How to Freeze and the Science behind it. Long Post

[SilverFox]

There will be constant discussion around whether or not to freeze your cigars and whether it impacts flavor or not. If the risk of potential damage in the form of burst wrappers, loss of flavor, or drying out is worth taking a risk on having cigar beetles. I have enclosed a couple of the more extreme versions of what happens to cigars after these critters get to them. It can happen in both Cuban and Non-Cuban varieties.

I have had 1st hand experience with cigar beetles on two occasions costing me several fine sticks (ok 4 cigars, but in my mind that is several) and while in the second case the vendor took care of me I have since decided that the money, time, and effor that I put into this hobby in all forms is worth the time to handle incoming inventory properly. As such I have spent considerable time researching the various aspects of cigar beetles and how to kill them.

One of the first things to understand is that although many producers including cubans may flash freeze their cigars that is only one poin on the stop to your humidor. Also cigars are very insulative and given that we do not fully know the quality control of the producer there is risk that eggs are not killed. In addition there are points along the way that beetles can be introduced, secondary wholesaler, vendor, or sadly that fellow BOTL or SOTL that so kindly bombed you are sold you a few sticks. So prevention in my mind is the key.

I have adopted a 100% freeze policy, that means that every stick that enters my house is frozen before being tranferred to my humidors regardless of where they come from or how they are shipped and regardless of outside weather. After two infestations I have never had one single case.

The are many opinions around how long it takes to kill the various stages of beetles. I have read many different forums and finally started searching for research rather than word of mouth. After reading several similar studies with varying degrees of testing and information I settled on one that I felt was most comprehensive for a Cigar Smokers needs.

The study is

Low-temperature as an alternative to fumigation to disinfest stored tobacco of the cigarette beetle, Lasioderma serricorne (F.) (Coleoptera: Anobiidae)

Completed and submitted on April 2005 revised October 2005 as undertaken at the Leaf Tobacco Research Center, Japan Tobacco Inc.

If you want to read it I have it in pdf it is a bit of a dry read but for me it was interesting.

One other thing I did was check the average temperature of my freezer. If you don't have a thermometer I have looked and found that the average temperature of a household freezer is between -12 and -18 degrees Celsius and if you go with the higher temp and work from there there is little risk.

Many people will tell you that the freezing will ruin the taste of the cigars. I have my opinion and that is there is no discernable difference. In addition I have bombed, gifted, traded, sold several hundred cigars to members of this board and others and not one has told me that the cigar tasted like it was "frozen" opinions will vary on this but there is little if any imperical evidence either way.

Last peice before I lay out the process is one excerpt from the white paper, and that is the mortality table for all stages of cigar beetles and various temperatures.

Egg

-20 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 1 hr
-15 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 4 hr
-10 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 12 hr
-5 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 48 hr
0 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 240 hr
5 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 336 hr


Larval

-20 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 1 hr
-15 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 3 hr
-10 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 12 hr
-5 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 96 hr
0 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 288 hr
5 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 336 hr

Acclimated Larval (acclimated at 15 Celsius for 3 months to determine acclimation impact if any)

-20 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 1 hr
-15 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 6 hr
-10 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 24 hr
-5 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 504 hr
0 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 1176 hr
5 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 1680 hr

Pupal

-20 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 1 hr
-15 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 4 hr
-10 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 48 hr
-5 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 288 hr
0 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 840 hr


Adult

-20 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 1 hr
-15 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 2 hr
-10 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 2 hr
-5 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 72 hr
0 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 288 hr
5 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 840 hr

This information is the information I used to determine my process.

Given the insulative properties of a box of cigars I deduced (ok fully guessed) that doubling the time would be sufficient to bring the cigars to the appropriate temperature for the appropriate time. It is important to remember that this was direct exposure to these temperatures for the bugs not nestled into a box of your favorite sticks.

The following is my process based on what I have read and adjusted from the above and others.

1. I vacumm seal my cigars in freezer grade bags ( I use a food saver food vacuum for boxes but be cautious it can crush a spanish cedar box easily) or a straw and lung power for singles. While some folk double bag if you are using food quality freezer grade I don't see a need for this.

2. I then put the cigars in the fridge to slowly lower the temperature closer to the freezing point to prevent possible wrapper bursting from rapid freeze, I also assume (again a guess) that it is gentler on the cigars. I leave them there for 12 hours.

3. I then move the cigars to the freezer where they will stay for 48 hours this ensures that the temperature is reached and any potential bugs are more than dead.

4. The cigars then go back to the fridge to allow for a little slower thaw, this is done for between 12-24 hours.

5. I then remove the cigars from the fridge and keep them in the back and allow them to come up to room temperature (3-5 hours)

6. Out of the bag and back in the humidor where they will rest for a couple of weeks to acclimate to the RH% that I like as would any stick from a vendor.

Here are a couple of pictures of beetles and the damage that they can cause.


Pupal Adult and Larval

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg158/silverfox67/Beetle%20Post/AdultLarvalPupal.jpg?t=1231817896


What used to be some beautiful Cubans

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg158/silverfox67/Beetle%20Post/Damage1.jpg?t=1231817978


What used to be some beautiful Non Cubans

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg158/silverfox67/Beetle%20Post/Damage2-NC.jpg?t=1231818036

The dust beside is what you will see if you suspect beetles and tap your cigar on white paper, the dust is beetle dung.

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg158/silverfox67/Beetle%20Post/Damage3Dust.jpg?t=1231818059






I have tried to cover most everything I could think of and provide some background information, if something is unclear or you have questions please feel free to PM me.

Hope you found this useful.

[GhostRyder]

Great info... I haven't finished reading yet but I'll be starting shortly. However, I wanted to post that those pictures nearly made me cry. Especially the Padrons... so sad.

[Mugen910]

If I keep my cigars at a low temp (high 50's low 60's) will that keep the eggs at bay till they are pyro'd?

[SilverFox]

If I keep my cigars at a low temp (high 50's low 60's) will that keep the eggs at bay till they are pyro'd?

The study notes that they was1% hatch rate in beetles that where maintained at 15.8 degrees Celsius or 60.4 Fahrenheit although this was from a separate study and they were unable to replicate the results. There lowest was 16.4 degrees Celsius or 61.5 Fahrenheit

[M1903A1]

Bump for later reference....

[groogs]

Great post, I am with you Fox, I freeze everything.

[SmoknTaz]

Great info, thanks!

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

i hope im safe at 60degs.

[alley00p]

Great post, Fox! I was greatly saddened to see those pictures of the damaged sticks.

I will be reading your addendum's tomorrow, and I will probably be following your example, especially with sticks that are incoming! :D




:dance::dance::dance:

[ScottishSmoker]

Awesome post...although your pictures made me want to cry...Thanks for the info Shawn!

[Silound]

Excellent post!


Some additional information from my own firsthand experiences:

Beetles will eat or gnaw through anything. This includes cellophane, polypropylene bags, freeze bags from airtight sealers,cork, cedar boxes, cardboard packaging, and (drumroll please).....thin aluminum tubes! Yes, I have found tubes that bear the unmistakable small round holes signifying damage from beetles. I've seen it twice, and that was enough for me to even be cautious about tubos too. The only things I trust are glass and hard rubber, and I don't exactly see many cigars in a glass tube or box these days.

Beetles can and DO hatch at 60*. Some are occasionally capable of sustaining life at very low temperatures (not below freezing however) and will still come back to haunt you. The absolute best insurance is to freeze them for a period of time.

[TomHagen]

very informative reference piece... much appreciated info.

Interesting about the taste factor. That would be the decisive factor for me about freezing.

I probably will not freeze, hoping it will never be me. I open my humis and poke around pretty regularly.

Thanks again.

[livwire68]

I freeze on occasion. Now that I will have a large humi (closet) I will be freezeing all that goes in it! I started the process about a week ago.

[TDK08]

habanos SA since mid 2006 has used industrial freezing which many articles state. Im interested however as ive never frozen before, the freezing will kill beetles and larvae but will all eggs be destroyed if i follow this process? Or will they go dormant and inactive but still live?

[SilverFox]

habanos SA since mid 2006 has used industrial freezing which many articles state. Im interested however as ive never frozen before, the freezing will kill beetles and larvae but will all eggs be destroyed if i follow this process? Or will they go dormant and inactive but still live?

No eggs will not survive see the first portion of the table in red above showing how long at what temp to kill eggs.

[md4958]

and I don't exactly see many cigars in a glass tube or box these days.

.


Cuesta-Rey Fino Sungrown... just off the top of my head


To Shawn:

Thanks for not putting the temps in F for all us Celcius-impared Americans!

[Cigarcop]

To Shawn:

Thanks for not putting the temps in F for all us Celcius-impared Americans!


Heres yah go....Eh

http://www.wbuf.noaa.gov/tempfc.htm

[md4958]

Heres yah go....Eh

http://www.wbuf.noaa.gov/tempfc.htm

Thanks Keith, but as you know, we Americans are notoriously lazy as well... I would really have preferred if Shawn had done it for me... just sayin! :r:r:r

[Langod]

Here you go, so you don't have to go convert on another site:
-20C = -4F
-15C = 5F
-10C = 14F
-5C = 23F
0C = 32F
+5F = 41F
+10C = 50F


Great writeup SilverFox. Thanks. I think I might start freezing my sticks.

[md4958]

Here you go, so you don't have to go convert on another site:
-20C = -4F
-15C = 5F
-10C = 14F
-5C = 23F
0C = 32F
+5F = 41F
+10C = 50F


Great writeup SilverFox. Thanks. I think I might start freezing my sticks.

you guys are really making it difficult and less fun for me to bust Shawn's balls... but thanks for the info!

[SilverFox]

you guys are really making it difficult and less fun for me to bust Shawn's balls... but thanks for the info!


I was initially going to post in degrees Kelvin but I was worried some crazy inmate would put his cigars in the oven.

-20C = 253K

[skibumdc]

I don't freeze, but keep my vino and coolers at or below 60 in winter and 65 during summer.

[Langod]

I was initially going to post in degrees Kelvin but I was worried some crazy inmate would put his cigars in the oven.

-20C = 253K


LOL -- so what's the life expectancy of the beetle (or Inmate) at Absolute Zero?

[Cigarcop]

you guys are really making it difficult and less fun for me to bust Shawn's balls... but thanks for the info!

Thats it Moe..............."No Soup For You" :D

[md4958]

I was initially going to post in degrees Kelvin but I was worried some crazy inmate would put his cigars in the oven.

-20C = 253K
:r:r:r
Thats it Moe..............."No Soup For You"

http://dissonanced.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/the_soup_nazi017.jpg

[wayner123]

No eggs will not survive see the first portion of the table in red above showing how long at what temp to kill eggs.

I have to disagree with you here. I personally have had eggs hatch after freezing twice.

I know you and I have had discussion before about this subject. After you showed me before the information you had, I accepted it and have had no problems. But a couple weeks ago, I had a run in again with a beetle. I know these sticks were frozen and the particular stick was frozen twice. Maybe I am the exception :(

Any thoughts on how this happened?

[md4958]

I have to disagree with you here. I personally have had eggs hatch after freezing twice.

I know you and I have had discussion before about this subject. After you showed me before the information you had, I accepted it and have had no problems. But a couple weeks ago, I had a run in again with a beetle. I know these sticks were frozen and the particular stick was frozen twice. Maybe I am the exception :(

Any thoughts on how this happened?

perhaps they were not frozen for a long enough period?

