How to protect humidors from winter dry ??

[joeobx]

Originally Posted by Bill86

It's bound to happen someday and I'm going to laugh when it does but if people seriously use kitty liter long term someone with cat is going to be awful pissed when kitty finds the secret litter box. You leave it open.....walk away for a minute, kitty sees something new finds a new litter box....

I have a small desktop humidor, roughly 50ct. If I do not plan on smoking much, thus not opening it up often during these dry winter months do I need to worry much about the low 62 RH that it's currently holding?


I have only opened it when needed to refill my Xikar jar. This jar is close to needing replacement which may help the RH some as well.

but if i'm holding in the low 60s will my sticks be safe until the season changes?

Originally Posted by Whiskeytown

I have a small desktop humidor, roughly 50ct. If I do not plan on smoking much, thus not opening it up often during these dry winter months do I need to worry much about the low 62 RH that it's currently holding?


I have only opened it when needed to refill my Xikar jar. This jar is close to needing replacement which may help the RH some as well.

but if i'm holding in the low 60s will my sticks be safe until the season changes?

Some smokers keep their humis at a low RH. they should be ok, but personally I wouldn't go below 62-63%.

I know of several people using kitty litter with satisfactory results. it does take a little time and effort to achieve desired RH levels. But, it seems the main reason for KL use is cost comparisons. Humidity regulating (cigar) beads are definitley more expensive per pound, but how often do you need to buy them? You spend hundreds and even thousands on your cigars, dont F around with your humidity control. KL absorbs excess moisture, but doesnt really release needed. you have to mess around with it to get levels of RH you want. I reccomend using something designed to regulate humidity,up or down.

[NCRadioMan]

Originally Posted by Whiskeytown

I have a small desktop humidor, roughly 50ct. If I do not plan on smoking much, thus not opening it up often during these dry winter months do I need to worry much about the low 62 RH that it's currently holding?


I have only opened it when needed to refill my Xikar jar. This jar is close to needing replacement which may help the RH some as well.

but if i'm holding in the low 60s will my sticks be safe until the season changes?

My humidors stay 60-63% year-round so imo, sounds like what your are doing will be just fine.

[CigarNut]

Originally Posted by UpInSmoke

I know of several people using kitty litter with satisfactory results. it does take a little time and effort to achieve desired RH levels. But, it seems the main reason for KL use is cost comparisons. Humidity regulating (cigar) beads are definitley more expensive per pound, but how often do you need to buy them? You spend hundreds and even thousands on your cigars, dont F around with your humidity control. KL absorbs excess moisture, but doesnt really release needed. you have to mess around with it to get levels of RH you want. I reccomend using something designed to regulate humidity,up or down.

Your cost assertion is not entirely true as that is only part of the equation. It takes quite a bit more kitty litter to do the job than it does RH beads (Heartfelt or HCM) so you are trading off a lot of space. I think most people would prefer to use their humidors for cigar storage rather than kitty litter storage.

Originally Posted by CigarNut

Your cost assertion is not entirely true as that is only part of the equation. It takes quite a bit more kitty litter to do the job than it does RH beads (Heartfelt or HCM) so you are trading off a lot of space. I think most people would prefer to use their humidors for cigar storage rather than kitty litter storage.

I am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with my post.
I was basically knocking kitty litter. I was saying that the cost difference,to me,is not a good reason to use KL. And I totally agree with you on the space. It takes more KL,and works best in wide shallow containers.

Something elese to consider is the chemicals in kitty litter.http://koinonianetwork.org/profiles/...tter-encounter
IMO Kitty litter may not be what I would go with.

It can also cause mold from being stored in a dirty store stock room, or in a nasty trailor ride to the store, or from a humid warehouse floor.

Water on kitty litter just like anything else can cause microbal growth espically in a dark warm humid enviroment (IE a humidor). I recommend Xikar gel jar and distilled soultion ( changing up the refill soultion every other bottle also helps fromwhat I have hear) and I can't get over the mental issue of "this product was meant to hold cat turds" and the metal image of a cat turd next to my worst dog rocket is an unappealing image.

