Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machine?
 

While I think they do have some use.
Some tickets could be nitpicking, but look at the $$$ they generated at only 4 intersections... :bs
http://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/1217734.html

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

Obey the laws and no tickets are handed out, as some of our lawmen BOTL would say. Read the last paragraph. They are having the desired effect.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

:tpd: I do agree you must ALWAYS respect the law, but to say that in real life, if you manned the same sites with "the fine law enforcement officials of flesh and blood "(exchange 1 official for 1 camera) the ticket count would be even half that..
And most of the time these $$ are collected from a billing agency out side of the state.:2
And its about the $$ just as toll roads, and the coming tax per mile driven..:)

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

Yeah, I was playing lawman's advocate there, but by the same token, with all the restrained budgets and the effect that they have on manpower, you can't begrudge the city from trying something more efficient.
Same concept as when robotics starting taking over industry. You free up the person that would have had to do the same thing to do something else more worthwhile. I'd much rather have an officer available while I'm getting mugged than have him writing a ticket.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

we have a couple hundred of them here in the Chicago area, with over a hundred mor on the way.

one big problem seems to be rear end accidents caused by people last minute slamming the breaks to avoid the ticket.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

Both. They have a legitimate use, but I think that cities rely on them as an additional source of revenue, especially with budget constraints. Let me preface what I'm about to say by stating that if we all obey traffic laws, drive safely, yada, yada, yada, we don't have anything to worry about. However, that's not the reality for a lot of drivers. My biggest problem with them is that people should know somewhat instantly when they are cited for breaking a traffic law (i.e. getting pulled over by an officer), not several weeks later, because that knowledge will help alter future driving habits (fear of insurance going up, losing ones license, etc..). The sooner you know, the sooner you can adjust. That said, they do help and in California there are warning signs before intersections with these cams. Ultimately, play by the rules and you don't have anything to worry about.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

I know out in Phoenix they have the cameras on most of the overpasses for the speeders, too. I know I've waited for the mail with trepidation a couple times after seeing that flash go off. Knock on wood, either it wasn't me or they use a little discretion. :)

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

I've heard about those. These scare me even more than red light cams. Do they post warning signs or does the speed limit function as one? :) Most of the (sub)urban freeways in SoCal have 65mph speed limits, but the reality is that traffic flows around 75 to 80ish.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

There may have ben a sign or two, but like you say if you're flowing with the traffic,15 mph over the limit is not uncommon. The flash scares you more than anything else and at least gets you thinking about your speed.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

No kidding. Snaps you back to reality.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

Speed limits are capricious. I have been on the same highway when it was 55 as when it was 75. What was the difference? Same piece of asphalt. Politics. Should we be basing speed limits on politics? Not a big fan of idiot politicians myself. I consider a speeding ticket for going 81 on an interstate to be theft, pure and simple.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

don't speed, don't drive when the light is red and you won't get tickets. Speed, or run a red light and you could be ticketed. You're the one speeding or running the red light, if there is someone to blame, blame yourself.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

The problem is that there is lots of evidence that the companies that run these red light cameras will not install them on lights that have an adequate yellow time. For example:

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/...onal-trend.ars


And in one case the company was altering the yellow times to trap more motorists:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...low-lights.ars

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

I say good tool!

The truth of the matter is that's the law, like it or not.

For those that are not in agreement, you must obey the established law until it is modified by the government.

If there are sufficient reasons to modify the law it will be done through a referendum by the voting public.

That's the advantage of living in a democracy.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

6 stories is 5 years hardly qualifies as "lots of evidence", being that there are thousands of cities using the devices.

That being said, it would be naive to say that these aren't set-up, at least in part, to generate revenue. Of course they are. :2

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

That was an exaggeration. You're right and I apologize.

But there is evidence that increasing yellow times not only reduces revenue from these camera, but also reduces accidents. And that's what these cameras are all about, safety. Right? ;)

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/new...mera-contract/

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...bkyhi.asp?pg=2

http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/reports/rlcreport.asp

http://www.hwysafety.com/nma_rlc_timeline4.htm

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

Having worked on "that" side of the law, I personally think they are total BS. It first started here in my city as just red light cameras, now there are surveillance cameras on every corner in the city. They are nothing more than a money generating machine, which by all accounts isnt being used wisely anyways. My state is only a few BIL in the rears. Which will and is leading the way to even more cameras just "watching" for crime.

Where and When will it stop?
Sorry to possibly start a huge debate, but it goes beyond a lot of my personal beliefs, and possibly some constitutional ones also.