[wayner123]

perhaps they were not frozen for a long enough period?

I used the exact method that SilverFox laid out the first time. And the second time they were frozen for 96 hours (4 days).

[rack04]

I used the exact method that SilverFox laid out the first time. And the second time they were frozen for 96 hours (4 days).

Could the bettle have come from other sticks? Maybe after you froze?

[wayner123]

Could the bettle have come from other sticks? Maybe after you froze?


That's the only thing I can think of. But I freeze everything now. Incoming from BOTL's and bought sticks. If it did come from some other stick, I didn't see any holes in another cigar. I checked every single cigar.

[14holestogie]

Good post, Shawn. I was always somewhat ambivalent to freezing, until I found one of my sticks (a tubo, no less) with a beetle hole. All stock then went through the freeze and all incoming continues to. I love all my BOTL/SOTL, but still, I don't know where your stuff's been. I do after I freeze them.

[ActionAndy]

That box of Padrons is a nightmare...

[Cyanide]

Good post, Shawn. I was always somewhat ambivalent to freezing, until I found one of my sticks (a tubo, no less) with a beetle hole. All stock then went through the freeze and all incoming continues to. I love all my BOTL/SOTL, but still, I don't know where your stuff's been. I do after I freeze them.

Are we going to have to start considering cigar condoms?

[SmokinApe]

I was getting ready to smoke a stick that I was bombed when I noticed a small hole... Inside the hole were tunnels with 3 beetles...

[SilverFox]

I have to disagree with you here. I personally have had eggs hatch after freezing twice.

I know you and I have had discussion before about this subject. After you showed me before the information you had, I accepted it and have had no problems. But a couple weeks ago, I had a run in again with a beetle. I know these sticks were frozen and the particular stick was frozen twice. Maybe I am the exception :(

Any thoughts on how this happened?

While I believe in the study I don't have any doubt that what you say is true.

Which leads me to believe that your beetles are somewhere else, perhaps in your humi? Maybe they are indigenous to your area? Do you frequent a B&M that might have them?

Knowing your penchant for research Wayne I am assuming you have thought of these things already.

[BDC]

I two have had a beetle outbreak twice and I freeze everything that comes in, I haven't had a problem sense I started this.. Only difference is I throw them directly into the freezer first..

[bonjing]

ok i have to ask, is there anyway to screw-up freezing cigars? like not taking out enough air, to many cigars in a bag?

are there any extra precautions i should take? i know the instructions are straight forward, but somehow i can find a way to screw it up. i think will try it out first on one cigar.

[TDK08]

Some articles say freezing cracks the microscopic eggs , others say it just makes live larvae and beetles die and the eggs go dormant. There are studies done after multiple freezings , then being exposed to high temps and the cigars have been overrun by beetles. Theres also studies where microwaves were used to kill the eggs and some eggs survived. Personally i dont know maybe these bastards survive all extremes like roaches, but if i see any infestation i wont hestitate to fuk them, eye for an eye i say :)

[md4958]

but if i see any infestation i wont hestitate to fuk them, :)

hey, if it fits, go for it! :tu

:r:r:r

[TDK08]

hey, if it fits, go for it! :tu

:r:r:r

Who's a bad little beetle , yes u are , yes u are **rub, rub rub** LOL

[md4958]

who's a bad little beetle , yes u are , yes u are **rub, rub rub** lol

roflmao!!!!!

[longknocker]

Thanks For All the great advice & Pics., Shawn!:tu

[TDK08]

theres a url showing the beetles penis under a microscope, i wont post it here though lol. I thought it was tobii for a second :D

[wayner123]

While I believe in the study I don't have any doubt that what you say is true.

Which leads me to believe that your beetles are somewhere else, perhaps in your humi? Maybe they are indigenous to your area? Do you frequent a B&M that might have them?

Knowing your penchant for research Wayne I am assuming you have thought of these things already.

Yeah, that's the thing. I have thought of just about every aspect of how this could happen. The only thing I can figure is that the eggs were not killed, and my temps in FL get high. Most people on here have Vino's or some other type of temp control be it electric or because they live in areas not as hot as FL. So the freeze is a great tool, it just sucked that it did not work 100% for me :(

[md4958]

Yeah, that's the thing. I have thought of just about every aspect of how this could happen. The only thing I can figure is that the eggs were not killed, and my temps in FL get high. Most people on here have Vino's or some other type of temp control be it electric or because they live in areas not as hot as FL. So the freeze is a great tool, it just sucked that it did not work 100% for me :(

fortunately you discovered the infestation before it caused major damage

[wayner123]

fortunately you discovered the infestation before it caused major damage

And I think that is upmost in the discussion of beetles and cigars.

I don't have a large collection of smokes. So I can go through my whole collection, stick by stick, in around 30 minutes. Most of those horrible pics you see were of cigars that have been left alone for some while. That is the real danger with dealing with beetles. If you go through your cigars regularly, you will be able to catch any traces of beetles. I know there are a good number of BOTL's who's collections may not be huge, so IMO beetles are not a great risk to them. If you see one you will be able to kill it and more than likely save the stick or two it made a hole in.

But there are also those BOTL's who have loads of cigars, boxes, etc. In those cases a box may not be opened for a year or more. That is when beetles can become a real problem to your collection. These unchecked "aging" boxes become a literal feeding/breeding gorund for tobacco beetles.

Freezing is a great precaution and preventative step in maintaining sanity about your smokes. But if your collection is small to begin with, you will probably smoke through or examine by happenstance the sticks you have before they become a problem.

[Totemic]

Yeah, that's the thing. I have thought of just about every aspect of how this could happen. The only thing I can figure is that the eggs were not killed, and my temps in FL get high. Most people on here have Vino's or some other type of temp control be it electric or because they live in areas not as hot as FL. So the freeze is a great tool, it just sucked that it did not work 100% for me :(

Is it possible the beetle infestation may not be in the cigars but in the humidor itself? I know that once an infestation breaks out, you not only have to freeze the cigars, but also clean up the humidor. Maybe you missed a pocket in there somewhere?

This assumes of course, the cigars were frozen long enough to ensure the core of the cigar reached the temperature in question for the duration needed to kill off all the little buggers.

Anyways, for me at least, I don't freeze cigars mostly because as Wayner123 pointed out, I tend to monitor my cigars pretty regularly so the odds of having any cigars go for weeks/months without me at least eyeballing it once is remote. Not to mention, I'm a lazy bum and I hate having to deal with all the prep work for freezing/thawing cigars (although, I may start taking those precautions).

[Mr.Italy]

What do you think on the long term aging ( 10 years) for a box of cigars if freezed and not freezed.

Will we loose some aroma/essential oils flavour etc.

JFYI all cigars that are sold in Italy are freezed by the importer ( this means freezed twice as also in Cuba premium cigars (not all) are freezed).,

[SilverFox]

What do you think on the long term aging ( 10 years) for a box of cigars if freezed and not freezed.

Will we loose some aroma/essential oils flavour etc.

JFYI all cigars that are sold in Italy are freezed by the importer ( this means freezed twice as also in Cuba premium cigars (not all) are freezed).,

I have no imperical evidence either way as I have nothing that I have personally frozen that has been around in my humi for more than a year as that is how long ago I started freezing.

I believe that it would not have any impact as their is no loss of oils or aroma if they are fully sealed. Some may argue the other side of that, but my preference given that I have a larger collection (at least to me) and have boxes that may go unopened for years is that I freeze. I would rather risk the loss of a little flavor than open a box of dust in 3 years.

I think that this whole freezing thing is a case by case decision, Wayner made a good point earlier that if you have a relatively small collection and are looking at your sticks on a regular basis and smoke through them fairly quickly then freezing may not be necessary for you.

I have 1,400 plus cigars of which many are boxes that I have only opened upon receipt from the vendor and have not as yet reopened nor will I likely open them for some years to come so freezing is like buying insurance to me (which I also have on my cigars) I would rather not take the risk, I have invested much money time and effort into my collection.

Hope this helps

[Cigarcop]

Shawn if you want you can send me around 700 of them and I can assure you I will personally finger f#^(*!! each one weekly to make sure no beetles pop up!!!

Just trying to help out!!!:)

[TDK08]

Shawn if you want you can send me around 700 of them and I can assure you I will personally finger f#^(*!! each one weekly to make sure no beetles pop up!!!

Just trying to help out!!!:)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/superxero88/impressive.jpg

hell yeah!!

[SilverFox]

Shawn if you want you can send me around 700 of them and I can assure you I will personally finger f#^(*!! each one weekly to make sure no beetles pop up!!!

Just trying to help out!!!:)


I dunno if I have any tupperware containers that big :ss

[TDK08]

i still say sending a sealed box full of beetles is the answer, dude goes to open the box for a quick smell and bang that critters latch onto his face :D

[Starscream]

This ain't a sticky yet?

[thebiglebowski]

great post and this is almost exactly my process as well!

i'm gonna give silverfox a bump... ;)

[SilverFox]

great post and this is almost exactly my process as well!

i'm gonna give silverfox a bump... ;)

Why thank you kind sir

[Footbag]

So 3-4 hours in my mailbox should do today. LOL!

Great Post!

[DPD6030]

Thanks for the info. Shawn. This would make a great sticky.

[SilverFox]

Got a PM on this yesterday thought I would bump it up again

[ca21455]

I have stored a few thousand NC cigars over the years, many with several years of storage on them and have never found evidence of a beetle. Is this mainly a problem with storing older CC's or have I just been lucky?

[SilverFox]

It occurs in CC and NC alike, have a look at the pic of the padrons in the first post of this thread

[Sr Mike]

I have seen more beetles in Padron's (1926 and 1964 boxes too be specific) than any other cigar brand.

[promethius]

got a special box that arrived today heading to the freezer with a stop in the fridge. Great post, thanks!!!!

[DPD6030]

So does one have to wrap in plastic before putting boxes in the reefer or can one just put the boxes in by themselves? Also, now that I found a few with holes do I just wipe out my vino with distilled H2O or something else?

[BDC]

Yes, seal the box's before you freeze.. About the vino, I heard to wipe the inside of humidors with Cognac, kills the larvae and won't hurt your cigars.. Just let it air out before stocking it back up...

[SilverFox]

Seems to be a bunch of beetles popping up so I thought I would bump this back up

CLICK HERE TO GO TO FIRST POST (http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7919)

[Kwilkinson]

Let's get this thread stickied!!!!

Awesome thread Fox.

[Drat]

Here you go, so you don't have to go convert on another site:
-20C = -4F
-15C = 5F
-10C = 14F
-5C = 23F
0C = 32F
+5F = 41F
+10C = 50F


Great writeup SilverFox. Thanks. I think I might start freezing my sticks.

In case this one gets stickied, here is the Fahrenheit conversion of the white paper on cigarette beetle mortality I posted in another thread on this topic.

--------
Keep in mind that most home freezers at their lowest setting only go down to about 17 degrees F. As long as the larval stage has not been acclimated to 60 degrees for several months before freezing occurs, 4 days in a home freezer should result in 100% mortality.

