What is a very good Espresso machine
 

My LOML is a Cappuccino fanatic. She's wanting a very nice machine. Nothing over 500 or so. It'll be her X-Mas gift so I have to start planning now. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

i don't want to be a smart-ass, but you answered your own question: 'Nothing over 500'.

The Rancilio Silvia starts at about $600 new, and then you still need a good burr grinder.

The Silvia can make good espresso shots, but it will not be as consistent as a machine with a heat exchanger group head. I upgraded from the Rancilio to a Nuova Simonelli Ocar, and the espresso is much better, and easier to get right. Oscars sell for a little under $1000.

Hope I didn't bum you out, but I don't want to see you waste you money on stuff that doesn't get the job done.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Bought my wife a Krups at Bed, Bath & Beyond about six months ago and she is loving it. It ran about $ 250. She wears it out daily!!

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

I have to add that while the Krups machines are labeled as espresso machines, they're not really producing espresso. It does make a good cup of coffee if you are consistent with how you make it, but all you're really ending up with is a strong cup of coffee, not espresso.

That being said, if you enjoy it, and it works for you, go for it...

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Yeah.

It's hard not to be a buzzkill but good home espresso necessarily starts with a good grinder. A good espresso grinder, these days, begins around Rancilio Rocky territory or 350 American clams. Add to that the requisite tamper, knockbox, frothing pitcher(s), espresso/cappuccino demis and a brace of 2-oz shot glasses and that doesn't leave any scratch for an espresso machine and two pounds of Intelligensia Black Cat to practice on. Damn it, Jim! I'm a doctor not a coffee economist!

Most people start with 2nd tier gear and slowly shovel it out into the garage; a few get the bug and budget-upgrade (over and over). Geniuses (both of them) bought a great grinder and then, long after, decided a great home espresso machine was still a good idea. Good home espresso is a very expensive indulgence, whereas, excellent home coffee is not necessarily insanely expensive. If you wanna do someone you love a real favor, get the best grinder you can afford. Plus a 3-cup Bialetti mokapot. The grinder will perform for a lifetime of great coffee from drip to espresso. If the mokapot gets boring after a year or two or three (mine NEVER get boring, by the way), that leaves the door open for an espresso maker down the road. I swing with the Swampper here, 100%. The 600-clam Silvia is the least you'd want if you REALLY want home espresso to do you proud. Even at that, the nutjobs who care end up modding Silvias like some kind of Mars spacecraft...

Basically, there are fake espresso makers, cheap espresso makers and good espresso makers. The good ones are not cheap and the cheap ones are not good. The fake ones, however, ARE fake.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

I found with expresso equipment, if you don't do it right the first time, you will by the third or 4th try and have dumped more money than you needed to.

I'd love a Mazzer grinder and an Oscar machine, but do very nicely with a Baby Gaggia and a Gaggia MDF grinder and got the whole setup from Wholelattelove for somewhere around the price you are mentioning, maybe a little more.

i love the Baby Gaggia machine but can see a mazzer grinder in my future, in fact I am comparing prices now and am thinking of putting the MDF grinder up for sale or trade.

I agree the Silvia is a great machine and the bare minimum as far as quality goes , but somehow wound up with a Gaggia and don't regret it at all and pull great shots from it every day. In my narrow mind, it is a quality machine.

Speaking of expresso machines, I noticed something funny recently in little Havana, Miami.

Most of the little cafes have very modest decorations and tables and chairs, but i don't think I saw ONE that didn't have a Mazzer grinder and a Rancillio commercial expresso machine and many a really fancy orange juice squeezer.

Toss in the cigars down there, and it seemed as though they have thier priorities in order.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

I have a the Rancilio Rock/Silva set and that will keep you loving the setup for several years. I am ready for an upgrade after owning this for about a decade.

Take a look in Craigslist. I have seen several nice setup's go for 50% off of what a new one would go for. Just the other day I saw a Rocky grinder go for $200ish. Sure they are used, but a nice setup should last a long time, and they are fairly easily repaired if you ever do need to fix it. A gasket on the group head and thermometer is all I have replaced in 10 years! Both are easy do-it-yourself repairs.

