The Under $20 A Bottle Wine Thread:

[JohnnyFlake]

There is a great wine thread (The Wine Thread), that is already in process, and there are a few very knowledgeable wine enthusiast posting there. It's a great thread and should not be missed, however, for the most part, they seem to cover higher-end wines, which most of us can only afford on rare occasions. As a result, I decided to start this thread, for wines that are available, at under $20 a bottle.

Please post your recommendations, reviews and Super Sales Info. of any and all categories of wine, from all countries, HERE! The only guideline, is that the wine must be available, in retail stores, for $20 a bottle or less!!!

I'll start this out with a recommendation I received this morning from a relative living back in Illinois. It sounds like a winner, so I'll be on the look out for a bottle or two to try. If I find it, I'll post a review.

Mark West Pinot Noir '07 Ranked #1 of 52 "Light New World Reds Under $15"

FRANKLY, IT'S BETTER THAN MOST $30 PINOT!

Rank: #1 out of 52 light New World reds under $15

The Wine Trials, July, 2008

"... compares well to Pinots selling for twice the price. At $15, the Central Coast Pinot offers superb value.”

Decanter Magazine (The U.K.'s leading wine magazine) on the Mark West Pinots

To say this wine is a bargain is an understatement. The color, aroma and flavor exhibit all the classic notes of what makes Pinot Noir so bewitching: exotic, mouthwatering aromas; plush flavors on a silky texture and that haunting whisper of earth on the finish. Unfortunately it can be hard to find a good Pinot Noir - there are certainly many more duds than beauties - from hollow and washed-out versions to the all-too-common over-extracted, over-oaked monstrosities (think of a delicate sushi-grade piece of Tuna being battered, deep-fried and smothered with ketchup). But the newly released 2007 Mark West Pinot is the real article: complex, elegant and supple. AND IT'S LESS THAN $10!

That's right, you get a superb Pinot Noir made from grapes grown in California's best appellations - such as Santa Barbara, Sonoma, Napa and Mendocino - that's aged using 100% French oak, made by one of the most brilliant winemakers on the west coast -- AND IT'S LESS THAN $10!!

It get's better. Buy one case or more and get 10% off your purchase! THAT'S LESS THAN $9!!! What a fantastic deal to start the New Year with. There is no other Pinot Noir sold today that even comes close to rivaling this kind of value, especially in a short-supply vintage like 2007.

TODAY'S SPECIAL OFFER
2007 Mark West Pinot Noir
California

Just $9.99 a bottle!

~ from winemaker Alex Cose:

Enticing aromas of rich cherry pie, raspberry preserves and ripe plums with barrel notes of exotic vanilla, golden molasses and shortbread cookie. Oak aging rounds out the palate and gives the wine its body. Juicy fruit on the palate tasting of dark red raspberry, jammy strawberry and baked peaches. Our 2007 drinks in juicy fresh berry flavors that stay bright and linger. The finish is full of bright red fruit flavors with a supple texture.

Sam's Price: $9.99 a 750ml bottle!

[Bruzee]

Great post!!! Most of my favs are all under $20. I'll post some later.

[lightning9191]

I really enjoy Cline's Ancient Vine Zin....good stuff for around $15

[gvarsity]

I am figuratively besotted with the Ercavio tempranillo and it runs $10-12 a bottle. Big, fruity very accessible. Takes a bit to really open up. I have many a bottle that didn't deliver at 2x-3x the price. It's not a "great" wine but it's a very tasty one. Although price can be a very deceiving factor.

[JohnnyFlake]

I am figuratively besotted with the Ercavio tempranillo and it runs $10-12 a bottle. Big, fruity very accessible. Takes a bit to really open up. I have many a bottle that didn't deliver at 2x-3x the price. It's not a "great" wine but it's a very tasty one. Although price can be a very deceiving factor.

Are there any particular years that seem better than average to you? Where is this wine from?

[JohnnyFlake]

I really enjoy Cline's Ancient Vine Zin....good stuff for around $15

Are there any particular years that seem better than average to you? Where is this wine from?
__________________

[nozero]

As with cigars my tastes in wine are rather immature, but I really like Llano Etacado's Riesling (http://www.llanowine.com/detail.aspx?ID=2) from Texas. It's around $11.00

[JohnnyFlake]

As with cigars my tastes in wine are rather immature, but I really like Llano Etacado's Riesling (http://www.llanowine.com/detail.aspx?ID=2). It's around $11.00

Where is this wine from?

[nozero]

Where is this wine from?

Oops, edited my post to add it's from Texas.

From the link.
A short supply of high quality Texas Riesling has restricted our production. In order to provide our customers with an ample supply of this popular variety, we have utilized premium grapes and juice from Texas, Washington, and California.

[mosesbotbol]

I like Symington's Altano (Douro Red) 89WS can be found for under $10 and is amazing. Bought cases of it. Has some aging potential as well. There's also a reserve, for a little more.

Wine Spectator "A big structure and firm acidity give this red plenty of muscle, backed up by fresh, focused flavors of red plum, berry, cherry and spice. Crisp, clean finish. Tinta Roriz and Touriga Franca. Drink now through 2010. 35,000 cases made."

[Buena Fortuna]

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l223/curtnrod/7deadlyzins.jpg

Lustful Flavors:
A vibrant, sweet bouquet of raspberry jam, molasses and cinnamon toast evoke the senses of carefree youthful nights. Excellent oak integration provides silken tannins and spice to pair with Lodi’s unrestricted wild berry fruit.

Gluttonous Pairings:
Our 7 Deadly pairs sinfully well with BBQ’d Salmon, prime rib or grilled veggies. Get crazy with delectable dark chocolate desserts!

Schulenburg's vines, grubby with GREED,
Embrace Lodi's soil, to drink and to feed.
Oh Lord, forgive me my zin.
Secure in it's strength, weathered with PRIDE,
Standing like soldiers, the forest of Snyde.
Oh Lord, forgive me my zin.
Hearts filled with LUST, ole Maley's trees.
Court Lodi's sun, and flirt with it's breeze.
Oh Lord, forgive me my zin.
Good Bishofberger did raise some GLUTTONOUS beast,
Vines fattened like turkeys before Thanksgiving feast.
Oh Lord, forgive me my zin.
With the tilt of the glass, I commit seven zins,
Oh Lord, with your help... I'll do it again.
Indulge!

[goalie204]

Dont know much about wine, but Woodbridge by robert mondavi johannesburg riesling is my favorite for around 10 bux ish

[scoot]

Cisco Red and Night Train Express are a few of my favorites and can be found well under $10. Serve well chilled.

[JohnnyFlake]

I love the suggestions that are starting to pop up. I'm always looking for new wines to try.

May I suggest, that when suggestions are made, that a little more info be given. In addition to the name of the wine, it would be helpful to all, if the style of wine is mentioned, the country of origin and your favorite year, if applicable!

I find the country of origin to be extremely good info because in the largest liquor stores the wines are sectioned off by country of origin. This makes it much easier to locate a wine of name.

[gvarsity]

I am figuratively besotted with the Ercavio tempranillo and it runs $10-12 a bottle. Big, fruity very accessible. Takes a bit to really open up. I have many a bottle that didn't deliver at 2x-3x the price. It's not a "great" wine but it's a very tasty one. Although price can be a very deceiving factor.


Are there any particular years that seem better than average to you? Where is this wine from?

I'm partially to the 2006 but the 2007 is good as well.

http://www.bodegasercavio.com/

The vineyards are 60km east of Toledo Spain.

[PeteSB75]

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l223/curtnrod/7deadlyzins.jpg

Lustful Flavors:
A vibrant, sweet bouquet of raspberry jam, molasses and cinnamon toast evoke the senses of carefree youthful nights. Excellent oak integration provides silken tannins and spice to pair with Lodi’s unrestricted wild berry fruit.

Gluttonous Pairings:
Our 7 Deadly pairs sinfully well with BBQ’d Salmon, prime rib or grilled veggies. Get crazy with delectable dark chocolate desserts!

Schulenburg's vines, grubby with GREED,
Embrace Lodi's soil, to drink and to feed.
Oh Lord, forgive me my zin.
Secure in it's strength, weathered with PRIDE,
Standing like soldiers, the forest of Snyde.
Oh Lord, forgive me my zin.
Hearts filled with LUST, ole Maley's trees.
Court Lodi's sun, and flirt with it's breeze.
Oh Lord, forgive me my zin.
Good Bishofberger did raise some GLUTTONOUS beast,
Vines fattened like turkeys before Thanksgiving feast.
Oh Lord, forgive me my zin.
With the tilt of the glass, I commit seven zins,
Oh Lord, with your help... I'll do it again.
Indulge!

I was just about to mention this. One of my favorite California Zins and an excellent buy at about $15-17 a bottle. I don't recall them doing vintage years on this one.

[:eevis]

NY has a lot of good wineries (sp?) Most of them run under $20. Well worth trying Hazlitt Red Cat, Bully Hill's Love my Goat or Le Goat Blush, and Heron HIll Riesling :2

[BengalMan]

I really like Ravenswood for under $20

[JohnnyFlake]

I just finished my last bottle of the following with dinner tonight. I had purchased six bottles, around Thanksgiving time, last year. This is a wonderful wine, at a great price. It can be had in the $10/$12 range, although, it's becoming hard to find now days. I'll be looking for a few more bottles this coming week.

Penfolds, 'Koonunga Hill', Shiraz Cabernet, 2006 - an Australian offering.

[JohnnyFlake]

I hear from friends in Chicago, that this is a great wine, at a very reasonable price! I'm going to see if I can find any in my area over the weekend!

2006 Santa Helena Pinot Noir
Gran Reserva Selecciòn, Casablanca, Chile
Just $12.99!!!

Here's the kind of Pinot that freaks Sideways' freaks: funky, fruity, famously layered in fragrance and flavor. The alluvial soils & cool pocket of Chile's Casablanca Valley turn out a Pinot that's a cross between what's best about Burgundy - those scents of the earth, meat & fecund earth - and Oregon - the red fruit flavors that jump out of the glass, into your nose, and slither deliciously down your throat. Terrific now, but can age profitably for another 18 months to two years. Try with dishes that mirror its complexity: braises, stews, vegetable lasagnas. Or eat it up with Burgundian cheeses such as Epoisses. Super yummy.

[bvilchez]

Now I know that the regs state that the wine must be available in a retail store and I know for a fact i've seen some of these there. But I just wanted to throw this out there since I saw this in a magazine as an advertisement. If it's improper by all means feel free to discard this post.

https://www.wsjwine.com/individual_offer.aspx?promo=2001008

[Finfan13]

I really only drink reds, and mostly cabs, temperanillo..like the tannin to be firm. My current favorites:

Borsao Crianza 2005 Spanish temperanillo $13
Foppiano 2004 (i think or maybe 05) cab, russian river valley, CA $14
Odfjell 05 Chile Cab $10
Tres Picos, spanish red, 07 (better than the 06), $14

cant miss go to Hess Select $16. i think its a CA cab.

