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-   -   First Firearm Thread. (http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=801)

Mark C 06-28-2009 06:49 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Trumpet (Post 443826)
If you're looking for a "target" gun, a lever action ain't it. Sure they're fun, but they're not known for being tack-drivers, and while the ammo isn't hard to find, it's not generally inexpensive (then again, no ammo is inexpensive right now) to shoot. However, leveractions are really cool.

If you're looking for something for longer range casual target shooting, consider looking at a scoped bolt gun in .223 or .308. Better yet, buy a Garand from the CMP and a bunch of ammo. That would satisfy the longer range target shooting and the shorter range plinking needs quite nicely. There's just something about a Garand:2

Where in MD are you?

I realize bolt guns are more accurate than lever, that's fine with me. I've got a benchrest 10/22 to scratch the 'tack driver' itch, there's just something about the old school lever action that's calling to me. What I meant by 'target' is that I'll be shooting at paper only, 'minute of paper plate' is good enough for me right now. I was reading up on the Marlin 45-70 lever gun earlier today, now I'm thinking big bore lever would be even more fun :)

Garand would be great, but out of my price range. I do have a milsurp itch also, I've got a C&R app waiting to be mailed and plans for a Mosin as soon as the paperwork comes back.

I'm in Harford county, little ways outside of Aberdeen. Where're you? I'm using the same name at www.mdshooters.com, great forum for all things firearms in MD. Check it out if you haven't already.

Trumpet 06-28-2009 06:56 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark C (Post 444048)
I realize bolt guns are more accurate than lever, that's fine with me. I've got a benchrest 10/22 to scratch the 'tack driver' itch, there's just something about the old school lever action that's calling to me. What I meant by 'target' is that I'll be shooting at paper only, 'minute of paper plate' is good enough for me right now. I was reading up on the Marlin 45-70 lever gun earlier today, now I'm thinking big bore lever would be even more fun :)

Garand would be great, but out of my price range. I do have a milsurp itch also, I've got a C&R app waiting to be mailed and plans for a Mosin as soon as the paperwork comes back.

I'm in Harford county, little ways outside of Aberdeen. Where're you? I'm using the same name at www.mdshooters.com, great forum for all things firearms in MD. Check it out if you haven't already.

CMP prices should put a Garand within reach...less than a Marlin 45-70. I'm down here in Brandywine. I'm also "Trumpet" on MDshooters although I spend more time at ARFCOM

Wolfgang 06-28-2009 09:19 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Monte 2 and Springfield XDM Makes Wolfie a happy boy.

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m...0/Agoodday.jpg

Trumpet 06-29-2009 06:42 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark C (Post 444048)
I realize bolt guns are more accurate than lever, that's fine with me. I've got a benchrest 10/22 to scratch the 'tack driver' itch, there's just something about the old school lever action that's calling to me. What I meant by 'target' is that I'll be shooting at paper only, 'minute of paper plate' is good enough for me right now. I was reading up on the Marlin 45-70 lever gun earlier today, now I'm thinking big bore lever would be even more fun :)

Garand would be great, but out of my price range. I do have a milsurp itch also, I've got a C&R app waiting to be mailed and plans for a Mosin as soon as the paperwork comes back.

I'm in Harford county, little ways outside of Aberdeen. Where're you? I'm using the same name at www.mdshooters.com, great forum for all things firearms in MD. Check it out if you haven't already.

This is more than you were looking to spend, but for a complete package (rifle/scope/harris bipod/stock pack) it's a pretty good deal...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=93&t=696489

giono2 06-29-2009 08:59 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfgang (Post 444217)
Monte 2 and Springfield XDM Makes Wolfie a happy boy.

How do you like the XDM, and what caliber did you get? I'm currently looking at it in 9mm.

Mark C 06-30-2009 08:36 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Trumpet (Post 444052)
CMP prices should put a Garand within reach...less than a Marlin 45-70. I'm down here in Brandywine. I'm also "Trumpet" on MDshooters although I spend more time at ARFCOM

I took a look and some of the lower grades are pretty affordable, but the descriptions don't sound all that great. Are they really as bad as CMP makes 'em sound? I'm talking about the rack/field/service grade stock.

Wolfgang 06-30-2009 09:44 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by giono2 (Post 445620)
How do you like the XDM, and what caliber did you get? I'm currently looking at it in 9mm.