Certainly an espresso machine setup is not cheap, but it's not cheap in Italy or Switzerland either; just the name of the game.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Just to add.. I totally think that if you want a good setup and are a little short on budget, the refurbished stuff from WLL is better than buying new crappy stuff.

I was told that they totally strip the machines and replace all parts that are worn as well as warranty them.

Not sure if it's as good as new, but my grinder has performed flawlessly for 2 years now, as has my Gaggia.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

I have a Breville Caferoma I use it several times a day for the past three years.
I paid around 250.00 great machine. :tu

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Good luck, guy. From your $500 starting point you now have rock solid recommendations from honest brothers for going grinder, going high, going low and going rebuilt in the middle. :tu My take is, we're all right (for different reasons).

(Get the grinder and the moka pot.)

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Brikkas are more fun and less work than regular old mokapots. Mukkas look great, too, and although I've never tried one the videos I've seen look pretty sweet. Consider getting her one of those two (or both!) and an Aeropress.

However, if you drop the cash for good equipment and she gets neurotic enough to make real espresso well, you should be in for a serious treat! Barista at home! :D

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

I love my breville and you can often find deals on them I got mine for about 370 usually goes for about 600. And capresso makes a great burr grinder for about 100 bucks.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

I have the same set up and I'm loving it.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Bill, I really like my KitchenAid Espresso/Cappi machine. It's all manual operation, so you have to be good to get it right. Mine was about $750 with another $250 in the KitchenAid grinder. You might be able to find them used for the budget you are looking for. I don't use my machine as often as I'd like, but I use the grinder every day.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

+1 on the Rancilio Silvia. It's the cheapest actual espresso machine you can buy. The rest aren't the real thing; they're missing stuffs. However the Solis Maestro will do the espresso grinding job pretty damn decently for $100 reconditioned, $150 new.

For *really* cheap, though it's more like the output of the lesser espresso machines and technically it's espresso strength coffee, I recommend the Aerobie Aeropress very highly.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Yeah, and the way I was grinding a half-pound a day for my habits, that Capresso was dead by the third month. New burrs were nearly as expensive as the machine was.


I bought a used Mazzer Mini from a local coffee shop for $150. It needed a rewiring job (they did SOMETHING to rip off the power cord SOMEHOW) and new burrs, which cost me about $70 bucks shipped.

Given the manufacturing date is sometime 2008, I expect to get, at minimum, a thousand pounds out of this thing before it lets go for good. :)


Moral of the story is check with your local coffee shop. If you're in real close, they may even buy one and sell it to you at cost (for them Mini's run about $450 I was told).

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Still waiting for my Oscar to arrive but my Baratza Vario arrived with all my espresso toys. I looked at all the usual suspects for a grinder, madcap, mini mazzer, compak k3 and the 24" tall super jolly. The Vario beats all the grinders except for the jolly in blind espresso tasting and it comes in just behind or tying the jolly. It may also be able to switch back and forth from espresso grind to the extreme of press grind with little effort to find the sweet spot returning to espresso, which means 1 grinder on the counter instead of 2. If I have to go with 2 it looks very at home sitting next to the Baratza Virtuoso. The Vario is not stepless but does allow 10 macro grind changes with 22 micro steps of each macro setting. Compared to the Virtuoso it is amazing, I have been over caffeinated dialing in grind for my moka pots, instead of 1 click coarser or finer taking me out of the sweet spot with the virtuoso there are 22 increments at least to play with.

Bored with a moka pot, 20 years of using them and I am still getting more out of the darn things. I have to agree with Mr Moo 100% on grinders, you can't have great coffee without a great grinder. :wo

Edit: Oh yeah...Oscar, Vario, espresso toys $1500... Look on my wife's face, priceless until I realized it was murder in her eyes.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

The Mazzer Mini are up to $599 for new. That probably translates into the $550 range with a phone call but if you just go to amazon expect to pay over $650.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Humidor Minister? This is Houston. Come in.