Cigarette Beetle Mortality White Paper Chart

Stage/Temperature (F)/100% Mortalitiy (hours)
Egg............-4...................1
..................5...................4
..................14.................12
..................23.................48
..................32................240
..................41................336

Larval .........-4.................1
..................5..................3
.................14.................12
.................23.................96
.................32.................288
.................41.................336

Acclimated larval (59 degrees for 1-3 months)
.................-4.................1
..................5..................6
.................14.................24
.................23.................504
.................32.................1176
.................41.................1680

Pupal.........-4..................1
.................5...................2
.................14.................4
.................23.................48
.................32.................288
.................41.................840

Adult..........-4.................1
.................5...................2
.................14.................2
.................23.................72
.................32.................288
.................41.................840
__________________

[BamBam]

Let's get this thread stickied!!!!

Awesome thread Fox.

I agree....it's great info

[CigarmanTim]

Drat's last post looks similar to the Cigar Magazine 2008 Summer issue. In my mind it quotes the formost indepth study done on beetles. There are some differences .. Use the acclimated larval chart to be safe. Japan Tobacco's study shows a freezer at 32 degrees takes nearly 2 months to kill 100% of the beetles (all stages) They brought in infected bales and put them in freezers at various temps. Then got the old microscope out... it also agrees with Drats 100% kill at -4 F

Pick up the Cigar magazine with Vince Curatola on the cover.

[SilverFox]

Here is the actual Table from the WhitePaper.

The times for mortality are in hours.

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg158/silverfox67/FreezingTimeTable.jpg?t=1240978457

[marge796]

Got the first batch in the fridge and in 12 hours they go to the deep freeze for a nice long nap.

[ahc4353]

Thanks for making this a sticky!

Congrats Hairball.

[bonjing]

So freezing in tubes or take them out first?

[BDC]

Might have been posted but here's a little tidbit of info...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxmXHkjyR4s&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Ftobacconistu%2Eblogspot%2Ecom%2F 2007%2F09%2Fretail%2Dshoplifters%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded

[md4958]

Might have been posted but here's a little tidbit of info...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxmXHkjyR4s&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Ftobacconistu%2Eblogspot%2Ecom%2F 2007%2F09%2Fretail%2Dshoplifters%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded

good post, ive never seen that video before

[SilverFox]

So freezing in tubes or take them out first?

Boxes, Tubes, Coffins, Cabs I leave em in what they came in. I have frozen everything from Glass and Aluminum Tubes to Coffins and Cabs.

[bonjing]

thanks SilverFox!

[brigey57]

Thanks SilverFox for the post. To often you can say I had no idea but it pays to read and pay attention. It is better to freeze then to burn!!!:tu

[boom]

I gotta do this from now on no matter what!!!

[RaiderinKS]

Nice thread, some decent research, but hardly scientific. This is what I would call a research based guess.

[SilverFox]

Nice thread, some decent research, but hardly scientific. This is what I would call a research based guess.

I am unsure what you mean by a research based guess?

Care to clarify

[RaiderinKS]

I am unsure what you mean by a research based guess?

Care to clarify

This has hardly considered all of the variables with a scientific and open mind. No experiments were done in succession to address all of our concerns. Only one experiment is cited relating to only a specific portion of the variables involved. Thus, this is neither scientific experimentation, nor complete scientific research. It is instead a guess with some light research.

[SilverFox]

This has hardly considered all of the variables with a scientific and open mind.

What variables would those be?

No experiments were done in succession to address all of our concerns.

What concerns are you alluding too?

Only one experiment is cited relating to only a specific portion of the variables involved.

Again I am unsure as to the variables that you are referring too but I think that the main concern is the mortality/temperature information that has been extensively experimented.

Thus, this is neither scientific experimentation, nor complete scientific research. It is instead a guess with some light research.

I would however disagree that this is a guess, it is rather an application of the findings of some very extensive research, and so far the results have been flawless in my circumstances, there was no intent to provide absolute irrefutable process to anyone but rather a tried and true process that has been tested by many and shown to be effective. I have first hand experience in cigar beetles and the damage that they can cause and have tried to provide my fellow cigar smokers with the benefit of my research and the process used. But we are all entitled to our opinions and you have expressed yours, my apologies if you find this information to be ill advised and poorly thought out. I would be greatly appreciative if you have better information to assist in the irradication of beetle infestations in my cigars, until then I will rely on the process I have indicated as it has proven to be effective (at least in my circumstances)

[RaiderinKS]

What variables would those be?



What concerns are you alluding too?



Again I am unsure as to the variables that you are referring too but I think that the main concern is the mortality/temperature information that has been extensively experimented.



I would however disagree that this is a guess, it is rather an application of the findings of some very extensive research, and so far the results have been flawless in my circumstances, there was no intent to provide absolute irrefutable process to anyone but rather a tried and true process that has been tested by many and shown to be effective. I have first hand experience in cigar beetles and the damage that they can cause and have tried to provide my fellow cigar smokers with the benefit of my research and the process used. But we are all entitled to our opinions and you have expressed yours, my apologies if you find this information to be ill advised and poorly thought out. I would be greatly appreciative if you have better information to assist in the irradication of beetle infestations in my cigars, until then I will rely on the process I have indicated as it has proven to be effective (at least in my circumstances)

The other concerns are how the freezing processes affect the cigars, including flavor, significant subsets of flavor, during smoking construction, wrapper oil levels, persistent long term storage durability, etc. If all we cared about was killing beetles, we could just throw them in the freezer naked and call it good. Because you don't do this, obviously you consider that this might have some adverse affects on the cigar. However, you haven't any scientific information about these affects, and how many process variables would impact things that are important to a cigar smoker.

The variables I would point out are: mil of plastic used to contain cigars, sealing method of plastic container, RH of cigar environment when entered into container, swell/shrink of cigar cross-sectional area, etc etc.

[RaiderinKS]

Many people will tell you that the freezing will ruin the taste of the cigars. I have my opinion and that is there is no discernable difference. In addition I have bombed, gifted, traded, sold several hundred cigars to members of this board and others and not one has told me that the cigar tasted like it was "frozen" opinions will vary on this but there is little if any imperical evidence either way.

It is unrealistic to expect that someone would say a cigar tasted like it was frozen, as I wouldn't expect that many cigar smokers have participated in scientific experiments to compare the flavor of two otherwise comparable cigars. However, you could pretty easily illicit feedback about how the cigar tasted as compared with other cigars that person has smoked, but without more stringent scientific controls, this would be little more than a survey.

This is why I say we are missing some of the science here. You present some scientific, research based information, but you also interject your opinion without so much as a qualification. Have you ever frozen half a box and not the other half and traded off smokes between the two sets? It is hardly the kind of thing that I would gloss over in a scientific analysis.

[SilverFox]

It is unrealistic to expect that someone would say a cigar tasted like it was frozen, as I wouldn't expect that many cigar smokers have participated in scientific experiments to compare the flavor of two otherwise comparable cigars. However, you could pretty easily illicit feedback about how the cigar tasted as compared with other cigars that person has smoked, but without more stringent scientific controls, this would be little more than a survey.

This is why I say we are missing some of the science here. You present some scientific, research based information, but you also interject your opinion without so much as a qualification. Have you ever frozen half a box and not the other half and traded off smokes between the two sets? It is hardly the kind of thing that I would gloss over in a scientific analysis.

If you have smoked any Cuban cigars shipped after 2005 you have smoked sticks that have been frozen. Habanos SA started freezing cigars circa 2005 on a semi regular basis and now freezes all warehoused cigars.

As I have mentioned in prior posts I have given out 100s if not closer to 1,000 cigars and each and every one of them has been frozen. I have done trades of close to 300 cigars all which have been frozen. These sticks have gone out to over 100 different people and I have not as yet had a person note that the cigar tasted different from freezing.

I have been freezing my cigars for going on three years and have frozen cigars up to 15 years old and had no adverse effects on over 3,000 cigars of various ages, sizes, marca's and vitolas. I have not had one single cigar burst or swell, dehydrate or over humidify.

You are completely correct that I have not undertaken a full scientific analysis however that can be said about a myriad of things within this hobby

What RH is optimal for storage cigars 60% 65% 70% 75% ?? - I know people that store in all of these ranges.

Is storage RH also optimal smoking RH - dry boxers will say no others yes, perhaps others even maintain a smoking box at a different RH than there storage facilities.

What are the long term impacts of storing in a Vino or a Cooler vs a true spanish cedar humidor??? Will the plastic leech and create aging/flavor issues.

What about temperature fluctations?

Changes in baromtric pressure??

Should different marcas be stored and aged together?

What is the best approach for aging..........air tight or circulating air?

What speed is optimal for the best flavor profile for a cigar and is it different for different Vitola's or Marca's?

Is passive or active humidification better for your cigars?

Is distilled water absolutely required for humidification?

Will propylene glycol impart flavors to your cigars?

Is patching a cigar with arabic gum or other cigar glues safe for consumption?

How long is too long for a cigar to be in transit?

How long should a cigar rest?

What is the optimal aging period for a cigar?


I guess what I am trying to get at is there is a myriad of things that are subjective in this hobby and while I fully agree with you that the conditions and assessment of freezing cigars is not 100% emperical I would question your motivation for your posts, is there something of value you want to be addressed or clarified or is it merely being antogonistic.

I did not profess this to be an emperical scientific study but rather a tried and tested method of preventing cigar beetle infestation. If your concern over flavor change is greater than your concern over beetles then by all means don't freeze.

For my collection I freeze them all, and it gives me peace of mind........particularly having had sticks with beetles in them in three occasions, I have far too much money tied up in my sticks and no personal observations that freezing is bad to risk it.

[Old Sailor]

Nice thread, some decent research, but hardly scientific. This is what I would call a research based guess.

Now I may be wrong, but no where has Shawn stated that this was based on scientific research, just the science behind it as posted by others. If you want scientific research data, maybe someone could do a year long study on the variables, then post results. The science I see behind his posts are derived from the cycle of eggs to full hatch killing, someone must have done this part, other wise it would not have been posted as an article in a magazine.

[RaiderinKS]

If you have smoked any Cuban cigars shipped after 2005 you have smoked sticks that have been frozen. Habanos SA started freezing cigars circa 2005 on a semi regular basis and now freezes all warehoused cigars.

As I have mentioned in prior posts I have given out 100s if not closer to 1,000 cigars and each and every one of them has been frozen. I have done trades of close to 300 cigars all which have been frozen. These sticks have gone out to over 100 different people and I have not as yet had a person note that the cigar tasted different from freezing.

I have been freezing my cigars for going on three years and have frozen cigars up to 15 years old and had no adverse effects on over 3,000 cigars of various ages, sizes, marca's and vitolas. I have not had one single cigar burst or swell, dehydrate or over humidify.

You are completely correct that I have not undertaken a full scientific analysis however that can be said about a myriad of things within this hobby

What RH is optimal for storage cigars 60% 65% 70% 75% ?? - I know people that store in all of these ranges.

Is storage RH also optimal smoking RH - dry boxers will say no others yes, perhaps others even maintain a smoking box at a different RH than there storage facilities.

What are the long term impacts of storing in a Vino or a Cooler vs a true spanish cedar humidor??? Will the plastic leech and create aging/flavor issues.

What about temperature fluctations?

Changes in baromtric pressure??

Should different marcas be stored and aged together?

What is the best approach for aging..........air tight or circulating air?

What speed is optimal for the best flavor profile for a cigar and is it different for different Vitola's or Marca's?

Is passive or active humidification better for your cigars?

Is distilled water absolutely required for humidification?

Will propylene glycol impart flavors to your cigars?

Is patching a cigar with arabic gum or other cigar glues safe for consumption?