It wasnt mine. Bt it was chambered in .45 I believe. The grip was too long to be a comfortable CCW.

elderboy02 06-30-2009 09:53 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
I want to get a Remington 700 in a .308 chambering. The only thing keeping me from getting one is a lack of good ranges around by me. The place I shoot at is only 25 yards :mad:

TanithT 06-30-2009 09:59 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
What's the legality of putting guns in the WTS/T area here? I have an annoying number of collector's rifles that I really don't need.

elderboy02 06-30-2009 10:01 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TanithT (Post 447136)
What's the legality of putting guns in the WTS/T area here? I have an annoying number of collector's rifles that I really don't need.

The mods won't allow it.

See rule 8: http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=65

replicant_argent 06-30-2009 10:02 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TanithT (Post 447136)
What's the legality of putting guns in the WTS/T area here? I have an annoying number of collector's rifles that I really don't need.

Not horribly kosher, I would guess, the ToE would probably not like to incur any kind of legal liablility.

pnoon 06-30-2009 10:02 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TanithT (Post 447136)
What's the legality of putting guns in the WTS/T area here? I have an annoying number of collector's rifles that I really don't need.

No go. From the sticky aptly named "Rules for wts/wtb/wtt threads"

Quote:

Originally Posted by poker (Post 624)


We have also had to restrict any trading or selling of firearms or firearm accessories and alcohol items.


TanithT 06-30-2009 10:03 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Understood and respected.

pnoon 06-30-2009 10:03 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TanithT (Post 447143)
Understood and respected.

Much appreciated.

elderboy02 06-30-2009 10:04 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Anyone know of a site that has Speer Gold Dots in stock? I am running low on .38spl +p Gold Dots and the only site I can find that has them in stock is AmmunitionToGo and they are a bit overpriced.

replicant_argent 06-30-2009 10:08 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by elderboy02 (Post 447146)
Anyone know of a site that has Speer Gold Dots in stock? I am running low on .38spl +p Gold Dots and the only site I can find that has them in stock is AmmunitionToGo and they are a bit overpriced.

This might help you out, brother.
http://www.ammoengine.com/find/ammo/.38_Special

elderboy02 06-30-2009 10:10 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by replicant_argent (Post 447160)
This might help you out, brother.
http://www.ammoengine.com/find/ammo/.38_Special

Thanks for the website. :tu Surprisingly, I have not seen that site before.

Trumpet 07-01-2009 05:42 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark C (Post 447033)
I took a look and some of the lower grades are pretty affordable, but the descriptions don't sound all that great. Are they really as bad as CMP makes 'em sound? I'm talking about the rack/field/service grade stock.

As a CMP customer, it's pretty safe to say the undergrade their rifles. Yes the stocks can be a little dinged, but in 90+% of the cases it's from storage. BUT when you consider what you see at gunshows ad gunshops (which are usually CMP rifles being marked up a lot) they are a steal. They are a wonderful piece American history, will appreciate in value (Stay AWAY from the new SA INC Garands. SA INC has NOTHING to do with the old Springfield Armory), and are a blast to shoot. They always get attention at the range. FWIW, I believe the CMP also still has M1 carbines and Mossberg M44 .22 Trainers in stock. I am a loyal CMP customer. I just need to get some Garand pics.

floydpink 07-01-2009 07:22 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by elderboy02 (Post 447146)
Anyone know of a site that has Speer Gold Dots in stock? I am running low on .38spl +p Gold Dots and the only site I can find that has them in stock is AmmunitionToGo and they are a bit overpriced.

Ammo to go is the only place I have been able to find the Short Barrel Gold dots as well and unless I am reading it wrong, Replicant's link directs you to them....

Trumpet 07-01-2009 08:11 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
another good source for ammo prices etc.

http://www.gun-deals.com/ammo.php

Junior 07-01-2009 08:52 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark C (Post 444048)
I realize bolt guns are more accurate than lever, that's fine with me. I've got a benchrest 10/22 to scratch the 'tack driver' itch, there's just something about the old school lever action that's calling to me. What I meant by 'target' is that I'll be shooting at paper only, 'minute of paper plate' is good enough for me right now. I was reading up on the Marlin 45-70 lever gun earlier today, now I'm thinking big bore lever would be even more fun :)

Garand would be great, but out of my price range. I do have a milsurp itch also, I've got a C&R app waiting to be mailed and plans for a Mosin as soon as the paperwork comes back.

I'm in Harford county, little ways outside of Aberdeen. Where're you? I'm using the same name at www.mdshooters.com, great forum for all things firearms in MD. Check it out if you haven't already.

a lot of the cowboy action shooters use the 45-70 guns in long range stuff. Somewhere in the 300 yard range, and smaller targets.