Have you made a move yet or have we left you more confused than ever? :D

I've read it all in this thread and here's my consolidation opinion: if you want to make great cappuccinos for $500 you are shopping hard for used equipment which means you need a mechanics eye to fixing a few things.

a. Silvia IS the first real* espresso machine mentioned for around $600;
b. a $30 AeroPress DOES make a cappuccino-passable brew;
c. a $20 mokapot will produce cappa-passable brew with practice;
d. you gotta have a grinder ($150 to $600); or
e. limit yourself to commercial preground cans (not the greatest but no up front money for grinder); but
f. without the Silvia you need a way to froth milk which means -
i. you need a plunger-frother (cheap but not hardly the real deal), or
ii. you need a stovetop frother mokapot with steam wand (Bellman style**)

Seriously... making a "real" good cappuccino at home is a labor of love and it ain't cheap to play. The combination of a steam-powered stovetop frother (say $50), mokapot or AeroPress ($30) and a low-end burr grinder (which is fine for AeroPress or mokapot - $130) isn't too pricey for very good quality. If you wanna make a not-too-shabby cappa at home with the press and the frother you'd find them OK, too, using commercial espresso pre-ground coffee - thus saving the cost of the grinder.

After the bargain route above there is the Silvia with preground commercial coffee - in your range; or the Silvia with a matching grinder - nearly double your range.

Germ'robs experiences will be interesting on this subject since he recently passed from low-tech mokapot to high-tech HX commercial-guts espresso maker with monster grinder. I am interested to hear how he'll compare a mokapot cappuccino to an Nuova Simonelli Oscar cappuccino.

*sufficient heat, 58mm basket and a three-way solenoid

** I have read very mixed reviews on the Bellman that cover the range from impossible to use to very good. I never hand my hands on one to make an honest call. I suspect it works well if you take the time to really figure it out.
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/001...jpg?1245166787

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Moo, I believe you said once that going down the path to make real espresso and frothing milk is an exercise of insanity, or something like that. I agree, but man this is some good stuff! :banger

20+ years of pretty much just using a moka pot, I love her dearly and her sisters as well. They are heart broken as they sit there and oxidize while Miss Oscar does her sexy thing. Miss Oscar is an animal, I can have friends come over and we play with her all night and she doesn't complain at all in fact she can satisfy all our needs. Maybe I am just being hard on the old lady since this fine young thing came around and I may long for the company of an old familiar, but at this point I just can't get enough. I visit Miss Oscar 3 times in the morning ( gotta get my 3rd cappa in before 10am) once or twice for a quicky after lunch and my wife joins in when she gets home from work.

Can a moka pot come close to a true espresso? NO, not even close. A moka pot is a great way to brew and should be enjoyed and figured out as exactly what it is, a moka pot.

I will say the AeroPress delivers a closer representation of an espresso taste. I will try one with some frothed milk from Miss Oscar and get back to that (Ha, it happened again, I thought about brewing a different way and it just isn't going to happen yet). The AeroPress, a microwave, and a battery hand frother should put you in the game for $50 if you have the microwave, $100 if you don't. I would not turn down a false cappa from this setup and would enjoy it as well if the beans and water are up to my standards that is.

Even if a person has money to burn and bought a great espresso machine (easily can spend $10k) if they don't know how to use their machine it is worthless. That is why there are super auto machines, they can't do it as well as a real person that knows what they are doing but they will do a good job. Now I am a complete newb to this espresso machine thing but as a roaster I am obsessed with the taste of coffee so it only natural for me to gravitate towards having my own machine. That's my story and I am sticking to it. Even as a newb I was able to get some of the local cafe's fresh beans and tune in after a few attempts the same shot the owner pulls (this is why you must have a good, no a great grinder). Frothing milk is a different story, I have practiced with 2 gallons and can only get decent foam 50% of the time and 10% of the time I can get some microfoam, so this is the hard part for me.

