Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

I am actually surprised that it hasn't come up with the national media. It seems like a clear correlation to me and I don't think a d-coordinator saying to his players that the object of the game plan is to hit certain players over and over and over, "put them on the bench." Hell, I think it is a solid gameplan.

I think the issues appears to be a reward for success.....

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

Football is acted out like a strategical war metaphor. I think that strategy plays right down the line, tighter and tighter, until anything goes, depending on the circumstances and players involved.
Could a rivalry or game become so intense that a player is directed or takes it upon himself to break someone's knee? Hell yeah. The player will likely feel bad about it later unless he's of James Harrison psycho ilk.
Honestly, I think kids at the high school level are far likelier to hurt someone on purpose than at the NFL level. At the NFL level there's some professional courtesy expressed or implied because there is SO much on the line. While a game-ending injury might be applauded, a career-ender would not. Guys know what kind of hits produce what type of injuries, they're certainly not stupid.
If the bounty thing is dangerous, it's far more dangerous at high school level than in the NFL, for sure.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls...whp7o1_500.jpg
Well, unless you're Michael Irvin, and it happens in Philadelphia...:gary

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...for-dirty-play
From this past season. Maybe there is something to this story. I understand that you go after the "weak link" but if you're intentionally trying to hurt a player, than it's just dirty. Don't care if you get paid for it or not. Sticker, steak, bounty, ice cream cone, whatever. You shouldn't play to do others harm.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

Who wasn't happy to see Michael Irvin gone? I rest my case. ;)

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

My opinion is that you're giving a lot of those guys way too much credit, in regards to the section I bolded. There may be some smart guys out there on the field, but I'm sure there are plenty that are probably lucky they graduated high school.

I can see where you're coming from, Scott, but I don't know that hs players necessarily have the skill (or power, for the most part...at least not your "average" hs player) to deliver an injury causing blow, unless it's something like a completely blind/cheap shot. They might actually be more likely to hurt htemselves while trying to hurt an opponenet.

Now, in regards to professional courtesy, wouldn't that honestly preclude them from actually participating in the bounty system? These guys beat their bodies up, to start with, and adding an injury that could potentially cause harm down the line just adds to that. IMO, that's not professional courtesy. And because of what's at stake ($$$$), that would seem to be something that goes to the opposite of what you're saying. The high $$$ contracts could cause a player to take those shots, with the hopes of parlaying being a "big hitter" into a big contract. I just don't think the NFL needs to add fuel to the fire by condoning bounties.

I seem to be in the minority here in the fact that I think this was a horrible practice. Just not a cool practice, IMO. Never has been, never will be. Yes, injuries will always be part of sports, but going out to cause them should not be (with the obvious exceptions of things like boxing and MMA). As someone said, if they happen during the natural course of a clean play, then so be it. We can all accept that. To me it's all about the intent.

Just meant we had to hear him talk more. :rolleyes:

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

I honestly think you and I are talking about the same thing. We're just unclear about where these "lines" are. When I mentioned "smart", I didn't mean educated. I meant that they have an excellent command of their position and all things related.
I can see where your disdain for purposely harming someone would come from, and I share it. When I step on a football field, I leave that at home. Same as any other sport, I'll compete until I can't carry my dead ass off the field. It's competition.
Injury, getting hurt and hurting the other guy is part of football. Knocking a specific player out of the game has always been, and will always be part of the strategy of the game. Disagreeing with that is fine, but it doesn't change that it's what football is. It's why we watch it. Who doesn't cringe, hoot or get a rush when a wide receiver comes over the middle, catches a ball and gets hit and does three end-over-ends before he hits the grass? The defender could have just as well let him land and wrapped him up, but that's not how the game is played. Receivers know there's a price to pay for going over the middle, and fans appreciate a guy who has the nads to go take that hit.
I do agree with you that it gets out of hand. The Adrian Petersen link, for instance. His ankle is hurt and guys are trying to twist it in the pile. That's chickensh1t, and it'll get taken care of during the course of the game. The guy that did it is going to pay the price with a shot in the chin, finger in the eye, you name it.

