Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Agreed, it's a personal decision and you should feel no obligation whatsoever to support a B&M, just as those that frequent B&M's feel no obligation to support or buy from an internet retailer....

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

I sell things manufactured by a name brand company. These items sell for anywhere from $35k to $250k. Although it is the leading brand in the industry, the marketplace dictates what that product will sell for based on quality, efficiency, aftermarket support and the reputation of the dealer. There are no artificial ways to make the consumer pay more (which this is all about) in my industry nor do I believe that there should be. The market should always dictate the price. :2

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Solid post Michael:tu

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

I can understand where you are coming from but at the same time you telling us of this trend may be a way for the B&Ms to make ends meet when smoking bans are put in place. Having a lounge may be the loop hole they need to keep it so their patrons can still smoke there or even may be a way to supplement lost revenue from the bans which may have caused business to drop. Most lounges but not all that I know of that are membership based will normally allow you to sit and enjoy your smokes there for free if you make purchases. I know of one that keeps their lounge behind closed doors and only allow paying members to enter. I can see your frustration since you used to be able to smoke there for free but can see both sides of the coin when you introduce public smoking bans especially if they are offering amenities that may not have been available prior to making it a full fledged lounge.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

I knew if I kept reading I might find an opinion I shared :tu

To me its no different than the wally world argument putting the mom and pops out of business. In the 3 county area I live there have been dozens of wally worlds built. Lots of small shops went out of business. MANY survived and the winner was the consumer. The ones who survived, changed their business model, lowered prices or offered unique services. Gave me a reason to shop there, and I continue to support those who deserve my business. I the consumer still have the right to choose where to spend my money. The cigar industry should be no different. As mentioned earlier. the Ohio smoking ban provided a golden opportunity for shops to change their philosophy, create lounges, install a few plasma tvs, heck just put in a vending machine and a few chairs. A few did and they are often full of chatty old fellas telling war stories and moaning about the wife. The others, raised their prices since traffic went down, and they spend the day dusting the shelf's and throwing out the moldy cigars.

Chas

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

I'm a little rusty, but last I checked the Ohio smoking ban only exempts some tobacco shops, not all, correct?

If the ban affects the shops you frequent, I see the fee as a way to allow smoking to continue for the convenience of the patrons. If it doesn't affect the shops, then what else do they offer besides a "private" lounge for you to smoke in? There has to be something that few dollars is being invested into.

Just curious.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Neoflex, perhaps they do need this extra income to make ends meat BUT, what if it had gone the other way. If they had kept the lounge open and advertised as a place that you can sit a smoke I think more people would be inclined to go there and smoke since we can't in bars, bowling allies, etc. and they would be buying more product at the same time. I know I am not alone in reducing my spending since implementing the "membership fee".

If I was allowed to enter with a minimum purchase perhaps I wouldn't be so torqued about the whole thing, but if you want to stay and smoke you pay the fee weather you buy a single or a box.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Great post Chas....:ss We as cigar Hobbyists are free to buy where we want at the prices we want and only we truly deem what value really is without any obligation to support an establishment just for the sake of supporting it.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Any cigar shop that was in operation before the ban is grandfathered in as long as 80% if revenue is tobacco related. Post ban any shop that is in a free standing building can be smoked in, but not one that is in a strip mall or has adjoining businesses. The laws definition of a "private club" is a place where there are no employees. So this wouldn't fly in a cigar store.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Not saying it is right just that I can see both sides. I've always wanted to open my own B&M/Lounge but in reality that is highly unlikely unless I win Powerball.:r If I did I would do as I described above. Have a members only type lounge but would have a very low daily fee probrably in the range of $5 but if you stopped in and bought $15-$20+ worth of smokes would allow you to come in and join at no additional cost to you. I am at least hoping that these places added some amenities. If they kept things as is and just imposed a membership fee than that is just wrong IMHO. If they added a separate section with private storage lockers, Flat screen TVs, upgraded seating etc etc than that would be at least be understandable. If you were a regular and they just shunned you for not joining than that too is just wrong.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Don't know about the rest of ya'll but my bank account is getting smaller and my tobacco money is miniscule. If I can get better prices by ordering online, that's what I do. I enjoy a herf now and again but I'll be damned if I will hang out in a place that requires me to pay a membership so that I can pay double the price for a smoke.
My front porch does just fine and the chairs already have my butt groove.
My local B&Ms are pretty high in regards to price. One won't carry Padrons or Fuentes so they're out. Another has some very annoying staff. The final one has a very limited selection, cigars and pipe tobacco, and are pricey. So what's the draw?