Something else about buying equipment at this level is the attention the good shops and the companies that make this equipment give you. They have been excellent taking their time and getting things working proper with a newb like me. N.S. is sending a smaller hole frothing tip to help with my piss poor abilities. Baratza has been working with me to re-calibrate the Vario fine grind, I am waiting to here from Kyle the designer of the Vario to get his help with tuning it just right. Kyra, the VP from Baratza just wants to send me a new one since it seems like I got one of first shipments that seems to have been calibrated for a coarser grind.

This has been a pleasure getting involved with the crazy world of espresso.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

I was thinking more along these lines. "Once your sink two ounces of good moka, good espresso or good AeroPress under 4-10 ounces of milk that has been steamed, stretched and frothed - and then, optionally, add a teaspoon or two or sugar - it all tastes like a pretty darn good cappuccino. Different, but decent." Concur or disagree?

Good luck with microfoam. The Oscar steamer scared the snork out of me for about a week. A couple of gallons later things come together like the hot kiss at the end of a wet fist - small pitcher half full, 10-15 seconds, smooth like silk, do it with your eyes closed.

http://www.josephklevenefineartltd.c...DreamsBaby.jpg

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Now that I am not vibrating with 10 double shots I can calmly say I concur. Tomorrow morning I will fire up the 4 cupper moka you gave to me add some foam and a tid bit of the milk. To be honest I never made a cap with the moka. I really just fire up a couple of pots of the 6 cupper and pour it down my throat, the only side effect is the strange places hair grows on me.

Oscar and steam, wow, what a beast. Here is what the first few attempts of steaming 5oz of milk went like.

turn knob to flush wand, ouch, that's gonna leave a mark, turn steam off.
insert tip in pitcher, turn steam on, hold on for dear life, 6 seconds pass, ouch this is hot, drop pitcher, 175 f milk everywhere, steam from wand hitting me while trying to get pitcher, ouch as I grab the wand on the non protected metal, turn steam off. Drink double shot and try and get 2 year old to stop repeating the string of words she just heard. Start over while listening to the little angle screams profanities at the top of her lungs in the backyard. The only improvement was not dropping the pitcher the rest stayed the same till I ran out of milk. By the second gallon I wasn't burning myself at all and the hot milk didn't have skin on top. Still can't do 4 ozs but can do 6 pretty darn well and the burns have healed nicely.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

I still have periodic explosions from turning the steam wand on too strong and have to duck from the plastic piece or hot milk. Tricky business and messy cleanup that microfoam is, and there is no sound quite like the plastic piece shooting off into the metal pitcher and the scream that comes from hot milk in your eyes.

The main things I have learned are:

1. Keep everything perfectly clean and descale monthly.
2. Leave the fancy latte art to the barristas.
3. Practice makes perfect.
4. If you steam the milk first, then pull the shots. the milk settles down into a nice foam.
5. Keep a rag close to the operation.
6. Don't take it personally if your wife and kids laugh at you.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Really? Is your water that hard that you need to do this?
I choose not to use bottled water but with a brita filter that gets used only for 3 weeks before going to just drinking water my water comes down to where I should need to only descale 1 a year. A true descale cleaning is a PIA so if I had to do it 1 a month I would switch to buying softer water.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Florida water.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

So are you just running citric acid through the water reservoir till the boiler fills, flushing till you get it through the system,then letting it sit, then flushing till clean?
or
Tricking the boiler to overfill with water and citric acid and draining the boiler after it sat hot for awhile then flushing group head and wand and guts with more citric acid?

The problem with hard water and scale build up in the boiler is the scale collects above the water line so it doesn't get removed with first procedure.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Hot cappa milk has YOUR skin on top? Keep a tube of aloe vera in the kitchen. :D

Oscar steam gets easy with practice. I recall removing cooked-on spatters of boiled scalded milk from the machine, floor, counter, clothes, walls, stove, eyeglasses and ceiling. With a small pitcher for one drink I maybe use half the pressure to stretch it out to microfoam over 15-seconds; to slow time down start with steel pitcher/milk chilled, direct from fridge or freezer. If you don't bother with a thermometer figure when the pitcher becomes too hot to hold barehanded you've hit about 130*F - time is getting short when you can't barehand the pitcher, right? And your nose tells the rest.