Ive been reading a lot on pjwines.com. good info there and lots of good suggestions, especially for cheaper wines.
hope this helps.

[mosesbotbol]

I really only drink reds, and mostly cabs, temperanillo..like the tannin to be firm. My current favorites:

Borsao Crianza 2005 Spanish temperanillo $13
Foppiano 2004 (i think or maybe 05) cab, russian river valley, CA $14
Odfjell 05 Chile Cab $10
Tres Picos, spanish red, 07 (better than the 06), $14

cant miss go to Hess Select $16. i think its a CA cab.

Ive been reading a lot on pjwines.com. good info there and lots of good suggestions, especially for cheaper wines.
hope this helps.

Familiar with the Tres Picos and is pretty good.

Have you had the Maques de Carceres Reserva? That is under $20 and quite good. Needs a few hours to breathe though.

[Finfan13]

Familiar with the Tres Picos and is pretty good.

Have you had the Maques de Carceres Reserva? That is under $20 and quite good. Needs a few hours to breathe though.

thanks for the tip. ive picked it up a few times and almost brought a bottle home, but not yet. now i will.

[mosesbotbol]

thanks for the tip. ive picked it up a few times and almost brought a bottle home, but not yet. now i will.

Make sure it's the Reserva, the regular production bottle is OK, but nothing special. They also make a Gran Reserva for around $30, which I have never tried.

If you are a Spanish wine lover, you must try Muga; have you had one yet?

[Caymus]

I agree with you, Johnny, regarding the Mark West Pinot. It's very hard to find a good Pinot for less than $20, but Mark West is one of them. Just make sure to look at the label very carefully. A lot of people "discovered" Mark West, and I guess they ran into a shortage of juice. One recent vintage of MW was made from Italian grapes ! I hate when wineries do this...so check your Mark West label very carefully and make sure it's from the Central Coast of California. I inadvertantly drank some of the Italian Mark West and it wasn't good.

[TheRiddick]

Another well priced Pinot Noir made from Central Coast fruit, and a much better wine than Mark West, IMO, is Echelon, or even Estancia. Both should be in the $14-20 range on Right Coast. Sebastiani bottlings as well.

[JohnnyFlake]

I agree with you, Johnny, regarding the Mark West Pinot. It's very hard to find a good Pinot for less than $20, but Mark West is one of them. Just make sure to look at the label very carefully. A lot of people "discovered" Mark West, and I guess they ran into a shortage of juice. One recent vintage of MW was made from Italian grapes ! I hate when wineries do this...so check your Mark West label very carefully and make sure it's from the Central Coast of California. I inadvertently drank some of the Italian Mark West and it wasn't good.

Thanks for the heads-up on the above. That's a very good point!

[JohnnyFlake]

Another new find, from Spain, with a very reasonable price tag!

Taja Reserva Jumilla 2003

Wine Spectator: 90 Points - Deep loamy and gamy flavors wrap around cherry and kirsch fruit in this dense red. Sun-baked and solid, with well-integrated tannins and fresh acidity. A traditional style. Monastrell (Mourvedre), Cabernet Sauvignon, Tempranillo and Merlot. Drink now through 2015.

Retail Price: $9.99!

[Caymus]

Haven't had Echelon, but I love everything Estancia makes. Thier Pinot is from Monterey (as is their Chardonnay I believe) so it has a different flavor profile than Mark West, but it is very reliable and a great bargain. It was my go-to Pinot at one point. Their cabernet from Paso Robles is good too.

If I may make a suggestion for an even greater value, Meridian Pinot can be found for as low as $6.99 and it's worth much more than that....great wine for the price.

[King James]

2 buck chuck from trader joe's :tu

[TheRiddick]

Actually, I'll drink 2BC before I drink the highly touted Tres Picos, which I find heavily manipulated, overly extracted, with too much residual sugar to make the wine palatable. 2BC Chard is actually a nice wine and a great value, fools a number of experienced palates in a blind tasting. Their reds are OK, but avoid Syrah (its just crap).
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JohnnyFlake,

Nice point score, but that "sun baked" descriptor rings a bell for me, and not a good one at that. Means way overripe fruit. Same as that Tres Picos above.

[JohnnyFlake]

Actually, I'll drink 2BC before I drink the highly touted Tres Picos, which I find heavily manipulated, overly extracted, with too much residual sugar to make the wine palatable. 2BC Chard is actually a nice wine and a great value, fools a number of experienced palates in a blind tasting. Their reds are OK, but avoid Syrah (its just crap).
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JohnnyFlake,

Nice point score, but that "sun baked" descriptor rings a bell for me, and not a good one at that. Means way overripe fruit. Same as that Tres Picos above.

Why would you sign this post in my name, JohnnyFlake???

[TheRiddick]

It wasn't signed with your name, simply a reply to your post (instead of posting 2 separate replies).

[Finfan13]

Make sure it's the Reserva, the regular production bottle is OK, but nothing special. They also make a Gran Reserva for around $30, which I have never tried.

If you are a Spanish wine lover, you must try Muga; have you had one yet?

never tried a muga. see em all the time and see,ms as tho they can get pricey. is there a good inexpensive muga?

also...i just tried a new one, CA red Kelley Creek 2006 tributary. really liked this one. just a nice rounded tannin taste full of flavor. im not sophisticated with the wine palate.

[JohnnyFlake]

It wasn't signed with your name, simply a reply to your post (instead of posting 2 separate replies).

No problem! It just looks like my name was used, the way the post turned out.

Johnny

[mosesbotbol]

never tried a muga. see em all the time and see,ms as tho they can get pricey. is there a good inexpensive muga?


LOL... Is there a good cheap Cohiba? It's all relative. Buy the oldest Muga you can afford. They really age well. I mean $30 bucks for a one bottle shouldn't break you... Maybe not a wine for a daily quaffer for most, but if you like Spanish wine, this would be a step up.

Needs at least an hour to breathe.

[JohnnyFlake]

Another great wine, that's a bit hard to find, but well worth the search!!!

This wine will cost you between $13 and $16 a bottle, depending on where your located.

Louis Martini Sonoma Cabernet Sauvignon 2006

Wine Advocate: 90 Points - One of the finest bargains in California Cabernet Sauvignon must be Louis M. Martini's outstanding 2006 Cabernet Sauvignon Sonoma... Fabulously sweet aromas of black currants, licorice, and cedar soar from the glass of this medium to full-bodied wine. With silky tannins as well as surprising concentration, depth, and texture, this 2006 should drink well for 8-10 years.

Now owned by the Gallo family, but still run by Michael Martini, the quality of these wines merits serious attention.

[TheRiddick]

You need to learn how to "read" Parker reviews and then apply that to your own taste preferences. For example, that cedar note SOARING from the glass indicates large amount of oak present. If you like lots of oak, great, this wine is for you. If not, the point score in this case is meaningless. And I would also question "sweet aromas" note and licorice, means a noticeable amount of residual sugar in wine; if you like your wine dry, then this may not be a wine for you.

But in general, Louis Martini wines are pretty solid and worth tracking down. I have not had this particular wine so can't comment beyind the tasting note you posted.

Another label you should try is Steltzner, year in and year out one of the best values around. Their Claret should be under $20 and if anything, I'll take it over L. Martini any day of the week, Parker review or not. Once you move up to $40-50 per bottle range, L. Martini is definitely a wine to seek out, they are on par with almost anything at or double the price. Their Monte Rosso Vineyard bottlings, Zin and Ca, are seriously great wines.

[mosesbotbol]

Parker is usually accurate in dry wine descriptions; it's whether something he describes is the kind of wine you like...

[JohnnyFlake]

You need to learn how to "read" Parker reviews and then apply that to your own taste preferences. For example, that cedar note SOARING from the glass indicates large amount of oak present. If you like lots of oak, great, this wine is for you. If not, the point score in this case is meaningless. And I would also question "sweet aromas" note and licorice, means a noticeable amount of residual sugar in wine; if you like your wine dry, then this may not be a wine for you.



Taste is very subjective, therefore, any source of reviews, for wine, whiskey, coffee, cigars and so on, should be taken with a grain of salt. That is, of course, until you have had the chance to make your own, individual tasting, of whatever the subject matter is!

Comparing your individual tasting notes, with those of the more popular aficionados, is how one learns to follow the reviews of those, that closely match your own taste.

Your description of what Parker's Reviews mean to you are subjective, with respect to you. They are your opinions and others may disagree. That is neither good or bad, however, it is a perfect example of what I just stated above!

[TheRiddick]

Hmmm... I did not compare MY own tasting notes to Parker's, I simply explained what Parker's mean. Ask any serious wine geek and they will tell you same thing I did.

For example, any time you see Parker say ""leather", you are absolutely sure he is talking brett (although he'll never say brett since he can't tell it even if it hit on the head, he actually loves the taste by his own admission), yet for most people brett is a serious flaw in wine and a real turn off (ever smelled a cow/horse barn gone bad?). He and I had a pretty heated public discussion on the subject, all the winemakers were pretty appalled by his stance and lack of any undestanding of the subject. Same with filtration and such, notice how he touts most of the wines he covers as "unfined and un filtered" while most of them actually are. He is clueless on many subjects and I am not sure why people follow his advice (he was chased out of Burgundy a while back for his BS and stupidity and I wish same would happen in other regions, its time for him to retire).

Not that other wine reviewers are much better, no one is consistant and many guess where they shouldn't.

Main reason I am saying trust YOUR OWN PALATE, same as with cigars. True enough, though, you do need to find similar palates to follow, but that takes time and effort.

Try that Steltzner Claret I pointed out above, see what I mean.

[rizzle]

Wine smack!!
:pn

[mosesbotbol]

Brett can be a turnoff descriptor as you don't know how much there's going to be before you try it. Rhones and Brett can go hand in hand. I do think it does make wine complex, but one has to be very careful. I thought usually in wine, Brett is by accident or unavoidable? Things like TCA or VA are never really welcome.

[TheRiddick]

ALL wines have VA, by default. But some have more and some less, the more a wine has the more it is noticeable (think vinegary smells and taste). Once you start apprcoaching the 0.9% mark it becomes noticeable. TCA is just bad and in most cases it is bad corks (main reason alternative closures are gaining speed and market share). Brett is just bad. As much as I understand that a small amount of brett can sometimes enhance a wine and add to the complexity, you cannot control brett in any way.

The question and challenge I posed to Parker was to do a blind taste test, he could bring anyone he wants to along for the taste. I would place 5 (or whatever number he wanted) different wines in front of them, labels removed of course, and ALL they have to do is tell me what varietal each wine was made from. Simple test, right, for the supposed world's greatest palate?

As you can imagine, after all the chest beating Parker did up to that point, he disappeared.

Brett is just bad and one of the main faults in wine, according to any winemaking course or book. Too bad Parker put South Rhone on the map back in the 80s with all of his recommendations of seriously bretty wines and convinced wine drinkers that is what they are supposed to appreciate. Come to think of it, his early Burgundy finds and recommendations were all bretty as hell as well. Both regions are only now beginning to clean up their cellars (not all of them, of course), but its an expensive process and very costly.

VA is a hit an miss thing. Most consumers actually love the elevated VA levels, it makes the wine more "perfumy" on the nose and can enhance the tasting experience, but up to a point. Actually, if you see descriptors in a tasting note say "lifted nose" or something similar to that (soaring, elevated, jumping out of the glass as in the Martini note above) that is a clear indication of high VA levels in wine and this applies not only to Parker's notes but to others' as well.

Do your own test. Take a bottle, pour off some of the wine into glass A. Then add a very small amount of vinegar (if you have a small pippette at home, that helps) into the remaining wine in the bottle, shake the bottle gently and then pour some off into glass B. Smell them side by side. Keep adding vinegar to the bottle to see how much the wine changes as more vinegar is added.

[mosesbotbol]

You say Brett is a fault, they call it Terrior :cb

[TheRiddick]

You're right! That's what Parker said to me, according to him, "... wines with brett show the sense of place and that the winemaker cares, and they have SOUL...". Not sure what the winemaker cares for, though, Parker never made it clear. Most likely the pocketbook due to Parker's high scores.

As for his terroir BS (can't call it anything else), that was what prompted me to challenge him to a blind tasting, I didn't even ask him to name where the bretty bottle came from, simply for him to name the varietal it was made of. As I summed it up to him, The only thing brett shows is brett and nothing else, brett is brett no matter what continent or vineyard it came from and it ALWAYS has that same smell and taste with no regard to sense of place. Anyone can do this experiment and see where his argument falls flat on its face.

Don't get me wrong, there are more and more brett afflicted wines coming out of CA these days and I am sure its the winemakers selling out to get higher scores from Parker. 2 years ago at ZAP (annual event in SF) I was appalled at how many bretty wines were poured to the ecstatic populace with the point scores prominently displayed so that people can "drinks points".

A few monts ago my tasting group did a tasting of Syrah, double blind (we never display labels no matter what the theme is) and came across a particular bottle. While our table of 6 people were appalled at the brett in this bottle and all scored the wine very low becuase of it, the other table of 6 scored if very highly. The argument they gave us, and this from a winemaker at that table (half the group is either making wine or is cellar rats for a number of prominent CA labels): You guys just don't get this particular FRENCH bottle. I know what this wine and it is not brett, this is terroir and will blow off with age.

Low and behold, we unveiled this bottle after collecting all the scores. Yep, a highly rated and respected CA producer. Not French, as stipulated, no "terroir". Brett. Hilarious...

Just look at Wine Spectator review. While Laube is scoring any brett afflicted wine low (although he misses some here and there), Steinman NEVER reports on OR Pinots having brett issues and trust me, most of them do. We did a tasting of a good number of highly rated and reviewed OR Pinots recently and well, roughly 70% had serious issues with brett. But hey, maybe that's why so many out there say that OR Pinot most closely resembles Burgundy :-)) I can agree with that. But like I said, to Steinman there is no brett it seems, no wonder all the recent scores he gave to OR Pinot are in mid 90s. Buyer beware.

[mosesbotbol]

Would a CdP be a classic example of the region without a hint of Brett?

[TheRiddick]

No. Most famous is what, Pegau? Bretty as hell.

That's the wine that started my "discussion" with Parker in the first place. We had at least 3 lab tested bottles come back with positive results. Parker then claimed that HIS bottle, which he just popped, out of his own cellar as our online discussion was taking place, had NO BRETT, "whistle clean" as he called it. Unfortunately for him, the owner and winemaker of Pegau, Laurence, chimed in to state that ALL of their wines HAVE BRETT. That was a stunner, for sure. Not in terms of knowing about brett in their wines (anyone visiting the place will tell you how disgustingly unclean it is), but that Parker put his palate on the line and was contradicted by the owner of the winery.

Parker consistently scores Pegau high, but personally I can't believe people pay such a high price for a chemical experiment gone bad and then claim the wine is great only because Parker said so.

But I can also point you at a number of CdPs that are clean and do show their fruit well. Too bad they are not scored as highly as Pegau, but then again, that's a good thing in my book and their prices are not bid up by point chasers.

Big problem with brett is that even if you happen to pop a cork on a bottle that has small amounts of it, you really need to finish that bottle quickly or face brett bloom quickly with air contact.

The new generation of French vignerons is increasingly coming to study at UC Davis and other schools outside of France, many come to CA to work as cellar rats and hands as well and this is quickly changing what is going on in France in terms of cleanliness at the winery.

[Caymus]

OK, I'll take the risk....what is "Brett" ??

[TheRiddick]

Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brettanomyces

In general terms, its a spoilage bacteria (although actually a yeast). Like I said somewhere above, if you've ever been to a horse stable you know what it smells like. And once it blooms in a bottle, it takes over all other flavors leaving only the flavor of brett to "enjoy".

[rizzle]

Somebody earlier already mentioned this but I have decided to start buying this by the case. At ~$9 a bottle before the case discount I just don't see how you can go wrong. I'm really enjoying drinking this.

http://www.winepros.org/images/ps-bogle.jpg

[TheRiddick]

I have yet to have a "bad" bottle of anything Bogle. Solid lineup, year in and year out. That's a great price for the wine, it is more expensive here in CA. But I also found a good number of wines selling for less in FL than I see them here, can't figure this one out.

[MiamiE]

Anything J. Lohr.

[rizzle]

I have yet to have a "bad" bottle of anything Bogle. Solid lineup, year in and year out. That's a great price for the wine, it is more expensive here in CA. But I also found a good number of wines selling for less in FL than I see them here, can't figure this one out.
Somehow that just doesn't quite make sense does it?
:)

[mosesbotbol]

For under $20, Joseph Drouhin has several to choose from that are pretty good for the money. The Symington family also have a few that I consider steals for the money.

[TheRiddick]

Anyone into white wine, try a bottle of Bonny Doon Pacific Reisling, superb match for spicy food IMO. The wine usually sells for roughly $11-12 here in CA, but I've seen it at $9 in FL shops. Goes great with sushi as well.

[JohnnyFlake]

Another one, brought to my attention by relatives in Illinois. I'll be looking for this to try out this weekend.

Simonassi Malbec Mendoza 2007

Sam's Wine & Liquor Score: 90 - Impressive aromas of blackberry and plums lead the way. Pours a clear, deep purplish red. Big and rich with a nice silky tannic finish. This jammy yet fresh, and very quaffable. Perfect for many cuisines, including Mexican, Spanish, Indian and Italian.

$12.99 per bottle!

[BC-Axeman]

Brett! That's what causes that flavor. I hate it. I must have a low threshold for it. It makes wines taste dirty to me. If there are other great qualities to the wine I can overlook it, but it is only a negative, IMHO.

I'm going to Paso Robles for the weekend and I'll be picking up some cases of wine from EOS vineyards called Lost Angel, thier "Mischievous" and Petite Syrah. I am in their club so they are $12 a bottle. I'll be visiting a lot of other wineries while I'm there.

[PeteSB75]

Somebody earlier already mentioned this but I have decided to start buying this by the case. At ~$9 a bottle before the case discount I just don't see how you can go wrong. I'm really enjoying drinking this.

http://www.winepros.org/images/ps-bogle.jpg

Had a bottle of this last weekend. Spectacular. The guy at one of my local shops recommended another Petite Syrah and it was horrible. I threw it out. Popped this one after and it was like a breath of fresh air.

Also had a bottle of Bogle's Phantom on Wednesday. Awesome blend of Petite Syrah, Zinfandel and just a touch of Mourvedre. Delicious, and a steal at about $17. I think Bogle had just joined the top of my CA winery list these days, right along side Michael David. Excellent wines at very good prices.

[TheRiddick]

Most Petite producers kill the wine by using way too much oak when aging. As is, Petite is one of the most tannic grapes around (small berries with think skins), have no idea why add oak tannins on top of skin tannins that are already big.

What's Michael David? Not sure I've seen that one anywhere.

[TheRiddick]

OK, found them (Michael David). I know them by their actual wine labels, 7 Deadly Zins and the Earthquake Petite Sirah. The Petite is one of the best made in CA, IMO, and although in the $30 range (at least here) is a great bottle for the price. The Zin is very good as well.

[rizzle]

Will have to look up the Earthquake and give that a shot. Just finished off a bottle of their Petite Petit which has 15% Petite Verdot blended in with the Syrah. Really enjoyed that as well, my wife loves it. $20 + 1, so sorry if it doesn't fit the thread.

http://prime.premiergroup.net/store/images_products/michaeldavid_petitepetit_750.gif

[jonharky]

Casillero Del Diablo is a great bottle of wine that I have been able to pick up for about 10 bucks in MI

[SeanGAR]

http://winelibrary.com/images/38939.jpg

I've had this as cheap as 7.99 on sale (which is insane, I'd buy 10 cases at that price now), but for 12 bucks and under this is a great Chianti. One of the few wines I really like that I can't get here anymore and have to order from NJ. Clean flavors, well made, I've had the 04, 05 and 06 and all are nicely done.

A Spanish wine that is worth looking for is the Mas de Bazan Crianza. Had a bottle at Rioz Brazilian steakhouse on the weekend and was very impressed for a bottle running 26 bucks in the restaurant. I expect you'd pay 9-12 in stores, although it is hard to find online at a place that will ship to VA. Don't know why but I've only seen the 00 and 04 online. We had the 00 .. could still go a few more years.

http://www.randolphwinecellars.com/images/bn/100/18101.jpg

[SeanGAR]

Oh, and I HATE Brett except in lambic beers. Had a Crozes Hermitage recently that was absolutely undrinkable due to Brett. A tiny bit I can deal with .. but this was nasty.

[TheRiddick]

Parker most likely scored it high :-))

[BC-Axeman]

I just got back from Paso Robles and scored a big win. There is a small family winery and vineyard near San Miguel called Rainbow's End. They make wines in a style I really enjoy. Rich, fruity, high alcohol from hot grown grapes. Their wines are usually $20 a bottle. They are closing up the winery so all the cases of everything they have are $60 a case. I got a merlot, a port, a cab sauv, a petite syrah and something else I can't remember now. $5 a bottle. They will be closed in a month. Sometimes you just hit it.

[JohnnyFlake]

I am not much of a white wine drinker, although I do indulge now and then. My friends have sent me a recommendation on the following, advising that it is an exception wine.

2007 Kendall-Jackson "Vintners Reserve"
California Chardonnay

"Thanks to Jess Jackson's extraordinary agricultural empire of top-notch vineyards sprinkled throughout the state of California, the 2007 Vintner's Reserve Chardonnay is entirely made from estate fruit. It is 100% barrel-fermented, and aged five months with 100%malolactic, an incredible fact considering the volume produced. This cuvee seems to get better with each vintage as winemaker Randy Ullom is a virtuoso at producing such high quantity / high quality wine. Purchasers should be sure they are buying it from a retailer who stores it properly as this is a serious Chardonnay. Notes of melons, honeysuckle, and lemon oil along with remarkable flavor and texture are found in this wine, which can be purchased for under $15 a bottle. It is best consumed during the first 1-2 years of life."

~ Robert Parker, Wine Advocate, 90 Points

Retail Price: $13.99 a 750 ml bottle. It is often found for $10.95

[JohnnyFlake]

Here is another great buy according to a friend who pasted this on to me.

Delas Freres "Saint-Esprit" Cotes-du-Rhone 2007

Wine Advocate: 90 Points - The amazing 2007 Cotes du Rhone St.-Esprit (75% Syrah and 25% Grenache) reveals a northern Rhone orientation, but it is loaded with spice and black fruits, and displays a beautiful opulent texture as well as a gorgeous finish with impressive purity.

Price: $9.99/$10.99 at most retail outlets!

Unfortunately, I could not find a bottle of the Chardonnay I posted about just above. Has anyone tried it?

[TheRiddick]

Unfortunately, I could not find a bottle of the Chardonnay I posted about just above. Has anyone tried it?

Its a supermarket/drug store wine here in CA (I am serious).

[JohnnyFlake]

Its a supermarket/drug store wine here in CA (I am serious).

There is nothing wrong with that! This is an under $20 bottle of wine thread.

Have you tried it?

[12stones]

I just finished my last bottle of the following with dinner tonight. I had purchased six bottles, around Thanksgiving time, last year. This is a wonderful wine, at a great price. It can be had in the $10/$12 range, although, it's becoming hard to find now days. I'll be looking for a few more bottles this coming week.

Penfolds, 'Koonunga Hill', Shiraz Cabernet, 2006 - an Australian offering.

Picked up a bottle of this two weeks ago and opened it last night. Not bad. Will be having another tonight.

Glad I found this thread.

I'll have to add Dynamite Merlot 2005. Very, very nice.

[TheRiddick]

There is nothing wrong with that! This is an under $20 bottle of wine thread.

Have you tried it?

I like Chard on a dry and crisp side, this one has sugar in it.

If you want a real bargain without a point score attached, try a bottle of Toasted Head Chard, beats the ones you posted about, at least in my book. Should be $10-14 per bottle and widely available.

[SeanGAR]

I like Chard on a dry and crisp side, this one has sugar in it.
http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=254901
If you want a real bargain without a point score attached, try a bottle of Toasted Head Chard, beats the ones you posted about, at least in my book. Should be $10-14 per bottle and widely available.

Not a fan of the oaky-malolactic style chards such as toasted head.

In fact, I hate them with a deep and burning passion.

I don't drink whites much, but the last Chard that I liked was the Hogue unoaked I bought at their tasting room in Washington a few months back. It was a bit under 20 bucks if I remember right.

Had the Falchini Chianti Colli Senesi Colombaia 2006 recently ... side by side the Farnetello, I prefered the Falchini, which cost a buck or two more per bottle.

Oh, and not a fan of the Mark West Pinot Noir 2007. Not terrible but huge snore factor.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

anybody who posts here a fan of Wine Library TV with gary? This guy gives the best reviews on wines:2 heres a link http://tv.winelibrary.com/

[TheRiddick]

Not a fan of the oaky-malolactic style chards such as toasted head.

In fact, I hate them with a deep and burning passion.



At the price discussed, under $20, you won't get much in the line of dry and non-malo. Plus, its the style being discussed here, so I only obliged and between the KJ and Toasted Head I will take the latter, for sure. Sold who knows cases of it in my days in wine retail.

2 years ago I was at an Chivago offline with a bunch of wine geeks and someone brought a Magnum of Chablis that is no longer imported here, sadly so. The bottle had about 8 years on it already. I was lucky enough to be sitting next to the guy who brought it and while the rest of the crowd was concentrating on 5 incredible Champagnes (the likes of Salon, vintage Deutz, vintage Billecart-Salmon and others, which I also partook of), he and I pretty much finished that Magnum of Chablis before moving on to other stuff. Incredibly enough, the bottle was not expensive, roughly $80 (for a Magnum) and I was told there is a chance it will be brought in again by another importer.

I would recommend a few St. Verant to the guys here, but I see their taste preference is not there. But these wines are tasty and affordable, although not oaky and are crisp.

[Genetic Defect]

I like Morgante Nero d'Avola IGT Sicilia :)

[TheRiddick]

anybody who posts here a fan of Wine Library TV with gary? This guy gives the best reviews on wines:2 heres a link http://tv.winelibrary.com/

Know him well, he stayed at my house 3 years ago on one of his trips to CA. Nice dude. I think there are no more shows being taped?

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Know him well, he stayed at my house 3 years ago on one of his trips to CA. Nice dude. I think there are no more shows being taped?

Hes been taping all last week and now monday and tuesday this week. He seems like a down to earth guy. Does he smoke cigars?

[BC-Axeman]

I like my Chards buttery, toasty and smooth but I have had some good crisp, dry ones too. Too much oak seems to get in the way of the flavor of a lot of wines to me. I wish I knew what made a wine taste the way I like it when I find one and then be able to reliably translate that to other wines.
They seem so hit and miss to me. Label, year, region, winemaker, nothing seems to be a total indicator of what you are going to get.
What really pisses me off is when one year a particular wine is great and the next year it is a failure but the winery tries to pass it off for the same price anyway. I won't name names but this tells me something about the winery. I know one winery that will open the bottles and reblend this kind of stuff into a cheap table wine if it doesn't sell.

[TheRiddick]

Hes been taping all last week and now monday and tuesday this week. He seems like a down to earth guy. Does he smoke cigars?

Doesn't smoke at all. He told me in an email just 2 weeks ago he is done with the TV stuff since he is too busy with speeches and presentations. But its all good if he is back to taping (I think he emailed me on the way back from India).

[TheRiddick]

I like my Chards buttery, toasty and smooth but I have had some good crisp, dry ones too. Too much oak seems to get in the way of the flavor of a lot of wines to me. I wish I knew what made a wine taste the way I like it when I find one and then be able to reliably translate that to other wines.
They seem so hit and miss to me. Label, year, region, winemaker, nothing seems to be a total indicator of what you are going to get.
What really pisses me off is when one year a particular wine is great and the next year it is a failure but the winery tries to pass it off for the same price anyway. I won't name names but this tells me something about the winery. I know one winery that will open the bottles and reblend this kind of stuff into a cheap table wine if it doesn't sell.

Every vintage is different, as you pointed out. Best wineries out there come as close to prior vintages as it gets, others don't. Champagne and Cognac houses actually depend on this and have highly paid people who assemble the final blends so that they are almost identical from release to release to keep the "house style".

Main reason I keep telling people that cigars are pretty similar and what one smoked from a box made 3 years ago may be different than from a box made this year no matter how you cut it. Consistency year to year is the hallmark of great producers. The process is not that much dissimilar when one dissects it, only one works with grapes and another with tobacco leaves.

Try that Toasted Head, its all over the place in Bay Area. I think you'll like it.

[mosesbotbol]

If you want a real bargain without a point score attached, try a bottle of Toasted Head Chard, beats the ones you posted about, at least in my book. Should be $10-14 per bottle and widely available.

Yuck.

That tastes like the over-oaked cheapo Ca. Chard's... Ch. St. Michelle is better for similar price, as is Simi. I prefer Chablis or Meursault to Ca. Chard's.

[TheRiddick]

Moses,

Like I said, I'll take a good Chablis any time. But look at all the recommendations here, most people LOVE oaky chards and I am not here to judge anyone. Rombaur made his money and still does via his Chard, oak and RS in full force, but try selling something else in a CA wine shop to a customer, they won't even try anything else.

There is whole bunch of CA Chards that drink like better Burgs, but almost nothing makes it out of the state, sadly. Our supermarkets sometimes have much better selection of great CA wines than most of the high end shops on the Right Coast. Thank the 3 Tier distribution system for that.

[JohnnyFlake]

Here is another one to consider and it's a Pinot Noir, my personal favorite style of wine!

2007 Monte degli Angeli Pinot Noir

"A dark and brooding nose. On the palate confited blueberries and blackberries, all framed by more than a hint of baking spice. With time an earth note emerges, giving the wine a surprising complexity. Densely flavored--yet surprisingly lifted. A wondrously well-crafted wine that belies its modest site--or not so modest. After all, this is from the Piedmont--amongst the most hallowed grounds in all the Wine World. I'd call this a connoisseur's wine--but at this price point I'm happy that many will enjoy this. A wine that revels in power and complexity."

91 points, Jason Palma
Manager, Fine Wines; Sam's Wines and Spirits

Price: $9.99 per 750ml bottle!

[TheRiddick]

Arghhh....

Read the note again. Dark and brooding nose? In Pinot Noir? Wow, a first for me. Any mention of BLUE in a tasting note for Pinot Noir is a death knell for the wine and anyone looking for Pinot Noir FLAVOR in this wine will be deeply disappointed.

Recently, SF Chronicle had 3 local sommeliers assemble a week's worth of wines, 7 bottles, as their choices for a person on the street. The kicker was that each had only $150 to spend on the entire lot. All 3 came up with a nice list, whites and reds, IIRC even one Rose, but not one of them had a bottle of Pinot on their list (they all love it and drink it). When asked, all replied that anyone looking for decent (not even good) Pinot at $20 won't find one. Pretty true when one considers that last year, for the first time ever, average price per ton of Pinot Noir grapes exceeded even that of Cabernet Sauvignon.

What I am saying, buy the wine if you want WINE, simply a red wine, but in no way fool yourself you're buying PINOT NOIR. A whole bunch of French producers are now investigated for selling non Pinot Noir wines as such. I suspect this is another case, albeit from Italy now.

Piedmont is Sangiovese country, through and through, save for some Cabernet, merlot and maybe Syrah to produce the so called Super Tuscans. Anyone growing fruit there can easily make more than $10 wine simply by stating the region's name on the bottle, why would anyone forgo that and produce Pinot Noir? And make less? This is highly suspect to me and Sam's should know better.

Buy the aforementioned Bogle at that same price, I am sure you'll enjoy it much more. And won't have to guess what's really in that bottle.

[mosesbotbol]

Three reasonable Pinot Picks for under $20, that taste like pinot should are:

St. Michael-Eppan Pinot Nero Riserva

Louis Jadot Bourgone Village

Sipp Mack Pinot Noir

[BC-Axeman]

I have a lot of Pinot and I think the cheapest I have was $16 on sale 20% off. I would be suspicious of "dark and brooding" too and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn. WTH does that mean as nose anyway. It's in a bad mood and thinking about doing something really wicked and smells like it?
Still, if you taste it and like it....who cares.

[TheRiddick]

Moses,

Its in the eye of the beholder, right? I've yet to find a Burg, at less than $100+ per bottle, that talks to me, let alone one for $20 or less (for any Pinot). A lot of them have great nose, but no palate and a lot of them have no finish, even at higher price points. We could argue endlessly about pros and cons, but to my palate there is a clear difference. And lately, it is getting harder and harder to tell Burgs from well made CA Pinots, at least on the high end of both. Even the great Parker (sarcasm here), in a double blind tasting he set up a few years ago here in Napa, could not tell them apart, same goes for about 100 wine geeks and industry pros who paid to attend. The lines are way more blurred these days than anyone wants to admit to (and the point of that tasting).

