Re: Martial Arts - What Do/Did You Study
 

Quoting from "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" by Renzo and Royler Gracie: "Probably the most common complaint with regard to grappling as a viable means of self-defense is that grappling is useless against multiple opponents. The argument is that in locking with one attacker, one is easily attacked by his partners in crime. This is entirely true. Grappling skills will not allow you to destroy several attackers at once. Brazilian jiu-jitsu makes no claim to teach a method of overwhelming mass attacks. Should you be heavily outnumbered, Brazilian jiu-jitsu will not save you. It is the contention of the authors that no other style of empty-hand fighting will save you either. The martial arts is full of overinflated claims. One of the most common is that one unarmed man can defeat many aggressive, dangerous attackers at once. The irony is that many of the stylists who made suck grandiose claims proved entirely incapable of defeating even a single attacker when put ot the test in mixed martial arts competition. Such claims are the stuff of fantasy and belong more to the realm of martial arts movies than a book concerned with real fighting."

I'm only a lowly white-belt, so I don't want to answer myself, so I thought I'd give it to you out of the horses mouth, so to speak.

Re: Martial Arts - What Do/Did You Study
 

I see no horse.....

From my black belt test I had to take on 3 oponents, mind you only 2 had attacked at the same time, and I had to get punched by one of them to take them both out, but yea..... it's possible, no matter what style you're in. Just depends on the circumstances, what you understand about your capabilities and what you can do....

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Exactly.

I too have fought multiple opponents at once (training situations). I usually got my ass handed to me, but the potential for survival was there.

A former colleague of mine was mugged by 5 guys with sticks and knives and he survived. I can't say the same for his assailants though. I think 2 made it, but will never walk again.

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Difference between training and real life is, can you handle it, will you react on instict from the thousands of times you did the move or will you freeze up.... then once you act on instinct, you then realize you can and will hurt these people. All of a sudden you're not stopping as you touch their throat skin, you're stopping 3 inches beyond that, you follow through with the kick to their knee, and that elbow to the face, well that hurts you too though hurts them much more.

I'm lucky I've only had to use it a few times, and every time I was scared shitless, my adrenaline was pumping, and yea I got hurt 50% of the time... the best thing you learn is not being there.... stay out of the situation so you don't have to do anything...

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I love the "this is better than this" and "that is better than that" discussions that take place whenever martial arts are brought up. The fact of the matter is that in a real situation you can win or lose on any given day. One style is not better than the other; it all depends on the practitioner and the situation that takes place. Jiu-jutsu (it is jutsu folks) is just as good as goju-ryu which is just as good as muay thai, etc. It's all about preparation, training, understanding, and ability. And even all of those don't add up to guarantee you won't get your ass kicked by someone untrained; though it does better the odds.

And for those that think TKD sucks, go watch the ROK Marines training in South Korea and see if you want to join them; it's no joke. Again, it's all about the practitioner.

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I agree with most of this, especially that it is the prep, training, understanding and ability that matter most. I still balk at anyone defending TKD as being on the same level as the others. TKD is, in my and many of my fellow artists opinions, the least rounded defense system out there. That's not to say that it isn't a good way to exercise, build confidence, etc. It just doesn't train you for most practical fighting situations. Most fights, as hardcz mentioned above, happen so fast that it is the muscle memory of years of repetition that will dictate how you perform. And even that has a 50/50 chance of backfiring. When you don't have those years of training in close contact fighting (which TKD certainly does NOT focus on), you don't have what it takes for 90% of fights. Seriously, 90% of fights end up on the ground. I have a great jump spinning hook kick, but it's worthless when I'm tangled up with someone or on the ground...

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I agree, the ROK Marines are pretty hardcore. I think most of the impression that TKD sucks comes from the Mcdojo rank mills that seem so prevalent.

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Don't forget the BS "martial arts" competitions where they dance, jump, spin 3 times in the air and land to the splits but it's cool cause it's too the music and they punch and scream at the end.