On the high school level, kids have no clue how to avoid wrecking another kid for life. One chop block or low hit on a planted foot can ruin someone forever. They don't get that. They don't have any idea what kind of hits can (and do) cause ankles and knees to get blown out. They spear and jam their own necks because they think their gear is armor and they're immortal. My point wasn't that they know HOW to cause a huge injury on purpose, it's that they don't know how to AVOID causing a huge injury.
They'll also throw their bodies around with wreckless abandon because everyone is immortal when they're that age. :)

How painful is it that Michael Irvin ended up in a postgame show? :lr

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

It's definitely a fine line here, but wherever you want to place the line, I'm against the implied headhunting that a bounty system has. A clean, hard shot (within the standards of a "natural play"), is something I love to see. I also love seeing the guys help each other up after such a shot, as well. What I don't like is guys taking (at least) borderline cheap shots, with the intention of causing an injury to get the opposing player out of the game. It's one thing if your QB is running for his life and getting battered because his o-line sucks, but another when the defensive players are taking those 2-3+ extra steps to get a shot on him to injure him. I think that's where my issue with the bounties lie. The perception that the players will take those cheap shots to be able to collect the payments.

As for players having the body control necessary to deliver a "minor" injury vs a major one goes...have you watched how much "control" a lot of the d-backs (and linebackers, for that matter) in the league have? LMAO. Seriously, though, I do agree that they have a greater body awareness and control than your "average" athlete. However, with the speed these guys are moving at, and the force they deliver, it's not as simple as having great body control and awareness. And, for that matter, they're not thinking "if I hit him here, it'll only cause minor damage to this part of his body, which will heal in x amount of time" when they go to make a play. They're thinking "hit hard, take him out".

I guess the main point I haven't been able to get across is that having an "official" bounty program takes away from the integrity of clean/pure competition in the sport, which is something I truly value.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

See, I thought we agreed. :tu
I illustrated that extra hard shot when a receiver comes across the middle for a specific reason. It doesn't need to be there any more than a strategy that specifically targets knocking a player out of the game, but it's also one in the same, more or less. Very often those wide receivers get helped off the field and suffer bruised ribs, etc. It's a planned and accepted head-hunting strategy that's played out the whole game, every game.
While I agree the whole "bounty" thing is infantile and wreckless, it's a part of the game that's always been and will always be there.
The breakdown here is that some nipplehead shot his mouth off and brought locker room business out in the open, which is a major no-no. They put both the players, coaches and NFL in peril. If someone is to lose their career, I think it should be the guy that shot his mouth off, not the coach who's taking the fall for it (when he clearly isn't the guy responsible for running the pool).

I think if there's one thing you and I disagree on, it's "the integrity...of the sport". That went out the window when big money rolled into town. Major League Baseball suffers from the same affliction. It's probably the most sickening in the NBA where Kobe Bryant runs the league.
At some point money became far more important than integrity. Unfortunately some of this is bleeding downhill to college and high school, but fortunately there are still a lot of coaches in small markets at those levels that still use sports as a tool to build quaility men, rather than to fill the coffers with cash.

Great points and awesome discussion, by the way. You're making me rethink all this real hard, brother. :tu

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

I guess I'm a purist, in regards to the sports I watch. Though I'm not deluded enough to think that it is actually that way. It's how I really want to see it. The salaries are beyond insane, and aren't going to stop going up any time soon. Don't get me started on MLB...UGH!!!

As for the NBA, are they even required to dribble any more? If so, is it just not allowed inside the 3 point line? I'm sick of the "mugging" for the camera every time they make a shot or block one. Move on, next play, unless it's a game winner or something of that nature. Not when you're down by 25 with 2 minutes left in the 4th. ...and Kobe could never hold MJ's jock when he was in his prime.

Thats the thing about how sports used to be. It was used as a tool to build quality men (and women). You used to learn how to fill your role and work as a team. In the field I work in, I supervise, interview, and hire people. I see more and more of the younger generation simply in it for themselves. They don't know how to actually collaborate and work with people any more. It's sad and rather disgusting to me, as I place a high value on being able to work well within a team (of any nature). Put your ego aside and get shyte done.

As for the investigation of the bounty program, I don't remember how they figured it all out. I remember hearing they had investigated before, but don't remember the details of how it was all confirmed. I will say that if I was on a team that had one, and the league office asked me whether it existed or not, I would be truthful about it. Just not in my nature to not do it. The one thing I do know is that there were rumors of it earlier, and the league checked some, and told them to knock it off, if they had one. They didn't. That's on management and the coaching staff, IMO, whether or not Williams instituted it (which is who did, as far as I'm aware...please correct me if I'm wrong about that). As for who takes the blame...the players involved obviously do, but do you suspend only specific ones for those instances? I think the coaches should, as well, as they are in the position to stop it, but apparently didn't (at the minimum)...especially when the league already told them to knock it off.

OK...I've spent FAR too much time on this issue than I should have, and I am going to let it die now. I think I finally was able to get my point of view expressed clearly, and know that it's a minority position here.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

I'm with you on what sports used to be and what they are now. I miss Tom Landry, bad.
I carried the purist torch for years and finally just gave up. I've been a die-hard Steelers fan nearly all my life and I'm at the point with them that I'd just as soon root for the Browns. It just ain't like it used to be, and it's sad.
You're right about the way it plays all across the board. That's a shame, too.
I even agree that a "bounty" system is ridiculous. In days past, men played for pride, their team and their coach. That's just plain gone. The last of the old-time coaches exists in Tom Coughlin, I'm thrilled he took the ring this year.
Hopefully some teams will take a look at what he does and why it's successful, and we'll head back to some of the values that made professional sports flourish. :tu

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

I didn't know that about the Bronco's. Hm.
I wasn't saying it as, "Oh poor us". I was saying it as in, "Yea, people still bring it up and it's annoying..."
Yea yea yea. F the Giants.
I understand what I said, thank you for quoting it....
I also said that I didn't care to, because I don't need to prove anything to you... I heard the interview, you look it up if you want to believe it. Believe it or not, I don't give a damn. Being "proud" of that hit is a pretty stupid comment to make, which is why I linked it. :rolleyes:

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

Exactly what I thought... Thanks for playing........:r

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

:rolleyes:
Your ignorance astounds me.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

These are statements without proof. Prove it!

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

Wow, the league came down HARD. Deserved, IMHO.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/77...-year-bounties

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

That's a beefy penalty. Williams suspended indefinitely, Payton suspended for the season, GM gone for 8 games and out 500K Saint fined 500K and lose the 2nd round pick the next two years! That's very stiff. It will be appealed I would imagine.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

What about the MMA?
Please explain that one.:D

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

Found this on Wiki:

...The more dangerous Vale Tudo style bouts of the early UFCs were made safer with the implementation of additional rules, leading to the popular regulated form of MMA seen today. Originally promoted as a competition with the intention of finding the most effective martial arts for real unarmed combat situations, competitors were pitted against one another with minimal rules. Later, fighters employed multiple martial arts into their style while promoters adopted additional rules aimed at increasing safety for competitors and to promote mainstream acceptance of the sport.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

I think I will use the ignore function on some people for the first time ever.
WAIT...where the hell is it?

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

So your telling me that when the kick them in the head and knock them out, or throw them down and continue to punch them in their face till they are unconsious or bend their limbs untill they either break or give up.

Your telling me they arnt just beating the **** out of eachother?

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

If that's what they're doing, then it isn't a sport, it's this:

http://famouswonders.com/wp-content/...lice_Verso.jpg

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

I think it was a fair punishment. Hell, fine them MORE. They should have to pay inflated stadium prices for everything.

I don't agree with the observation that it should be accepted just because that's the way it is. That's like saying not to arrest drug dealers, because there will always be heroin on the streets.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

I will never, and I mean NEVER forget the Keith Hackney and Joe Son fight. :pu

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

Feel free to show me all the fines for illegal hits Saints players incurred over the past three seasons. While you're at it, please list the players who were injured for any period of time as a direct result from a hit or hits levied by a Saints defender. Take all the time you need.:)

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

Wow they are sending a message ... we don't know all the details, but I would imagine they can and will appeal this to an extent. If the Saints don't then I would say the NFL has more facts then we know of right now.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

I was not calling out the saints in particular. Simply stating that if they were found guilty of bounty hits, that they should be paying a fine.

Just because someone drinks and drives and gets away with it does not make it any better than the person who does the same but wrecks and kills innocent people. They are both horribly wrong for acting in the manner they did to begin with.

My argument is purely on the principle. And my apologies if I came across differently than my intention.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

My take as well

:2

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

I think the main issue is being missed here. Today's punishment was levied for specific violations of NFL rules. Including disregarding a specific memo that had to be signed and returned to the league office regarding ANY performance bonuses. These are a clear violation of the salary cap. Whether anyone was injured or fined doesnt matter, the program existed and thats why punishments were given.