There used to be some decent NZ Pinots that came close to $20, but even they are over that number lately and are mostly in the $40 range. There are just a few CA made Pinots that are in the $20 range that are worth drinking , but they all are available winery direct only and disappear the day after release (doh!).

Like I said, buy it for the WINE, not for PINOT NOIR you may be seeking, its not there.

A couple of years ago, we had a dinner at our house and a couple of guests, who thought they are "plugged into" great Pinot Noir by their local Whole Foods wine guy, proudly plopped a bottle they brought with them on the counter (Sidawys hooplawas still in full swing). Yep, Burg, mid $20s. Highly touted by the sales clerk. I didn't say anything, simply pulled out some stems, we poured and simply carried on a conversation, cheese and crackers to help out, awaiting the rest of the crowd to arrive. I then popped a bottle of CA Pinot open and poured, their eyes popped the second they stuck their noses in the glass, then they tasted and you could see their minds were now racing at full speed. Yep, a CA made Pinot Noir, in the $40+ range. Yes, I know, more than the wine they brought, but the difference was worth every penny according to them. But after that eye opening experience, they never bought a bottle of Burgundy again.

My tasting group was doing a Pinot tasting recently, someone snuck in a bottle of Burg, blind and all. Yep, no one took it for anything but a (badly made) CA Pinot, way overripe fruit, flabby and way too much oak for the fruit, all combined to muddle the nose and flavor. OK, bad year in Burgundy (2003) and all, but still, a good producer should make something decent anyway, at least enjoyable, which this was not. A $50 bottle. And this is not a lone example.

I am not saying that anyone in this thread should start buying expensive wines, simply that I find it difficult (and actually impossible) to recommend any Pinot Noir in the price range discussed, whether imported or domestic if someone is looking for PINOT NOIR and not just a bottle label that says it is. And when I see tasting notes and scores such as the one from Sam's, it makes me cringe, they simply scream "You've been warned, buy something else!"

I've had some really good German Pinot, in the $40+ range. NZ as well. But I have yet to have a Pinot made in Italy or Oz that convinced me to buy it, price independent. Burgs? I am still split on them and what I like are all in the $150-200+ range, way out of my league.

[pnoon]

I am not saying that anyone in this thread should start buying expensive wines, simply that I find it difficult (and actually impossible) to recommend any Pinot Noir in the price range discussed, whether imported or domestic if someone is looking for PINOT NOIR and not just a bottle label that says it is.
I'm not sure anyone asked you to recommend a Pinot Noir for under $20. If they did, and I missed it, I apologize. From what I can tell, this thread is meant to discuss what folks enjoy for under $20.

If it is difficult or impossible for you to make a suggestion, it is o.k. not to post in this thread. Or better yet, start another thread to discuss higher end wines. You obviously have some knowledge and experience of wine that most here don't.

[BC-Axeman]

Know any good wines under $20, Peter?
I have to admit that the Lost Angel Petit Syrah I mentioned before didn't taste like a Petit Syrah. It was a very good wine for $12 though. More "bright and cheerful". :D

[pnoon]

Know any good wines under $20, Peter?
I have to admit that the Lost Angel Petit Syrah I mentioned before didn't taste like a Petit Syrah. It was a very good wine for $12 though. More "bright and cheerful". :D

Quite a few, actually.

I don't think anyone here is expecting stellar wines for under $20. Just something that can be appreciated and enjoyed.

One of my personal favorites (more to come later) is a Pepperwood Grove Old Vine Zinfandel for around $8 at BevMo. Does it compare to the higher end California Zins in the $20-$40 price range? Of course not. But a delicious wine nonetheless.

:2

[croatan]

One of my personal favorites (more to come later) is a Pepperwood Grove Old Vine Zinfandel for around $8 at BevMo.
Their pinot rocks for $7, too. It's no Kosta Browne, but for a $7 bottle of wine, it's outstanding.

[TheRiddick]

One of my personal favorites (more to come later) is a Pepperwood Grove Old Vine Zinfandel for around $8 at BevMo. Does it compare to the higher end California Zins in the $20-$40 price range? Of course not. But a delicious wine nonetheless.:2

And you'd be right, of course. Nice wine to go with a fresh off the grill burger.

Just curious what attracted you to try the wine in the first place? The label that says "Old Vine"? Its not, I can assure you of that, its just a marketing ploy since there is no legal definition of the term and no ATF rules that say when one could use it. Or price? Bogle makes a much better wine for not much more (without confusing consumers with marketing tricks). Same for their Pinot Noir wine, was it the price that attacted you? Because I know of no wine geek who would reach for a bottle of PG Pinot if they want to drink PINOT.

Try a bottle of DeLoach California Pinot Noir, should be roughly $10-12 in your parts, let me know what you think. IMO, a much better wine than Pepperwood Grove (and I am not knocking PG, its OK for what it is).

[TheRiddick]

Their pinot rocks for $7, too. It's no Kosta Browne, but for a $7 bottle of wine, it's outstanding.

Wow, a Kosta Browne reference. How did you get your hands on one?

[pnoon]

And you'd be right, of course. Nice wine to go with a fresh off the grill burger.

Just curious what attracted you to try the wine in the first place? The label that says "Old Vine"? Its not, I can assure you of that, its just a marketing ploy since there is no legal definition of the term and no ATF rules that say when one could use it. Or price? Bogle makes a much better wine for not much more (without confusing consumers with marketing tricks). Same for their Pinot Noir wine, was it the price that attacted you? Because I know of no wine geek who would reach for a bottle of PG Pinot if they want to drink PINOT.

Try a bottle of DeLoach California Pinot Noir, should be roughly $10-12 in your parts, let me know what you think. IMO, a much better wine than Pepperwood Grove (and I am not knocking PG, its OK for what it is).

I first bought the PG because of the price point. I continue to buy it for what it is. Like cigars, sometimes I want a wine that I don't have to think and analyze to enjoy. I also make no claims as to the veracity of the labeling. What I do know is that I enjoy what I am drinking. And for what the participants and lurkers in this thread are looking for, I think it is a decent choice. I will certainly try the Bogle.

I have not seen nor tried the PG Pinot. I believe James (croatan) posted earlier about it. I am not a big fan of Pinots in general but am always willing to try (almost) any wine. I am familiar with DeLoach and will give their Pinot Noir a try.

My red wine preferences are primarily California Cabs, Australian Shiraz, Italian Chianti, and Spanish Tempranillo. Lately, Tempranillos is what I've been after.

[BC-Axeman]

I had never tasted a Tempranillo until I was in Paso Robles a couple of weekends ago and two of the places I tasted at were offering some up. I ended up with bottles from both of them. Can't remember where now.

[TheRiddick]

I had never tasted a Tempranillo until I was in Paso Robles a couple of weekends ago and two of the places I tasted at were offering some up. I ended up with bottles from both of them. Can't remember where now.

Go to Spanish Table in Berkeley, Kevin has a great selection of Spanish wines (and Portos as well), if you like Paso Robles versons, then I am sure you'll love the real deal, so to speak.

[JohnnyFlake]

Three reasonable Pinot Picks for under $20, that taste like pinot should are:

St. Michael-Eppan Pinot Nero Riserva

Louis Jadot Bourgone Village

Sipp Mack Pinot Noir

I agree, these are very nice, as are many offerings from Santa Barbara Vineyards, Sterling Vineyards, Fess Parker Vineyards, Bogle Vineyards and Santa Rita Vineyards, which all offer at least one or two Pinot Noir bottlings every year that usually sell for $20 or less.

[JohnnyFlake]

Please allow me to re-state that this is the under $20 a bottle wine thread, It's meant to make suggestions for good, very good and occasionally an excellent wine that can be had for $20 a bottle or less.

I fail to understand the bashing of many suggestions made on this thread, accompanied by volumes of rhetoric comparing a simple $20 or less bottle of wine, with world class and far more expensive wines.

To me the topic of this thread is important because there are many, many thousands of us who cannot afford to purchase $30 +, $50 +, $100 + and so on, bottles of wine on a regular basis than there are who can!

[croatan]

Wow, a Kosta Browne reference. How did you get your hands on one?

Same way everyone does, I reckon. I paid for it. It's a fantastic wine. For my money, it's the best Pinot around. But this is an under $20 thread, so that's neither here nor there.

[RichardW]

Please allow me to re-state that this is the under $20 a bottle wine thread, It's meant to make suggestions for good, very good and occasionally an excellent wine that can be had for $20 a bottle or less.
[snip]


Richard Cacciato, chief executive of New York importer Frederick Wildman & Sons, says $40 is the new resistance point, and demand is focused on $10 to $20 wines. Australia is down, while Spain and Argentina are up.
[http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aaCF8_4ghYm8#]

:ss

[TheRiddick]

Please allow me to re-state that this is the under $20 a bottle wine thread, It's meant to make suggestions for good, very good and occasionally an excellent wine that can be had for $20 a bottle or less.

I fail to understand the bashing of many suggestions made on this thread, accompanied by volumes of rhetoric comparing a simple $20 or less bottle of wine, with world class and far more expensive wines.

To me the topic of this thread is important because there are many, many thousands of us who cannot afford to purchase $30 +, $50 +, $100 + and so on, bottles of wine on a regular basis than there are who can!

No one is bashing your recommendations. I should emphasize, YOURS. But when you post someone else's, without ever tasting the wine, I think it is fair game to question them. If you think I am drinking a $100 bottle every night, you are mistaken. Hell, I am down with a flu since the middle of last week and haven't had any wine or cigars since (was tempted tonight, though, still congested and coughing).

Also, what I attempted to do was to show how to read a tasting note and decipher it. Only because something got a 91 score, from who knows who (Sam's employee? Wow, I should run out and buy a pallet!) when the wine description is obviously showing an overripe and overoaked wine from questionable provenance, I don't see why someone should not point it out.

Same as would happen with anyone posting a very positive, 91 score review on Cremosa or another questionable stick, I would expect at least one person to chime in with a contrarian view. No difference.

Nothing personal, as I already pointed out. Simply questioning some recommendations you posted (and others as well). They are not wines made by you, don't take it personally to begin with. I never recommend anything I haven't tried myself and although I may point out a particular winery if a particular style of wine is being discussed, I feel I am playing with someone else's money if I recommend something without having actual experience with it. Not fair to the other person, IMO. That's all and nothing sinister.

[TheRiddick]

For my money, it's the best Pinot around.

Thread jack, but what other Pinots are you drinking? As a reference point.

[BC-Axeman]

Go to Spanish Table in Berkeley, Kevin has a great selection of Spanish wines (and Portos as well), if you like Paso Robles versons, then I am sure you'll love the real deal, so to speak.
When I was in Finland for two weeks on business I sampled a lot of different European wines and though I don't remember any labels I do remember liking the Spanish and Portuguese ones the most. They even offered good California wines. I think I was the only person in Helsinki who smoked cigars, by the looks I got.:ss
Found the link:
http://spanishtable.com/BerkeleyWineList.htm
Lotsa stuff for under $20 there, including some Portos and Madeiras.

