Pete Rose, 20 years later...HOF or not? - Page 2

Volt · 07-28-2009, 03:52 AM

I said no. The fact that "others" have done the same/worse things is not a defense or excuse. He was well beyond the age of knowing what is right and wrong. He chose to break the rules, got caught, and got a punishment. I'd have some respect for him if he cowboy'ed up, went public, said he did it and accepted the punishment like a man.

I'm pretty much a black and white type person. Not saying I don't do wrong but when I do I take what ever comes. Nobody forces me to do "bad" things, momma didn't beat me, I didn't grow up in a "depressed" area, etc. A little personal responsibility and courage would go a long ways in today's society. If he really wants to be a "hero" or an example" - go on tour, tell the kids he screwed up, show respect and responsibility to the game and rules. That being a thug or rule breaker does have consequences.

taltos · 07-28-2009, 04:39 AM

I also voted no. Gambling is the one area that is unforgivable especially when you are betting on a game in which you are managing one of the teams. It is too easy to fix a game and destroy the credibility that Major League Baseball has worked hard to earn. If Joe Jackson is still banned while there is testimony that he was not involved in the Black Sox Scandal, I can see no credible reason to reverse Rose's ban. Maybe I would agree with the Old Timers Committee voting for his admission after his death so that he could never market himself as a Hall of Famer.

elderboy02 · 07-28-2009, 05:00 AM

Put Pete in!

shvictor · 07-28-2009, 05:36 AM

As long as he never bet against his own team, he should be in.

SeanGAR · 07-28-2009, 05:46 AM

Do you get into the HOF for playing achievements or for helping little old ladies cross the road?

Rose, a switch hitter, is the all-time Major League leader in hits (4,256), games played (3,562), at-bats (14,053)[1], and outs (10,328). He won three World Series rings, three batting titles, one Most Valuable Player Award, two Gold Gloves, the Rookie of the Year Award, and made 17 All-Star appearances at an unequaled five different positions (2B, LF, RF, 3B, and 1B).

He didn't fix games, he bet his team would win. According to the Dowd Report itself, "no evidence was discovered that Rose bet against the Reds."

He bet his team would win and he is being placed in with people who knowingly threw games for profit? That's ridiculous.

Rose lied about his gambling for years ... that is the real problem I see here. If he came out at the beginning and admitted he bet that his teams would win ... I can't see giving him a lifetime ban for that.

On February 4, 1991, the Hall of Fame voted to formally exclude individuals on the permanently ineligible list from being inducted into the Hall of Fame by way of the Baseball Writers Association of America vote. AFTER THE FACT.

vankleekkw · 07-28-2009, 05:47 AM

While betting in sports is against the rules, look at the facts.

1. He did it when he was a Manager and not a player. Ban the Manager Pete, but not the player Pete
2. He always bet that his team would win.

As a side note, if the ban is lifted, the ban on Shoeless Joe needs to be lifted as well.

vankleekkw · 07-28-2009, 05:48 AM

Oh, and to allow Manny Rameriz back into the sport with open arms after taking Steroids is a shot in everyones face. This sport is starting to get another black eye.

GreekGodX · 07-28-2009, 06:09 AM

They need to let him in.. He is a better player then a lot of guys already in.

e-man67 · 07-28-2009, 06:26 AM

He gambled, so what...he didn't fix any games and it doesn't make his astounding accomplishments any less...he is one of the greatest players of all times and needs to be in!

krash · 07-28-2009, 06:37 AM

I voted "It depends". If the other HOF members are OK with him in, let him in. If they don't, he stays out. Pete Rose was a great baseball player. I don't think anyone would disagree with that statement. But, there are other qualifying factors to get into the HOF. I think Bud Selig should lift the ban, and let the voters decide if he should be admitted. Until Selig lifts the ban, nothing is going to happen.

chippewastud79 · 07-28-2009, 07:17 AM

If he would have admitted to betting on his team immediately would this even be a question? Or is it just because he denied it?