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

I believe your right, but I was at a newer shop the other day in a strip shopping center, (I know they were not there before the ban) and they were smoking in there :confused:

I did buy a cigar from them because it was a nice shop and the lady actually made me laugh a few times. She said fire it up and let me know what you think. I said you sure you can be smoking in here and she replied smoke away.

So I did :D

Chas

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

So let me get this straight.

Olivia thinks Mike's sells their cigars to customers too cheaply? So where is the problem? Olivia not know we're in a recession? Like a lot of people my raise this year is a big fat zero, but I'm not complaining, at least I have a job. Real estate taxes are up. Food prices are up. Beer is up. Gas is up. Health insurance cost up, benefits down ... and on and on.

And Olivia pulls somebody's account because I can get their cigars cheaper at that vendor? Most of the V prices there are MSRP minus 10%. I ask again, where is the problem? There is no competition whatsoever between my local B&M and Mike's. I buy singles and odd items at my B&M because I like to support them. If I buy a box online, I price shop and get it the cheapest place that has what I want in stock.

All Olivia is doing is making people pay more for cigars. Good job *ss****s.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

I don't find Mike to be very competitive these days....I don't buy his sticks as CI/Famous/Atlantic all offer better prices pretty consistently. And it seems his deals consist of a free five pack or free ashtray or lighter....and/or unappealing cigars.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

For me to find a B&M in which I can smoke, I must drive an hour. Usually, when I go to them, I am piggy-backing a stop there onto my hospital visits. I'd love to sit down for a smoke, but I usually stop in - browse a bit - pick up a couple sticks and if I am lucky, spend a few minutes in conversation.

Locally, the only places tha have cigars are Book World stores, not the happenin' place for grand selection, and smoking is verbotten.

I must say, I miss the B&Ms I had in Connecticut. There were a few nearby where I'd come and melt into a chair and enjoy a nice stick.

Personally, I wish my disposable income were greater so I could support them better when I get there.

So, for me, most of my purchases are internet based.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

However I'm glad they weren't on Tuesday!

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

I buy from both internet and b&m. Have a good relationship with b&m, they treat me very well. They'll sell me an entire box of opus at msrp. The owner has told me if i see a good price on the web to let him know, he'll see if he can match or come close. If they can come close i'd rather give them the business. If he can't he'll tell me it's a hell of a deal and to grab it. It's a couple blocks from work and a nice refuge at times. They know what i like, they know not to waste my time with crap. They in return support my restaurant when they can.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

:tpd:

That's exactly what I strive for where I work. Making sure people feel like I'm going the mile for them, because it brings back business to me. Regular return business is how B&M's stay alive, it's an absolute must have.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

:tu :chr

And he sells boxes of Opus at MSRP, you GOTTA love that shop!

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

I made sense... Now your scaring me..... Thanks.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

We have a lot of cigar makers, shop owners, cigar reps here at CA. I would hope they take some of the comments in this thread and others and pass it on to other peeps in the industry. Maybe BI (before Internet) there was a way of life and BR (before resession) there was a lot more money, but things have changed.

I try to smoke 3 - 7 cigars a week, depends on my schedule. Even before the pay cut I took 2 weeks ago (I am very thankful to have my job) paying a cover charge to burn one would not happen. Unless they are looking for the really rich, Average Joe doesn't have it. Where I will spend the $5 on a cigar possibly or a nick nack, I'm sitting on the porch before a cover charge.