Trumpet 07-01-2009 09:12 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Junior (Post 447532)
a lot of the cowboy action shooters use the 45-70 guns in long range stuff. Somewhere in the 300 yard range, and smaller targets.

When I did SASS, the 38-55 was more popular for the long range stuff. Lighter recoil, flatter shooting, yada yada. 45-70 is a blast, but unless you reload, you better have some deeeep pockets.

You could look at a Winchester 1895 in 30-06 (Mmmmmmmm), but then you're in new custom AR-15, pristine collector grade M1 Garands, etc.

You might want to take a look at a Marlin 1894 Cowboy (I loved mine) in .357 or .45LC. Also, the Rossi Puma is a VERY nice levergun and doesn't have the historically incorrect and ugly crossbolt safety.

TheManWithNoName 07-10-2009 09:28 PM

G36 Range Report and BOTL Shenanigans
 
Well today I took my new Glock 36 (Subcompact, slim single-stack mag, 6+1 .45 ACP capacity) down to the range for its second session, and BOTL Aldrin (s0leful0ne) and another friend came along. Well, the G36 now has 125 rounds through it, 230 grain cheap FMJ's and hollow points, and has been absolutely perfect. :tu I mean not one problem at all. I had read online how some people had trouble with stiff magazine springs and not being able to load the last few rounds: absolutely not an issue. I did load the mags up and let them sit for two days before I used them, but even that first day it was not a problem. For such a light gun, it handles the big .45's recoil very well, with tight groupings out at 7 yards. I would recommend this G36 to anyone and everyone, it is by a small margin the slimmest Glock made and has excellent carry dimensions (only 1.13" wide). :dance:

Now this was Aldrin's very first shooting session, and I am pleased to have been there. The man was a champ. He started off with a .22 Ruger Mk II or something that was jam city until the employee came and cleaned it for him, but he got his safety mindset, grip and stance down cold and was very accurate a good ways past the 7 yard mark. Then he made a bit (:banger) of a jump and went straight from the .22 to my .45 with no problem. Handled it like a champ. Since he was understandably underwhelmed by the .22 we also rented a Sig P226 9mm which he handled and fired like a pro. Hopefully we'll get some Gator shooting herfs going once a month or so and make this a regular deal.

So bottom line: love my G36. Probably won't buy anything else for several years at least because I'm so happy with it. Had a great time shooting with Aldrin, was really glad to be able to help him try this experience since he's been so generous pushing me down the cigar slope and smacked me hard with a great selection of cigars for my birthday a few weeks ago. Hopefully we'll be going back soon with fellow Gator BOTL Mike (UFPowerSmoker320) who'll also get to handle Mr. 36. Anyway just thought I'd let y'all know what kind of Friday we can pull off around here sometimes :ss.

P.S. If y'all .45 Auto fans want to weigh in here with advice on ammo, please do. Right now I have 165 grain Glaser/Safety Slug +P Pow'R Ball (polymer-ball capped hollowpoints, yeah that's a ***** of a name) in one mag and Remington Golden Saber 230 grain hollowpoints in the other (tested a box of these today, no problems). Feel confident about the both of them.

elderboy02 07-10-2009 09:31 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
^ Cool :tu

I too love the Glocks. I have the G20 (10mm) which is loads of fun and the G23 (.40)

TheManWithNoName 07-11-2009 07:34 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by elderboy02 (Post 459362)
^ Cool :tu

I too love the Glocks. I have the G20 (10mm) which is loads of fun and the G23 (.40)

True that man, want to shoot that 10mm soon, hear it's really a powerhouse. :tu

s0leful0ne 07-12-2009 03:52 AM

Re: G36 Range Report and BOTL Shenanigans
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheManWithNoName (Post 459356)
Well today I took my new Glock 36 (Subcompact, slim single-stack mag, 6+1 .45 ACP capacity) down to the range for its second session, and BOTL Aldrin (s0leful0ne) and another friend came along. Well, the G36 now has 125 rounds through it, 230 grain cheap FMJ's and hollow points, and has been absolutely perfect. :tu I mean not one problem at all. I had read online how some people had trouble with stiff magazine springs and not being able to load the last few rounds: absolutely not an issue. I did load the mags up and let them sit for two days before I used them, but even that first day it was not a problem. For such a light gun, it handles the big .45's recoil very well, with tight groupings out at 7 yards. I would recommend this G36 to anyone and everyone, it is by a small margin the slimmest Glock made and has excellent carry dimensions (only 1.13" wide). :dance:

Now this was Aldrin's very first shooting session, and I am pleased to have been there. The man was a champ. He started off with a .22 Ruger Mk II or something that was jam city until the employee came and cleaned it for him, but he got his safety mindset, grip and stance down cold and was very accurate a good ways past the 7 yard mark. Then he made a bit (:banger) of a jump and went straight from the .22 to my .45 with no problem. Handled it like a champ. Since he was understandably underwhelmed by the .22 we also rented a Sig P226 9mm which he handled and fired like a pro. Hopefully we'll get some Gator shooting herfs going once a month or so and make this a regular deal.

So bottom line: love my G36. Probably won't buy anything else for several years at least because I'm so happy with it. Had a great time shooting with Aldrin, was really glad to be able to help him try this experience since he's been so generous pushing me down the cigar slope and smacked me hard with a great selection of cigars for my birthday a few weeks ago. Hopefully we'll be going back soon with fellow Gator BOTL Mike (UFPowerSmoker320) who'll also get to handle Mr. 36. Anyway just thought I'd let y'all know what kind of Friday we can pull off around here sometimes :ss.

P.S. If y'all .45 Auto fans want to weigh in here with advice on ammo, please do. Right now I have 165 grain Glaser/Safety Slug +P Pow'R Ball (polymer-ball capped hollowpoints, yeah that's a ***** of a name) in one mag and Remington Golden Saber 230 grain hollowpoints in the other (tested a box of these today, no problems). Feel confident about the both of them.

when can we go again?

:)

elderboy02 07-12-2009 09:27 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheManWithNoName (Post 460185)
True that man, want to shoot that 10mm soon, hear it's really a powerhouse. :tu

Surprisingly, the recoil isn't that bad. I feel it is more than the .40, but less than a .357 mag

:gn

elderboy02 07-12-2009 09:27 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Also, thanks to the team of 11 for giving us a gun smiley! :tu

:gn

Junior 07-13-2009 11:57 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Trumpet (Post 447561)
When I did SASS, the 38-55 was more popular for the long range stuff. Lighter recoil, flatter shooting, yada yada. 45-70 is a blast, but unless you reload, you better have some deeeep pockets.

You could look at a Winchester 1895 in 30-06 (Mmmmmmmm), but then you're in new custom AR-15, pristine collector grade M1 Garands, etc.

You might want to take a look at a Marlin 1894 Cowboy (I loved mine) in .357 or .45LC. Also, the Rossi Puma is a VERY nice levergun and doesn't have the historically incorrect and ugly crossbolt safety.

I like the Marlin Cowboy, but wouldn't use the Rossi for more that a paperweight. My favorite lever gun is my Cimarron 1866 carbine with a complete racegun action job, and short stroke kit. It is smooth as butter.

My problem with the Rossi is that it is unreliable as all get out. I have seen more people have problems with them at shoots than any other gun.

Trumpet 07-14-2009 05:17 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Junior (Post 463150)
I like the Marlin Cowboy, but wouldn't use the Rossi for more that a paperweight. My favorite lever gun is my Cimarron 1866 carbine with a complete racegun action job, and short stroke kit. It is smooth as butter.

My problem with the Rossi is that it is unreliable as all get out. I have seen more people have problems with them at shoots than any other gun.

Yeah, I should have specified that the Rossi is only good if it's been worked over. I've been out of SASS for a while, and I don't remember the guy's name, but there's a guy who specialized in Rossis and does one smokin' job on them.

Mark C 07-14-2009 09:01 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
I'm still waiting and watching for a good deal on a Marlin to come along... but just agreed to buy a Mosin 91/30 from another local guy. Can't wait to pick it up this weekend.

Trumpet 07-15-2009 04:50 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark C (Post 464504)
I'm still waiting and watching for a good deal on a Marlin to come along... but just agreed to buy a Mosin 91/30 from another local guy. Can't wait to pick it up this weekend.