He clearly has the numbers to put in his own wing in the Hall of Fame. Not sure another player can rival the numbers he put up or the passion with which he played the game.

shilala · 07-28-2009, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taltos

I also voted no. Gambling is the one area that is unforgivable especially when you are betting on a game in which you are managing one of the teams. It is too easy to fix a game and destroy the credibility that Major League Baseball has worked hard to earn. If Joe Jackson is still banned while there is testimony that he was not involved in the Black Sox Scandal, I can see no credible reason to reverse Rose's ban. Maybe I would agree with the Old Timers Committee voting for his admission after his death so that he could never market himself as a Hall of Famer.

Pete bet on his team to win.
He ain't the Black Sox.
He is a liar though. A bad one, too. And he ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer.
But it's the Hall of Fame, we're not putting him up for sainthood.

BlackDog · 07-28-2009, 07:47 AM

I voted no. Gambling has no place in baseball. I genuinely doubt he'll ever get in.

Clampdown · 07-28-2009, 07:48 AM

If Ty Cobb is allowed in, why not Pete?

Volt · 07-28-2009, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shilala

Pete bet on his team to win.
He ain't the Black Sox.
He is a liar though. A bad one, too. And he ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer.
But it's the Hall of Fame, we're not putting him up for sainthood.

Scott, if I can politely disagree. The HOF is that, the place where people who are the above average people. The ones who had careers that shined for many reasons. He is not IMO. It is to me more than a place of stats. Who were the best that did the most for their sport? Staying with only Pete Rose, he did not.

At best - there will have to be a lot of agreeing to disagree on this man.

icehog3 · 07-28-2009, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnukfu

And if they let even one of the known steroid users in then there is absolutely no excuse to keep him out.

Bingo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

He bet his team would win and he is being placed in with people who knowingly threw games for profit? That's ridiculous.

Bingo.

07-28-2009, 08:09 AM

For the guys who keep bringing up how good his stats were, I respectfully give u this to chew on.

Rose was not just a player, he was a manager. And as a manager he bet not only on baseball, but on the very team he was managing. Did he bet on them to win, or to lose? We don't know the answer to that ,question. The fCt that the Dowd report concluded there was no evidence of his betting on them to lose doesn't mean he didn't do it. And I'd be willing to bet there's a lot that we don't know about given Fay Vincents being so adamant about not wanting him in. Bottom line is the HOF has players, managers and broadcasters in it, it's not llimited to on field accomplishments as a player, it includes people for their OVERALL contributions to the sport. You can't seperate Rose the played from Rose the manager, and what he did as a manager is so reprehensible and so outside the pale that to me he doesn't belong there

shilala · 07-28-2009, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volt

Scott, if I can politely disagree. The HOF is that, the place where people who are the above average people. The ones who had careers that shined for many reasons. He is not IMO. It is to me more than a place of stats. Who were the best that did the most for their sport? Staying with only Pete Rose, he did not.

At best - there will have to be a lot of agreeing to disagree on this man.

Babe Ruth was an alcoholic who threw women down the stairs regularly.
I won't even get started on Ty Cobb.

icehog3 · 07-28-2009, 08:17 AM

I disagree Vic....I think you would need to clean house in the HOF if being a good person is one of the requirements!

07-28-2009, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icehog3

I disagree Vic....I think you would need to clean house in the HOF if being a good person is one of the requirements!

