Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Still waiting for some more of the guys from the lounge to comment and support your position. If anyone has and I missed it please excuse me and link me to the posts.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Can't we all just 100% agree with Legend so this goes away... PLEASE!!!

I will start it out... I 100% believe that B&M smokes are better than big internet guy smokes!!

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

:tpd: I agree...I swear!

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

They are professionals Al, we are mere mortals that cannot tell the difference between great and really great because we lack the proper tastebud developmental techniquies to differentiate 100% of the time. :tu

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

See, here's the problem. You have presented not a single lucid argument as to why a manufacturer would degrade the quality of a brand name product for one market stream versus the other.

Not one.

When straws are tossed by others (the dress example) you grasp them as if they're gold, without using any thought whatsoever as to whether they make comparative sense at all.

Market segmentation exists in the cigar industry. Everybody knows that. Manufacturers make lower quality "value" lines all the time. We know they are not the same cigars as the higher end stuff. Everybody knows this but this has absolutely nothing do to with your thesis, that manufacturers have 2 quality lines OF THE EXACT SAME CIGAR for different market segments.

Now, I tossed you a bone. I presented explanations for your observations. Doesn't seem to me that you have given them much consideration. On the other hand, this shouldn't have been a surprise, when presented with a maxim used for 700 years, you make a dismissive comment.

YOU have established exactly nothing here, save perhaps that you are interested in getting to China with your shovel. You have presented no argument of value to change my mind.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Even if this were to be true, couldn't you just let the internet cigars sit in your humidor for a couple months to bring them up to par with what a B&M sells?

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Please! Someone stop the madness! :bh

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

http://localrhythms.files.wordpress....hair-out-2.jpg

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t..._PIsitb-st.jpg:r

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

So I was right the only lucid arguement in your mind is yours and you will never see another point of view even as a possibility. Thanks for confirming that.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

:r

Your point of view (opinion) was presented in the first post here. The fact that others don't agree or question the credibility of your assertions has little to do with "seeing another point of view". It's a matter of the assertions lack of traction based upon facts in evidence and our personal experiences. Not an opposing point of view, but the lack of credibility of yours. No one is asserting that internet cigars are better than B&M's. Not agreeing with you is not the same as not being able to see your point of view.

What cigars have you found to be better at the B&M than from the internet? How long did you own them before smoking them and making these judgments? And, did you buy singles on the internet or boxes of them?

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Ad hominem argument....not a good way to make your point.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

If you came up with an argument that was convincing of course I could be persuaded to change my mind. I mentioned this already.

What I'm looking for is a series of statements backing up your thesis. Data would be helpful. For example, you suggest a number of times that B&Ms would be better markets for a cigar manufacturer. How so? How many boxes would your B&M buy of a specific cigar .. lets say Rocky Patel Decade torpedo as an example ... compared to CI? Neither you nor I know the prices that Rocky charges CI or B&Ms, but volume discounts are typical in many industries and they are rarely hidden. Why is the B&M a better customer? One would kind of think CI would sell a few more decades than your B&M, no? Wouldn't the manufacturer think their best customer is the one pushing the most boxes .. not necessarily the one with the cushy leather seats and flat screens?

That is a question, answer at leisure.

Remember, if Patel makes 40 bucks a box on 25 boxes your B&M buys, they make 1000 bucks. If they make 5 bucks a box on 3000 boxes CI buys, they make 15 grand. Sales volume often drives profit. Yet, your thesis is that better quality RP Decade torps are going to the B&M because they are better customers. Maybe the total cigar volume sales are wildly in the B&M favor because there are so many of them. Dunno. You have any numbers on sales volumes for big internet retailers v.s combined B&Ms?

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

The fact is that neither side is provable and I never looked for agreement. Only discussion. I acknowledged the possibility of my opinion being wrong and some of the merits of the other side. Others here gave their opinion and said the other side was impossible. And mocked. The fact remains its unprovable. You don't have to agree but its just arrogantly stupid to require proof or convincing to, at a minimum, acknowledge the possibility.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I know a guy that has a humidor he bought from a lounge.