Just my 2 cents

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

I absolutely agree with you that revenue is a major factor. And also that the lights controlled by these cameras should be mandated to have a reasonable yellow time. :tu

They will still make their money from those who think yellow means "floor it", and from people who can't understand that "right on red" means after you stop, not just "slow down" or "yield". ;)

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

Well Tom, you realize that if there are 6 stories reported in 5 years then there are probably way more if you include those that were not reported. So there could easily have been 7 or possibly 8 cases in those 5 years. 7 cases ... well I call that a veritable FLOOD of cases. :r

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

What a lot of people fail to realize is there are most likely many many more, a lot of people cannot afford to miss work and such to fight a 50-100 ticket in court. Think about it, if I got one I would just pay they are a no point ticket anyways.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

Agreed that there are likely scores more that go unreported, but I was responding to the "proof" offered. :)

About 99% of the tickets I see disputed locally are for people who claim they definitely "stopped" prior to making a right on red. Of all the vidoes I have watched, I have yet to see even one where the person disputing the ticket actually did stop...and these obviously have absolutely nothing to do with yellow light times.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

Personally - I could care less on how many of them they put out there. I'm not in that much of a hurry anymore to get anywhere when I'm in town. Plus I can make it up on the interstate - :ss

Seriously though - I say put them at every light and let the idiots fund more projects. Plus - one thing I do like about them is they cut down on the idiots blocking intersections during morning and afternoon rush hours.


Ron

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

If you have had them in your city long enough, I can hardly see any of you in favor of them that are touting them. They are calibrated by the company not the city and the company generates their revenues by the amount of tickets it issues. Conflict of interest? How about where they are in the Phoenix area, they give you one speed limit sign that drops you down 10 mph. Lets say you miss it because a big rig is in the way...too bad. These camera's are set up everywhere to trap you not to make driving safe. In between them people do 100 mph then slam on their breaks.

BTW, I have never gotten one but they are annoying as hell!!!

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

I dislike the idea of cameras pointed at people without their consent.


It is a slippery slope. Look at England. There are up to 4.2 million CCTV cameras in Britain - about one for every 14 people.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6108496.stm

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

Sorry, I am going to have to call bullshit on this one. Red light cameras are nothing more then mechanical rapists with a license to take bread off of peoples tables. Objective studies done have shown that they actually INCREASE the amount of rear end colissions in an intersection.

Add to that that those cameras are actually run by corporations who take care of the matience and pictures on these things and these same corporations lobby to have the yellow light (grace period) on signals shortened so that they can rake in the dough.

The final nail in the coffin in the arguement for these things is that cities often charge MUCH more for these tickets then if you had been pulled over by a flesh and blood cop. A ticket for rolling a right on a red light is a hundred and fifty dollars in San Bernardino County, however get caught by a red light camera doing the same thing, and it will cost you five hundred dollars plus court costs and traffic school. (Which is what I had to do a little under two years ago) and there is a point on your record (if you decline or are unable or ineligable to attend traffic school)

Oh and the worst part? These things are so sensitive that they will sometimes flash you for just starting to move on a red light in the period between when the other side of the intersection is red, but your light is in the process of changing to green, and they will sometimes flash you when you are in the middle of the intersection trying to make a left in heavy traffic, and, if you are stopped, if you start too suddenly to make a right turn, AFTER you are stopped and the coast is clear... these things will sometimes flash you then as well.

Leaving you to wonder if you are going to take it up the a-s to the tune of *ANOTHER* five hundred dollar ticket for the next couple of weeks.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

I'd situated firmly in the "I'd like to see them stick their cameras up their ass" corner.
Only because I'd like to retain the right whether I choose to be videotaped or not, public or private.
I don't even really care whether I'm videotaped or not. Doesn't matter.
Sit a cop on the corner and create a job, for crying out loud. He can sit there all day and raise his kids off the fines. That I can live with. :tu

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

Very interested in seeing these studies, can you provide a link or website I can see them on? :)

Actually much cheaper here considering fees and costs, and no mark (points) on your license.

The cameras activating (flashing) doesn't mean you are guilty of an infraction, only that the video is rolling. If you pass the stop line before turning right on red, but still come to a compete stop, you will not get a ticket. Regarding left turns, if you were in the intersection (past the stop line) prior to the light turning red, you will not get a ticket for clearing the intersection and completing your turn after the light turns red.

As for the "your light is in the process of changing to green', isn't it red until it turns green? That would mean one was proceeding on a red light.

Not trying to be a nitpicker, David, just pointing out some of the factors (at least here in Illinois).

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

Cops don't get any of the fine money, Scott, they get the same salary whether they write 100 tickets or zero tickets. ;)

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

Phoenix has them on the Highways set to go off at 76 MPH, to tell you the truth I love them, now the need to have ones that can count how many you have in the car so they can ticket the people that use the car pool lane with only one person in the car.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

Our city just had these put up a few weeks ago. There are signs posted stating red light camera control enforcement, about 200 feet from the traffic light. I travel through said intersection sometimes 3 or 4 times a day. And the screetching of brakes has increased very much. Our neighborhood Walgreens is at said intersection. Each time I go there, you hear someone in the intersection slamming on their brakes. Not good in this weather either. At night, those flashes from the cameras can get distracting. If you don't realize they are there and they flash, you are going to turn your head toward the flash to see where it was coming from.

