading: (6)	Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread: You say Brett is a fault, they call it Terrior __________________ Port Wine & Claret \| British Cars \| Welsh Corgi's

02-05-2009, 03:20 PM	#47
TheRiddick Non-believer Join Date: Jan 2009 First Name: Greg Location: Las Vegas Posts: 943 Trading: (7)	Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread: You're right! That's what Parker said to me, according to him, "... wines with brett show the sense of place and that the winemaker cares, and they have SOUL...". Not sure what the winemaker cares for, though, Parker never made it clear. Most likely the pocketbook due to Parker's high scores. As for his terroir BS (can't call it anything else), that was what prompted me to challenge him to a blind tasting, I didn't even ask him to name where the bretty bottle came from, simply for him to name the varietal it was made of. As I summed it up to him, The only thing brett shows is brett and nothing else, brett is brett no matter what continent or vineyard it came from and it ALWAYS has that same smell and taste with no regard to sense of place. Anyone can do this experiment and see where his argument falls flat on its face. Don't get me wrong, there are more and more brett afflicted wines coming out of CA these days and I am sure its the winemakers selling out to get higher scores from Parker. 2 years ago at ZAP (annual event in SF) I was appalled at how many bretty wines were poured to the ecstatic populace with the point scores prominently displayed so that people can "drinks points". A few monts ago my tasting group did a tasting of Syrah, double blind (we never display labels no matter what the theme is) and came across a particular bottle. While our table of 6 people were appalled at the brett in this bottle and all scored the wine very low becuase of it, the other table of 6 scored if very highly. The argument they gave us, and this from a winemaker at that table (half the group is either making wine or is cellar rats for a number of prominent CA labels): You guys just don't get this particular FRENCH bottle. I know what this wine and it is not brett, this is terroir and will blow off with age. Low and behold, we unveiled this bottle after collecting all the scores. Yep, a highly rated and respected CA producer. Not French, as stipulated, no "terroir". Brett. Hilarious... Just look at Wine Spectator review. While Laube is scoring any brett afflicted wine low (although he misses some here and there), Steinman NEVER reports on OR Pinots having brett issues and trust me, most of them do. We did a tasting of a good number of highly rated and reviewed OR Pinots recently and well, roughly 70% had serious issues with brett. But hey, maybe that's why so many out there say that OR Pinot most closely resembles Burgundy :-)) I can agree with that. But like I said, to Steinman there is no brett it seems, no wonder all the recent scores he gave to OR Pinot are in mid 90s. Buyer beware.

02-05-2009, 04:46 PM	#48
mosesbotbol That's a Corgi Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Moses Location: Boston Posts: 6,170 Trading: (6)	Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread: Would a CdP be a classic example of the region without a hint of Brett? __________________ Port Wine & Claret \| British Cars \| Welsh Corgi's

02-05-2009, 05:46 PM	#49
TheRiddick Non-believer Join Date: Jan 2009 First Name: Greg Location: Las Vegas Posts: 943 Trading: (7)	Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread: No. Most famous is what, Pegau? Bretty as hell. That's the wine that started my "discussion" with Parker in the first place. We had at least 3 lab tested bottles come back with positive results. Parker then claimed that HIS bottle, which he just popped, out of his own cellar as our online discussion was taking place, had NO BRETT, "whistle clean" as he called it. Unfortunately for him, the owner and winemaker of Pegau, Laurence, chimed in to state that ALL of their wines HAVE BRETT. That was a stunner, for sure. Not in terms of knowing about brett in their wines (anyone visiting the place will tell you how disgustingly unclean it is), but that Parker put his palate on the line and was contradicted by the owner of the winery. Parker consistently scores Pegau high, but personally I can't believe people pay such a high price for a chemical experiment gone bad and then claim the wine is great only because Parker said so. But I can also point you at a number of CdPs that are clean and do show their fruit well. Too bad they are not scored as highly as Pegau, but then again, that's a good thing in my book and their prices are not bid up by point chasers. Big problem with brett is that even if you happen to pop a cork on a bottle that has small amounts of it, you really need to finish that bottle quickly or face brett bloom quickly with air contact. The new generation of French vignerons is increasingly coming to study at UC Davis and other schools outside of France, many come to CA to work as cellar rats and hands as well and this is quickly changing what is going on in France in terms of cleanliness at the winery.