I pull an electrical lead on mine when descaling and, after soaking, pump what little crud there is out thru the wand. I have well water and a 5-mic filter - tastes great and doesn't leave much in the boiler during 1/annual descale. DO remove the tip before pumping the boiler out that way.

DO change the dispersion screen screw out with a phillips, torx or (preferably) allen drive machine screw and DEFINITELY clean the screen and brass heat sink regularly or you will have bitter/skunky espresso. Treat the dispersion screw threads with a light swipe of Vaseline before reinstalling it and only loosen it when the machine is cold. Backflush slowly/regularly with a spoonful or Urnex in the blank basket.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Not my skin, I don't think it was, but the skin milk gets when burned.

I have the whole aloe vera plant in my kitchen. I have a knack for burning myself so I cut some off and tape it on the burn(s) as needed.

Thanks for the info on the dispersion screen. :tu Is not taking the screw out hot for me or is it bad for the threads?
I tried some water out of the group head after a bunch of shots where pulled and the machine had sat for a while, very nasty stuff and brown. I like to backflush after shots if I know I won't be having another for a while, it is amazing what flows out each time. How often do you backflush with detergent?

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Heat and accumulated grunge will cause the dispersion screen screw to get very snug; it's easy (well, easier) to remove when cold and, if hot, it's no trick to strip the screw slot (which you totally don't want to do). Be sure to use a properly sized screwdriver that fills the slot without sloppiness or you will strip the slot; way better to replace with a phillips, torx or allen machine screw BEFORE the catastrophe.

Backflush: start with a hot machine. Add a teaspoon or so of CleanCaf, Urnex (whatever floats your boat) and some hot water to the PF with a blank basket and stir it up for a few seconds as if to dissolve some of it. Keeping the basket rim clean and level, seat it firmly in the grouphead. Take out the drip pan grate and then hit the brew button "ON" until the pump goes quiet then "OFF". Repeat the process a few times until you're satisfied the Urnex and water have worked all the way thru the solenoid and are draining into the drip pan. Let it sit for a few hours then do the ON/OFF thing a few more times until it drains clean. Remove the pf from the grouphead, wash it off and repeat without the Urnex until nothing but clean water is showing in the drip pan as you cycle the brew pump "ON" and "OFF".

Oscar note: if you run brew water and do the "portafilter wiggle" back and forth from loose to snug (to rinse grounds off) you may end up seizing the pf into the grouphead. Doing the wiggle can force water under the grouphead gasket, and, later, make it very had to free up a snugged pf without a lot of muscle. Run brew water over a pf to clean it or heat it up but don't lock- or gently snug it into the grouphead while the pump is on.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Great info. I unscrew the screen regularly and clean but was warned to NEVER backflush a Gaggia, so I haven't tried.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

You have a baby correct? I know the new ones have a 3-way solenoid valve so you can backflush but that may something new.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

My Gaggia has the 3 way solenoid but they insist it will kill the pump if you backflush. Not sure, but not taking any chances.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

I do remember someone asking this at CG and there gaggia saying not to backflush yet they include backflush cleaner in the new shipments. I will keep my eyes open for more info and get it to you if I find it. :tu

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

This is from sweet maria's..."The 3-Way Valve: this does cost more. Do you need a 3-way valve to make perfect espresso? No! But it means the machine automatically releases high tank pressure so the "puck" is drier after extraction, and you can clean the machine by backflushing. Note that Gaggia USA does not officially support backflushing because it may splash hot water out the release valve into the drip tray. This is a legal concern - you can backflush but you do it at your own risk."

from their gaggia pagehttp://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.gaggia.php.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

well, if someone could explain the benefit of backflushing opposed to a good cleaning and descaling, I might try to figure it out.

I guess I am under the impression that as long as my machine is performing great, like it is, I'm leaving it alone.