How long is too long for a cigar to be in transit?

How long should a cigar rest?

What is the optimal aging period for a cigar?


I guess what I am trying to get at is there is a myriad of things that are subjective in this hobby and while I fully agree with you that the conditions and assessment of freezing cigars is not 100% emperical I would question your motivation for your posts, is there something of value you want to be addressed or clarified or is it merely being antogonistic.

I did not profess this to be an emperical scientific study but rather a tried and tested method of preventing cigar beetle infestation. If your concern over flavor change is greater than your concern over beetles then by all means don't freeze.

For my collection I freeze them all, and it gives me peace of mind........particularly having had sticks with beetles in them in three occasions, I have far too much money tied up in my sticks and no personal observations that freezing is bad to risk it.

I guess some of the information you have just posted is more like it. On the other hand, I hate it when I see these kinds of threads without the counterpoint. No offense to you or anyone else that posts this kind of thread, but I think it is good to have some counterpoints to keep things objective.

I know someone will probably come behind me and say that I am just being a ####, but I think it is a valid proposition.

[kelmac07]

Awesome information in this thread!!! Thanks guys.

[wayner123]

Do you have any info that shows how long a beetle (larva or other stage) can remain dormant?

[bdcigarsmoker]

I don't know if the correct place to post, but here it goes. I think I may have beetles, I have smoked a couple of sticks lately that were very soft, the ashes dropped quicker than normal, and I have noticed what look like little tunnels in the ashes or burned part of cigar. The humidors are kept around 68% rh. The temp stays around 77 or 78, it's too expenseve to cool the house any cooler. Could these be bugs, or is it a hummidity problem?
Thanks for any help and advice.

[Old Sailor]

I don't know if the correct place to post, but here it goes. I think I may have beetles, I have smoked a couple of sticks lately that were very soft, the ashes dropped quicker than normal, and I have noticed what look like little tunnels in the ashes or burned part of cigar. The humidors are kept around 68% rh. The temp stays around 77 or 78, it's too expenseve to cool the house any cooler. Could these be bugs, or is it a hummidity problem?
Thanks for any help and advice.

Take cigars and tap the foot over white paper, if anything comes out looking like very fine black pepper, you have beetles.

[massphatness]

Freezer bags.

Luxury or necessity?

Plz advise.

Thanks.

[bdcigarsmoker]

Take cigars and tap the foot over white paper, if anything comes out looking like very fine black pepper, you have beetles.

Thanks, going to try right now, hope it's not bad news.

[Cord]

After reading this and looking at the pictures my cigars ended up in the fridge to chill, then on to the freezer.

[D. Generate]

Time for more anecdotal evidence to take or leave at your discretion.

When I lived in the States I had proper climate control in the house. Here in London that is an exceedingly difficult task. I never had a beetle outbreak in the States. Here it is an annual thing even with having wine coolerdors now.

Mr. Italy says what I've heard in Italy and Spain but I've had boxes from both countries that have had beetles in them. FWIW I have no doubt they take precautions but I doubt the efficacy of them.

I now freeze everything. I've still run into the occasional problem but I now also isolate and quarantine everything so I can nip it in the bud. I honestly don't know if it's just from being over here and buying at shops that has caused the problem or just bad luck. I think the wine coolerdors rules out excessive temps but I've still come across them. The past two and a half years has been the most frustrating in my smoking life.

My two pence: If you're buying anywhere in Europe then freeze. And watch them like a hawk.

Incidentally I have yet to tell a difference between one frozen and properly restored and one fresh - or one that I've had from the States that never saw a freezer.

[McSmokey]

great information i may start freezing my sticks as well

[mravery]

Ok guys,

This thread has scared the crap out of me.....

What would anyone guess is the percentage of infected cigars (pull a number out of you A$$).....

Are all the large manufacturers freezing their stock before they ship?

Right after I read it, I went and checked all of my sticks....... I had plans on buying some very expensive boxes and store them unopened..... but now, I guess I need to open them and check then from time to time even if I freeze them first..:(

I would like to hear from some of the other Florida guys in regards to the problems (if any) that they have had....

Cheers
Mark

[TampaRoadking]

Would it be safe to assume that if I freeze 100% of everything that is put into my standard non-cooled humidor cabinet, that my everyday storage temperature would not be nearly as big of a concern? I also live in Florida and do not want to spend the $$ to keep the house at 70 Degrees all day. The temperature while I'm at work will raise to about 77-78 during the day.

[TampaRoadking]

Oh, I'm new to this site and posting, so I'm not sure how to get feedback on my last post from SilverFox. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[massphatness]

PM sent

[SilverFox]

Would it be safe to assume that if I freeze 100% of everything that is put into my standard non-cooled humidor cabinet, that my everyday storage temperature would not be nearly as big of a concern? I also live in Florida and do not want to spend the $$ to keep the house at 70 Degrees all day. The temperature while I'm at work will raise to about 77-78 during the day.

It would be safe to assume that you would not have an issue from beetles.

I don't know if there are any other issues with regard to slightly higher temperature storage. I know that mold spores grow better in warmer situations so that may be a concern even if maintaining 65% RH.

Also based on reading it seems there is common conjecture that higher temperatures accelerate the ageing process of a cigar (the ongoing fermentation of the leaves). This is more the case in Cuban cigars but I am sure can be an issue in Non Cubans as well. I am not sure if accelerated ageing (especially in the small increment that would occur due to that temperature variant) would be negative.

In my opinion (nothing really factual) your cigar storage is similar to wine storage. If you are in the range of acceptability then you are ok, it is large fluctuations in both RH and Temperature that cause issues.

On the freezing, given that that your storage conditions are a little warmer it wouldn't hurt to extend your freezing times slightly to ensure full mortality of any beetle eggs, larvae, pupae etc. As I have mentioned before I freeze everything in my collection and have had no beetles since taking on this practice and had zero impact on my cigars.

Hope that helps

[TampaRoadking]

Yes.....I think freezing is just a good insurance policy on my sticks. I really appreciate the feedback man.

[SilverFox]

Drop me a PM anytime I am more than happy to help

[str8edg]

if you want you can just ship them to me... everything freezes up here

I freeze everything I get, it is a bit easier for me but after seeing a bug (yuck) I don't play around anymore.

Thanks shawn for this thread

[fyrftr]

OK!

Through the freezer they go! Told the wife to work around them & don't set the Xmas ham on them. So glad to learn this the easy way and not the 'hard' way. Thanks for all the great info!

Tim L.

[Old Sailor]

if you want you can just ship them to me... everything freezes up here

I freeze everything I get, it is a bit easier for me but after seeing a bug (yuck) I don't play around anymore.

Thanks shawn for this thread

:r your outside is one big freezer!!:r

[Aldebaran]

I didnt see this asked in the thread so if I missed it sorry.

After you freeze how long til they are smokable? I froze my collection almost three weeks ago after I saw some holes looking similar to the ones on here and some of them still feel wet or moist. Humidity is bordering around 68-70

[wayner123]

I didnt see this asked in the thread so if I missed it sorry.

After you freeze how long til they are smokable? I froze my collection almost three weeks ago after I saw some holes looking similar to the ones on here and some of them still feel wet or moist. Humidity is bordering around 68-70

Opinions are probably going to vary, but I have been known to smoke them as soon as they return to room temperature.

[14holestogie]

Opinions are probably going to vary, but I have been known to smoke them as soon as they return to room temperature.

Yep, me too.

[SilverFox]

As a test I actually smoked one directly from the the freezer and found no ill effects.

Typically I will let it come back to temp, then I they are full game.

[str8edg]

I don't think it would make much difference straight out of the freezer. I have gone for walks with a cigar in my pocket in -20C or so... then smoked it on the way home.

[Perfecto]

OK...after reading everything here I have a question about not freezing that I didn't see covered. If it was covered, sorry, here's the question anyway.

I have always been aware of the beetle thing but have never froze....yet.
I do segregate all my new stuff for a period of time before I let them mingle with the crowd and allow them to get up close and personal and talk to other sticks. Maybe I've just been lucky so far.........

What would one suggest the allotted time be to keep them segregated to see if there are going to any hatching?

Thanks for the input........

[14holestogie]

OK...after reading everything here I have a question about not freezing that I didn't see covered. If it was covered, sorry, here's the question anyway.

I have always been aware of the beetle thing but have never froze....yet.
I do segregate all my new stuff for a period of time before I let them mingle with the crowd and allow them to get up close and personal and talk to other sticks. Maybe I've just been lucky so far.........

What would one suggest the allotted time be to keep them segregated to see if there are going to any hatching?

Thanks for the input........

You have been lucky, so far. It's kind of like driving without insurance. As long as you don't hit anything, you're golden. One bad incident, however, and you're in the poor house.

As the eggs can lay dormant for some time until the conditions are right, I'm not sure any length of time segregated can insure non-infestation.

Take out the insurance policy and freeze and have some peace of mind. :2

[Perfecto]

As the eggs can lay dormant for some time until the conditions are right, I'm not sure any length of time segregated can insure non-infestation.

Thanks Tim.........I fully understand the consequences...but this what I was trying to find out. How long can they lay dorm and what are the conditions?

puff on..........Dave

[14holestogie]

Thanks Tim.........I fully understand the consequences...but this what I was trying to find out. How long can they lay dorm and what are the conditions?

puff on..........Dave

Typical life span from egg to adult is 10-12 weeks.

They can continue to flourish even below 70*, although at a slower rate.

Two days in the freezer would seem to be a better option. :)

[Perfecto]

Typical life span from egg to adult is 10-12 weeks.

They can continue to flourish even below 70*, although at a slower rate.

Two days in the freezer would seem to be a better option. :)

Thanks Tim..........I greatly do appreciate your responses and please don't take me wrong when asking again....but this is what I'm trying to find out. I have spent a little time researching on the net and can't find any info there yet.

How long can the eggs lay dormant?

Thanks again..................Dave

[14holestogie]

Perhaps this'll help, Dave.

Some biology paragraph.

http://www.thefinerlife.com/smokers_conner/cigar_beetle.htm

[SilverFox]

Thanks Tim..........I greatly do appreciate your responses and please don't take me wrong when asking again....but this is what I'm trying to find out. I have spent a little time researching on the net and can't find any info there yet.

How long can the eggs lay dormant?

Thanks again..................Dave

In the study that I refer to they say that a normal egg will hatch within 4 weeks in suitable conditions but that all eggs hatch or die within a 6 week period at 20c.

Now remember that is only the eggs, the larvae have between 5 to 10 weeks and then move on to the the pupal and prepupal stages can take up to 3 weeks and then on to adult hood which adds another potential 4 weeks.

Assuming maximum range on all life stages it seems reasonable to assume that it could be 6 months of time that could pass before you could be sure of total mortality. That assumes of course that a female does not lay more eggs.

[Perfecto]

Tim......Thank you so much. This is one article I had not come across yet.
I'll give it a good reading when I get the time a little later.


Puff on.......................Dave

[Coach Deg]

Great info!!! Thank you!!!

[MiamiE]

Is it 100% fact that Habanos SA freezes all stock before shipping to distributors?

[SilverFox]

Is it 100% fact that Habanos SA freezes all stock before shipping to distributors?

All?

100% fact

I would venture to say no.

But even if they do the vendors use warehouses and or large humidors that may have beetles in them anyway so the freezing at Habanos SA does not preclude that they will not come in contact with the little vermin prior to getting to your humidor

[MiamiE]

Great. I will start by freezing my current stock!