02-08-2009, 07:45 AM	#50
Caymus Still Watching My Back Join Date: Jan 2009 First Name: Ken Location: Columbus GA Posts: 114 Trading: (0)	Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread: OK, I'll take the risk....what is "Brett" ??

02-08-2009, 04:28 PM	#51
TheRiddick Non-believer Join Date: Jan 2009 First Name: Greg Location: Las Vegas Posts: 943 Trading: (7)	Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread: Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brettanomyces In general terms, its a spoilage bacteria (although actually a yeast). Like I said somewhere above, if you've ever been to a horse stable you know what it smells like. And once it blooms in a bottle, it takes over all other flavors leaving only the flavor of brett to "enjoy".

02-09-2009, 10:19 AM	#52
rizzle Order Restored Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: st pete, fl Posts: 2,679 Trading: (23)	Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread: Somebody earlier already mentioned this but I have decided to start buying this by the case. At ~$9 a bottle before the case discount I just don't see how you can go wrong. I'm really enjoying drinking this.

02-09-2009, 02:31 PM	#53
TheRiddick Non-believer Join Date: Jan 2009 First Name: Greg Location: Las Vegas Posts: 943 Trading: (7)	Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread: I have yet to have a "bad" bottle of anything Bogle. Solid lineup, year in and year out. That's a great price for the wine, it is more expensive here in CA. But I also found a good number of wines selling for less in FL than I see them here, can't figure this one out.

02-09-2009, 02:47 PM	#54
MiamiE I'm nuts for the place Join Date: Feb 2009 First Name: Erick Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,892 Trading: (38)	Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread: Anything J. Lohr.

02-11-2009, 06:33 AM	#56
mosesbotbol That's a Corgi Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Moses Location: Boston Posts: 6,170 Trading: (6)	Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread: For under $20, Joseph Drouhin has several to choose from that are pretty good for the money. The Symington family also have a few that I consider steals for the money. __________________ Port Wine & Claret \| British Cars \| Welsh Corgi's

02-11-2009, 11:46 AM	#57
TheRiddick Non-believer Join Date: Jan 2009 First Name: Greg Location: Las Vegas Posts: 943 Trading: (7)	Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread: Anyone into white wine, try a bottle of Bonny Doon Pacific Reisling, superb match for spicy food IMO. The wine usually sells for roughly $11-12 here in CA, but I've seen it at $9 in FL shops. Goes great with sushi as well.

02-11-2009, 02:42 PM	#58
JohnnyFlake Just an old Wiseguy! Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: John Location: Henderson, Nevada Posts: 534 Trading: (18)	Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread: Another one, brought to my attention by relatives in Illinois. I'll be looking for this to try out this weekend. Simonassi Malbec Mendoza 2007 Sam's Wine & Liquor Score: 90 - Impressive aromas of blackberry and plums lead the way. Pours a clear, deep purplish red. Big and rich with a nice silky tannic finish. This jammy yet fresh, and very quaffable. Perfect for many cuisines, including Mexican, Spanish, Indian and Italian. $12.99 per bottle! __________________ A real man only needs Seven things in his life, Cigars, Women, Guns, Whiskey, Beer, Beans & Bacon!

02-13-2009, 10:46 AM	#59
BC-Axeman Guest Posts: n/a	Re: The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread: Brett! That's what causes that flavor. I hate it. I must have a low threshold for it. It makes wines taste dirty to me. If there are other great qualities to the wine I can overlook it, but it is only a negative, IMHO. I'm going to Paso Robles for the weekend and I'll be picking up some cases of wine from EOS vineyards called Lost Angel, thier "Mischievous" and Petite Syrah. I am in their club so they are $12 a bottle. I'll be visiting a lot of other wineries while I'm there.