Let me smoke what I bring, not some 70% or greater soggy lump of tobacco forced sale to smoke there. Even as a fairly noob person I keep my sticks better than people who have been in the biz for years. I know not to mooch, no sweat to the shop, some of your stock is leaving if I smoke there.

I understand taxes, insurance, rent, etc. But the prices have got to be somewhere close to the compitition. Get real or get gone because even the rich types are starting to pinch pennies, well they prolly pinch quarters.

As I noted earlier, I'm not all that for a B&M but not really against them in principle either. Offer me someting for the extra $$$ you need/want to charge, knowledge, good attitude, a better price, a reasonable place to smoke , wings and babes, etc. I guess if folks see value in the B&Ms I would like them to survive, but as of today they don't offer any value to me. Best 2 places I smoke are the American Legion (can't beat the prices there and everyone knows my name) and out in town Bailey's. Sort of an up scale pub type place. Decent food, the air in the resturant is 100% filtered 8 times an hour, pool tables, some video games, only downside is the staff service sucks, but no place is perfect. They even sell a few cigars in a wall humi if you need an extra. A wee bit high but not really gouging. Well, there is one other place but JK and I hit up, a biker dive, but most would not care to visit :)

My .02 and not even worth all that much now days.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

:tpd: I couldn't say it any better than this Sean. Definitely a place for both online and B&M cigars. +

As far as Bose speakers, Rolex, etc, I am not a fan of price fixing. Let a product stand on it's quality and the selling company's service.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Guys, your not understanding the fact of state OTP. This is the reason that there is a huge price difference. Take Michigan for example. The state OTP is 32% (there are PLENTY of states that it's higher, much higher). So if a shop buys a box for $100, they immediately at the end of the month, are into the state for $32. So if they keystone the box to $200 (which would be msrp of said box), add the tax, the box is $232 per box. It's impossible for a retailer to go in the hole $32, then take another 10% off MSRP to compete with a major online retailer. Online retailers are for the most part in non-tax states like FL. If they are in a taxed state, they can get around paying the tax if they ship the box out of state, which most of them do. The price difference you see from online shops to local B&M's is due to your home state's legislature, plain and simple. Sure there may be a gouger here and there, but the main price difference is from the state's OTP.

And Sean, please don't just key Oliva as the bad guy, you'd be surprised how many of your favorite cigar manufacturers do the exact same thing in price protecting their brand. I have yet to have a shop in my territory complain to me, or any other rep I know that work for other manufacturers that this is done. Infact, it's just the opposite. Retailers are happy that measures like this are taken by manufactuers to help keep the business coming in.

I will say this though, if you had to pay your states tax on purchases that you bought online and had shipped to you, I think a lot of thoughts may change. It's already happening in small doses, and is a reality in the future. State's see that they're losing tax dollars due to online sales and there is a union of states that have begun getting records and collecting said taxes.

Listen, like I said, I don't know the details of the Mike's situation and it's not my place to comment on it. In the end, some of you are going to support the online shops exclusively, and that's your decision. Some are going to support local B&M's where they see fit and that's their choice. Some may do both, by all means, do what you like. I'm not telling people to go into a place they don't like, or a place where they are treated inferior, or anything of the sort. All I'm saying is if your local B&M is a nice guy, sells a quality product, and provides a service that applies to you, throw him a bone every once in a while. If not, it's your money, and if your going to shop online, there's nothing I can say to stop you.

I'm really busy for the next few days so I doubt I'll be able to check the thread. In the end, I really do acknowledge everyone's opinion's on here and will definitely make note of them, both positive and negative, and bring attention to it to the powers above me so that your opinions are heard. The cigar message boards are a great way for the manufacturers and end users to stay in a two way communication.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Seangar

Oliva pulled mikes account because he violated his contract. You can't reformat the reason to make it sound stupid to try to make your case. Well I guess you can, because you did. But you now what I mean.