[TheRiddick]

Kevin knows each and every wine. Try some whites as well, some are really good. Splurge (less than $30?) on a bottle of Toro Albala Pedro Ximenez and have some next time you light up, let me know what think.

[cherrybomb]

To sum up four pages of disagreements, one should find a reviewer that best suites their style and palate and use them as a frame of referrence. Old bob, for example likes really overextracted glycerin driven wines right now, if that is what you like then listen to his ratings.

Seangar:
You should try oregon chards if you like more acid and fruit driven chards. I had some 91 arglye vineyards and 91 eyrie pinot noirs that drank beautifully this spring. Pretty darn exceptional for oregon fruit. Btw oregon is on the same 45th parallell as burgundy

Chile:
Marques de casa concha cabernet
Spain: Tinto pesquera
Oregon: Anne amie pinot gris or lacchini pinot gris, evolution by sokol blosser

[rizzle]

Please allow me to re-state that this is the under $20 a bottle wine thread, It's meant to make suggestions for good, very good and occasionally an excellent wine that can be had for $20 a bottle or less.

I fail to understand the bashing of many suggestions made on this thread, accompanied by volumes of rhetoric comparing a simple $20 or less bottle of wine, with world class and far more expensive wines.

To me the topic of this thread is important because there are many, many thousands of us who cannot afford to purchase $30 +, $50 +, $100 + and so on, bottles of wine on a regular basis than there are who can!
I agree with you. Pretty easy to see about where this turn of events started, no?

[SeanGAR]

Back on track, a Spanish that I have enjoyed many times in the past that should run $12-14 is

http://winelibrary.com/images/40151.jpg

Castell del Remei Gotim Bru. Mostly tempranillo, with some cabernet sauvignon, merlot and grenache thrown in. Price went up from 10-ish to 12-13-ish locally and I wasn't as impressed with the last available vintage as I had been in the past. Nonetheless, a fine wine for the nickel based on my 'sub 20 palate'.

[cherrybomb]

I agree totally with sen gar +1 for the gotim Bru.
Also Vino Sin Ley G2 and G5 from spain are great buys hitting the 9.99 and 13.99 pricepoints

[mosesbotbol]

Back on track, a Spanish that I have enjoyed many times in the past that should run $12-14 is

http://winelibrary.com/images/40151.jpg

Castell del Remei Gotim Bru.


Good pick. This wine does vary some with the vintage. I had a case of the 2000 that was impressive, but a had (2003 I think) that was just a little better than average.

Spain is good for under $20 wines. The Marques de Caceres Reserva is better if you can find under $20.

[SeanGAR]

Spain is good for under $20 wines. The Marques de Caceres Reserva is better if you can find under $20.

You mentioned that one before, I'll have to look for it tonight.

[JohnnyFlake]

Here is what sounds like an interesting red from Spain. I have not tried this, so this is not a recommendation, it is simply an awareness post. I would like to see more awareness post in this thread! It's not necessary to have tried a wine to post it as a awareness post. It's just letting others know of another possibly good, under $20 a bottle wine, that they may not have seen any advertising on!

2007 Celler El Masroig Sola Fred

The red wines begin with the 2007 Sola Fred, a non-oaked cuvee of 90% Carinena and 10% Garnacha. Dark ruby-colored, it has an excellent nose of violets, black cherry, and earth notes. Supple and forward on the palate, it has serious depth of flavor, excellent balance, and a long, fruity finish. This hedonistic effort is a great value for drinking over the next 2-3 years. There are up to 8000 cases available for the USA market."

90 points, Jay Miller
from Robert Parker, Jr.'s, Wine Advocate

$8.99 per 750ml bottle!

[HK3-]

For cheap wine I like this- http://www.salutewinemarket.com/store/product/659/Folie-a-Deux--Menage-a-Trois-Red-2007/

It can be found at most grocery stores.

[WildBlueSooner]

To me the topic of this thread is important because there are many, many thousands of us who cannot afford to purchase $30 +, $50 +, $100 + and so on, bottles of wine on a regular basis than there are who can![/QUOTE]

:tpd: Although I do occasionally splurge ;)

[BC-Axeman]

I have never bought a bottle of wine for more than $55. That was for a limited release Pinot which was very good. I think a lot of wine is targeted at the 15 to 25 dollar range and there are so many good ones.
I like most of the wines I have tasted from Trinitas winery in Napa and they are mostly under $20. One of the few club shipments I get.

[mosesbotbol]

Check out the bin ends for the best values in the $20 range.

[JohnnyFlake]

Check out the bin ends for the best values in the $20 range.

Could you explain in more detail what is meant by "Bin ends"? For some reason it's not clicking with me.

Thanks

[TheRiddick]

Gott, both Zin and Cab. Zin should be $12 or so, Cab a few dollars more. Old timers in the wine game, although still not well known. Well made wines.

Franciscan Cab. Can be found for $20. A touch on the oaky side for my palate, but should be really fine for most.

Dancing Bull Zin, should be $12 or so. Great wine all around, maybe better than Gott Zin above, although I like smaller wineries and would still pick Gott for that reason alone.

La Crema Sonoma Coast Pinot, I see it for $20 all over the place in CA, by far the best Pinot in this price range and the only one I would spend my own money on. Drinks better than many Pinots at (up to) double the price.

Save for Dancing Bull Zin, I have no idea if these wines are available in other states, although Franciscan should be. Price wise, I've seen some wines sell at better prices in other states, FL and NJ, than they are here.

[TheRiddick]

Could you explain in more detail what is meant by "Bin ends"? For some reason it's not clicking with me.

Usually a bottle or two here and there, when a shop is down to almost no wine (out of a case or more they had), they clear up shelf space to place another wine there and what's left of the wine that used to be there is placed in a "end bin" area, usually with a marked down price to make it move. "End bin" is named for an "end" of a particular wine on the shelf.

I would only make sure that storage was not an issue, I've seen some shops place poorly stored wine in end bins.

[mosesbotbol]

Could you explain in more detail what is meant by "Bin ends"? For some reason it's not clicking with me.

Thanks

Wines like Riddick mentioned. It's best to go to a good wine store as they have better wine to start off with more likely better storage. Wines with stained labels, end of cases, close out's... There's several reasons wine can end up on the clearence rack.

The stores I frequent, the bin is the first place I look. :wo

I return "bad" bottles all the time.

[JohnnyFlake]

Thanks guys, I understand about the "end bin" now. The only real liquor stores to go to in my area, are the Lee's Liquor Outlets, there are 10 of them in the Las Vegas Valley. Two of the biggest ones are in my area. They have all their close outs spread out over several tables in an area near the check out registers. I've look through them several times and I have picked up a few interesting wines at very reasonable prices a few times.

[TheRiddick]

The stores I frequent, the bin is the first place I look.

Martignetti's? Marty's and Blanchard's were also the places I looked, in fact I found a whole bunch of older Baumards (QdC) at crazy low prices on one occasion at Marty's.

[mosesbotbol]

Martignetti's? Marty's and Blanchard's were also the places I looked, in fact I found a whole bunch of older Baumards (QdC) at crazy low prices on one occasion at Marty's.

The Holy Trinity... Go to all three regularly. Brookline Liquor Mart as well.

[TheRiddick]

BLM went downhill I thought? Their storage conditions were sub-par, but they did bring in a lot of great wine.

Very few shops on this coast have end bins, sadly.

[BC-Axeman]

I was in a store that had a huge wine selection and instead of end bins they tagged the end lots with 50% off tags. The clerk explained it to me the same as TheRiddick's end bin explanation above. It was in SoCal and I can't even remember the store but I remember to look for these deals. Mostly I do my buying at wineries after tasting. I look for below 25$ and if below $20 I may buy a case. I experiment with wines at Costco too. Sometimes they get some good deals on good wine and sometimes they are selling undrinkable crap. They have a "Kirkland" brand wine I haven't tried and while I was in Napa I saw a Kirkland vineyard. Soon everything will be Kirkland! Bwahahahaha!

[TheRiddick]

Costco Kirkland and (Napa) Kirkland are two separate companies and have nothing in common. Costco simply has a trade name and then contracts other wineries to make products for them, I see Kirkland Vodka now as well, IIRC its made in France.

In SoCal, you must have been to one of the big boys, either Hi Time, Wine House or some such, they do have great selections. Next time make a stop at 20/20 Wines, near here 405 and 10 cross, best wine shop I have ever seen, its a wine museum.

[BC-Axeman]

Costco Kirkland and (Napa) Kirkland are two separate companies and have nothing in common.
I thought that might be the case but I hadn't researched it.

[TheRiddick]

Kirkland in Napa has been in insolvency for some time now and even a recent auction did not bring any buyers. Make them an offer, they may listen :-))

[mosesbotbol]

BLM went downhill I thought? Their storage conditions were sub-par, but they did bring in a lot of great wine.

Very few shops on this coast have end bins, sadly.

I can't say that is the case in my recent memory. The sell storage, and I know their higher end stuff is in walk-in's. They were the importer for Guigal for a while. BLM's regular prices are just... regular. The do offer 20% off on most stuff. Lower Falls Wine in on the Newton Wellesley has a good boutique offering of wine. Hard to find a bad wine in the store, but the selection of standards is not as huge.

[mosesbotbol]

I experiment with wines at Costco too. Sometimes they get some good deals on good wine and sometimes they are selling undrinkable crap. They have a "Kirkland" brand wine I haven't tried and while.

I buy a lot of wine at Costco, and they actually have a well thought out selection of wines. Personally, I would prefer more French wines in the line up, but that is me... I have bought plenty of cases from them. The have an Italian Super Tuscan called Giordano (I think) that comes in OWC for like $12 a bottle that is fantastic.

Kirkland's Champagne, CdP are both great offerings. Missed out on their Margaux :(

[TheRiddick]

Costco is opening a Wine and Liquor only store in Yonkers, NY.

[WildBlueSooner]

I find World Market to have a good and changing selection of affordable wines. I love that store.

[BC-Axeman]

I have gotten a Chilean wine from Costco that tasted like it had dirt in it and an Argentinean wine that tasted like watered down old wine and a French wine that reminded me of what wine would taste like if it went flat, like beer. These were all real cheap, like $8-$14, so I just drank them up and never bought them again. But I don't know why Costco put these on the rack. Maybe these are tastes that appeal to some.

[TheRiddick]

Lance,

Problem with Costco is that most of the wines they carry are selected and pushed onto the stores by the corporate buyers, local wine managers have little room to sneak in what they like (although some do). Costco is one of the largest, if not the largest, buyers of wine in USA and do a good job with some high end wine (price wise), but I also rarely buy anything in their low end selections save for white wine to cook with. I'd rather buy their white selections on the low end than reds, most reds lack in body and flavor. Just my opinion, YMMV.

