2010 Formula One Thread

[mithrilG60]

Originally Posted by ir13

Most of the GP2 races are telivised right before the F1 Race pre show starts

Really? Wow, we apparently need your motosport coverage up here It's just as well to call Speed NASCAR TV. We get none of the pre-shows, very little WRC or Dakar, just lots and lots of NASCAR

[kgoings]

I watched the GP2 and the F1 race yesterday! Great stuff! I am sooo hooked cause of this thread.

F1 was a great race...what in the world was Vettle thinking! Good stuff!

[mosesbotbol]

The Red Bull collison pissed me off like no tomorrow. Weber should have moved aside if Vettel is faster. Vettel is my top driver in my F1 Fantasy league. Boy was I beside myself when that happened.

[mithrilG60]

Why? Why should Weber be required to surrender the racing line when he had full rights to defend his position and hold his line? It the job of the overtaking driver to successfully and safely execute the pass, not vice versa. There was no blue flag, nor was it a case where Vettel been significantly faster for an extended period and was being held up by Weber. That was in fact the first opportunity he'd had to pass at all.

Vettel veered right into Weber's path when there was no need to. It wasn't malicious, I think he just lost track of Weber's car in relation to his own (very easy to do considering the lack of peripheral vision in those cars). Had Vettel simply held his line into the braking zone Weber would have been forced to either back off or run extremely wide into 12 and likely go off the track entirely into 13.

The mistake was Vettel's, pure and simple. It just shows that, no matter how good a driver he is, he's still quite inexperienced in F1 and has a lot of learning left to do yet. I have little doubt that Vettel will be world champion several times over by the time he retires, but right now he costs himself a lot of points through small errors that lead to big conseqences. In this case he cost both himself and his team a significant amount of points.

[kgoings]

I still haven't picked a 'favorite' driver or team..but I am having a great time watching the races. I like to see guys coming from behind and making passes! The the maneuvering is pretty awesome too!

[mosesbotbol]

Originally Posted by mithrilG60

Why? Why should Weber be required to surrender the racing line when he had full rights to defend his position and hold his line?

He should not be defending his position if a team mate can pass him and obviously that is the case if Vettel is coming from behind him. Team mates should race as if they do not have side view mirrors.

They should put on a show like Hamilton and Button did, but those two are on the same page- racing for McLaren rather than their own race.

[mithrilG60]

Originally Posted by mosesbotbol

He should not be defending his position if a team mate can pass him and obviously that is the case if Vettel is coming from behind him. Team mates should race as if they do not have side view mirrors.

They should put on a show like Hamilton and Button did, but those two are on the same page- racing for McLaren rather than their own race.

I agree that they should have been smarter, but I still see it as Vettel's fault. As the overtaking driver he had the ultimate responsibility to ensure that his overtaking maneuver is safe. There was only a tenth between them and that difference had only existed for 3 or 4 laps so it's not like Vettel was on a completely different pace.

You're right that they should race as if they had no wing mirrors, and really with the amount the drivers can see out of them they effectivlely don't anyways. Part of that means you make bloody sure you're in clear space before you move over into another drivers racing line. Look at the replay's, Weber made absolutely no move at all.... it was Vettel that swerved into him. Vettel was the one who obviously lost spacial awareness of the car he was trying to pass and Vettel was the one that caused the crash. There is no fault that can be attributed to Weber in that situation, it was 100% on Vettel's shoulders.

[mosesbotbol]

Originally Posted by mithrilG60

I agree that they should have been smarter, but I still see it as Vettel's fault.

There is no fault that can be attributed to Weber in that situation, it was 100% on Vettel's shoulders.

You should be Weber's manager, as Red Bull sees it differently:

Helmut Marko, Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz's right-hand man at Red Bull Racing, sided firmly with Sebastian Vettel in the aftermath of the coming together with Mark Webber that eliminated the young German from the Turkish GP.

"Sebastian was ahead already and there was a left-hand corner coming, so he had to go to his line," said the former seventies F1 driver

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns22312.html

[mithrilG60]

I also wouldn't take his comment as the official Red Bull line on the incident. Neither Mateschitz or Horner have commented on it other than to say how displeased they were with the incident as a whole and how unnecessary it was. He's the only person I've heard take Vettel's side and quite honestly it's a ludicrous stance. In reality I don't care if that's RedBull's official line, if it is then they're ignoring the simple facts of the incident and they're wrong.