But I also agree with the fact that if one obeys the traffic law, this wouldn't be a problem. I have also noticed an influx of people turning left on yellow/red lights, in turn making the others who actually have the green light, wait. This is bull.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

Yeah, I know. That's what pisses me off. :tu
Get rid of the cameras and sit a cop on a lawn chair and we've created a job (paying his salary via tickets). I'd support that all day long and be happy to pay my fines.
We'll avoid doing anything like that though, cause it makes sense. :)

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

OK, Now you had a chance to mull this over...
But ponder this, before this was even talked about for tools(red light cameras) There was a news story here in Nashville about 10 years ago, about the city installing cameras at the enter section of Old Hickrory Blvd. and Gallatin Road for snapping pics of plates(they are on the back) if you ran the red light.. this got alot of press here, but were installed.
After they finished you could clearly see the cameras were not positioned to photo the car running the light ,but they shot pics of straight shots of facing cars through the windshield in the oncoming lanes and turning lanes..They were there for 1 or 2 years and then gone, shortly after a story shown here of a test program from the FED using facial recognition to "search for criminals" at intersections to see if they could use them to ID projected areas to target for searching or what not..
The cameras or gone,but not the mounts?:hm
AND AS ALWAYS! "Respect the law"

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

Safety and profit don't always coincide.

I think they are a wonderful way for cities to make $$$. The companies that sell, install and manage these things are good at "setting the stage" to ensure that the locations chosen generate the appropriate yield. Yield becomes the primary factor in choosing a location with safety being a secondary concern.

Only good thing, at least in OH is that the tickets are administrative vs criminal. (No driving record issues) It's the way they get around litigation and just get folks to pay.

That being said, in the places where the profit and safety motives actually coincide.. they are good deterrents. More typically, you see them in places just after speed limit changes or where there is significant need to make right turns where right on red is prohibited. Read a presentation from one of the companies showing a "yield curve" based upon the option of choosing the minimum to maximum yellow light period allowed by a state for a given location. It was twice as much $$$ by using the minimum. Guess which one the cities choose. :D

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

If I can smoke cigars in the lawn chair, I will take it for a retirement job in a warm climate. :)

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

They were here until they couldn't keep the money.


Charlotte, North Carolina Suspends Ticket Camera Program
Red light and speed cameras turned off in Charlotte, North Carolina in wake of court ruling.

The city of Charlotte, North Carolina yesterday suspended its red light camera and speed camera program in the wake of a May 16 state appeals court decision that ruled ninety percent of photo ticket proceeds had to be directed to the state school system, and not into the city's coffers and the pockets of a private vendor.

Charlotte had been paying Peek Traffic Inc. $35 out of every $50 red light citation to operate the cameras ($39 for speeding tickets). Under the court ruling, each ticket issued would cost the city $30-34. That is a price many North Carolina cities have already said they are unwilling to pay. Charlotte joins Greensboro, Greenville and High Point in shutting down their camera program.

Here is the ruling:

North Carolina Appeals Court Rules Against Red Light Cameras
Statewide Court of Appeals ruling could mean the end of red light cameras in North Carolina.

A ruling today by the North Carolina Court of Appeals threatens red light camera programs in the state. The decision upheld two lower court rulings that had required the city of High Point to direct 90 percent of photo ticket fines to the public school system. Today's ruling expands the precedent statewide, turning money-making programs into a money-losers for the cities involved.

High Point had argued that the Article IX, section 7 of the state constitution did not apply to red light camera tickets because they imposed a "penalty" not a "fine." Judge J. Douglas McCullough swept aside the word games, writing for the court, "the fact that the violation results in a civil penalty rather than a fine for an infraction is irrelevant if we are to observe the Supreme Court's admonition to consider 'the nature of the offense committed, and not in the method employed by the municipality to collect fines for commission of the offense.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

:r

Love to see someone do a little research on when they decided to install them and quote the "safety justification". :D

It's all about the companies that sell and administer the actual determination to ticket as a service and their ability to sell the cities on this as a revenue producer.

Absent the revenue no one talks about safety.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

UPDATE! They installed 4 cameras at 4 lights in Clarksville 1 month ago, and in one month, they photo'd a total of $20000.00 in fines.. It is on tv news here as the news pulled the FOIA on the city and got the totals:mad:

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

I know this is about Red Light cameras, but what about the speed cameras? especially those in construction zones? I know places that were considering them in construction zones. It would cause people to get tickets if there were speeding through construction zones regardless of time of day. For example, if there is no one working at 11PM on a Sunday, why is the speed decreased? Those fines are double due to the construction zone alone. For those of us in climates with snow, the construction on major highways is year round, every year.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

Quoted for TRUTH.

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

I have heard you can get out of these tickets if they come from cameras. In court ask to examine the accuser...:tu

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

They don't go to court in Illinois, they go to an "administrative hearing"...and the video is the "accuser". ;)

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

That'd still work.
"Now, Mr. Video, were you drinking at the time you took the footage? Mr. Video? Mr. Video? Your Honor, could you please instruct Mr. Video to answer the question?" :D

Re: Red light camera, a good tool? or profit machi
 

"Buuuuuuuuuuuurp". :)