Chilean wines were a decent deal 15-18 years ago when they slowly trickled into USA. As volumes increased, same thing as with Australian "animal" labels happened, quality went down to keep the prices low and inferior fruit was used to make the juice. Some Chile wines are now almost $100 per bottle, have no idea who pays that much for a generic wine, at this price you can have pretty much anything from CA and Europe with few exceptions, and from proven vineyards to boot. I am wiling to bet that in a blindsetup a bottle of 2BC will easily taste better than most Chilean wines up to $10-12 per bottle.

If anything, I'd go for a Argentina wines these days, it is difficult to screw up Malbec. Plus, to me it is a bit more adventurous than a generic Cab at the same price, more complexity, body and spice. And most likely less oak.

[JohnnyFlake]

Here is another awareness post, however, this one comes to me with a recommendation from a friend back in Illinois.

2004 Spruce Goose "Willamette" Pinot Noir

"A scintillating, almost translucent red to the eye. Ripe and rich on the nose, with urgent notes of wild red cherries and cinnamon--all framed by a bouquet of red roses. Is this really a New World Pinot? My Lord, possess the texture that I find only in a 1er cru Burgundy!

92 points, Jason Palma
Wine Consultant, Sam's Wines and Spirits

$19.99 per 750ml bottle!

[leasingthisspace]

My wife is a Pinot Noir fan. She told me "the Little Penguin" Pinot Noir 2008 was awesome. It was under 20 closer to 10 but she loved it.

[Fumes]

Back on track, a Spanish that I have enjoyed many times in the past that should run $12-14 is

http://winelibrary.com/images/40151.jpg

Castell del Remei Gotim Bru.

My wife and I shared a bottle this weekend. Very nice. Thanks for the tip! :chr

[JohnnyFlake]

This one is amazing, right now! I bought a couple of bottles of Layer Cake 2008 Shiraz from Barossa Valley, Australia at Trader Joe's for $14.95 this past Saturday. Last night my wife and I drank a bottle. I have had this in the past several times, 2006 and I believe 2005. It was always very good to excellent. I decanted the bottle and let it rest for about 45 minutes. All I can say is that this is an amazing wine right now. The flavor is full bodied with lot's of up front fruit dark berry nuances, with an underlying spiciness that is just wonderful. The finish is fairly long with hints of dark chocolate & spice.

I highly recommend this wine. I plan to pick up at least a half dozen bottles of this. I'm no expert but I believe that this wine will hold up very well and may even improve over the next 3 to 5 years.

[pnoon]

This one is amazing, right now! I bought a couple of bottles of Layer Cake 2008 Shiraz from Barossa Valley, Australia at Trader Joe's for $14.95 this past Saturday. Last night my wife and I drank a bottle. I have had this in the past several times, 2006 and I believe 2005. It was always very good to excellent. I decanted the bottle and let it rest for about 45 minutes. All I can say is that this is an amazing wine right now. The flavor is full bodied with lot's of up front fruit dark berry nuances, with an underlying spiciness that is just wonderful. The finish is fairly long with hints of dark chocolate & spice.

I highly recommend this wine. I plan to pick up at least a half dozen bottles of this. I'm no expert but I believe that this wine will hold up very well and may even improve over the next 3 to 5 years.

Layer Cake is quite good. :dr
And a good value, too.

Another Australian Shiraz that is affordable and quite tasty is called Boarding Pass. It is priced in the $15-$20 range. Check it out.

[mosesbotbol]

Layer Cake is quite good. :dr
And a good value, too.

Another Australian Shiraz that is affordable and quite tasty is called Boarding Pass. It is priced in the $15-$20 range. Check it out.

The best Austrailian Shiraz I have tried under $20 is Torbreck Woodcutter's Shiraz.

[SeanGAR]

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/okeefes/bricco_1.jpg

Barbera del Monderrato Superiore, $16.49 in my local Kroger, this wine is 85% Barbera, 15% Freisa.

I like Italian reds these days in the value category and this definitely hits the spot, different enough from Chianti to make it interesting.

[mosesbotbol]

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/okeefes/bricco_1.jpg

Barbera del Monderrato Superiore, $16.49 in my local Kroger, this wine is 85% Barbera, 15% Freisa.

I like Italian reds these days in the value category and this definitely hits the spot, different enough from Chianti to make it interesting.


Sounds like a good buy. What year is on the shelf?

[SeanGAR]

Sounds like a good buy. What year is on the shelf?

06

[Trace63]

My girlfriend had some Foxhorn White Zin a little while ago that was pretty good. And its cheap as can be too.

[DoctaJ]

One wine I jump on when I see if on special for under $20 is Santa Margherita Pinot Grigio:

http://tophatwines.com/Eric/wines/santa%20margherita.jpg


Very smooth wine with great flavors. It's defintily one of the best I have tasted in terms of Pinot Grigio :tu

[DoctaJ]

Btw, does anyone have any specific Sauvignon blanc's they would recommend that fit under this category (under $20)? Always on the lookout for some new ones to try :)

[Trace63]

One wine I jump on when I see if on special for under $20 is Santa Margherita Pinot Grigio:

http://tophatwines.com/Eric/wines/santa%20margherita.jpg


Very smooth wine with great flavors. It's defintily one of the best I have tasted in terms of Pinot Grigio :tu

One of my best friends LOVES this wine. I really need to try it.

[mosesbotbol]

One wine I jump on when I see if on special for under $20 is Santa Margherita Pinot Grigio:

http://tophatwines.com/Eric/wines/santa%20margherita.jpg


Very smooth wine with great flavors. It's defintily one of the best I have tasted in terms of Pinot Grigio :tu

Should this always be under $20? I can't imagine a Pinot Grigio over $20

[kaisersozei]

About a month or so ago, my wife discovered this:

http://www.klwines.com/images/skus/1039931l.jpg

Vacqueyras Domaine Mas du Bouquet

The 2006 vintage scored a 90 in Wine Spectator last year. She loves it, and at $15/bottle, I love it, too! ;)

[Sauer Grapes]

I'm more of a noob with wine than I ever was with cigars. For a white though, Nobilo Sauvignion Blanc is quite tasty. It's from the Marlborough region of New Zealand.

I can't suggest any reds because most of the ones I drink are too cheap even for this thread, and I highly doubt they are good. I will definitely be using this thread as a reference for stuff to try though.

Btw, does anyone have any specific Sauvignon blanc's they would recommend that fit under this category (under $20)? Always on the lookout for some new ones to try :)

[BC-Axeman]

I'm more of a noob with wine than I ever was with cigars. For a white though, Nobilo Sauvignion Blanc is quite tasty. It's from the Marlborough region of New Zealand.

I can't suggest any reds because most of the ones I drink are too cheap even for this thread, and I highly doubt they are good. I will definitely be using this thread as a reference for stuff to try though.
I love to find under $10 wines that are good tasting with no bad qualities. I used to get Blackstone Merlot often at Costco.

[Dunkel]

Been a number of years since I've drank any wine but i used to love Louis Jadot Beaujolais-Villages for a red, and Adolf Mueller Liebfraumilch for a white.

[JohnnyFlake]

Here is a new one that family friends tell me is an amazing wine for the price!

Albino Armani Casetta 2005

Sam's Score: 91-93 Points: The aromas found in this wine are a complete turn on: black plums, acai berry, maduro tobacco, bergamot oil and exotic spices. On the palate, the wine coats the mouth with layers of fruit, fragrant earth and spice elements. It tastes like a hypothetical blend of Amarone, Pinot Noir and Mourvedre. A fascinating and delicious wine.

~ Efrain Madrigal, Sam's Wine Director

Sam's First Look Price: $15.99!

[TheRiddick]

I love to find under $10 wines that are good tasting with no bad qualities. I used to get Blackstone Merlot often at Costco.

Lance, this past weekend I bought a few bottles of Meridian Pinot Noirm on sale at Safeway for $5.99 each and the wine was not bad at all. Merlot, same price, had way too much oak for me, though.

[TheRiddick]

Here is a new one that family friends tell me is an amazing wine for the price!

Albino Armani Casetta 2005

Sam's Score: 91-93 Points: The aromas found in this wine are a complete turn on: black plums, acai berry, maduro tobacco, bergamot oil and exotic spices. On the palate, the wine coats the mouth with layers of fruit, fragrant earth and spice elements. It tastes like a hypothetical blend of Amarone, Pinot Noir and Mourvedre. A fascinating and delicious wine.

~ Efrain Madrigal, Sam's Wine Director

Sam's First Look Price: $15.99!

And a popular translation for the rest of us:

Black plums - way overripe fruit
Maduro Tobacco - plenty of oak tannins (most likely chips at the price point)
Mourvedre - brett (the only grape that gets confused with brett and since there isn't any in this wine, brett is the only explanation)

[JohnnyFlake]

And a popular translation for the rest of us:

Black plums - way overripe fruit
Maduro Tobacco - plenty of oak tannins (most likely chips at the price point)
Mourvedre - brett (the only grape that gets confused with brett and since there isn't any in this wine, brett is the only explanation)

And still another RIP by Mr Riddick!!!

[JohnnyFlake]

Here is still another find/recommendation:

Bodegas Sabor Real Vinas Centenarias 2005: $13.99
Bodegas Sabor Real Viñas Centenarias
Toro Spain Crianza 2005

Here is Robert Parker's Wine Advocate’s take on the wine:

"The 2005 Vinas Centenarias, as the name implies, comes from vines over 100 years of age. Purple-colored, it offers up a complex perfume of pain grillé, violets, mineral, spice box, black cherry and blackberry. Bigger, richer, and more sweetly-fruited than its younger colleague, it would benefit from 2-3 years of additional cellaring. Balanced, lengthy, and altogether hedonistic, it should drink well through 2015. It is a stupendous value.”
~ 91 Points, Wine Advocate

What will TheRiddick have to say about this one?

[sboyajian]

One of my favorite wines is also one of cheapest..

Tall Horse Cabernet Sauvignon - South Africa .. $6.95

I haven't had anything else from Tall Horse, not a big white fan, and Merlots tend to give me a headache. So I mostly stick with the Cabs.

http://www.tallhorsewines.com//Upload/winebottle1.jpg
Tasting Notes for the 2008 (http://www.tallhorsewines.com//Upload/TH_CABERNET_SAUVIGNON_2008_tn.pdf)

[TheRiddick]

Johnny, I really hope that the scores Sam's and Parker give out are based on a 110 point scale. If these wines are rated 91 points, then I sure can taste you and Parker on wines that easily rate MUCH higher, by any palate's preferences.

Quit buying points and buy what YOUR palate likes.

Just to show you how much I "rate" Parker's palate. He and I had a few public exchanges where I exposed his obvious lack of understanding simple wine making principles and techniques. All this while he pretended he didn't "recognize" my name (I posted under a real name) and while he didin't realize that just a month prior one of my distributors tasted Parker on my new releases when as soon as the distributor mentioned my name Parker immediately recognized it, the distributor told me that. As soon as I got into an argument with Parker, other winemakers were making bets to see what kind of scores he will release for my wines. Well, he did rate a number of them in the 90-91 range, but then rated my best wine, almost legendary by now in the Pinot Noir community (winemakers and consumers both), a lowly 87 points with a note that said the wine is already on the downslope and won't last past 2 years, basically getting back at me. The wine is now 4 years old and not even close to hitting on all cylinders.