Vettel veered into Weber's line after 1/2 completing a passing maneuver, end of story. That's a driver error and one that's 100% Vettel's fault every single time.

Think about it; we're on the highway and I pass you. Instead of waiting until I'm fully clear and past you I decide to move back into your lane when only half car of my car is ahead of yours. Because of my decision to move over our cars contact causing a crash...... and somehow that's your fault? I'm sorry but that's a stance that's both completely wrong and doesn't make sense with any scenario on either a racing track or public road.

The simple fact is that the overtaking driver has the ultimate responsibility to ensure that he overtakes in a manner that is safe for everyone. If he can't, or doesn't, complete the pass (and being 1/2 a car length ahead is NOT a completed pass) it's not the responsibility of the other driver to let him through. Unless being blue flagged, the driver being overtaken has every right to hold and defend his line which is exactly what Weber did.

[ir13]

I think it was Weber's fault for not allowing enough racing room. But it doesnt matter much now anyways. It is nice to see some inter team rivalries brewing with RB and Mclaren.

[newcigarz]

Whose up for an Austin/F1 herf in 2012?


Sports Briefing | Auto Racing
Texas Will Host F1 Race
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: May 25, 2010



Formula One racing is coming back to the United States in 2012 with a long-term deal to race in Austin, Tex., on a track built specifically for the event. Officials from Formula One, Austin and Texas said the city would host the U.S. Grand Prix until 2021. The race was dropped after an eight-year run at Indianapolis Motor Speedway from 2000 to 2007. Bernie Ecclestone, Formula One’s president, said the race would mark the first time a course would be built specifically for an F1 race in the United States. Before its run in Indianapolis, Formula One was hosted by Las Vegas, Detroit, Dallas, Phoenix and Long Beach, Calif., on street circuits.



Sorry if this was already discussed.

[mithrilG60]

Originally Posted by ir13

I think it was Weber's fault for not allowing enough racing room.

How? Vettel pulled out to pass on the inside/dirty line, not Weber. It was Vettel's judgment that there was enough room to pass and Vettel's decision to attempt the pass. It was also Vettel's decision to turn back into Weber's line before he was fully past. Weber made no defensive moves to cut off or block his teammate, he just held his line as he was completely entitled to do. In doing so he made no attempt to block his teammate which is entirely in keeping with the team's edict on giving each other racing room. You can guarantee that Weber would not have accorded the same courtesy to either Hamilton or Button if they'd been trying to pass him there!

Vettel drove into Weber, not the other way around, there's simply no logical way of looking at incident where the fault lies with Weber.

[ir13]

Originally Posted by mithrilG60

How? Vettel pulled out to pass on the inside/dirty line, not Weber. It was Vettel's judgment that there was enough room to pass and Vettel's decision to attempt the pass. It was also Vettel's decision to turn back into Weber's line before he was fully past. Weber made no defensive moves to cut off or block his teammate, he just held his line as he was completely entitled to do. In doing so he made no attempt to block his teammate which is entirely in keeping with the team's edict on giving each other racing room. You can guarantee that Weber would not have accorded the same courtesy to either Hamilton or Button if they'd been trying to pass him there!

Vettel drove into Weber, not the other way around, there's simply no logical way of looking at incident where the fault lies with Weber.

The bolded statement is false.

Weber would have done the same exact thing if it was a non teammate, he is racing. Vettel said to the bosses he didnt want to say anything on the radio bc of the the rule of team orders in the sporting code, but he was clearly faster than weber.

[mithrilG60]

No, it's actually quite true (unless you meant to bold another part of my comment?).

Weber would have gone fully defensive and attempted to actively block the pass attempt in order to retain his race position if it had been anyone other than a teammate. As it was he followed team orders regarding racing room did not. By simply holding his line he extended the courtesy of giving Vettel as much racing room as Vettel thought there was in the first place. Had Vettel held his line into the braking zone he could have either out braked Weber cutting him off into 12 or forced him wide and ducked underneath him into 13 as Button did on Hamilton. Personally I think Vettel's swerve to the right which brought them into contact was an attempt to force Weber over and thus make him run wide.

