Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Gophernut

Doing a bit of reading on this topic today I have a couple of things that sort of stuck out for me. To those who are defending the Saints, didn't Payton already admit wrongdoing? I am quite sure that his statement on March 6 where he acknowledged that the bounty program existed and that he would make sure that he never be involved with it again is an admission of guilt. Having said that, the penalty seems to me to make sense. The 2nd is that it seems to me that this is as much about lying about it originally than it is about any specific injury that may or may not have happened because of the bounty program. Now whether or not a bounty program exists on other teams, or has existed is still up for debate. The fact that it existed here, to me, isn't about the salary cap, or the dollar amounts it's more about the motivation to make the big hit. I do just fine at work, but if I win a measly little office pool for $5 bucks, I get more satisfaction from that then I do my weekly paycheck. So the motivation for me to win the office pool is almost greater than what drives me to perform my job. I hope I'm saying that so it makes sense to people. I certainly enjoy the $5 bucks more. So even though these players all do really well, I can see it motivating them to get the payoff in front of their teammates.

Although I'm sure I'm viewed as one who's defending their actions, I'm not. I simply think that the perception, whether real or not, is that this was about attempting to injure other players. Personally, circumventing the salary cap with a, "bounty" system being funded by entities outside the organization and the (attempted) coverup is the real issue.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Personally, circumventing the salary cap with a, "bounty" system being funded by entities outside the organization and the (attempted) coverup is the real issue.

See, I don't see the bounty program as anything more than an office pool.
I think the issue is putting the league at risk for litigation. They're in the midst of fighting off these concussion lawsuits and this "bounty program" coming to light very much damages any shred of credibility they may have put together in their defense.

On another front, I heard this thing all blew up when Farve got carted off the field while he played for Minnesota. I didn't catch who the player was that made the hit, but that player was overheard saying "get me my money" or something to that effect, wanting his bounty money.
Did you hear that story?

[Starscream]

Originally Posted by shilala

See, I don't see the bounty program as anything more than an office pool.
I think the issue is putting the league at risk for litigation. They're in the midst of fighting off these concussion lawsuits and this "bounty program" coming to light very much damages any shred of credibility they may have put together in their defense.

On another front, I heard this thing all blew up when Farve got carted off the field while he played for Minnesota. I didn't catch who the player was that made the hit, but that player was overheard saying "get me my money" or something to that effect, wanting his bounty money.
Did you hear that story?

I remember before that playoff game that there was a reported bounty out for Favre. I don't remember the in-game comments from players. After all that's come out the last few weeks, I certainly believe you though, Scott.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Starscream

I remember before that playoff game that there was a reported bounty out for Favre. I don't remember the in-game comments from players. After all that's come out the last few weeks, I certainly believe you though, Scott.

This thing turned into a 1700 page report, Andy. Maybe someone read that from the report and reported on it? I wish I'd have been paying closer attention.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by shilala

See, I don't see the bounty program as anything more than an office pool.

But the NFL, and rightfully so, views it as a circumvention of the salary cap. Further, outside entities helped fund these, "bounty" programs. Outside money influencing play on the field is a huge no-no in sports.

Originally Posted by shilala

I think the issue is putting the league at risk for litigation. They're in the midst of fighting off these concussion lawsuits and this "bounty program" coming to light very much damages any shred of credibility they may have put together in their defense.

Court of opinion, sure. Court of law? I have my doubts.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by Stephen

But the NFL, and rightfully so, views it as a circumvention of the salary cap. Further, outside entities helped fund these, "bounty" programs. Outside money influencing play on the field is a huge no-no in sports.

I understand that position, and it's a tool they have to use. We're talking pool money of $50,000, $1,000 for a hit that runs a player off the field, $1500 for a cart off. That's dinner money for these guys.
They can call it circumvention, because it is. Regardless, it's chickensh1t. It's a claim that'll stick, and it serves their higher purpose without making it look like they're covering their ass, which is what it is.
I'm not at all saying that the NFL is wrong in any of their actions here, I just have an affinity for getting down to the truth of the matter.
As far as my assertion about a court of law, Payton may not have any recourse in this whatever, including a court of law. I would think that the NFL has covered their ass so far as handing out punishments, making sure they're held harmless by contract.
I do think Payton got his due, I just wish their was a way that the fans don't have to suffer this. They're the ones paying the bill, and the ones who ultimately pay the most by watching their team become dismantled.

[yourchoice]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Although I'm sure I'm viewed as one who's defending their actions, I'm not. I simply think that the perception, whether real or not, is that this was about attempting to injure other players. Personally, circumventing the salary cap with a, "bounty" system being funded by entities outside the organization and the (attempted) coverup is the real issue.

I disagree. I think the bigger issue for the NFL (and for me, personally) was the intent to injure and the fact there was an award for doing so. Like Scott alluded, the NFL doesn't want the liability. And the amount of money involved was peanuts, relative to salaries.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by yourchoice

I disagree. I think the bigger issue for the NFL (and for me, personally) was the intent to injure

Which is being ridiculously overblown, IMO. With a three year ongoing investigation, isn't it safe to deduct that the League would've taken a particular interest into the Saints play on the field?

Originally Posted by yourchoice

and the fact there was an award for doing so. Like Scott alluded, the NFL doesn't want the liability. And the amount of money involved was peanuts, relative to salaries.

And that was money rewarded for performance on the field, which was paid, "under the table" which in turn is a direct circumvention of the salary cap.

[shilala]

The way this penalty phase sits now, it's got the teeth to absolutely gut the Saints next year. Losing the head coach, money, and draft picks (which makes absolutely no sense to me) should be sufficient punishment. It definitely sends the desired message, and it's likely to cost the Saints a number of games next year and a shot at the playoffs.
Now if Goodell starts suspending players, I can't see why their (bounty program) participation is less damning than Payton's knowledge of it. They certainly knew that they shouldn't be doing it and it had to have been communicated to them that they'd been told to quit.
So now we suspend almost the entire Saints defense for a year? That seems like an equal punishment.
Right now Goodell is playing the fear game, and he's playing it well. On appeal I see this being pared back dramatically. I doubt that Payton is able to appeal via the CBA as he's not a member, but in a court of law he wins easily. There's no precedent, no rules in place, and the Commissioner can dole out punishment at whim. That wouldn't likely stand up if it's tried.

I'm not sure where I sit on the punishment. I think it should be huge, but I don't think it should cripple the franchise's ability to compete. I completely disagree with the draft picks being taken away. I agree with the coach and GM's suspensions. I don't think they're excessive. The $500,000 is a pittance.
Maybe let Payton coach and fine him the $7,000,000 he'd have made this year and donate it to a player's injury fund to pay for health care for uninsured/injured players and so forth? Same with the GM, let the team buy him back by donating his salary.

I don't think crippling the team's ability to compete is the answer, although I agree that my angle won't likely make an impact because millions of dollars is nothing to many ball clubs. I don't envy Goodell's position, and he's been very effective at handling problems in the past. I'm sure he's thought of every angle, surrounded by a team of lawyers.

[shilala]

Warren Sapp claimed that Jeremy Shockey blew the whistle back in '09. The NFL did an investigation and didn't find enough evidence, my guess is that's when the Saints were told to cut the sh1t.

[OLS]

This is nothing more than NFL PR aiming to get out ahead of any possible litigation. The Saints do not deserve
anything LIKE this, at least nothing that the entire league is not subject to. Losing DRAFT PICKS?? Come on.
This punishment is just like everything Goodell does, OVER THE TOP. I am not saying it is not his right, I am not
saying the league doesn't NEED to be reined in at every corner, I am saying that I do not like it, I don't think it's
all that fair, and I will not be watching NFL football in 2012.

[yourchoice]

The more you hear, the worse the Saints and their staff seem. Lying to the Commissioner's office, and "getting their stories straight". What a mess. It's no wonder Goodell came down so hard.