BTW, it has a few really nice cigars in it.

I don't think he got them from the local B&M but I might be wrong.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Al - you're only wrong on days ending in the letter Y. ;)

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Come here you height challenged bundle of love so I can give ya a http://img118.exs.cx/img118/1691/hug8ok.gif

So he does get them from a B&M? :hm

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

:r

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

These posts are always ammusing to read. No one ever takes opposing opinions very well.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I TAKE GREAT EXCEPTION TO THAT REMARK!








:r:r

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I don't know specifically why the B&M customer is worthy or considered more valuable, but nick perdomo. Rocky patel. La aurora and don pepin are hosting guys from our lounge at a considerable loss within the last year. Have all visited our lounge at least once in the last year. Eddie Ortega when I spoke with him said "I don't want to just sell to CI, Thompson and famous.". I don't have the numbers, but it would seem that these guys consider the local shops very valuable.
I believe that is a lucid conclusion. Please correct my dimentia if I'm wrong.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

That may be a lucid conclusion, but you may also have lucid dreams:r
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6lBx...eature=related


I have a feeling this thread will reach 1000 posts easily:r

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Oh, sure, Sean, use logic. Real nice.

Seriously though, what is Ortega going to say when visiting a B&M...."I don't really care about these places, I make the real money from CI and Thompson."? Of course not. And I am sure that the B&Ms are valued by Rocky, Nick, etc, but to the point of forgoing the internet/catalog retailers? Not a chance.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Oh I'm certain that you're right in concluding that the cigar manufacturers consider the B&Ms and their customers to be valuable. And I sometimes go to my local B&M simply to meet with reps and their rollers when they come to town. DPG, NP, CF or RP come to town and cigar smokers get excited and want to meet the legends in the industry. They come to the shop and besides chatting, buy cigars, maybe they try some new ones that they will like and buy. This is just part of the advertising that cigar manufacturers are involved with, as are online web sites.

But I was thinking "more valuable" in the sense of where do the profits originate from ... B&Ms or big internet shops. I'm personally inclined to think the profit split is not vastly unbalanced, if we combine all B&M sales v.s. all internet sales. This would suggest that manufacturers pay attention to and care about both models of sales. Which would argue against one getting better quality than the other.

Another thing that I was thinking about today is that often the first release of a cigar is superior to subsequent releases. Lets look at an example: La Aurora cien anos. I was not as excited about the last box I had (smoked ROTT) compared to ones I had when they were first released (smoked ROTT). My B&M has one of the first release boxes hidden away (you need to do some serious rooting or ask for them to find them). I bought one of those and liked it better than my recent box purchase. Was this due to some quality stratification at the manufacturer - B&M v.s. internet, as you suggest? Was it due to age? Was it because those B&M cigars were the first release? In the latter case, it is likely that the first release cigars are available longer at B&Ms than online - make sense?

Only the shadow knows.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Valid point. My only addendum would be that the locals are the shop that are in danger of going out of business and this would make you want to give them more attention or an edge. That is where the more valuable comes in they know there are a ton of guys who only smoke socially and would not order on the net or just don't do the "internet thing".

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Eddies comment was unsolicited. We were discussing business and I explained how mine had started with a very large customer and I had concentrated on building many small customers so that one leaving me would never effect me. To which he responded "of course" and the rest of the quote. He was not catering to a local guy he was just talking business.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I just had a good B&M. Self stirring when complete. :tu

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Even better if you have some steel cut oats and thick cut crispy bacon the day before.:tu

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Nah. Today will be better.
Beer, corned beef and cabbage.
mmmmmmmmm :pn

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Local liquor store or warehouse for the beer?