[MTBAlex]

Awesome discussion. Thanks guys. Information like this is invaluable to a newbie like me.

[heelsfan729]

Awesome discussion. Thanks guys. Information like this is invaluable to a newbie like me.

:tu I'm in the same boat..This is prob the most valuable cigar thread I've ever read.

[SilverFox]

Thanks gentlemen I am glad you got some value out of it. That makes it worth writing up stuff like this if people get some value from it.

[Ferrari5180]

Very informative topic, and I thank you for this. :tu My initial plan when I first got introduced to cigars, was to never freeze my cigars and hope for the best, until one day I opened my humidor and found a little portion of my stash affected. It was that day that I decided that all cigars bought, would go through a 5 day freezing process, and 2 day refrigeration process to ensure those diabolic creatures never show their faces again. Until now, I have had no problems, or change in taste of cigars. I have tried the same one's before freezing and after, and if anything the frozen one's taste better. (It might be Psychological :r) Nevertheless, I enjoyed reading this thread, and I hope no one has to go through the troubles of dealing with beetles ever.

[MiamiE]

Shawn do you have any opinion on freezing cigars to kill mold and mold spores?

[SilverFox]

Shawn do you have any opinion on freezing cigars to kill mold and mold spores?


Yup

From my research a normal household deep freeze will not go low enough to kill mold spores, it makes them dormant while they are frozen but does not kill.

Mold likes two things, warm and moist. The best way to keep away from mold on your sticks is too watch you temps and RH.

Oxygen-rich environments with humidity over 70% and temperatures above 60 degrees Fahrenheit are ideal for mold growth.

Keeping boxes closed (so no spores get in) and maintaining your RH less than 70% (my preference is 64 to 66% but YMMV) and temps sub 70F is the best way to avoid it.

regular inspection (especially of freshly received over-humidified sticks) can catch mold early and it can simply be wiped off with a soft rag, paper towel or soft bristle brush.

[MiamiE]

That's my problem. Two boxes of tubos way over humified. My humi is 68* and 62% but I want to kind of get these things dried up!

[MiamiE]

They came from the vendor like this.

[SilverFox]

Well if the mold is off them just let them acclimate slowly, rushing the process can cause uneven humidification in the cigar causing burn issues etc.

Give em a month or two and they should be fine, assuming you took them out of the tubos.

[MiamiE]

I was hoping to be able to keep them in the tubos once I dry them out. Should remove them from the tubos?

[icehog3]

I was hoping to be able to keep them in the tubos once I dry them out. Should remove them from the tubos?

If there is cedar in your tubos, remove that for sure.

[MiamiE]

Cedar is inside the tubos. I will seperate all tomorrow when I take them out of their frozen sleep.

[SilverFox]

If you want to keep them in the tubos that is fine.

But I agree with the Hog get rid of the cedar (it is likely full of mold spores) also I would swab out each of the tubos with Isopropyl alcohol and let them air out while the sticks are acclimating to the RH that you want once they get there you can put them back in the tubos if you want

[icehog3]

If you want to keep them in the tubos that is fine.

But I agree with the Hog get rid of the cedar (it is likely full of mold spores) also I would swab out each of the tubos with Isopropyl alcohol and let them air out while the sticks are acclimating to the RH that you want once they get there you can put them back in the tubos if you want

Good advice indeed. :tu

[T.G]

If they came from the vendor full of mold, you should be taking a photo and emailing them to have them send replacements, not worrying about controlling the mold**. You paid for good product, not a blue cheese infused cigar. It's their job to deliver you a quality product as promised. :2


**: unless of course they told you to just toss the moldy ones and they sent replacements, then by all means, control away on the moldy cigars rather than toss them. I know I'd at least consider it, depending on how bad the mold is.

[MiamiE]

I have contacted the vendor. Nothing they can do, IMO. THese more than likely wont make it out of the country. Unfortunately this is just the way it is.

[MiamiE]

I thought the cedar acted like a barrier between the aluminum and the cigar. I took out and dumped the cedar. Will clean the tubos later.

[shilala]

Well done post, Shawn. :tu
I was reading Wayner's problem. There's another explanation besides cross-contamination...
The temp charts you posted are annotated for simplicity. They're originally from a study that considered an 80% kill rate as "controlled", then "scientifically" (read, guessed at) adjusted for maximum efficacy. That's because beetles, just like most other bugs, become resistant to cold as they march north. Natural selection isolates the fittest, and they become more resistant. There's always a mutant bizarro or two in a batch of bugs that you just can't kill with freezing.
Wayner could just be THAT lucky. :D
Despite that, freezing lowers the odds of infestation dramatically. It's good practice, and as you've suggested, even better practice to do everything yourself. :tu

[SilverFox]

I have contacted the vendor. Nothing they can do, IMO. THese more than likely wont make it out of the country. Unfortunately this is just the way it is.

Any reputable Vendor would have taken them back.

I would suggest if they said there is nothing they can do that maybe they are not a vendor that you want to use anymore.

[MiamiE]

There is something they can do but like I said, they won't make it back to them. They'll be confiscated.

[Ferrari5180]

Can I ask why you believe that they will not make it out of the country? If it is the vendor that told you this, then obviously they are lying so that they do not have to replace the sticks.

[WeekendSmoker]

I just found beetles. Grrrrrrr....... I had to toss an entire box of ISOMs ( from 2003) and now I am going though about 40 or so boxes, checking them one by one. So far I have found a few other ones which I had to toss.
Obviously I am already started freezing the first batch.
Not happy.
WeekendSmoker

[Ferrari5180]

You can try freezing the cigars with minimal beetle damage. Do you freeze your cigars when you buy them?

[wayner123]

I just found beetles. Grrrrrrr....... I had to toss an entire box of ISOMs ( from 2003) and now I am going though about 40 or so boxes, checking them one by one. So far I have found a few other ones which I had to toss.
Obviously I am already started freezing the first batch.
Not happy.
WeekendSmoker

Why not just smoke them? Was the damage so bad that you couldn't smoke the cigar?

[SilverFox]

Why not just smoke them? Was the damage so bad that you couldn't smoke the cigar?
:tpd:

Freeze to prevent further contamination but I smoked all my beetle damaged sticks........satisfies some primal urge to know the little fckers burned :ss

[WeekendSmoker]

My cigars are (in boxes) in 4 coolidors stacked on top of each other / next to each other. I generally I check on them about once a week to make sure humidity is in the right ballpark (I use beads).
A friend came over and wanted to try some which were on the bottom of one of the cooler. I noticed some dust on the bottom of the cooler, opend the box (punch punch btw) and the entire box had pretty much turned into dust with lots of dead beetles in it.
Quite a shock.
I checked every cigar in every box in the coolidor with the problem and there were only a couple of cigars with holes.
I then started checking the other coolidors and I actually saw some beetles running around on the inside of them. There was one box (monte #2) with a couple of cigars with holes, and some beetles running around..
Long story short, both the montes as well as the punch came from the same vendor (in the same shipment) and I do not freeze cigars - never had a problem until now.
Now I am in the process of freezing every box (after closely inspecting them of course) for between 12 and 24 hours and moving them to a clean coolidors (washed out with with bleach just because I'm paranoid).
What is interesting is that I found beetles in coolidors which did not have cigars from the suspected shipment, and because I saw some running around on the walls of the cooler I suspect that they can actually move from cooler to cooler looking for dinner.
Beetles are very easy to crush. they are not like cockroaches that you can't kill. (more info you don't want to know..)
Several lessons learned:

-Freeze all new additions to the collection
-Check cigars fairly frequently - an argument for rotatating them. The Montes with beetles seemed ok when looking at the first layer. The bottom layer was the one with the infested cigars. Simply opening a box and looking at the top layer is not thorough enough. One way to see if you have a problem is to tilt the box in question and tap it to see if dust comes out. Obviously don't do this over your cigar collection, but over a light surface so you can see what the debris consists of......little pieces of tobacco are normal but dust is not. Once you see the difference in the kinds of debris (and I hope you BOTLs never will) it is very obvious.
-don't keep all your cigars in one location as beetles can move around more than expected.

I have a problem with temperatures. Generally my cigars are stored at 60-65% humidity and about 70-74 degrees. Too warm. I know it and/but there is not much I can do about it. I don't have the space for a vinotemp and trying to keep the temperature down by adding icepacks is a nice theory but to do that 24/7 for years on end for 4-5 coolidors is unrealistic.

One of the positive side effects is that I had a cigar from a box which used to be on the bottom (a Partagas 2004 EL) which I had not had in many years. It was a whole lot better and integrated than when I got that box a couple of years ago.
I hope you guys can avoid some of the mistakes I've made.

WeekendSmoker
edit: in the boxes which had been severely infected the beetles seemed to have a preference for the darkest, oiliest cigars. Perhaps a coicidence, perhaps not. Just and observation (though on a small number of datapoints....)

[bonjing]

When freezing boxes, SLB's, I just realized that I forgot about the insulating factor of the wheel. I usually freeze all cigars for 7 days, do you think this is long enough to kill the little buggers? The freezer is an upright freezer around 3 - 5 degrees fahrenheit.

[SilverFox]

When freezing boxes, SLB's, I just realized that I forgot about the insulating factor of the wheel. I usually freeze all cigars for 7 days, do you think this is long enough to kill the little buggers? The freezer is an upright freezer around 3 - 5 degrees fahrenheit.

I think that is more than enough. I only freeze mine for 48 hours and that includes 50 Cabs. More is good and not going to hurt anything in my opinion.

This is of course only opinion, you would need a temperature probe to know for sure.

[bonjing]

Thanks Fox ! ! !

[massphatness]

Fox -

Freezer bags.

Luxury or necessity?

Plz advise.

Thanks!

[SilverFox]

Boxes I use plain ole costco food wrap in multiple layers.

I use freezer bags for singles.

Not using anything would cause a lot of moisture loss I would think, maybe not in that short of a time but I certainly wouldn't want to expose my sticks to more moisture loss than necessary.

[massphatness]

Follow up question -- sometimes I get singles in 5-finger bags. Good enough for freezing or should I through the whole thing in a freezer bag?

[SilverFox]

If they are the ones from Wayners GB then you are good, they are a good thick poly.

In all you are probably ok but some of the 5 fingers I have had over time where pretty porous.

[BDC]

Heavy duty Freezer bags, and just keep it on the side and re-use it.. That's what I do, and NOTHING that comes in don't see Freezer time period!... It's the only way new arrivals see my humidor..

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

I have another question.

Lets say someone ordered some cigars and forgot about them coming and went on vacation. They come back home only to find that their cigars were in the mail box for a week in 90 deg heat.

Will this trigger beetles even though the cigars were frozen before all this happened?

Thanks to anyone that can help.

[lightning9191]

I have another question.

Lets say someone ordered some cigars and forgot about them coming and went on vacation. They come back home only to find that their cigars were in the mail box for a week in 90 deg heat.

Will this trigger beetles even though the cigars were frozen before all this happened?

Thanks to anyone that can help.

They can only hatch if there is viable eggs. If they were frozen properly before shipping and were not infested after freezing, then they should be fine. I would keep them separate from my other sticks to see if anything hatches....or you can always freeze to be on the safe side.

[BDC]

What would it hurt to send them to the freezer a couple days?

Why take the chance.?!?:confused:

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

They can only hatch if there is viable eggs. If they were frozen properly before shipping and were not infested after freezing, then they should be fine. I would keep them separate from my other sticks to see if anything hatches....or you can always freeze to be on the safe side.

Thanks, Kevin.

[waffle]

I just have a n00b question about the bags... we do not currently own a vacuum sealer and are set on which one to get just yet, could I just use Ziploc Freezer bags instead of vacuum sealing or is that a bad idea?

[BDC]

I use Freezer bags, no problem.. :tu

[waffle]

I use Freezer bags, no problem.. :tu

Thanks, looks like I'll be hitting the store on the way home.

[T.G]

I just use any old ziploc bag (I've frozen countless cigars in the plain old CI smiley bags and 5-finger bags) Doesn't have to be "freezer rated". They are not going to be in there long enough for the thickness of the bag to really make any difference.

[waffle]

I just use any old ziploc bag (I've frozen countless cigars in the plain old CI smiley bags and 5-finger bags) Doesn't have to be "freezer rated". They are not going to be in there long enough for the thickness of the bag to really make any difference.

Ok, then I can go with the normal gallon size, I'm doing my whole collection and it'll be easier that way (theyre all loose and the collection is only 50 sticks ;))

[ridenlive]

What does everyone think of liquid nitrogen... that should do the trick right lol i'll bring a pic when i get a chance

[wayner123]

What does everyone think of liquid nitrogen... that should do the trick right lol i'll bring a pic when i get a chance

You kid, but a BOTL once did an experiment on freezing cigars by using dry ice.

[Bill86]

So let me get this straight....My cigarettes contain tar, rat poison and god knows what else.....now my cigars contain Beetles? Man I haven't went to sleep yet but it already feels like someone **** in my cereal.

So let me get this straight....somehow and why are there beetles in cigars?
Do you have to freeze EVERY CIGAR? Like say I buy cigars from a smoke shop....are those fine since they've been in a humidor for god knows how long? Is this only for online purchased cigars? Are beetles already THERE or do they somehow FORM in cigars?

[bobarian]

Tobacco beetles are not as big a problem as they once were in cigars. Most major manufacturers have some sort of control. Many large online retailers have freezing facilities.

If you are buying cigars from your local shop or online and smoking them within a week or two, you shouldnt have problems. But many of us buy boxes(and boxes) and store them for a several months or longer. In this case, to avoid the horror of opening a box six months down the line and finding a bunch of holes in your cigars, freezing will give you a peace of mind.

This is an obsessive hobby, we worry about everything. Rh, temperature, next cigar purchase, storage. The main thing is to relax and enjoy a cigar, sometimes the stress over the little things can interfere with your enjoyment and that should be avoided.

[aar0n]

Thanks for the info, you got me scared now and I want to go home and check my humidor lol.

[Hoosierguy]

I haven't read all the posts here but as I await a delivery from UPS, something struck me.
You guys are saying that most manufacturers freeze the cigars to kill eggs/larva before they are shipped to the retails.
It seems to me that the delivery to your house may be were the cigars are exposed to high temps, triggering the beetles. Could it be that paying extra for, say a two day delivery, is worth the price? A seven or nine day delivery might mean that your cigs spend as much as a week in a very hot warehouse somewhere.
Just a thought.

[bobarian]

Shipping time is mostly irrelevant from domestic sources. If the eggs/larva/beetles are dead, there is nothing to hatch no matter what the temps or delivery time. That is the reason things are frozen. Freezing at home is just a second layer of protection, the only way to get contaminated is from another source, like cigars you receive in trades or bombs. :2

[icehog3]

Shipping time is mostly irrelevant from domestic sources. If the eggs/larva/beetles are dead, there is nothing to hatch no matter what the temps or delivery time. That is the reason things are frozen. Freezing at home is just a second layer of protection, the only way to get contaminated is from another source, like cigars you receive in trades or bombs. :2

Bob is wise. :tu

[Cigarcop]

I always let people know if they receive cigars from me they have already been thru the process of freezing by me.

[jbuck]

The best artial I"ve read on the subject. The pix of ruined cigars is enough to make me cry

[SilverFox]

I haven't read all the posts here but as I await a delivery from UPS, something struck me.
You guys are saying that most manufacturers freeze the cigars to kill eggs/larva before they are shipped to the retails.
It seems to me that the delivery to your house may be were the cigars are exposed to high temps, triggering the beetles. Could it be that paying extra for, say a two day delivery, is worth the price? A seven or nine day delivery might mean that your cigs spend as much as a week in a very hot warehouse somewhere.
Just a thought.

I think that this is more of a maybe than an actual regular occurrence. At least from a CC perspective. I cannot speak to NC's as I don't have or get any.

Bob's comments are mostly right in my mind. It is all the intermediary steps you have to be concerned about. From manufacturer to storage facility to wholesaler to retailer to you and whatever happens in between.

I have friends that as recently as last month have had sticks arrive with live bugs in em.......still give me nightmares.

[SilverFox]

The best artial I"ve read on the subject. The pix of ruined cigars is enough to make me cry

Thanks

[Apoco]

Thank you for the very detailed walk through!

I got some today with the Pupal stage in them. I'll be stopping to get some nice, big freezer bags today.

[bobarian]

Thank you for the very detailed walk through!

I got some today with the Pupal stage in them. I'll be stopping to get some nice, big freezer bags today.

How do you know they have pupae in them? :confused: If these are a recent purchase I would be concerned with the source. In my experience the only way to know if you have an outbreak is to find holes or see actual beetles running around in the box. :2

[Apoco]

How do you know they have pupae in them? :confused: If these are a recent purchase I would be concerned with the source. In my experience the only way to know if you have an outbreak is to find holes or see actual beetles running around in the box. :2

I actually learned a little something later on. The white bugs I saw crawling around WEREN'T cigar beetles as I thought =X (they looked just like the picture, in my defense).

I still froze them as a preventative measure, though.

[nick2021]

Had a beetle outbreak :( Now, everything goes in the freezer!!!!

[CoreyD]

Glad I stumbled on this, My box of Thompson java explorers that I got today are being prepped for freezer the 2 boxes of banditos and bundle of acids that arrive tomorrow will all be prepped and then sanitized wi freezer way and why not. I have a 100 ct Humidor just finishing its seasoned state tomorrow why contaminate a new good thing.
Thank you kindly for the info and all feedback , made a great 10 page info read.
I will also remember this next year when harvesting and aging, etc.

[zappaFREAK]

Wow!! Great info. I had no idea. Had heard about these buggers but really had never seen them. Thanks for the info!!

[jaypulay]

Awesome post and great read. Of all the posts I've read about freezing cigars, I would say that this is the most informative of em all! Great job! :tu

[KillerCelt]

Great article. It has scared the crap out of me though. Time to buy some freezer bags...

[ylo2na]

Of all the reports written about beetles and what to do, this was by far the best and most informative. Outstanding job! My question is this...since I have a walk-in humidor crammed full of smokes (dont ask how many) and never have frozen one of them, am I too late to start the freezing process. Not only is this a hobby that I love, but, it is worth a lot of $$$ to be destroyed by these little beasties (Padron pic). Any info would be appreciated.

[wayner123]

Of all the reports written about beetles and what to do, this was by far the best and most informative. Outstanding job! My question is this...since I have a walk-in humidor crammed full of smokes (dont ask how many) and never have frozen one of them, am I too late to start the freezing process. Not only is this a hobby that I love, but, it is worth a lot of $$$ to be destroyed by these little beasties (Padron pic). Any info would be appreciated.

It's never too late, imo. But it will be tedious for you to do it with that many smokes. A simpler option might be to get the beetle traps that are sold at some places. From what I have read they work like a charm. However, there is still debate on whether these cause the beetles to hatch in order to get to them, instead of staying dormant.

If you have some sort of large freezer (meat locker, etc) then it might not be that tedious to do.

[T.G]

A simpler option might be to get the beetle traps that are sold at some places. From what I have read they work like a charm. However, there is still debate on whether these cause the beetles to hatch in order to get to them, instead of staying dormant.


That is completely illogical... actually, it's impossible. It's not like you or I waking up out of slumber because we smell bacon cooking. In the case of an egg, there simply is nothing there that can smell the pheromone trap because there is no lifeform there, all that exists at that point is the genetic code and proteins etc to begin formation into a lifeform. An egg can't smell and instinctively begin an incubation process that is temperature based.

As for pheromone traps, their use is widely misunderstood. While they are typically used in cigar factories and other tobacco processing facilities, they are not put there to control problems, but rather to give a clear indication of when the factory might have a problem. When a female is caught, the typical proactive reaction is to go forward with the assumption that there are 100 or so eggs out there in some part of the factory and one must handle the situation appropriately.

The last thing you want to be doing is finding beetles in the traps - it means that some more front line control measure is failing.


ylo2na, To be as close to totally safe as can be, your best bet is to buy a trunk freezer. Doesn't have to be a really big one, you can get a $100 one at wal-mart or target etc and freeze in batches, just remember to keep the freeze treated cigars physically isolated from the not-yet-freeze processed stock.

Also, at 64F constant, according to Dr. Debora Trock (CA Academy of Science), Dr. Michael Rust (Professor of Entomology, UC Riverside), all eggs die within 6 weeks. At less than 62F, previously incubated eggs can't hatch. And finally, beetles have to fly to mate, and at temps less than 71.5F, the won't develop wings, ending the chain of lifecycles. BUT, eggs will still incubate, larvae will still hatch and eat, and eat, and eat, and pupate into adults before dying off due to old age, so damage to cigars can still occur at the larval stage.

Is your walk-in humidor air conditioned in such a manner that you can separately control it's temperature? Is it possible and economically feasible to take advantage of the cooler winter months and just chill the walk-in down to 60F for 8 weeks?

[ylo2na]

Thanks for the response. I can control the temp with my ac...and, possibly take it down to 60 degrees but have never tried that. Right now, with the cold weather we are having in Tampa, I have shut off my ac and the temps range between 64 to 70. Of course, it is the summer months where I have a difficulty in keeping the temps down to the 70f range, especially in the afternoons. It sometimes reaches 76 to 78 degrees in the afternoon, but, cools down to the 70f range in the evening and overnight. When the temps reach over 74f, that is when I really am concerned about an infestation taking place. As for humidity, I havent felt the pressure when it runs a little higher but, I am still concerned during these times.
I like the idea of purchasing a freezer as the safest step to take. Am wondering if I should leave the sticks in the box and put them in the freezer as is. Putting them in freezer bags without freezing the boxes (in case of eggs or larvae) may be counterproductive. What is your take on this?
Ylo2na

[T.G]

If your cigars have gone through a few summers where they spent weeks with daytime temps of 78F and nighttime temps of 70F and nothing has hatched, while of course there are no guarantees, it isn't too much of a stretch to say that it's likely that those cigars don't have have any eggs capable of incubating. Having beetle eggs in all cigars is not a given. They might not be there, and, if they are (were), they might have already been killed by fumigation or shattered by commercial blast freezing by the manufacturer and/or distributor.

Don't worry about trying to control the humidity to keep a handle on beetles since they can hatch and live at RH's far lower than where most, if not all, of us would likely find a cigar smokable (somewhere in the 30-40RH range is their bottom end IIRC).