These people who put on these shows are not showing any true martial skill, they're doing gymnastics and calling it martial arts. Sure it's cool you can jump and flip... you're just looking for a way to make you not look like a pansey.. hell even though they played with barbies, *the boys* they're straight because they do martial arts, not gymnastics... :bh

Anways, if you really know what to look for, you can tell when a punch is just a punch, and when it actually has power behind it.

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Drat, the thing is that TKD involves most of the technical principles that any other standing martial arts has too. As Kreth says below, it's the mcdojo that's made it seem like a worthless martial art. If, however, you know and understand the principles within your art, then you can apply it whether it's karate, TKD, judo or what. These mcdojos have everyone thinking that TKD is only about the high-flying kicks and so many people write it off as a viable martial art. But, guess what, there's other kicks and punches in there too. It's not the art that invalidates its viability, it's how it's being sold to the masses that's diluted it. TKD practitioners can have muscle memory just like anyone else. Again, it's how they train, know and understand the principles within their art that makes the difference.

Yep, totally.

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3 years of Shorin-ryu. Damaged my knee sparring and had to give it up.

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Thoughts on Jeet Kune Do?

I've only read a little about it, but understand that Bruce was very much into adapting whatever styles that work for an individual. I know that some followers have adopted it as a "style" and that others try to keep to Bruce's idea that it is not so much a style, but that it is almost a philosophy. Take the best of what is out there and use what works for you.

Is that a fair analysis?

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It's cool.... like I said previously though, if you study one style and expect it to be the best, you will fail. You need to take parts from each and apply it to yourself and situation to have a full understanding of it, and even then you still will be a student for life. Once you learn to accept this then it becomes easier.

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Unless that art happens to be Sinanju! :r

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You wish, my Dan Fu will pwn ju!

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I agree that most styles are of equality, and the performance is more based on the practicioner.

Except Wado Riu and TKD. Wado rules, TKD drools. 'nuff said.

Ironically, my only multiple attacker situations all occured before any formal training. Having come from a fairly rough part of a fairly rough industrial town in the '80s you learned to play in the neighbourhoods through a "trial of fire". I went for months at a time where you would be expected to fight someone at least once a day. As I moved around alot, even within that city, I was always the "new kid". So, everyone wanted to know where you sat in the pecking order. Little did they know that this very tendency was giving me an unfair advantage. As I was always the new kid, noone had to fight as much as I did. With repetition comes compentence.

I only type this as its fun to tell stories from the past (I guess that's a sign of getting old?). I don't want to fight any of you....go pick on a newbie!:ss

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Very valid point. I guess my experience has only been with the McDojos. I have come across too many TKD blackbelts who have proven absolutely NO actual ability to defend themselves in a practical fighting situation. I guess the real point of it is that anybody with enough knowledge of what real fighting is like will never get into one. That's an ego boost for me considering I've been in 3 "real" fights in the 20 years that I've been training...

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While we're telling war stories...
A few years ago my wife (gf at the time) and I were out at the bars, and some moron made a rude comment to one of her friends. I called him on it, words were exchanged, and he leans over real serious-like and says, "Look man, I've been kick-boxing for 3 years. I can kick you in the side of the head before you even move. You don't want none of this."
I said, "Gee, I've only been doing Japanese martial arts for a little over a decade. It's gonna be a shame when I snap your knee."
My wife's friend got an apology. :r

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Before or after the knee snapping?:r

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Before. I've found most of those guys are like the little chihuahua that barks his ass off. If he was gonna kick me, he would have. Since I didn't back down (and in fact raised his bet) he did...

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I think we can summarize that we are, indeed, all tough guys here.

:ss

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I'm a bad ass. One day Chuck Norris was crossing the street. When a bus hit him.. Of course the bus was instantly destroyed by the force of hitting Chuck. I told him that wasn't cool because he was jay walking. He said he was Chuck Norris and rules didn't apply to him, he was the rules.... That's when I laid the smack down. I walked up to Chuck, stared him down. When he started the thought process of how to get rid of me, that's when I swept his feet from under him, while he was still firing his little brain cells to decide how to take me out, I was punching him mid air, into the ground. Six months later he woke up punching the air. Apparently he thought I was in front of him when he came out of the coma.