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Oh yeah! Nothing like beer and cabbage to get things moving. :ss

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Finally, something we can all agree on. :pn

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I will be able to smell yours on the east coast. Happy St Patrick's Day my friend.:tu

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Likewise, Paul. :)

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

This is only true if you assume that the departure of that B&M creates a vacuum in the market that is not filled after it is out of business. There is a convenience factor to the guys that smoke socially to buy their sticks at the B&M so that is where they smoke and therefore that is where they buy.

Saying that they would then quit their cigar smoking outright as a result of not having the B&M is likely a stretch for 100% of them. Now of those I am sure many of them also buy online, otherwise this conversation you have had with your fellow lounge members would never have transpired (after all if they all bought there sticks at the B&M there would be no basis of comparison). I would argue that although many of them may reduce their consumption that they would not stop outright.

I don't think the "internet thing" is a fad nor is it an elitist or exclusionary group, e commerce continues to grow which is both good and bad for the consumer depending on your personal profile, for me its great, if I never had to go to another store I would be happy. Assuming I am getting the same product at the same or better price. I think there are many that have varying degrees of usage of e commerce and that is by either choice or necessity depending on each individual situation.

I would suggest that the internet has increased the breadth of cigar sales as those in markets that don't have a B&M (of which there are many ~ think of rural areas alone) now have access to cigars. On the other side of that I would suggest that manufacturers and retailers have increased the geographical scope of their offering. I am willing to bet that Rob at Tabboo would not have near the geographic penetration with his cigars if it where not for the internet.

I fail to see how any commercial application fits this theory that you propose on same products as in this box of CAO Brazilias at the B&M is of better quality than the exact same brand and type bought at Atlantic online. I as the consumer would find this to be an underhanded unethical approach to doing business as in the end it is the consumer that you are lying too and providing an inferior product too under the same branding.

This logic would imply that rental car companies who buy 1000's and 1000's of cars and trucks are getting a slightly inferior product than the mom and pop dealership that only gets 5 to 10 at a time.

It would imply that 1000's of tons of popcorn that an entertainment facility like a stadium buys is inferior to 100's of pounds the local theater buys.

It would imply that the triple A beef I get from my grocery store is of inferior quality compared to the triple A beef in my butcher shop yet it is graded by the same governmental standards.

It would imply that the cigarettes people buy at wal-mart are of lesser quality than the ones that are purchased at the owner owned convenience store on the corner.

It would imply that the 87 octane fuel I put in my truck at the local Esso station is inferior to the fuel that Esso sells to the local owned gas station.

I can go on and on and on.

While I will not dispute that the cigars from your B&M are better in the moment I think that the notion of different quality levels within the same branding and then sold based on that quality to different retailers is ludicrous.

This thread has no empirical evidence and in my opinion denies simple logic and flies in the face of ethical business practices. If it was uncovered that this was a normal practice for a manufacturer that they where knowingly providing an inferior product to the end consumer via one distribution method or another and concealing that fact from the consumer I would suspect that the repercussions could be legal in nature. If nothing else I can personally guarantee I would never purchase anything from that manufacturer if it was uncovered and I would pass that opinion along to whomever would listen.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Damn.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I like the chat about corned beef and beer. It reminds me to check next St. Patrick's Day to see if this thread is still alive.:chr

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I wasn't trying to imply that the comment was solicited. I was just stating that any good businessman or politician is going to work the crowd he is among at the time, so of course Ortega is going to say how important B&Ms are to him while he is in a B&M. :)

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Wasn't implying, just wanted to give you the context. It was within the realm of a business conversation and not schmoozing.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

:hn http://staythirstymyfriends.com/

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

:r:r:r

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

Oh no :rolleyes:

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

We really are in the Whacko Basket.

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

This actually explains a lot

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

You should see my take of roller blading

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

But there is good news........I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by switching to geico. :D

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

:tpd:
Who says the ol' SilverFox is retired?? :tu

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

I can't believe you all didn't recognize this a long time ago.

the tag line, stay lit, my friends!?!?

Re: stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet
 

If 500 was Legendary, what does 600 make? :rolleyes: