Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.

[pnoon]

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

I haven't read Mike's contract with Olivia .... have you?



Sound stupid? This is about Olivia wanting price fixing and non-competitive selling of their cigars. I disagree with this completely.



I would absolutely NOT say that. I have not met the Olivias to say one way or the other. However, idiotic business decisions are made all over this country on a daily basis. Can you say "New Coke?".



Some competitor squealed on Mike's and complained that they were undercutting their price. I prefer capitalism and competition in the marketplace, not communistic pricing practices. I won't buy more Olivias as a result of this, but I doubt that will make a dime's difference in their bottom line. I really don't care, it is the principle.

Originally Posted by Legend

I stand corrected. You are much smarter than the guys at oliva, they are stupid, you have considered every possible business situation. Forgive my Impertinence, I will no longer doubt you.

SeanGar's response is arguing ideas and stating his point of view.
Your reply is personal.

Let's keep the personal insults out of this.

[SeanGAR]

Originally Posted by Legend

I stand corrected. You are much smarter than the guys at oliva, they are stupid, you have considered every possible business situation. Forgive my Impertinence, I will no longer doubt you.

Read my blasted post and stop trying to put words into my mouth.

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

I have not met the Olivias to say one way or the other.

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

Some competitor squealed on Mike's and complained that they were undercutting their price. I prefer capitalism and competition in the marketplace, not communistic pricing practices. I won't buy more Olivias as a result of this, but I doubt that will make a dime's difference in their bottom line. I really don't care, it is the principle.

Oliva is practicing free market capitalism. Choosing who they sell to and how their product is marketed. Sorry to doubt you again, but check your definitions of communism

[jaymz]

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

Some competitor squealed on Mike's and complained that they were undercutting their price. I prefer capitalism and competition in the marketplace, not communistic pricing practices. I won't buy more Olivias as a result of this, but I doubt that will make a dime's difference in their bottom line. I really don't care, it is the principle.

What is good for the consumer and the economy is that companies obey the contractual agreements that they are legally bound by. In a capitalist system, Oliva has the right to sell their products at the price they determine is good for their company. They also have the right to require certain concessions be made by the retailer carrying their wares. The retailer also has the right to not agree to those terms, and refuse to stock Oliva's product. If what the OP said is true, Matt's Cigars got caught violating a legal contract multiple times and got slapped on the wrist for it. This was dishonest business practice and should be discouraged. If a company is willing to defraud a company as large as Oliva, how honest do you believe they will be in their dealings with you as a customer. I as a customer will be thinking twice about purchasing anything from Mike's Cigars in the future.


(FYI - in a communist system, the state would own both the cigar manufacturer *and* the retail outlet, and the employees would receive whatever money the government felt like doling out to them)

Originally Posted by jaymz

What is good for the consumer and the economy is that companies obey the contractual agreements that they are legally bound by. In a capitalist system, Oliva has the right to sell their products at the price they determine is good for their company. They also have the right to require certain concessions be made by the retailer carrying their wares. The retailer also has the right to not agree to those terms, and refuse to stock Oliva's product. If what the OP said is true, Matt's Cigars got caught violating a legal contract multiple times and got slapped on the wrist for it. This was dishonest business practice and should be discouraged. If a company is willing to defraud a company as large as Oliva, how honest do you believe they will be in their dealings with you as a customer. I as a customer will be thinking twice about purchasing anything from Mike's Cigars in the future.


(FYI - in a communist system, the state would own both the cigar manufacturer *and* the retail outlet, and the employees would receive whatever money the government felt like doling out to them)

What I was saying just much better. Well said. People seem to have forgotten what free market is and that our nation was once the place where it happened.

[SeanGAR]

Originally Posted by jaymz

(FYI - in a communist system, the state would own both the cigar manufacturer *and* the retail outlet, and the employees would receive whatever money the government felt like doling out to them)

Prices are fixed in communist and socialist systems. They are not in a free market. Your comment about who owns the store and what employees are paid is irrelevant.

I'm still waiting for a copy of Mike's contract with Olivia.

[rrplasencia]

[quote=jaymz;259321]dishonest business practice and should be discouraged. If a company is willing to defraud a company as large as Oliva, how honest do you believe they will be in their dealings with you as a customer. I as a customer will be thinking twice about purchasing anything from Mike's Cigars in the future.
[quote]

I've dealt with mikes on a wholesale level. Sometimes what goes around comes around. I've had direct dealing with Miami Cigar and Fuente Newman. Both ask you to sell their cigars at their suggested msrp, which is extremely fair price(Padron does the same). You don't have to do it, but then you don't have to become one of their retailers. That is a free market. There are plenty of other cigars i could have carried (especially in Miami) but i wanted those, ergo i agreed to the terms.

[Texan in Mexico]

Spot on Ian, it is very difficult for most of us to remove the emotional aspect of this argument however your point is the key to all of this.