Oliva is making a business decision. First you have to say to yourself. Ok they are not morons. They run a multi-million dollar company. They must have good reasons to have these clauses in their contracts with sellers. I won't repeat them all here but they are listed in the post. Value of cigar. Local shops etc. Etc.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

I haven't read Mike's contract with Olivia .... have you?

Sound stupid? This is about Olivia wanting price fixing and non-competitive selling of their cigars. I disagree with this completely.

I would absolutely NOT say that. I have not met the Olivias to say one way or the other. However, idiotic business decisions are made all over this country on a daily basis. Can you say "New Coke?".

Some competitor squealed on Mike's and complained that they were undercutting their price. I prefer capitalism and competition in the marketplace, not communistic pricing practices. I won't buy more Olivias as a result of this, but I doubt that will make a dime's difference in their bottom line. I really don't care, it is the principle.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Take this with a grain of salt as I am not a business major and know very little if anything about the legality of price fixing, and or what would qualify as price fixing.

I only have two words to say about this, Rocky Patel. He not only let the competition flourish, he encouraged it. Now most people here I think will agree that his cigars have suffered in quality over the years and many, including myself, will agree that at least on the vintage line he has tweaked his blends for the worse. Now anyone who knows anything about internet sales knows that you can find OWR for about half of MSRP or less online. So tell me, why would you pay anything close to MSRP at a B&M for the same cigar? A few dollars is one thing but I personally would feel like I was throwing my money down the toilet if I did this. Even if I did really have a craving for one, enough so to pay over MSRP including taxes, I would never buy more than one. This seems to have drastically hurt his business long term. I know that personally I only have a few of his blends that I still enjoy and even then I would never pay MSRP for them.

If closing out this account and trying to get retailers to sell close to MSRP will keep oliva producing high quality delicious cigars than I feel like I can't complain too much. On top of that, Oliva cigars are well known and well liked because they are consistently good and very reasonably priced. As far as price fixing goes, they are trying to protect their business model long term. May not be something that I would necessarily do but IMHO they do have the right to do what they please with their company.

p.s. thanks for reading my probably unnecessarily long post;)

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

:r :r :r

Exactly!

Thank god for monoprice.com :D

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Spot on Ian, it is very difficult for most of us to remove the emotional aspect of this argument however your point is the key to all of this.

Ladies and gentlemen this is whatis at the core of the risk the local B&Ms face these days.

Try running a business with the associated overhead and pay 20 to 40% in taxes vs the guy who doesn't incur the same fixed costs and is immune to the taxes, this is not the invisible hand of economics at work here, this is the 800 lb gorilla sitting in the living room...

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

I can also say that I will usually go for an Internet sale over my local B&M's.

Out of the ones that are conveniently local to me I have these style shops:

A) The shop with the killer selection but condescending staff. (I was so mistreated recently by one that I refuse to support them even though they have all the cool high-end stuff, I'll smoke black and milds before I patronize them.)

B) The little Mom and Pop with the nice staff but poor selection and/or poor storage conditions.

C) The hole in the wall "Tobacco Emporium" that does more business in rolling papers and Camels than premium cigars.

None of them offer me any extra value for the extra money spent. None have any "lounge" to speak of (one has a "member's area" :rolleyes:).

There are some that are on the other side of the city or in the burbs that are nice, one has an excellent lounge area and one has a really great coffee bar. Another that I used to frequent and spend quite a bit of cash in closed up. And if I am in the area I will swing in and always buy at least one stick. But they are just too far away to frequent.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

I would absolutely NOT say that. I have not met the Olivias to say one way or the other. However, idiotic business decisions are made all over this country on a daily basis. Can you say "New Coke?".

I don't mean to get off topic but a big part of what I do is market research, campaigns and the New Coke idea is generally recognized as one of the greatest marketing coups of all time. Easily one of the Top 10.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

I stand corrected. You are much smarter than the guys at oliva, they are stupid, you have considered every possible business situation. Forgive my Impertinence, I will no longer doubt you.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Oliva is practicing free market capitalism. Choosing who they sell to and how their product is marketed. Sorry to doubt you again, but check your definitions of communism

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

SeanGar's response is arguing ideas and stating his point of view.
Your reply is personal.