I leave the cigars in the box after opening to inspect and then just freeze the whole thing after putting it back into it's vacuum seal bag and resealing, a ziplock bag or even a few layers of saran wrap if I can't get the box to fit into anything else. I do leave my cigars in the freezer longer due to the extra material being frozen; I go with a week or so, but that's not just because of the box, it's also because residential freezers cycle rather than maintain a constant low temp, and since it won't hurt the cigars, it's better to be safe than sorry. I don't see any added value in refrigerating before hand either, just straight to the freezer. Gradual cooldown isn't necessary, they survive going from ambient to -30F in minutes in a blast freezer, taking half a day to drop to 10F sure isn't going to hurt them.

[wayner123]

That is completely illogical... actually, it's impossible. It's not like you or I waking up out of slumber because we smell bacon cooking. In the case of an egg, there simply is nothing there that can smell the pheromone trap because there is no lifeform there, all that exists at that point is the genetic code and proteins etc to begin formation into a lifeform. An egg can't smell and instinctively begin an incubation process that is temperature based.

As for pheromone traps, their use is widely misunderstood. While they are typically used in cigar factories and other tobacco processing facilities, they are not put there to control problems, but rather to give a clear indication of when the factory might have a problem. When a female is caught, the typical proactive reaction is to go forward with the assumption that there are 100 or so eggs out there in some part of the factory and one must handle the situation appropriately.

The last thing you want to be doing is finding beetles in the traps - it means that some more front line control measure is failing.


ylo2na, To be as close to totally safe as can be, your best bet is to buy a trunk freezer. Doesn't have to be a really big one, you can get a $100 one at wal-mart or target etc and freeze in batches, just remember to keep the freeze treated cigars physically isolated from the not-yet-freeze processed stock.

Also, at 64F constant, according to Dr. Debora Trock (CA Academy of Science), Dr. Michael Rust (Professor of Entomology, UC Riverside), all eggs die within 6 weeks. At less than 62F, previously incubated eggs can't hatch. And finally, beetles have to fly to mate, and at temps less than 71.5F, the won't develop wings, ending the chain of lifecycles. BUT, eggs will still incubate, larvae will still hatch and eat, and eat, and eat, and pupate into adults before dying off due to old age, so damage to cigars can still occur at the larval stage.

Is your walk-in humidor air conditioned in such a manner that you can separately control it's temperature? Is it possible and economically feasible to take advantage of the cooler winter months and just chill the walk-in down to 60F for 8 weeks?

Like I said, "there is still debate" about how exactly they do so.

You have a further depth of knowledge about the tobacco industry than me. There have been a good number of B&M's that swear by these (walk-ins) and that is where I make the connection. But B&M's also talk smack about a wide variety of other things too. Have you personally used or experimented with these traps?? I would appreciate your insight.

On the point about temperature, I have certain references ( I will need to be on my work comp to find them) that show beetles flying around at 65 deg. However, that may be the exception and not the rule.

[T.G]

Like I said, "there is still debate" about how exactly they do so.

You have a further depth of knowledge about the tobacco industry than me. There have been a good number of B&M's that swear by these (walk-ins) and that is where I make the connection. But B&M's also talk smack about a wide variety of other things too. Have you personally used or experimented with these traps?? I would appreciate your insight.

On the point about temperature, I have certain references ( I will need to be on my work comp to find them) that show beetles flying around at 65 deg. However, that may be the exception and not the rule.

Most B&M's also often swear that the patches of fuzzy stuff found on some of their cigars is plume. :rolleyes:

Take a step back and think about it Wayne, how does a trap that operates by emitting pheromones (sex scents - this is an animals way of biologically saying "I'm ready to mate") to attract beetles of the opposite sex and then capture them, somehow trigger a temperature based incubation in an egg that has no capability of smell or ability to mate even if it could process a pheromone scent? Doesn't happen. Can't happen. Jr High school level biology classes cover this.

I'd say the B&Ms need to look at how they are operating their HVAC systems instead of pointing the finger at impossibilities that they don't seem to understand. Might as well just blame the guy across the street for painting his building whatever color he chose, that makes about as much sense as their trap theories.

I have a little bit of experience with some of the traps, but I don't feel that is really anything special or even necessary for this conversation, I'm not a pest control expert, or research scientist, or biologist (or whatever the field is called where you specialize in insects) . They are simply jumping to illogical conclusions. One shouldn't need any experience to see the disconnect - simply understanding that the traps are pheromone based, and knowing what pheromones are, and that incubation of an egg is a temperature based process and a rudimentary understanding of the beetle's lifecycle is all anyone should need to see how the debate is invalid and an impossible occurrence. Just basic understanding should be sufficient.

Maybe the part about wings was a bit unclear, that wasn't about what temps they can fly at, I'm sure they can fly at 65F. It's that when they undergo chrysalis and pupate into an adult, if the temps are continuously lower during that period, according to that research, they won't develop wings and therefore can't fly and can't mate.

[wayner123]

Most B&M's also often swear that the patches of fuzzy stuff found on some of their cigars is plume. :rolleyes:

Take a step back and think about it Wayne, how does a trap that operates by emitting pheromones (sex scents - this is an animals way of biologically saying "I'm ready to mate") to attract beetles of the opposite sex and then capture them, somehow trigger a temperature based incubation in an egg that has no capability of smell or ability to mate even if it could process a pheromone scent? Doesn't happen. Can't happen. Jr High school level biology classes cover this.

I'd say the B&Ms need to look at how they are operating their HVAC systems instead of pointing the finger at impossibilities that they don't seem to understand. Might as well just blame the guy across the street for painting his building whatever color he chose, that makes about as much sense as their trap theories.

I have a little bit of experience with some of the traps, but I don't feel that is really anything special or even necessary for this conversation, I'm not a pest control expert, or research scientist, or biologist (or whatever the field is called where you specialize in insects) . They are simply jumping to illogical conclusions. One shouldn't need any experience to see the disconnect - simply understanding that the traps are pheromone based, and knowing what pheromones are, and that incubation of an egg is a temperature based process and a rudimentary understanding of the beetle's lifecycle is all anyone should need to see how the debate is invalid and an impossible occurrence. Just basic understanding should be sufficient.

Maybe the part about wings was a bit unclear, that wasn't about what temps they can fly at, I'm sure they can fly at 65F. It's that when they undergo chrysalis and pupate into an adult, if the temps are continuously lower during that period, according to that research, they won't develop wings and therefore can't fly and can't mate.

Thank you for the write up on the trap debate.

Maybe I wasn't clear either. The temp of 63 (65 was where they raised it and still found them flying) degrees was kept constant. This was from a report that showed beetles may be evolving with temperature resistance.

[T.G]

Thank you for the write up on the trap debate.

Maybe I wasn't clear either. The temp of 63 (65 was where they raised it and still found them flying) degrees was kept constant. This was from a report that showed beetles may be evolving with temperature resistance.

Very interesting and worrisome. If you can find the link to that report, I'd very much appreciate it so I can read the report.

[wayner123]

Very interesting and worrisome. If you can find the link to that report, I'd very much appreciate it so I can read the report.

Here a link to an article on temperature resistance, however they make you pay for the full article now:

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1034/j.1399-5448.2002.02019.x?journalCode=afs

It was 13C which is roughly 55.5F. There are a couple other ones out of Japan too, and that is the ones I referenced at 63 and 65 degrees, but I'll have to be at work for the links.

[ylo2na]

Again, thanks for the response. After writing my last response, I quickly sent the ac down to 62 and most hygrometers in there read in the 60-62 range (at last count have 15-20 interspersed throughout the humidor). Since we are having abnormally lower temps the next few days, as suggested, I will leave the door open to the walk-in to utilize the outside 40+ temps anticipated for the next few days. As for RH, I really wasnt too concerned about that.
As an aside, dont sell yourself short on the knowledge you are passing out even though it may be rudimentary, as you explain. You have done a great service to all of us who are concerned about this problem; if nothing else, to get our brains working again to understand the logical, systematic process the beetle goes through in its life span. Now, it is up to us to do the checking, and where necessary, implement the correct methods needed to prolong the "life" of our "leafy" charges.
Best,
Ylo2na

[T.G]

Here a link to an article on temperature resistance, however they make you pay for the full article now:

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1034/j.1399-5448.2002.02019.x?journalCode=afs

It was 13C which is roughly 55.5F. There are a couple other ones out of Japan too, and that is the ones I referenced at 63 and 65 degrees, but I'll have to be at work for the links.

Thanks.

BTW, I just re-read what I wrote and I see a few things that were written poorly and could be taken incorrectly. I was trying to stress that something didn't require any highly advanced knowledge, and was not trying to point anything bad at you. Apologies if there was any misunderstanding there.

Again, thanks for the response. After writing my last response, I quickly sent the ac down to 62 and most hygrometers in there read in the 60-62 range (at last count have 15-20 interspersed throughout the humidor). Since we are having abnormally lower temps the next few days, as suggested, I will leave the door open to the walk-in to utilize the outside 40+ temps anticipated for the next few days. As for RH, I really wasnt too concerned about that.
As an aside, dont sell yourself short on the knowledge you are passing out even though it may be rudimentary, as you explain. You have done a great service to all of us who are concerned about this problem; if nothing else, to get our brains working again to understand the logical, systematic process the beetle goes through in its life span. Now, it is up to us to do the checking, and where necessary, implement the correct methods needed to prolong the "life" of our "leafy" charges.
Best,
Ylo2na

I don't know if leaving the door to the humidor vented to the outside like that is a good idea. You could introduce a new set of problems or other insects.

Welcome glad the info helped out a bit.

[ylo2na]

After rethinking my last post, I agree with you about not wanting to introduce more problems, i.e. insects and lizards and maybe even a stray "gator" from the conservation pond in the back yard. So, have decided to go with the 60 degree temp for a week or two and systematically check my sticks over the next few days before rushing to purchase a freezer. However, any sign of the beasties and I will be first in line at Walmart/Target.
ylo2na

[smokepuff]

Thanks SilverFox, great info! To the freezer my little babies :tu

[Duke9192]

Great information. I've never had this happen to me, but I'll start freezing all cigars before they go in my humidors.

[Chainsaw13]

Great information. I've never had this happen to me, but I'll start freezing all cigars before they go in my humidors.

It's a great practice, especially as you expand your collection. Think of the money invested. Small piece of mind to help insure your investment doesn't go to waste.

[Sherlockholms]

Nice post, any suggestions on freezing more then one cigar at a time? Is it ok to put say 10 cigars in a bag when freezing?

[Chainsaw13]

Nice post, any suggestions on freezing more then one cigar at a time? Is it ok to put say 10 cigars in a bag when freezing?

Sure, you can put more than one cigar in a bag at a time. Just do your best to squeeze out any air. You can also do whole boxes this way.

[Sherlockholms]

Sure, you can put more than one cigar in a bag at a time. Just do your best to squeeze out any air. You can also do whole boxes this way.

Thanks for the reply. That works, My stash should be OK and is small but I have been meaning to freeze some that came from a few retailers that I'm a little leery about. I will take the weekend and freeze them, The last few cigars I froze I used those ziplock freezer air seal bags. The ones where you pump the air out, and they worked pretty good. :)

[bonjing]

Matthew, Just make sure you freeze everything, all sticks. It's better to start now if you have a small stash versus going back and then saying, oh crap I should have froze everything.

[jesseboston81]

Matthew, Just make sure you freeze everything, all sticks.