Ladies and gentlemen this is whatis at the core of the risk the local B&Ms face these days.

Try running a business with the associated overhead and pay 20 to 40% in taxes vs the guy who doesn't incur the same fixed costs and is immune to the taxes, this is not the invisible hand of economics at work here, this is the 800 lb gorilla sitting in the living room...

Originally Posted by BengalMan

Guys, your not understanding the fact of state OTP. This is the reason that there is a huge price difference. Take Michigan for example. The state OTP is 32% (there are PLENTY of states that it's higher, much higher). So if a shop buys a box for $100, they immediately at the end of the month, are into the state for $32. So if they keystone the box to $200 (which would be msrp of said box), add the tax, the box is $232 per box. It's impossible for a retailer to go in the hole $32, then take another 10% off MSRP to compete with a major online retailer. Online retailers are for the most part in non-tax states like FL. If they are in a taxed state, they can get around paying the tax if they ship the box out of state, which most of them do. The price difference you see from online shops to local B&M's is due to your home state's legislature, plain and simple. Sure there may be a gouger here and there, but the main price difference is from the state's OTP.

And Sean, please don't just key Oliva as the bad guy, you'd be surprised how many of your favorite cigar manufacturers do the exact same thing in price protecting their brand. I have yet to have a shop in my territory complain to me, or any other rep I know that work for other manufacturers that this is done. Infact, it's just the opposite. Retailers are happy that measures like this are taken by manufactuers to help keep the business coming in.

I will say this though, if you had to pay your states tax on purchases that you bought online and had shipped to you, I think a lot of thoughts may change. It's already happening in small doses, and is a reality in the future. State's see that they're losing tax dollars due to online sales and there is a union of states that have begun getting records and collecting said taxes.

Listen, like I said, I don't know the details of the Mike's situation and it's not my place to comment on it. In the end, some of you are going to support the online shops exclusively, and that's your decision. Some are going to support local B&M's where they see fit and that's their choice. Some may do both, by all means, do what you like. I'm not telling people to go into a place they don't like, or a place where they are treated inferior, or anything of the sort. All I'm saying is if your local B&M is a nice guy, sells a quality product, and provides a service that applies to you, throw him a bone every once in a while. If not, it's your money, and if your going to shop online, there's nothing I can say to stop you.

I'm really busy for the next few days so I doubt I'll be able to check the thread. In the end, I really do acknowledge everyone's opinion's on here and will definitely make note of them, both positive and negative, and bring attention to it to the powers above me so that your opinions are heard. The cigar message boards are a great way for the manufacturers and end users to stay in a two way communication.

[Volusianator]

I'm just amazed how many people here are anti-B&M.

Originally Posted by Volusianator

I'm just amazed how many people here are anti-B&M.

I don't think its "Anti-B&M".

I for one just need a good reason to support any business, smoke shops are no different than groceries, cars or furniture. Price is always considered but not always the determining factor.

I bought my last car from a dealer who offered me value for the added price over dealer "A".

Chas

[Raralith]

Originally Posted by ChasDen

I don't think its "Anti-B&M".

I for one just need a good reason to support any business, smoke shops are no different than groceries, cars or furniture. Price is always considered but not always the determining factor.

I bought my last car from a dealer who offered me value for the added price over dealer "A".

Chas

Exactly. I rarely buy from B&M's, and one of the reasons why is not just price, but what any business has to offer. I never understood why most B&M's try to focus on the price point of their product when you can easily and readily get it over the internet. This is an uphill battle, and one you probably will not win. What gets customers in is that extra service, that something unique that you can't get anywhere else. If one of my local B&M's had scotch, a tip jar, and decent prices, I would be there at least 3 times a week. But instead they have no booze, and the prices are outragous, even with our already high state tabacoo taxes. Volt made a good list, and if a B&M near me had these, I wouldn't mind being a patron there. But most B&M's don't, and instead of improving service, I meet owners and employees that grumble, give me the stink eye, and be general snobs and asses. If you work at a B&M or know a B&M that has these traits, don't blame the customer base for not going to you, blame yourselves for not providing the right services.

[Volt]

Originally Posted by Volusianator

I'm just amazed how many people here are anti-B&M.

Wade, I think I read in one of your posts that you may work at a B&M, and I know FFF spends time at one. I can't say I hate them, just have no use for one in my world as they stand in my area. As a business/business model they don't offer me any service other than a quick cigar pick up that I can use. While I have had some issues with treatment, it was not the norm.

On the other hand, it is the business's responsibility to know and provide what the customer base wants, other wise why be in business? One example, most people want fast, cheap, clean shopping, Walmart provides that to the masses that have those needs. Most likely if there was a B&M that provided what I thought would make a good one, I would frequent it.