Edit: Never mind, my OCD got the best of me and I just ordered a blind filter from WLL and will be backflushing.

How often is this normally done???

Last question:

I keep quite a good supply of Urnex Dezcale around. Is this the right stuff to use on a backflush??

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

After every shot some grounds and oils are staying up in your group head. The same stuff that is left behind after a shot in the cup that dries and needs a sponge to clean. I backflush after every time I am done a session, not if I am coming back in 1/2 hour but it only takes 45 minutes or less for coffee oils to go rancid and I don't want that off taste to be added to my next cup. So I will backflush 2-4 times a day with just water.

The Urnex Dezcale is not what you want to use but Urnex makes other products designed for backflushing. Not sure they are that different since I believe they all use citric acid in different proportions. Joe Glow seems to be the mildest of the detergents and I might try some of that out but right now I use Urnex tabs right now once a week, thats a lie since I have done it twice in 9 days but my second cleaning came out very clean so I jumped the gun. A shop would do it every night, a real clean freak may also do it every night but once a week will keep things clean with hot water backflushes done often.


I will post some links later on some more exact info.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

I tried saving money on making home espresso before I pulled the trigger on a real set-up. Started with a 4 Cup Brikka (because I couldn't find a 2 Cup in the US) and a Zass Knee Mill. That worked out pretty good, and I was fooling myself that I was drinking espresso for a little while. Then I found a 2 Cup Brikka, which I found to be more consistent than the 4...and worked with that, again believing I was drinking true espresso.

But dammit...this interweb thing brings so much f'n information to you that the bug was still very much alive in me, and alas I began to figure out how much I was willing to spend. I budgeted $800 for a machine and grinder. I was targeting a Silvia/Rocky set-up...but as others chimed in, the little voice in the back of my head (the same one that tells me that I never have enough cigars, regardless if I have no place to store them) had me out shopping beyond my budget. Fortunately...I had my Zass Knee Mill, so I had a grinder that would keep up with the best of them (yes...that is a true statement). I didn't know anything about machines, but I had $800 to put towards one now. Gaggia was a name on the top of the list, but then I quickly learned of Expobar and heat exchange and single vs double boilers, blah, blah, blah... Long story short, I found an unused Livia 90 Semi Auto on craigslist for $800 and it got the blessing of all who had given me advise. Pair that with the Zass...and I was up and running...so I thought. Grinding espresso by hand is no joy at all...let me tell you. Especially when your first grind is typically a sink shot. I'm real big on tradition...but this wasn't doing it for me. Patience isn't a strong suit for me. I had an unexpected settlement come through at just the right time, and I sprung for a Macap M4 Stepless grinder. At the time I think I got it shipped for somewhere in the mid $500 range.
Now...I could have some fun. Getting a good grinder is probably going to be the biggest determining factor as to whether you'll continue to make (or at least try) espresso at home, or hang it up after a few months. Seriously! Don't skimp on a grinder. It really is the biggest part of the process. I can typically nail my shots with no more than one sinker (stepless is the balls).

As far as beans...I like Black Cat, Klatch's Belle Espresso (try this NOW!!!) and the stuff I pick up at Whole Foods. I'm seriously thinking of letting both of my Brikka's go since they're decoration on top of my fridge at the moment. A Brikka is the only way to really get a real decent espresso-like stovetop brew. Other moka's are good, but different.

I'm such a mental case, that I even spent the money to have Pasquini send me the stainless drip tray for the Livia. OMG what a difference it made in appearance. After all...your works have to look good when they're just sitting there right? lol

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k1...au/Livia2A.jpg

Might I suggest checking out the Coffeegeek Forum if you haven't found it already.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Not to be argumentative, but I just read this and thought other Gaggia owners may find it interesting..

The New Baby does not have external tubes as your diagram suggests. the solenoid mounts to the group housing and has internal channels to the boiler and group (and below to drip). The solenoid on the new baby is easily clogged so the VERY minimal benefit that might be had from back flushing is not worthwhile in my opinion... I would prefer to run water forward through the group

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

In any event, I ordered the blind filter and cleaner and will try backflushing.