I respect where your coming from Tom. So……you support Simpsons being in Canton? After all, his crimes are completely unconnected to football

View Poll Results: Should Pete Rose be in the Hall of Fame?
Rose should be in the Hall.	62	65.26%
Rose should not be in the Hall.	20	21.05%
Depends (discuss below).	7	7.37%
I could care less.	6	6.32%
Voters: 95. You may not vote on this poll

07-28-2009, 03:52 AM	#21
Volt I'm nuts for the place Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 2,799 Trading: (19)	Re: Pete Rose, 20 years later...HOF or not? I said no. The fact that "others" have done the same/worse things is not a defense or excuse. He was well beyond the age of knowing what is right and wrong. He chose to break the rules, got caught, and got a punishment. I'd have some respect for him if he cowboy'ed up, went public, said he did it and accepted the punishment like a man. I'm pretty much a black and white type person. Not saying I don't do wrong but when I do I take what ever comes. Nobody forces me to do "bad" things, momma didn't beat me, I didn't grow up in a "depressed" area, etc. A little personal responsibility and courage would go a long ways in today's society. If he really wants to be a "hero" or an example" - go on tour, tell the kids he screwed up, show respect and responsibility to the game and rules. That being a thug or rule breaker does have consequences. __________________ Curing the infection... One bullet at a time.

07-28-2009, 04:39 AM	#22
taltos Really, really old Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Paul Location: Saugus, MA Posts: 2,486 Trading: (3)	Re: Pete Rose, 20 years later...HOF or not? I also voted no. Gambling is the one area that is unforgivable especially when you are betting on a game in which you are managing one of the teams. It is too easy to fix a game and destroy the credibility that Major League Baseball has worked hard to earn. If Joe Jackson is still banned while there is testimony that he was not involved in the Black Sox Scandal, I can see no credible reason to reverse Rose's ban. Maybe I would agree with the Old Timers Committee voting for his admission after his death so that he could never market himself as a Hall of Famer. __________________ Jimmy, some of its magic, some of its tragic, but I had a good life all the way. He Went to Paris, J. Buffett

07-28-2009, 05:00 AM	#23
elderboy02 Lets Go Buckeyes! Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Dan Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 12,496 Trading: (133)	Re: Pete Rose, 20 years later...HOF or not? Put Pete in!

07-28-2009, 05:36 AM	#24
shvictor Instigator Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Steve Location: Lathrop, CA Posts: 2,846 Trading: (40)	Re: Pete Rose, 20 years later...HOF or not? As long as he never bet against his own team, he should be in. __________________

07-28-2009, 05:46 AM	#25
SeanGAR Crotchety Geezer Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Radford VA Posts: 911 Trading: (3)	Re: Pete Rose, 20 years later...HOF or not? Do you get into the HOF for playing achievements or for helping little old ladies cross the road? Rose, a switch hitter, is the all-time Major League leader in hits (4,256), games played (3,562), at-bats (14,053)[1], and outs (10,328). He won three World Series rings, three batting titles, one Most Valuable Player Award, two Gold Gloves, the Rookie of the Year Award, and made 17 All-Star appearances at an unequaled five different positions (2B, LF, RF, 3B, and 1B). He didn't fix games, he bet his team would win. According to the Dowd Report itself, "no evidence was discovered that Rose bet against the Reds." He bet his team would win and he is being placed in with people who knowingly threw games for profit? That's ridiculous. Rose lied about his gambling for years ... that is the real problem I see here. If he came out at the beginning and admitted he bet that his teams would win ... I can't see giving him a lifetime ban for that. On February 4, 1991, the Hall of Fame voted to formally exclude individuals on the permanently ineligible list from being inducted into the Hall of Fame by way of the Baseball Writers Association of America vote. AFTER THE FACT. __________________ How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

07-28-2009, 05:47 AM	#26
vankleekkw Still Watching My Back Join Date: Nov 2008 First Name: Kris Location: Round Lake, IL Posts: 136 Trading: (3)	Re: Pete Rose, 20 years later...HOF or not? While betting in sports is against the rules, look at the facts. 1. He did it when he was a Manager and not a player. Ban the Manager Pete, but not the player Pete 2. He always bet that his team would win. As a side note, if the ban is lifted, the ban on Shoeless Joe needs to be lifted as well.

07-28-2009, 05:48 AM	#27
vankleekkw Still Watching My Back Join Date: Nov 2008 First Name: Kris Location: Round Lake, IL Posts: 136 Trading: (3)	Re: Pete Rose, 20 years later...HOF or not? Oh, and to allow Manny Rameriz back into the sport with open arms after taking Steroids is a shot in everyones face. This sport is starting to get another black eye.