[CigarNut]

Originally Posted by UpInSmoke

I am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with my post.
I was basically knocking kitty litter. I was saying that the cost difference,to me,is not a good reason to use KL. And I totally agree with you on the space. It takes more KL,and works best in wide shallow containers.

Both. I was just encouraging people to look at more than simple cost.

If you consider your humidor to be "prime real-estate" and that you want to reserve as much space for cigars as possible then it becomes more apparent that there is more to it than simple cost.

Bottom line though -- as you said -- we are in agreement

[BigCat]

Getting back to the original question, if you're using cooladors and tupperware, I'm not sure why you would experience much winter fluxuation. My experience with both is that they are practically air tight. I think I have added water to my cooler once in the last 6 months and it was just a cap full of distilled water. I live in Michigan, so it gets pretty dry here, too.

[RobR1205]

I'm currently living in CT and keeping my desktop humidor in a desk draw or clothing closet really helps keeps my humidor from leaking in the extreme low humidity...I check my cigars periodically and so far, I've been at a constant 70% all winter long!

[BlindedByScience]

I used to put a shot glass of distilled water in my desktop along with the socks of beads when the forced air heat kicked on for the year. My coolers sealed so well (and I got into them far less frequently) that no additional steps were required there beyond the beads.

My Staebell cabinet has active humidification, which is the bomb. I do have to add distilled water slightly more often with the heat on, but it maintains the RH very accurately. I still have my sacks of beads in the cabinet as a little "ballast" for the RH.

....

[markem]

Since it hasn't been addressed in quite this way, I'll jump in.

It appears to me that you are in the situation where the ambient RH in your house fluctuates, probably based on time of year. That you would have a problem holding RH inside your storage when the ambient RH is so low should not be surprising. You notice this because the ambient RH isn't consistent enough for you to use only a single approach to how you maintain the RH inside your storage year round.

First, realize that almost no cigar storage container will have a perfect seal. I recall taking a class in college called "The Viscosity of Solids" which hurt my head but hammered home the impracticality of trying to perfect seals except where it was necessary to sustain life. Second, since some exchange will occur between the ambient environment and the storage environment, one can expect to see a larger change to occur, in this situation, when the differential gradient is steep, such as you describe.

Adding more beads or kitty litter or what-have-you may be a perfectly reasonable solution that gets you past the dry times (I am assuming that your beads are quite dry right now). However, you can also run a small experiment for almost no money. Get a small, nonporous container and clean it thoroughly with hot, soapy, distilled water. Rinse it completely with distilled water. Put some distilled water in to the container and put it in to your storage. This is, in effect, supplementing your passive humidification (beads) with a simple form of active humidification. The beads will let you know when you can remove the water container.

I used to do that for my coolers in the winter. Saved me loads on beads.

An alternate is to have a spray bottle of distilled water that you use to mist the inside lid of the storage on occasion. Don't mist the boxes or sticks. Much more work, but same concept and doesn't take any space.

[shilala]

Maybe I can throw a little reasoning into why the winter is tough on humidors...

First off, they're made from wood. Wood looses moisture and contracts significantly in the winter. That alone is enough to create minor seal issues.
Now add the difference in the surrounding RH. In the summer it's generally around 80%. In the winter with no humidification in your house (in northern climates) it'll drop to around 15%.

Now some physics...
In HVAC terms, the industry uses the word "crack" for leaks. Anywhere there's a door or window, you measure that, add it up, then use mathematical computation to add btu's to see how much heat you need to apply to that room to defeat the air coming in.
You're also dealing with vapor pressure.
Air laden with water creates a physical, quantifiable pressure. It always tries to rush to an area with a lower pressure, much like air escaping from a balloon. It's much different from heat flowing to a cold area, there's far more actual pressure involved.

So now let's look at it through numbers...
In the summer, you're looking at 80% vapor pressure trying to enter a 65% humidor. That's a force equivalent to 15%, and it's working on a length of crack that's probably at least 95% good. Very low leakage. So there's not much exchange in vapor, period. It's easy to control with minimal effort.
Now winter comes.
You have an outside vapor pressure of 15%. Inside the humidor you have a vapor pressure corresponding to 65%RH. That's a coefficient equal to 50%. Over 3 times the strength is pushing out in the winter than is pushing in in the summer.
Now, you also have a shrunken humidor. Odds are that the 95% seal has degraded to at least 75%. Odds are it's even more, and it gets worse as winter goes along and your humi continues to warp and shrink.
So now you have 50% more pressure acting on a minimum of 20% more crack.
That's a lot more pressure going through a much bigger hole.

How can I combat this kind of thing?
Seal up your humidor.
Place your desktop in a big ziplock or plastic bag.
Run a console evaporative humidifier in the room with your cigars (I run 3 in my house all winter because my skin is crazy dry and the kids get nosebleeds if I don't).
Add active humidification.
Add more beads.

Also realize that every time you open your humidor or winador or whatever, you compound the problem. In the summer your beads only have to compensate for a 15% RH differential. In the winter, 50%. That means they need to give up a lot more water to keep your cigars at the proper RH.

All this stuff is all well and good, but nothing beats a well-sealed humidor. Lots of us have the pretty ones with glass that are made from particle board and glue. They're cheap humidors. As such, we get what we paid for. With some ingenuity, caulking, weather seal and a positive latch, I can turn any cheap humidor into one that's airtight. You can, too.
Humidors don't just magically lose RH. Lots of us think the water gets eaten by cigars or disappears magically or gets pulled into a black hole, or we don't give it any thought at all.
Your answers to where it goes are right up there ^.

Every different humi has it's own quirks. My big display humi required two tubes of caulking, an Avallo EZ, and about ten pounds of beads in the bottom to keep it perfect this year. My winador hasn't required much of anything beyong a capful of distilled water. It's nice and tight.
The good news is that they can all be fixed. Michael (cigarnut) is a master at this sort of thing. His beads are second to none and he (and many others) can tell you exactly what steps you can take to plug up your leaky humidors.

If we understand one simple principle, it makes everything very clear as to what we need to do. Humidity does not get used up or disappear. It escapes. It always wants to seek equilibrium, and a higher RH exerts pressure to go to a lower pressure area. It always wants to be equal and happy. That's what Equilibrium is, and that's how ALL beads work, whether it be Kitty litter, HCM beads, RH beads, or Viper's beads. They release and adsorb (adsorb is not a typo, beads don't absorb anything, paper towels absorb) water by this same principle of equilibrium.
That same principle is at play on the inside and outside of your humidor. The ONLY way to counter that effect is to seal it up tighter than a frog's ass.


If your humidor is losing RH rapidly, you have a big leak problem. If it's gaining rapidly in the summer, you have an even bigger problem, and bigger leaks.

[shilala]

Oh, and one more thing...
Kitty Litter. It's silica gel. Very low grade. It's physical makeup is such that it's very poorly constructed and doesn't lend itself to the electrical covalency required for adsorbtion. It lasts about a year before the pores are completely clogged with free hydrocarbons, rendering it completely useless as a humidity transfer media.
On top of that, it requires 9 times the surface area of Kitty Litter to provide the same transfer of water as ANY other beads. This means if you are using 2-8 ounce bags of HCM beads or RH Beads or any other beads, you'd need 18-8oz bags of kitty litter to achieve results that are remotely similar to that of ANY proper humidity control media.
Yes, it works. It works exactly the same as the rest, it works on the principle of equilibrium.
The differences are this...
Kitty litter holds far less water and reacts 9 times slower than anything else. The pores are so large that it plugs up 3 times as fast as anything else.
If Kitty litter costs $2 a pound, and other beads cost $60 a pound, it will take $18 worth of Kitty Litter every six months to maintain anything like equal protection for your cigars. So now it's $36 a year to use Kitty Litter for equal results. In two years you'll have spent just as much as if you bought beads that will last the rest of your life (HCM beads).
$36 is about the same cost as RH beads and Cigarmony beads, I believe. Mark and Dave's beads can easily last for years in a well-sealed humidor. They last a lot longer the less you pour water on them, but eventually they'll take on free hydrocarbons (turning yellow) as years pass and they won't react as quickly. No big, you just replace them. They've given you lots of years of excellent service.
With Michael's beads, they never degrade, never crumble, and the pores are 4 angstroms wide, which means that they are incapable of ever being plugged with free hydrocarbons. The hydrocarbon chains are simply too big to fit inside the beads.
They literally last forever with zero degradation in reactancy.
Now here's another nugget...
Although Dave and Mark's beads will take on hydrocarbons, they can NEVER completely fill with hydrocarbons. That's because some of the pores are 4 angstroms and below. If I recall correctly, that grade of silica gel has pores that run from 2 to 10 angstroms. So no matter how crumbly or brown they get, they will always continue to work, just not as well (in net aggregate terms) as when they were brand-spankin new. So in a sense, they will also last a lifetime. There's no need to ever throw them out, you can just add some new beads as they get older. We can always use extra beads.
This isn't so with Kitty Litter. They run from 24 to 12 angstrom pores, are wildly marginal in their structure, work like crap, and inside 6 months to a year they are completely worthless. You simply don't get what you pay for no matter how it shakes out.
There's one instance where Kitty Litter can be marginally effective, and a cheap addition to a humidor. That's if you use it as an extra water source in dry months. It does hold a large amount of water. It's much higher than the rest of the silica gel products and if I remember correctly it rivals the capacity of HCM beads. I'd have to dig forever to find numbers and I don't think I kept that test data. I've looked for it twice now and had no luck. If I had some Kitty Litter I could dry it and find out again, but it's not that important.
A person could use it as a water sink to provide extra water in his humidor and just replace it. Thing is, SAP (super absorbant polymer) would do the same and just as cheaply. Plus you can add a little PG solution to SAP and it won't mold up. You can use it all winter long.
One other place a person could use Kitty Litter is in long term storage where you're not getting in and out of a cooler or cabinet. Why someone would make sense of using a $2/lb media that's been tested and proven as completely and utterly inferior to anything else is beyond me, but it'd last a lot longer in that situation. Personally I'd not protect thousands of dollars of aging cc's with anything but the very best media available, but to each his own. I'm just trying to get the truth out there for the umpteenth time, I didn't spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars conducting tests for nothing.

My final word on the Kitty Litter is "smoke what you like, like what you smoke". If Kitty Litter makes sense and it's what someone wants to do, we should all respect it.
But we should also try to educate our friends. Spreading nonfactual information for or against any product doesn't help anyone. We're all more than smart enough to make our own intelligent choices once we're informed, and we're all free to use whatever media we want and support whatever company or individual we choose.
The bottom line is that they all work.
Dave, Mark and Michael have all been top-notch BOTL's from day one and have helped and supported many of us, myself included. The Kitty Litter people have never helped me out a bit, that I can remember.

Thanks, shilala.

Not my head is reeling.

[shilala]

I now understand why your avatar is a brain.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Bill86

It's bound to happen someday and I'm going to laugh when it does but if people seriously use kitty liter long term someone with cat is going to be awful pissed when kitty finds the secret litter box. You leave it open.....walk away for a minute, kitty sees something new finds a new litter box....

And thus the Acid was born.

[jluck]

Originally Posted by coty

I now understand why your avatar is a brain.

He is one smart dude! just run it through the idiot filter (It's how I have to read everything) it translates like this....Just by my damn beads because they work!