LOVE my M44. BOOOOOM! They're lots of fun and suprisingly accurate

Bruins Fan 07-15-2009 09:06 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Two of my hunting guns.
Top Mossberg 500 that I bought when steel shot went into affect.
I painted the stock and traded a goose for the parkerizing job.
Bottom is a 1948 Winchester model 12 my upland game gun, I been shooting this one for over 40 seasons, yeah I'm an old bastage :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...88/guns001.jpg

elderboy02 07-15-2009 09:09 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruins Fan (Post 465012)
Two of my hunting guns.
Top Mossberg 500 that I bought when steel shot went into affect.
I painted the stock and traded a goose for the parkerizing job.
Bottom is a 1948 Winchester model 12 my upland game gun, I been shooting this one for over 40 seasons, yeah I'm an old bastage :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...88/guns001.jpg

Nice! I am thinking about picking up a Mossberg. :gn

Bruins Fan 07-15-2009 09:19 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Mossbergs are the Timex of guns, I have filled it with mud, used it as a canoe paddle, clean it and your good to go.
I don't think there is a another gun more reliable?
I know they had the military contract for years.

JE3146 07-15-2009 09:23 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruins Fan (Post 465034)
Mossbergs are the Timex of guns, I have filled it with mud, used it as a canoe paddle, clean it and your good to go.
I don't think there is a another gun more reliable?
I know they had the military contract for years.

*cough*.... automat kalashnikov 47 ;)

elderboy02 07-15-2009 09:25 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JE3146 (Post 465040)
*cough*.... automat kalashnikov 47 ;)

*cough* Glocks :tu

JE3146 07-15-2009 09:39 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by elderboy02 (Post 465044)
*cough* Glocks :tu

Yea but try using a glock as a canoe paddle :r

elderboy02 07-15-2009 09:41 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JE3146 (Post 465070)
Yea but try using a glock as a canoe paddle :r

You can use a Hi-Point as a paddle. Those things are big and fugly. :r

BC-Axeman 07-15-2009 09:50 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by elderboy02 (Post 465073)
You can use a Hi-Point as a paddle. Those things are big and fugly. :r

That got me to laugh. :)

Trumpet 07-15-2009 04:06 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by elderboy02 (Post 465044)
*cough* Glocks :tu

*cough* Ka-boom!

:fu

elderboy02 07-15-2009 04:22 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Trumpet (Post 465579)
*cough* Ka-boom!

:fu

Hater :hf

Trumpet 07-15-2009 04:34 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by elderboy02 (Post 465594)
Hater :hf

Actually, I love my G19. More of a 1911 guy though.....altough I want an M&P

elderboy02 07-15-2009 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trumpet (Post 465601)
Actually, I love my G19. More of a 1911 guy though.....altough I want an M&P

I have the M&P 9mm. I hate to admit it b/c I am a Glock fanboy, but I
think it shoots better than the Glock.
Posted via Mobile Device

Junior 07-15-2009 10:50 PM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
The M&P is great, I love mine. They only have one downfall. They have a habit of rusting a little bit if you don't keep the oiled. With that all said alot of the local LEOs are going to them. Shooting a Fish & Wildlife officer sold me on mine.

BC-Axeman 07-16-2009 07:43 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Junior (Post 466159)
The M&P is great, I love mine. They only have one downfall. They have a habit of rusting a little bit if you don't keep the oiled. With that all said alot of the local LEOs are going to them. Shooting a Fish & Wildlife officer sold me on mine.

:eek:What!?!

Junior 07-16-2009 08:18 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BC-Axeman (Post 466553)
:eek:What!?!

It was late. I meant shooting with an F&W officer. Wow no more post after 10 for me.

I was at a family birthday party last weekend, and my nephew came up to me to show me his new 380 that he thought was the greatest thing. Guess what brand it was.

That’s right it was a jimenez arms 380. I hope he is just planning on trying to hit them in the head with it.

elderboy02 07-16-2009 08:20 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Junior (Post 466607)
It was late. I meant shooting with an F&W officer. Wow no more post after 10 for me.

I was at a family birthday party last weekend, and my nephew came up to me to show me his new 380 that he thought was the greatest thing. Guess what brand it was.

That’s right it was a jimenez arms 380. I hope he is just planning on trying to hit them in the head with it.

:rolleyes: Not only is it a poor caliber, it is a junk gun.

I hope it works for him

Thrak 07-16-2009 08:40 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
The .380 has its place... I wouldnt call it a poor caliber, especially with todays modern ammo.

elderboy02 07-16-2009 08:49 AM

Re: First Firearm Thread.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thrak (Post 466636)
The .380 has its place... I wouldnt call it a poor caliber, especially with todays modern ammo.

Point taken,

When I have time, I will try to find the link from ar15.com where a member on there had a crazy lady come into his work. His boss unloaded an entire mag of .380 on her and didn't kill her.

I will look tonight.

But, you can say that all ammo has some problems with it. I can see that the .380 has its place, just not something I will trust my life with.


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