:tpd: Freezing some and not others is pretty much like freezing nothing at all. Freezing doesn't make cigars immune from beetles, just kills any eggs/larvae/beetles that happen to be in them. Put a frozen cigar next to a never-frozen cigar and any beetle issues that start in the never-frozen cigar can easily transfer to the frozen cigar. General rule: don't trust anyone; it's your stash and up to you to protect it.

[jesseboston81]

Thanks for the reply. That works, My stash should be OK and is small but I have been meaning to freeze some that came from a few retailers that I'm a little leery about. I will take the weekend and freeze them, The last few cigars I froze I used those ziplock freezer air seal bags. The ones where you pump the air out, and they worked pretty good. :)

Similar to the last two posts, if you previously froze some cigars and then mixed them with never-frozen cigars, you're going to want to freeze them all, even the ones you froze previously.

[Sherlockholms]

They all shall be freezed then. I got half in the freezer right now and I will get the other half ready to freeze.

[kgoings]

So I have a question. How long can an egg lay dormant? I mean if an egg doesnt hatch for say a year...will it ever hatch?

[wayner123]

So I have a question. How long can an egg lay dormant? I mean if an egg doesnt hatch for say a year...will it ever hatch?

I have not been able to find any studies done on this, and the ones that do address it, use words like "for some time". Also of note, some studies simply say that unless a temp of 80F is reached the Lasioderma serricorne will remain dormant. So that leaves the door wide open.

[688sonarmen]

I will be freezing mine this weekend, until then I have a suspect box in my old coolidor. Can I freeze a box that is not full (ie has 20 out of 25 sticks) or should I just unbox and freeze all 20 together? I'm thinking the latter. Has anyone had any issues from not removing enough air? I'm going to buy a bunch of the freezer food saver bags but if I can do it with big ziplocks that would be better. After having beetles hatch it's going to be a relief to freeze and not worry every day above 72f in the house.

[Sherlockholms]

I will be freezing mine this weekend, until then I have a suspect box in my old coolidor. Can I freeze a box that is not full (ie has 20 out of 25 sticks) or should I just unbox and freeze all 20 together? I'm thinking the latter. Has anyone had any issues from not removing enough air? I'm going to buy a bunch of the freezer food saver bags but if I can do it with big ziplocks that would be better. After having beetles hatch it's going to be a relief to freeze and not worry every day above 72f in the house.

You can use the big freezer ziplock bags, just make sure you suck as much of the air out as you can with a straw. I got mine in the freezer today. One bag I used a ziplock vacume seal bag. Sucked the air out, then put it in a freezer ziplock bag and sucked the air out. The other two I just used the big ziplock bags, did the same thing and then bagged them again etc. Hope that helps some.

[NCRadioMan]

Can I freeze a box that is not full (ie has 20 out of 25 sticks) or should I just unbox and freeze all 20 together? I'm thinking the latter. Has anyone had any issues from not removing enough air?

Either/or, it doesn't matter. Why would it matter if you remove all the air or not? :confused:

[Sherlockholms]

Either/or, it doesn't matter. Why would it matter if you remove all the air or not? :confused:

I think freezer burn maybe? I read it somewhere. Something about moisture trapped in the air, so any extra air or too much and you can get frost on the sticks. Something or another. Ill have to see if I can find where I read it.

[bobarian]

Freezer burn takes weeks to occur. As long as you get most of the air out you should be fine, the main thing is to be sure you freeze long enough. 72-96hours. :2

[688sonarmen]

Either/or, it doesn't matter. Why would it matter if you remove all the air or not? :confused:

I think freezer burn maybe? I read it somewhere. Something about moisture trapped in the air, so any extra air or too much and you can get frost on the sticks. Something or another. Ill have to see if I can find where I read it.

I don't know, I'm just assuming it could cause the cigars to burst since there is all the talk about removing air. I don't see any mention of it. I think as long as they are sealed in the RH that I would what to store them in I should be safe from and drying effects in the freeze. What the hell I'm going to do it and quit yapping.

[NCRadioMan]

I think freezer burn maybe? I read it somewhere. Something about moisture trapped in the air, so any extra air or too much and you can get frost on the sticks. Something or another. Ill have to see if I can find where I read it.

Sorry bro but that makes no sense to me. Moisture is much higher in the cigars than in a bag you just put them in. That tiny, tiny amount of room temp air isn't going to harm anything. Been freezing for almost 6 years and never had any problems. It's not rocket science. Double bag the cigars, leave in freezer, take cigars out and let them acclimate to room temp then in the humidor.

[Sherlockholms]

Sorry bro but that makes no sense to me. Moisture is much higher in the cigars than in a bag you just put them in. That tiny, tiny amount of room temp air isn't going to harm anything. Been freezing for almost 6 years and never had any problems. It's not rocket science. Double bag the cigars, leave in freezer, take cigars out and let them acclimate to room temp then in the humidor.

Lol, go ahead and disregard my rambling.

[jjirons69]

Froze many a box, never completely shed of air. NEver had any problems whatsoever. Recipe: -10F in my deep freezer for 3 days, 6 hours in the frig, then unpack and store away. Smoke at your leisure. Mr. Biscuit has a valid point - the air is fine. Double-bag and go.

[NCRadioMan]

Lol, go ahead and disregard my rambling.

Re-reading my post I came off a bit harsh. Sorry for that. http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/images/icons/icon11.gif

[Sherlockholms]

Np, I should have found some info first before posting. I'm sure it just confused Jake more then it did help him. I was going off of memory, and you are more experienced then I am in this matter! Thanks for your info and input Chutney.

[kneedragger]

Finished freezing my first bundle today and i didnt screw anything up thanks to this thread :banger

[thermal]

Cryonics (from Greek kryos- meaning icy cold) is the low-temperature preservation of humans and animals who can no longer be sustained by contemporary medicine, with the hope that healing and resuscitation may be possible in the future. Cryopreservation of people or large animals is not reversible with current technology.

[icehog3]

Cryonics (from Greek kryos- meaning icy cold) is the low-temperature preservation of humans and animals who can no longer be sustained by contemporary medicine, with the hope that healing and resuscitation may be possible in the future. Cryopreservation of people or large animals is not reversible with current technology.

Yeah, great. This thread is about freezing cigars. I know you feel you have to post something to justify your vendor links, but can you make that something cigar related?

[massphatness]

But is cryopreservation of cigars reversible, Tom? I have heard serious wrapper damage can occur.

[icehog3]

But is cryopreservation of cigars reversible, Tom? I have heard serious wrapper damage can occur.

Vin, the last time I cryopreserved my cigars, I actually went back in time.

[massphatness]

Vin, the last time I cryopreserved my cigars, I actually went back in time.

Maybe I'll try that -- I'd like to go back to when I fit into size 36 Levis -- when I was 15.

[icehog3]

Maybe I'll try that -- I'd like to go back to when I fit into size 36 Levis -- when I was 15.

I enjoyed the past, until I found out there was no microwave popcorn before microwave ovens were invented.

[CigarNut]

Vin, the last time I cryopreserved my cigars, I actually went back in time.

I enjoyed the past, until I found out there was no microwave popcorn before microwave ovens were invented.Didn't know you were old enough to even remember a time before microwave popcorn Admiral! :lr

[icehog3]

Didn't know you were old enough to even remember a time before microwave popcorn Admiral! :lr

My Mom bought the original Amana microwave when they came out, I think that thing weighed 150 pounds, Michael. :r

[CigarNut]

My Mom bought the original Amana microwave when they came out, I think that thing weighed 150 pounds, Michael. :rWe had one of those too -- it was a "Radar Range"... Big, Clunky, and very cool at the time :)

It was so big it did not fit on the counter and we had to get a little table for it...

[Tyler]

Well I am paranoid now lol. Should I freeze my whole stash now?

[DPD6030]

Well I am paranoid now lol. Should I freeze my whole stash now?

yes

[nosdog2]

Can you freeze them too long? Reason I am asking is I have some new cigars and my humidor is set to be delivered today. Can I freeze them while I season the humidor?? Or should I wait and store them in tupperware untill I get the humidor squared away and then freeze them for storage?

[T.G]

Just freeze them when they come in, then put them in the tupperware while you wait for the humidor to be ready.

As for too long, depends. A week? Nah. 10 days? Nah. A month? Yeah, probably, but depends a lot on the freezer. Not that it'll physically hurt the cigars so much as they might start to pick up that wonderful "freezer/frost taste" after that long if it's one that cycles tempratures a lot or is opened often (like most home refrigerator/freezer combos).

[Devanmc]

Can you freeze them too long? Reason I am asking is I have some new cigars and my humidor is set to be delivered today. Can I freeze them while I season the humidor?? Or should I wait and store them in tupperware untill I get the humidor squared away and then freeze them for storage?

well i did a huge batch freeze of everything in a brothers meat freezer. we forgot about a bag of sticks. they were cheapies but i think they were frozen for 3weeks. They are smoking fine.

[Blak Smyth]

Do I understand the OP correctly?
At 32 degrees it would take 1176 hours to ensure beetles of all stages are killed?

"0 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 1176 hr"

[wayner123]

Do I understand the OP correctly?
At 32 degrees it would take 1176 hours to ensure beetles of all stages are killed?

"0 degrees C Time to 100% mortality 1176 hr"


Yes, that is correct. However a typical home fridge can get colder than that.

[Blak Smyth]

Yes, that is correct. However a typical home fridge can get colder than that.

Even at 23 degrees it would take 504 hours?
That is a lot longer than I thought, I have some in the freezer now, guees I will leave them in longer than planned.

[wayner123]

Even at 23 degrees it would take 504 hours?
That is a lot longer than I thought, I have some in the freezer now, guees I will leave them in longer than planned.

Does your freezer keep ice cream well? If so, then it's certainly colder than 32F. Get yourself a reliable thermometer and see just how cold it is. My home freezer is around 0F. It swings up and down but that's about average. At that temp it takes only 12 hours.

[nosdog2]

Thanks guys. My freezer is new and it maintains -2* so I should be good to go.

[jesseboston81]

After the freezing process is done, do you need to put a box into the humidor in any special way? For example, after freezing I used to put all my boxes in with their lids cracked for a couple weeks to let the cigars balance out, but now room is tight and I'm not able to do that anymore. Is it going to be a problem to put a full dress box in there with the lid closed? Will the cigars still be able to balance out?

[massphatness]

You shouldn't have to crack the lids on any boxes once they go back into the humidor. Just to reiterate from the OP though, it's wise to go from freezer to fridge in order to bring the temp up slowly THEN go to the humi. I follow this practice religiously, and it has given me great peace of mind.

[jesseboston81]

You shouldn't have to crack the lids on any boxes once they go back into the humidor. Just to reiterate from the OP though, it's wise to go from freezer to fridge in order to bring the temp up slowly THEN go to the humi. I follow this practice religiously, and it has given me great peace of mind.

I wasn't clear enough, but that's what I meant by the "freezing process." This box has already gone fridge (24 hours) -> freezer (3 days) -> fridge (24 hours) -> room temp (12 hours). Now that that's all done I was wondering about cracking the lid upon placing the box in the humidor, so thanks for being able to answer my actual question despite my unclear explanation! :D

[MrClean]

I got a nice sample box from AVO with 7 sticks in it. Can I just freeze the sticks or should I just put the whole box in the freezer? I do plan on putting them back in the box and in the humi after the freeze cycle.

[14holestogie]

Box and all brother. Don't overthink it.:tu

[MrClean]

Box and all brother. Don't overthink it.:tu

Thanks Tim, I do that sometimes :)