07-28-2009, 06:09 AM	#28
GreekGodX Opa!! Join Date: Mar 2009 First Name: Christos Location: 7 Line Posts: 4,893 Trading: (82)	Re: Pete Rose, 20 years later...HOF or not? They need to let him in.. He is a better player then a lot of guys already in. __________________ "If I give a businessman 10,000 francs, what is that to him, he is rich. But if I give him a Cohiba cigar, that is style."-Hotel Rwanda

07-28-2009, 06:26 AM	#29
e-man67 Big Drunkin Monkey!! Join Date: Mar 2009 First Name: Eric Posts: 1,480 Trading: (29)	Re: Pete Rose, 20 years later...HOF or not? He gambled, so what...he didn't fix any games and it doesn't make his astounding accomplishments any less...he is one of the greatest players of all times and needs to be in!

07-28-2009, 06:37 AM	#30
krash Just in from the Storm Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Bob Location: Central MN Posts: 40 Trading: (3)	Re: Pete Rose, 20 years later...HOF or not? I voted "It depends". If the other HOF members are OK with him in, let him in. If they don't, he stays out. Pete Rose was a great baseball player. I don't think anyone would disagree with that statement. But, there are other qualifying factors to get into the HOF. I think Bud Selig should lift the ban, and let the voters decide if he should be admitted. Until Selig lifts the ban, nothing is going to happen.

07-28-2009, 07:17 AM	#31
chippewastud79 Fatter than you! Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Larry Location: A little place called home. Posts: 5,397 Trading: (44)	Re: Pete Rose, 20 years later...HOF or not? If he would have admitted to betting on his team immediately would this even be a question? Or is it just because he denied it? He clearly has the numbers to put in his own wing in the Hall of Fame. Not sure another player can rival the numbers he put up or the passion with which he played the game. __________________ If we weren't supposed to eat animals, then how come they're made of meat? You can never have too many cigars, they are like an investment in good times.

07-28-2009, 07:47 AM	#33
BlackDog Gonna make you groove... Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Warren Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 2,468 Trading: (19)	Re: Pete Rose, 20 years later...HOF or not? I voted no. Gambling has no place in baseball. I genuinely doubt he'll ever get in. __________________ "We live in the good of this."

07-28-2009, 07:48 AM	#34
Clampdown I Cut Like a Buffalo Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Brian Location: Noneya Posts: 868 Trading: (12)	Re: Pete Rose, 20 years later...HOF or not? If Ty Cobb is allowed in, why not Pete?

07-28-2009, 08:09 AM	#37
Resipsa Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Pete Rose, 20 years later...HOF or not? For the guys who keep bringing up how good his stats were, I respectfully give u this to chew on. Rose was not just a player, he was a manager. And as a manager he bet not only on baseball, but on the very team he was managing. Did he bet on them to win, or to lose? We don't know the answer to that ,question. The fCt that the Dowd report concluded there was no evidence of his betting on them to lose doesn't mean he didn't do it. And I'd be willing to bet there's a lot that we don't know about given Fay Vincents being so adamant about not wanting him in. Bottom line is the HOF has players, managers and broadcasters in it, it's not llimited to on field accomplishments as a player, it includes people for their OVERALL contributions to the sport. You can't seperate Rose the played from Rose the manager, and what he did as a manager is so reprehensible and so outside the pale that to me he doesn't belong there

07-28-2009, 08:17 AM	#39
icehog3 Admiral Douchebag Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Tom Location: Clermont, Kentucky Posts: 70,561 Trading: (60)	Re: Pete Rose, 20 years later...HOF or not? I disagree Vic....I think you would need to clean house in the HOF if being a good person is one of the requirements! __________________ Thanks Dave, Julian, James, Kelly, Peter, Gerry, Dave, Mo, Frank, Týr and Mr. Mark!