I am a bit amazed as you have indicated that so many others are not as happy as well for what ever reason with B&Ms. Sort of thought I was in the minority at first. A lot of people here definitely don't seem to be happy with what's available to them in their areas. Threads like this are good IMO. People who work in the industry can see what trend, feelings, etc may be out there and react to it.

My perfect B&M :

1. Allow bourbon, either club style with my name on the bottle or sell it. ABC rules being what they are, maybe not a possibility, but a few here have mentioned drinks in their B&Ms.
2. A price I can afford to buy your stock. I'll pay more for perceived value.
3. Good chow at the B&M or walking distance near by.
4. No wet cigars.
5. Be knowledgeable about your stock/hobby for I am not.
6. Be like Hooters - Be happy I came to your establishment, dump the elitist or snoby rich hobby attitudes.
7. We have good manners here and can teach others. Allow outside smokes, we're still gonna buy from you. Support Herfing. I give someone a Oliva G, they like it, walk over to the counter and buy 3 more. Win - Win.

Maybe a dream list, but for me this would be a B&M to visit.

Originally Posted by Volt

Maybe a dream list, but for me this would be a B&M to visit.

You forgot the strippers.

[Volt]

Originally Posted by ronhoffman2

You forgot the strippers.

I am "trying" to keep my cost down

But if you insist, they are ok with me. i don't mind helping the college girls pay a little tuition.

[Volusianator]

Originally Posted by Volt

My perfect B&M :

1. Allow bourbon, either club style with my name on the bottle or sell it. ABC rules being what they are, maybe not a possibility, but a few here have mentioned drinks in their B&Ms.
2. A price I can afford to buy your stock. I'll pay more for perceived value.
3. Good chow at the B&M or walking distance near by.
4. No wet cigars.
5. Be knowledgeable about your stock/hobby for I am not.
6. Be like Hooters - Be happy I came to your establishment, dump the elitist or snoby rich hobby attitudes.
7. We have good manners here and can teach others. Allow outside smokes, we're still gonna buy from you. Support Herfing. I give someone a Oliva G, they like it, walk over to the counter and buy 3 more. Win - Win.

Maybe a dream list, but for me this would be a B&M to visit.

Yeah, I work a day a week at a cigar shop 40 miles from my home, although honestly, that's really not the driving force behind my thoughts on the process. I don't think your list above is at all a "dream" as it surprises me that all are not that way. Other than we don't do food nor allow food carry ins, we do have a great number of restaurants very close by. We DO allow carry in cigars and will never change that policy.

1) we have a very well stocked bar of beer and alcohol
2) No doubt we're more expensive than the internet, but state taxes suck, we all know that. Nor can we buy at their volume.
3) Already covered above.
4) Our humidor is ALWAYS between 64-70%
5) We all are, very much so.
6) Our lounge is very laid back yet comfortable. We have several rooms to accommodate different groups, HDTV, DVD players, music, and microwave for our customers. My customers are college kids, traveling business men/women, tourists, and of course a large contingency of regulars.
7) You're always welcome to bring in your own smokes and banter back and forth with other guests. We do appreciate a purchase in our store before you leave as well, for if everyone just smoked what they brought in, we couldn't pay the bills and the doors would close for good. Then we lose that great atmosphere that we've provided for our guests.

I'm truly sorry that some of you don't have great B&M's that are local for you. We're the only one within 50 miles of us, yet have several in Milwaukee that we go to regularly just to bring a bunch of guys and have a herf and spread the wealth around a bit. B&M's are also very active in WI in fighting statewide no smoking bans.

I think there is another element to this discussion that has not really been touched upon yet. We cannot directly compare the tobacco industry and it's business models to others. Stereo speakers, watches, and other consumer products all go to market in similar ways, but they do not have the added pressure of direct government regulations and laws trying to stifle the use of their products, or the extra "sin taxes" being thrown at them from all directions. Outside forces are trying to reduce the use of a legal product, and are also taking advantage of a smaller less popular industry with added taxes. In Pittsburgh we are fortunate to have a few very good B&M's. For those of you who do not have the opportunity to frequent a top notch B&M, it's too bad. They are still part of the life line of this industry. Sure, there are good ones and bad ones, and they will thrive or fail with market forces, but to discount the viability of their presence in the industry is short sighted. We collectively need to do everything we can to support all facets of this industry, because eventually there may be nothing left. They are a physical presence of our right to smoke a legal product. There are places trying to prohibit smoking outdoors. Where will it end. I am not promoting shopping at shi$$y B&M's, but I am saying we need to help keep the good ones flourishing. They are the last stand in some states for having a place to smoke in public with other BOTL's. Now, as to the B&M's themselves, many of them also need to get their sh$t together and take a little pride in what they are doing, because we need them.

[MiamiE]

I know there are a lot of B&M owners on here, but as a consumer I am out to get the best deals and for the most part B&M's do not provide better deals than the internet retailers. Times are tough for everyone.