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I have been studying Chuck Norrisdo for many years.

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I killed a 6 pack once, just to watch it die... :r

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I make kids cry

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:r:r

I will readily state that I am not a tough guy. I have no real desire to be a tough guy. I do want to be a good bjj practitioner and improve myself physically and mentally through martial arts.





and when I'm done with that I want a good cigar :D

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You could make an MMA career out of those two things combined. Get the guy in your guard then put out a Cremosa on his face for the submission. :r

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My escrima instructor has a great MMA story, some kid was telling him that his MMA style is better than others because of a particular hold. So my instructor (MMA guy himself but did not tell the kid) decided to give this kid the opportunity to prove it and allowed the kid to put a lock on him. Once locked, my instructor pulled out a knife, the kid freaked and let go yelling "what the hell are you doing!" my instructor said "you had me in a lock, I was going to stab you in the leg". The knife worked, the kid dropped the lock and my instructor now has a hilarious story to tell.

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Closest I have is boxing. Boxed amateur growing up...had a good record if I do say so myself. 74-8

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My belt is longer and thicker than your belt.

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We are gonna have to compare pictures. :bx

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Kali - knife and stick

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My belt holds my pants up and is studded with steel rivets.

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oh yea! my belt doesn't even fit anymore :fu

on a serious note thank you everyone for all the input regarding multiple opponents.

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Kodekon Judo (taught as well), Te Kwon Do, Kobekan Ju-Jitsu.

Now; (flash to scene of Indiana Jones fighting the Swordsman) .357 magnum! (Getting to old to mess with it :ss)

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Been to Korea and watched the ROK Marines train almost everyday that i was there and they train hard. i took Okinawan Kempo for about 3 years when i was stationed over there.

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I did this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuai_jiao for a couple years as a kid

made it to the third belt (yellow in this case) and quit when the Sifu become an unbearable ass

wouldn't mind picking it back up at some point

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Took up Kung Fu (Northern Praying Mantis style/variation) when I was 39. Got my black belt when I was 43. Quit about 4 months after that when I almost blew my back and knee out doing butterfly kicks. I realized it wasn't worth ruining my back and knees for the rest of my life just to get my next stripe. It was great fun while I did it!

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Something I like about FMA, who I train with, kicks are directed at the opponents chest on down. Though high flying kicks are really cool to watch in forms. We just have to worry about not breaking our knuckles with sticks or botched homicide with machetes.

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Who did you study with over there? I knew Butch Spain and got to train with him a few times. I got to meet Odo Sensei once while there too.

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Yeah, strain on my knees was one of the reasons I chose BJJ after doing TDK/Kenpo for a while. My flexibility is almost as good as it was, and I don't pound my knees nearly as much (notice I didn't say not at all).

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I'd like to propose a vote that we remove Tae Kwon Do as a Martial Art and classify it as gymnastics. :r

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Been doing Kendo and Iaido for about five years now.

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Brazilian Jiu-jitsu only for 3 weeks...

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Isshin-ryū

Had to give it up when I had my accident and herniated two discs.

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What school are you studying at? I've heard quite a bit about Gracie Barra out there...just curious. :D

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:D im studying at a Gracie Barra school, in a 25 mile radius there are more then 10 including the headquarters...

Less then 30min i have Royce Gracie's school (i forgot what its called)...

then less then a hour away i have the Gracie Academy, Machado's school, and Eddie Bravo's school (The 10th Planet)...

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Be careful, the Gracie schools had a reputation in the 90s for having the most injured students at any given time.

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Jerry, you are a disgrace to your race...

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so do the hurting and don't get hurt :dance:

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That's interesting, I wonder what belt level they had most of their injuries in? I trained with a young man tonight that just moved to CO from FL and had trained in a Gracie Barra school. Our school requires 20 beginner classes of just techniques before you can start live training (grappling at speed with a partner). His school allowed live training from day 1. Just wondering what would happen to a bunch of guys in their first week rolling with someone with a few months but not a lot of control.

Anyway, tonight was my 71st class! :wo

Good times!