[Gophernut]

Originally Posted by yourchoice

Steve, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story!

Originally Posted by yourchoice

The more you hear, the worse the Saints and their staff seem. Lying to the Commissioner's office, and "getting their stories straight". What a mess. It's no wonder Goodell came down so hard.

That's what my thoughts boil down to as well. If they hadn't tried the cover up, there is no way the suspensions are anywhere near as harsh as they are. The fact that they were warned and decided to keep the program in place, and try to keep it in-house was pretty reckless in my opinion. As it takes is one free agent who didn't get re-signed and wants to run his mouth about something and here we are. I know people are saying it's Shockey who blew the whistle, but that was 3 years ago. If they had stopped the program right then and there, I don't think anything happens to them.

[Mikey202]

What? I thought my Steelers were the dirties , non- ethical, low down dirtiest, players in NFL history?

[smitty81]

Originally Posted by Mikey202

What? I thought my Steelers were the dirties , non- ethical, low down dirtiest, players in NFL history?

And here I thought it was the Raiders.
The Raiders Vs. Broncos game last year did set the record for the most penalties in one game after all.

[chippewastud79]

Originally Posted by smitty81

And here I thought it was the Raiders.
The Raiders Vs. Broncos game last year did set the record for the most penalties in one game after all.

If I recall correctly, The Raiders v. Broncos game was mostly false starts and holding with 2 or 3 personal fouls mixed in.



Why is there a picture of Brian Cushing from the Texans?

[jledou]

Originally Posted by smitty81

And here I thought it was the Raiders.

Hey! dem dare Raiders are some class acts

[OLS]

I guess I was a little pre-mature in trying to stick up for the Saints as being just like every other team.
I still believe that to be the case, but I heard some more sound bites from Roger Goodhead, er Goodell where
he claims there was a letter and a poster sent to post in the locker room that specifically used the word bounty
and prohibited any behavior of that kind. I guess this could actually be true. Kind of like you being the company
poarno downloader and a memo comes out that seems to be for everybody, but it really to cover the companies a55
when they come after YOU. If it is true, then the Saints are getting what is coming to them. If there was a coverup
attempt, that to is unjustifiable. On to the Warren Sapp accusations, I like Warren much more as a commentator that
I ever did as a player, I think he is a little bi+(h, or a big one rather. But do I believe that the rat could be Jeremy
Shockey, you bet I do. Sounds exactly like him. Does it matter??? Hardly. But snitch is a word I associate with
drug dealers and community thugs, so I will use rat, lol. And as for the NFL, I think I will join Shaun Payton and take a
year off. Until they agree to pay for all the brain damage they caused, and do something about these GIANT men they
help create that die early due to diabetes complications, I think I will spend Sunday doing yard work.

[NCRadioMan]

And the Saints go marching on............. http://espn.go.com/new-york/story/_/...hes-home-games

NEW ORLEANS -- The U.S. Attorney's Office in the Eastern District of Louisiana was told Friday that New Orleans Saints general manager Mickey Loomis had an electronic device in his Superdome suite that had been secretly re-wired to enable him to eavesdrop on visiting coaching staffs for nearly three NFL seasons, "Outside the Lines" has learned.

Mickey Loomis has been the Saints' general manager since 2002.
Sources familiar with Saints game-day operations told "Outside the Lines" that Loomis, who faces an eight-game suspension from the NFL for his role in the recent bounty scandal, had the ability to secretly listen for most of the 2002 season, his first as general manager of the Saints, and all of the 2003 and 2004 seasons. The sources spoke with "Outside the Lines" under the condition of anonymity because of fear of reprisals from members of the Saints organization..................

Gotta love federal crime level wiretapping.

[yourchoice]

Originally Posted by NCRadioMan

And the Saints go marching on............. http://espn.go.com/new-york/story/_/...hes-home-games



Gotta love federal crime level wiretapping.

Crazy!