It takes a bit of time, but I have found great benefits from taking off the shower screen and cleaning it by hand as well as sometimes taking out the two hex bolts and removing the group head, soaking it, and really giving the whole grouphead a good cleaning that I'm not sure a backflush will achieve.

I have no idea about other machines, but after studying diagrams and getting out my tools, I am beginning to get very familiar with all the inner parts of the Gaggia.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

As rancid as espresso becomes without cleaning the dispersion screen for a month or so I "imagine" the route thru the solenoid channel becomes befouled in the same short order. Once you see backflush grunge ooze into the drip pan you'll decide you don't want it in your machine.

If Gaggia has a warning, be careful; you don't want hot acidic oils squirting into your eyeball. The Oscar has a baffle in the pan the prevents a direct squirt onto a nearby human.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

I have been looking at what folks at CG and HB have to say on the matter and well I got nothing but controversy. I think you made an important point about how easy it is to remove the group head and clean it that way and those that say not to backflush point this out. Those that say to do backflushing point out what a 3 way solenoid is, how it works, and it is cheap to replace. If Gaggia's solenoid can't handle it then it will fail by just normal use anyway. The point of the 3 way is to remove pressure after a shot is done, in other words it is backflushing oily residue and grinds. If you have ever ground to fine and chocked your machine you in essence just backflushed it again with oily gritty back flow. Every post I saw saying not to do it does not supply any real info as to why not, no diagrams, not failures (other than I backflused a few times and now I have this ___ problem). People that say to backflush with a 3 way solenoid do supply all the needed info on why, how, diagrams, etc.

I am not saying you should do this, you keep a clean machine your way and that works for you. There is a chance that since you have not done this before you might push a buildup of crude right into your solenoid and make it fail. This would suck and without a back up solenoid may keep you from liquid gold till you replace it. If you choose not to do this the cleaner you bought should work fine for all you're cleaning needs so it won't be wasted.

I would like to add that the Silvia has the same controversy with far more people saying backflushing should be done and so forth.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

I don't think many people now a days put acid in their eye balls much any more. Ohh, you mean citric acid, never mind. ;s

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

I second removing the entire group head for cleaning regularly. It gives you the opportunity to inspect all of the gaskets, and replace them if necessary rather than experiencing a failure. Planned down time is always a more positive experience than unexpected down time. I keep at least one of each gasket on hand for just that purpose. I wish I could chime in on the matter of back flushing, but I have no experience with the Gaggia's

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Lots of controversy on the subject of backflushing for sure.

One thing about the solenoid drain is the fact that the liquid is draining, NOT going into my cup, so however nasty it is, I won't be drinking it.

I'm always amazed at how much gunk comes from behind the grouphead when removed and normally soak it then brush it real good at least once a month.

Good points about keeping extra gaskets, and I should probably do that.

I ordered the stuff to backflush, so I am going to do it, but if my Gaggia dies an early death, you guys owe me an Oscar or something.;)

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

LOL, Well you may be in luck, I already have my eye on this Vivaldi 2
http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/...esso/vivaldi_2
I can dream can't I.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Nice machine.

If there was more than myself drinking expresso in my house, I might be able to justify next year's tax return, but my wife thinks my coffee is too strong and still drip brews Bustello.

Very likely an Oscar is next for me.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

So the solenoid for your machine is $66 here
http://www.espressoparts.com/categor...ld_baby_model/

not cheap but not a killer.

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

My version of shots and cigars...

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k1...au/Works-1.jpg

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Ok, back to original programing and the OP's question.

The Le'Lit PL041 is coming in highly recommended by the geeks. It is on sale now and at this price blows the competition away and leaves room to get a grinder that is up to the task.

http://www.1st-line.com/machines/hom...elit/PL041.htm

Re: What is a very good Espresso machine
 

Same in my house but she does enjoy lattes.

After popping the hood on the Oscar and seeing the quality of parts and build I would not hesitate to buy one used, I have heard some great deals on used prices.