Let's keep the personal insults out of this.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Funny thing...late yesterday afternoon while sitting on my back deck, I was smoking an Oliva Master Blend, listening to music which was coming at me through my Bose outdoor speakers, when I looked at my Rolex to see how long I had been sitting there absolutley enjoying myself. Life was pretty damn good.

I only wish I had known how much of a complete jackass I was for thinking I had anything worth owning. Thank you all for straightening me out. I knew I came to this place for a reason.

:sleep:

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

I'm just amazed how many people here are anti-B&M.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Read my blasted post and stop trying to put words into my mouth.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

I don't think its "Anti-B&M".

I for one just need a good reason to support any business, smoke shops are no different than groceries, cars or furniture. Price is always considered but not always the determining factor.

I bought my last car from a dealer who offered me value for the added price over dealer "A".

Chas

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Wade, I think I read in one of your posts that you may work at a B&M, and I know FFF spends time at one. I can't say I hate them, just have no use for one in my world as they stand in my area. As a business/business model they don't offer me any service other than a quick cigar pick up that I can use. While I have had some issues with treatment, it was not the norm.

On the other hand, it is the business's responsibility to know and provide what the customer base wants, other wise why be in business? One example, most people want fast, cheap, clean shopping, Walmart provides that to the masses that have those needs. Most likely if there was a B&M that provided what I thought would make a good one, I would frequent it.

I am a bit amazed as you have indicated that so many others are not as happy as well for what ever reason with B&Ms. Sort of thought I was in the minority at first. A lot of people here definitely don't seem to be happy with what's available to them in their areas. Threads like this are good IMO. People who work in the industry can see what trend, feelings, etc may be out there and react to it.

My perfect B&M :ss:

1. Allow bourbon, either club style with my name on the bottle or sell it. ABC rules being what they are, maybe not a possibility, but a few here have mentioned drinks in their B&Ms.
2. A price I can afford to buy your stock. I'll pay more for perceived value.
3. Good chow at the B&M or walking distance near by.
4. No wet cigars.
5. Be knowledgeable about your stock/hobby for I am not.
6. Be like Hooters - Be happy I came to your establishment, dump the elitist or snoby rich hobby attitudes.
7. We have good manners here and can teach others. Allow outside smokes, we're still gonna buy from you. Support Herfing. I give someone a Oliva G, they like it, walk over to the counter and buy 3 more. Win - Win.

Maybe a dream list, but for me this would be a B&M to visit.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

HAHAHAH... that is hilarious! RG bump!

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

You forgot the strippers.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

I am "trying" to keep my cost down :dance:

But if you insist, they are ok with me. i don't mind helping the college girls pay a little tuition. :r

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Exactly. I rarely buy from B&M's, and one of the reasons why is not just price, but what any business has to offer. I never understood why most B&M's try to focus on the price point of their product when you can easily and readily get it over the internet. This is an uphill battle, and one you probably will not win. What gets customers in is that extra service, that something unique that you can't get anywhere else. If one of my local B&M's had scotch, a tip jar, and decent prices, I would be there at least 3 times a week. But instead they have no booze, and the prices are outragous, even with our already high state tabacoo taxes. Volt made a good list, and if a B&M near me had these, I wouldn't mind being a patron there. But most B&M's don't, and instead of improving service, I meet owners and employees that grumble, give me the stink eye, and be general snobs and asses. If you work at a B&M or know a B&M that has these traits, don't blame the customer base for not going to you, blame yourselves for not providing the right services.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Yeah, I work a day a week at a cigar shop 40 miles from my home, although honestly, that's really not the driving force behind my thoughts on the process. I don't think your list above is at all a "dream" as it surprises me that all are not that way. Other than we don't do food nor allow food carry ins, we do have a great number of restaurants very close by. We DO allow carry in cigars and will never change that policy.