You are quite right though in the statement that Weber was racing. More precisely he was racing the driver with whom he was tied for the championship lead. That's exactly why it's ludacrious to expect him to move over and allow Vettel to pass simply because they happen to be on the same team. Vettel made a brave, but ultimately bad, passing decision and followed it up with a driver error by moving into Weber's pre-existing line making the fault for the incident 100% his. End of story.

[mithrilG60]

Originally Posted by mosesbotbol

You should be Weber's manager, as Red Bull sees it differently:

Helmut Marko, Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz's right-hand man at Red Bull Racing, sided firmly with Sebastian Vettel in the aftermath of the coming together with Mark Webber that eliminated the young German from the Turkish GP.

"Sebastian was ahead already and there was a left-hand corner coming, so he had to go to his line," said the former seventies F1 driver

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns22312.html

http://www.racefanstv.com/news/open-...mula-one/8858/

Marko's comments were based on incomplete evidence and without seeing full replays and team info. RedBull's Horner is recanting Marko's blame of Weber and taking the position it was an "unfortunate racing accident that should never have happened between teammates". I'm sure that internally they all have their own opinions on who was at fault but from a team perspective there's no point placing public blame on either driver for an incident that was clearly not intentional or malicious. The kind of blame game Marko started in on does nothing to repair team unity.

[mosesbotbol]

Originally Posted by mithrilG60

That's exactly why it's ludacrious to expect him to move over and allow Vettel to pass simply because they happen to be on the same team.

Have to disagree on this. That mentality does not serve well for winning the Constructor's which is more important to the team the Driver's Championship. Not only that, Weber had a slower engine map as he was lower on fuel and was told to keep the rev's down. Vettel was clearly faster and Weber was just being a prick.

[mithrilG60]

You're right, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. Webber 1st, Vettel 2nd or Vettel 1st, Webber 2nd..... either result gives the same number of points to RedBull insofar as the constructors championship is concerned. The difference is in the drivers championship in which they were tied for the lead. The constructors championship doesn't give any reason for Webber to pull over and give Vettel that pass when he had both track position and the racing line. In point of fact the drivers championship gives him every reason to exert his rights and hold the racing line. Your argument can be applied equally in reverse that ensuring constructors points was reason enough for Vettel to NOT attempt that pass. It's just as wrong when applied to that scenario too.

As I said above, Webber played the team player by not closing the door on Vettel right from the outside. He was more than entitled to hold his line against Vettel just as he would be against any other driver. I might agree with your assessment if there had been any indication that Webber had acted to block or interfere with Vettel's attempt. However, watch the replays there is clearly no hand or wheel movement on Webber's part until Vettel hits him he has to fight to maintain control of his car. F1's not drag racing, the fastest car isn't automatically entitled to the win. Neither Vettel nor anyone else is owed a clear path by any driver on that track. Vettel had another 1 or 2 laps at a 10th faster than Webber before he too had to switch engine maps to conserve fuel, if he couldn't find a way past Webber in those couple laps then tough titty. It's absolutely no different than Alonso getting held up by slower cars in Monaco or what Schumacher has done to Button in a couple races now or the Trulli Trains from last season, if you can't find a way past the car in front of you your car can be seconds per lap faster than anyone else.... you're still not getting that win.

Vettel took himself completely out of the race and cost Weber the win through driver error. In the process he cost the team valuable points in the constructors championship, as well loosing points for both himself and Webber in drivers championship. If anyone's was a prick in this situation it's Vettel, and that's not a fair statement because it obviously was not intentional.

[kgoings]

I am curious. Is Mark Webber one on the 'hated' or not popular drivers?

[ir13]

Originally Posted by kgoings

I am curious. Is Mark Webber one on the 'hated' or not popular drivers?

Not to my knowledge, he is head of the GPDC if i remember correctly.

[kgoings]

Another great race, I liked this one due to all the lead changes and the strategy.

F1 races are great for smoking a Churchill! I dvr the races then when the wife and kidos goto but I use my DirecTV app to stream the races to my laptop outside while I smoke!