Individual player suspensions will be forthcoming, in addition to possible IRS investigations of tax evasion. :2

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

I don't believe the NFL lists their fines. We hear of them all the time, but I don't think you'll find a comprehensive list of them provided by the NFL.

Of course, that doesn't mean you can't search for them. At the risk of reading more rhetoric...
This one probably paints the Saints in the poorest light. Interesting that Williams is quoted in that article saying "If that guy doesn't want his head tore off, duck. Because that's how we're playing." Classy! Reading it now, after the league came down on him and the Saints, makes him look even more like an ass.

Here's another one you're familiar with. Bobby McCray on Favre.

I also found fines levied on other Saint players for illegal hits or unnecessary roughness. In 2010, Malcolm Jenkins and Marvin Mitchell. 2009 Jonathon Vilma. 2008 Kevin Kaesviharn.

Good enough?

Oh, just found another one. Roman Harper (again) last year.

That's all the time I needed. ;)

Feel free to research each of the incidents I listed further to see if anyone missed any playing time. Take all the time you need. :)

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

It was discussed (albeit briefly) early in the thread, but the moral outrage of football players getting hit drowned that discussion out.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

I can't agree with you Bob. While I understand the cap violations are part of the story, Roger Goodell has stated that player safety is paramount. The GM may be receiving his suspension because of the cap implications, but Gregg Williams is receiving his for the bounty. That's how I see it, anyway.

Here's a couple quotes from Roger Goodell
To reason that the money aspect is driving this doesn't make sense to me.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

Sorry, didnt mean to say that cap violations were the primary issue, but only one of the violations. Player safety, competition, lying to investigators were all part of the decision.

If 25 of NO's 27 defensive players were involved, I wonder how many will be suspended? I think Vilma for sure, but we'll see who else.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

1. Gregg Williams wasn't the DC of the Saints in 2008.
2. I don't need to; the WSJ already did that for us.
3. The burden of proof isn't on me to show that players were getting intentionally maimed by Saints defenders under Gregg Williams guidance.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

No, the mob is driving this thing. That much is painfully obvious. The public called for blood and blood they got.:2

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

One would have to think Roman Harper as well.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

Doing a bit of reading on this topic today I have a couple of things that sort of stuck out for me. To those who are defending the Saints, didn't Payton already admit wrongdoing? I am quite sure that his statement on March 6 where he acknowledged that the bounty program existed and that he would make sure that he never be involved with it again is an admission of guilt. Having said that, the penalty seems to me to make sense. The 2nd is that it seems to me that this is as much about lying about it originally than it is about any specific injury that may or may not have happened because of the bounty program. Now whether or not a bounty program exists on other teams, or has existed is still up for debate. The fact that it existed here, to me, isn't about the salary cap, or the dollar amounts it's more about the motivation to make the big hit. I do just fine at work, but if I win a measly little office pool for $5 bucks, I get more satisfaction from that then I do my weekly paycheck. So the motivation for me to win the office pool is almost greater than what drives me to perform my job. I hope I'm saying that so it makes sense to people. I certainly enjoy the $5 bucks more. So even though these players all do really well, I can see it motivating them to get the payoff in front of their teammates.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

Although I'm sure I'm viewed as one who's defending their actions, I'm not. I simply think that the perception, whether real or not, is that this was about attempting to injure other players. Personally, circumventing the salary cap with a, "bounty" system being funded by entities outside the organization and the (attempted) coverup is the real issue.:2

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

The way this penalty phase sits now, it's got the teeth to absolutely gut the Saints next year. Losing the head coach, money, and draft picks (which makes absolutely no sense to me) should be sufficient punishment. It definitely sends the desired message, and it's likely to cost the Saints a number of games next year and a shot at the playoffs.
Now if Goodell starts suspending players, I can't see why their (bounty program) participation is less damning than Payton's knowledge of it. They certainly knew that they shouldn't be doing it and it had to have been communicated to them that they'd been told to quit.
So now we suspend almost the entire Saints defense for a year? That seems like an equal punishment.
Right now Goodell is playing the fear game, and he's playing it well. On appeal I see this being pared back dramatically. I doubt that Payton is able to appeal via the CBA as he's not a member, but in a court of law he wins easily. There's no precedent, no rules in place, and the Commissioner can dole out punishment at whim. That wouldn't likely stand up if it's tried.