1) we have a very well stocked bar of beer and alcohol
2) No doubt we're more expensive than the internet, but state taxes suck, we all know that. Nor can we buy at their volume.
3) Already covered above.
4) Our humidor is ALWAYS between 64-70%
5) We all are, very much so.
6) Our lounge is very laid back yet comfortable. We have several rooms to accommodate different groups, HDTV, DVD players, music, and microwave for our customers. My customers are college kids, traveling business men/women, tourists, and of course a large contingency of regulars.
7) You're always welcome to bring in your own smokes and banter back and forth with other guests. We do appreciate a purchase in our store before you leave as well, for if everyone just smoked what they brought in, we couldn't pay the bills and the doors would close for good. Then we lose that great atmosphere that we've provided for our guests.

I'm truly sorry that some of you don't have great B&M's that are local for you. We're the only one within 50 miles of us, yet have several in Milwaukee that we go to regularly just to bring a bunch of guys and have a herf and spread the wealth around a bit. B&M's are also very active in WI in fighting statewide no smoking bans.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

I think there is another element to this discussion that has not really been touched upon yet. We cannot directly compare the tobacco industry and it's business models to others. Stereo speakers, watches, and other consumer products all go to market in similar ways, but they do not have the added pressure of direct government regulations and laws trying to stifle the use of their products, or the extra "sin taxes" being thrown at them from all directions. Outside forces are trying to reduce the use of a legal product, and are also taking advantage of a smaller less popular industry with added taxes. In Pittsburgh we are fortunate to have a few very good B&M's. For those of you who do not have the opportunity to frequent a top notch B&M, it's too bad. They are still part of the life line of this industry. Sure, there are good ones and bad ones, and they will thrive or fail with market forces, but to discount the viability of their presence in the industry is short sighted. We collectively need to do everything we can to support all facets of this industry, because eventually there may be nothing left. They are a physical presence of our right to smoke a legal product. There are places trying to prohibit smoking outdoors. Where will it end. I am not promoting shopping at shi$$y B&M's, but I am saying we need to help keep the good ones flourishing. They are the last stand in some states for having a place to smoke in public with other BOTL's. Now, as to the B&M's themselves, many of them also need to get their sh$t together and take a little pride in what they are doing, because we need them. :tu

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

How so?

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Outstanding!....made the previous 4 pages more enjoyable.....:r

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

THANK YOU! I have been in a week long mental lockdown of the site. Bookmarked now. Geez.

As for this topic. I like the thread, has brought out many good points and educated me along the way.

My only addition to this is that it is great to have a site where a topic like this can go on for 100 posts and not turn into WWIII. So far anyway.:r

Just some random ramblings from another Oliva Whore.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Just a quick point to all those calling this price fixing it is not. Price fixing is an illegal practice which occurs when two or more businesses in an area who are in a similar trade like cigars decide they will sell the same product for the same price. So if shop A decided they would sell Oliva G for 5.60 a piece this week so would shop B. then over the weekend the owners of shops A and B would meet and decide the would raise the price of oliva G to an even 6.00 on monday. it would work the same way with price drops too. That would be price fixing. Thats all thank you.

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

I don't want to divert this thread but basically - there is great debate as to whether this was done as a true shift in ideaology for a market leader or to generate fervor in the market.

Honestly we will probably never know, even Robert Goizurta has given contradictory accounts of the build up to its launch, many feel this was done purposely, and unfortunately he succumbed to lung cancer in 97.

My belief is that it was a weighed risk that perhaps didn't fulfill its potential but did create such a fuss that he we are talking about it on a Cigar Forum more than 20 years later.

It is an incredible case study. There is much more to it and I'd be thrilled to point you in the direction of some support material and you let me know what you think!

Thanks for your reply.

Travis

Re: Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.
 

Correct. This is a vertical price restraint. For many years, courts looked very unfavorably on them, but they've recently been analyzed under the rule of reason.