I'm not sure where I sit on the punishment. I think it should be huge, but I don't think it should cripple the franchise's ability to compete. I completely disagree with the draft picks being taken away. I agree with the coach and GM's suspensions. I don't think they're excessive. The $500,000 is a pittance.
Maybe let Payton coach and fine him the $7,000,000 he'd have made this year and donate it to a player's injury fund to pay for health care for uninsured/injured players and so forth? Same with the GM, let the team buy him back by donating his salary.

I don't think crippling the team's ability to compete is the answer, although I agree that my angle won't likely make an impact because millions of dollars is nothing to many ball clubs. I don't envy Goodell's position, and he's been very effective at handling problems in the past. I'm sure he's thought of every angle, surrounded by a team of lawyers.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

See, I don't see the bounty program as anything more than an office pool.
I think the issue is putting the league at risk for litigation. They're in the midst of fighting off these concussion lawsuits and this "bounty program" coming to light very much damages any shred of credibility they may have put together in their defense.

On another front, I heard this thing all blew up when Farve got carted off the field while he played for Minnesota. I didn't catch who the player was that made the hit, but that player was overheard saying "get me my money" or something to that effect, wanting his bounty money.
Did you hear that story?

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

I remember before that playoff game that there was a reported bounty out for Favre. I don't remember the in-game comments from players. After all that's come out the last few weeks, I certainly believe you though, Scott.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

This thing turned into a 1700 page report, Andy. Maybe someone read that from the report and reported on it? I wish I'd have been paying closer attention.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

Warren Sapp claimed that Jeremy Shockey blew the whistle back in '09. The NFL did an investigation and didn't find enough evidence, my guess is that's when the Saints were told to cut the sh1t.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

I disagree. I think the bigger issue for the NFL (and for me, personally) was the intent to injure and the fact there was an award for doing so. Like Scott alluded, the NFL doesn't want the liability. And the amount of money involved was peanuts, relative to salaries.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

:tpd:

For all the crybaby Favre fans complaining about the beating Favre took that game, I heard them talking on Mike and Mike that the NFL didn't fine a single player and reviewing the game once again in light of said information, didn't really provide any more insight that the Saints were really playing dirty. Perhaps they were playing more within the full rules, but too many hits or hitting too hard? This isn't pee wee football we're talking about here.

If Favre didn't need a walker to get around before the game, it's even less of an issue of taking the hits during the game. :r

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

But the NFL, and rightfully so, views it as a circumvention of the salary cap. Further, outside entities helped fund these, "bounty" programs. Outside money influencing play on the field is a huge no-no in sports.
Court of opinion, sure. Court of law? I have my doubts.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

Which is being ridiculously overblown, IMO. With a three year ongoing investigation, isn't it safe to deduct that the League would've taken a particular interest into the Saints play on the field?
And that was money rewarded for performance on the field, which was paid, "under the table" which in turn is a direct circumvention of the salary cap.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

This is nothing more than NFL PR aiming to get out ahead of any possible litigation. The Saints do not deserve
anything LIKE this, at least nothing that the entire league is not subject to. Losing DRAFT PICKS?? Come on.
This punishment is just like everything Goodell does, OVER THE TOP. I am not saying it is not his right, I am not
saying the league doesn't NEED to be reined in at every corner, I am saying that I do not like it, I don't think it's
all that fair, and I will not be watching NFL football in 2012.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

I understand that position, and it's a tool they have to use. We're talking pool money of $50,000, $1,000 for a hit that runs a player off the field, $1500 for a cart off. That's dinner money for these guys.
They can call it circumvention, because it is. Regardless, it's chickensh1t. It's a claim that'll stick, and it serves their higher purpose without making it look like they're covering their ass, which is what it is.
I'm not at all saying that the NFL is wrong in any of their actions here, I just have an affinity for getting down to the truth of the matter.
As far as my assertion about a court of law, Payton may not have any recourse in this whatever, including a court of law. I would think that the NFL has covered their ass so far as handing out punishments, making sure they're held harmless by contract.
I do think Payton got his due, I just wish their was a way that the fans don't have to suffer this. They're the ones paying the bill, and the ones who ultimately pay the most by watching their team become dismantled.

Re: Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?
 

Agreed 100%. That's why to me, I think doing this under the guise of, "player safety" is to appease the masses. If they (the League office) were aware of these things three years ago and were truly concerned about the safety of their players, it would've been shut down three years ago, period. The League has shown time and again under Goodell's tenure to be pro-active to protect the League's, "image". Interesting that the hammer didn't fall until a month after these findings became public, no?