One of my Syrahs was just rated at 91 points, second year in the row for this wine. Vineyard owner (I buy fruit) does a taste test comparison every year to see how wineries do with his grapes and every year, hands down, my wine is voted the best of the bunch by all the wineries. This year, while mine received 91 points, another Syrah from these same grapes, received a 94 point score from same reviewer. The difference? I am not a "famous" name like the one who made the other wine (he makes upper 90s rated Cabs in Napa).

To make it short, points have meaning to only one person, the one who assigns them. And they are assigned for various reasons. Sam's got a good deal on a wine, meaning they commited to XXX number of cases in order to get a much better price and yes, their marketing guy HAS to give it a high rating to move the wine. They, and others as well, don't do this often in order to keep up their "reputations", but I've seen plenty of swill hyped up and sold by the case to consumers who then proudly put a bottle on a table and proclaim, "This is XX points!" But ask them to describe the wine to you, without a cheat sheet, and they are lost with the only thing they do remember being the point score.

In addition, many wineries "dial in" the flavor profile most wine reviewers like (plenty of oak, some sugar and if you want big Parker points then dial in lots of brett) and receive higher scores. Are they good wines? Maybe, but in most cases I would not and could not have more than a sip while I will happily consume 2-3 bottles worth of something that has balance of all components.

I am an industry insider, thus my take on reviews is very different than that of consumers'. Same for tasting a wine, where I immediately pick out all sorts of faults, only a few consumers I have met so far are able to keep up and only because they drink with us for some time and help out at wineries. Otherwise, I can name famous wine critics, people who pretty much any wine consumer knows name wise, who I tasted with and all I can say is that they don't know much about wine, in general.

Buy that Meridian Pinot Noir I posted on above, let me know what you think. It can be had on sale here in CA, I am sure you can find it in NV. Buy any Bogle product, they are all affordable and tasty. Sebastiani. From France buy some (Kermit Lynch imported) Cote du Rhone blends, they are usually cheap and tasty (mostly Grenache and Syrah blends). Buy German Rieslings and Loire whites (Vouvrays), they are all affordable and VERY tasty, but yes, they all lack high scores. Scores do not have a "taste" they are just an arbitrary number.

And best advice I could give in this thread? Avoid any and all "animals" labels like the one above. Not only are they mostly "chemical experiments" produced mostly in a lab, but they destroyed an industry in the past few years. You don't smoke crappy cigars, why drink crappy wines?

[cherrybomb]

perrin and fils reserve 2007

[SeanGAR]

perrin and fils reserve 2007

Cotes du Rhone?

[SeanGAR]

I had the 07 Meridian pinot noir recently (wine is from Italy) and was underwhelmed. I suppose it comes from drinking lots of 82 and 85 Cote du Nuits when I lived in Dijon in 1988, but I haven't had a Pinot Noir this side of the pond that I really enjoyed (and now Italian as well). I will admit that I haven't gone Costa Browne or anything crazy, but I'm not going to spend 50+ bucks just to get a pinot I like. I admit that the reasonably prices pinots from Bourgogne are damned hard to find as well. I used to get the Napa Ridge pinot for 3-3.50 15 years ago at Osco in Illinois (wasn't available in FL) ... that had decent if light pinot character and was a nice deal. In Dijon, I bought a lot of Bourgogne from a small place in Nuits St Georges that was excellent, supposedly just across the fence from higher NSG classification. It was 4.50-5 bucks in 1998 if I remember right.

Since I can get a nice Chianti from one of the superiore areas for 10-14 bucks, I stick with those normally. A nice one I had recently for under 11 bucks. Firm tannins but not dusty/drying, good concentration, nice sang/fruit character, goes well with food. Had the 2007.

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/okeefes/B_AGIM3.jpg

[easyt]

Great thread, thanks.

I like complexity & spiciness in wine and am a big fan of zinfandel. My favorite is Rancho Zabaco's 2004 zin. It's $17.

Their more recent stuff hasn't been as good, however.

http://www.ranchozabaco.com/images/ourwines/images/RanchoMainImage.jpg

[BC-Axeman]

C'mon, Greg, you can't put ALL animal labels under one umbrella.

I like wines that get described as having "cherry" and "chocolate" notes and a long finish. "Firm tannins" is a turn off to me. What does this suggest?

[SeanGAR]

"Firm tannins" is a turn off to me. What does this suggest?

Ohh ohh .. let me guess ......

you buy Boone's Farm by the case?

JK ... everybody has different taste in wine.

[BC-Axeman]

Ohh ohh .. let me guess ......

you buy Boone's Farm by the case?

JK ... everybody has different taste in wine.
LOL!
I like just enough tannin to know it's there and have it get subdued with age. "Fruit forward" is a way it's sometimes described.

[TheRiddick]

Sean, the Meridian Pinot I am talking about is from CA grapes. Granted, nothing in the Burgundy mold, but for the sake of this thread, a very nicely done wine and at a great price. FWIW, I have yet to come across a sub-$150 red Burg that I like and would actually pay money for, most lack flavor. At the $35-50 price point there is plenty to pick from in CA.

Those Rancho Zabaco Zins are VERY good and sell at good price points.
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Lance,

Name one, just one, "animal" label that is drinkable. I have yet to find one. I'll gladly take a bottle of 2BC over any of them, at least 2BC is real fruit based and clean without any chemical additives.

"Fruit forward" can also mean "structured", its all about balance and if tannin management is done right during wine making you won't notice tannin much while consuming wine. Your take on tannins is similar to mine.
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Taste in wine, as in anything else, IS subjective. I came across a good number of wine drinkers who will loudly proclaim they hate over-oaked wine and then go for the oakiest wine on the table, so taste and perception are also very divergent.

I'd rather drink beer than bad wine, and do so in real life more than I want to admit. As with cigars, I buy quality over quantity and if that means I have only 100+ cigars in the humidor rather than 400, so be it. Life is short to smoke and drink sub-par products, IMO.

[sboyajian]

And best advice I could give in this thread? Avoid any and all "animals" labels like the one above. Not only are they mostly "chemical experiments" produced mostly in a lab, but they destroyed an industry in the past few years. You don't smoke crappy cigars, why drink crappy wines?
Different Strokes for Different folks. What you consider crappy others consider very good.

Call that "animal" label what you want.. Destroyed an industry? To destroy an industry, the industry would have to be no more. The fact that we're having this conversation shows it hasn't destroyed anything.

Most wines (like most beers, like most scotches, like most everything) are grown in the field, then made in a factory and then run through a lab.

For what it's worth.. keep in mind.. just because a label has an animal doesn't make it as you call it an "Animal" label.. Should I not be surprised to see an African wine with a Giraffe on it using typical African art?

The history of the wine and the winemaker (http://www.tallhorsewines.com/index.php?mod=submain&SubPage_ID=2)

[mosesbotbol]

Name one, just one, "animal" label that is drinkable. I have yet to find one. I'll gladly take a bottle of 2BC over any of them, at least 2BC is real fruit based and clean without any chemical additives.

You're saying you'd drink 2BC over 2000 Mouton? I would've never thought!

[TheRiddick]

Most wines (like most beers, like most scotches, like most everything) are grown in the field, then made in a factory and then run through a lab.

I am not sure I understand "... then run through lab" point you made. I know of no one who runs their wines "through lab", I am talking fine wines of course and save for verifying alcohol, acidity and dryness numbers there is no "lab work" involved.

Get some info before making a statement. Talk to Australians themselves, while they were happy with grabbing a big chunk of the USA market when the likes of "Yellow Tail" appeared (and were imitated by everyone else making same, chemical driven plonk that may not even be grapes in some cases), they are now crying because not only did these "chemical experiments" kill the market for locals (USA producers), but also greatly reduced the market for the middle and high end Oz producers as well. So far, Oz imports are down and going down as we speak, people can be fooled some of the time, but not always and consumers are finally waking up.

Fine Syrah market is dead in USA because of the "animal" labels, do some research to see why.

Do you buy and smoke Cremosas? Just curuious.
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Moses, that ram on Mouton is an art form and a one time deal, you know that :-) But yes, I'll take 2BC over ANY "animal label" save that ram on Mouton :-)

[SeanGAR]

Most of the upscale Aussie syrahs I have had in the last 5-7 years were over ripe, jammy, high alcohol, and unpleasant. Big fruit perhaps, but out of balance and undrinkable after a half a glass. Made to show "big" in a comparison tasting, not to be a nice wine with a meal.

What chemicals are you referring to when you say 'chemical driven plonk'. Sulfur is a chemical. Flavor compounds extracted from oak barrels are chemicals. Wine is nothing but a bunch of chemicals in a glass that can taste good or not, depending more on a person's personal preference than anything. I dislike the super ripe walla walla/HHH wines, but some people really like them. Who is right?

[sboyajian]

I am not sure I understand "... then run through lab" point you made. I know of no one who runs their wines "through lab", I am talking fine wines of course and save for verifying alcohol, acidity and dryness numbers there is no "lab work" involved.

Get some info before making a statement. Talk to Australians themselves, while they were happy with grabbing a big chunk of the USA market when the likes of "Yellow Tail" appeared (and were imitated by everyone else making same, chemical driven plonk that may not even be grapes in some cases), they are now crying because not only did these "chemical experiments" kill the market for locals (USA producers), but also greatly reduced the market for the middle and high end Oz producers as well. So far, Oz imports are down and going down as we speak, people can be fooled some of the time, but not always and consumers are finally waking up.

Fine Syrah market is dead in USA because of the "animal" labels, do some research to see why.

Do you buy and smoke Cremosas? Just curuious.
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Moses, that ram on Mouton is an art form and a one time deal, you know that :-) But yes, I'll take 2BC over ANY "animal label" save that ram on Mouton :-)

That is actually exactly what I was referring to.. hopefully you don't think that I felt all winemakers bring the wine in, and if it's not "up to snuff" they start adding extra chemicals and ingredients to change it somehow.

I have drank Yellow Tail, many people buy it because of it's "budget" cost.. I don't know that I have ever finished a glass outside of just being "courteous" and certainly have never gone back for a 2nd glass.

Tall Horse, at least to me, does not have that same affect. I wouldn't classify a wine bad or gimmicky simply because it has an Animal on the label.

Should I steer away from Grey Goose Vodka? Should I stay away from Glenfiddich because it has an animal on it's label? With all due respect, while the the argument could be made that some wines like Yellowtail are pushing better wines out of the market because sales swing to the cheaper brand, calling all "Animal" brands bad, is just in poor taste. Can't make an assessment without actually trying the brand.

As you said yourself.. "Get some info before making a statement" ... unless you have tried all of those brands, and know exactly the process each one goes from vineyard to shelf, you can't make that kind of blanket statement.

As for Cremosas.. never had one. I typically smoke Padron's (yes, even the Londres and x000 series), Fuente (even a curly head from time to time), Tatuaje, and Pepin. That being said, I'd welcome the opportunity to try a Cremosa before I chalked it up to a crap cigar not worth my time.

[BC-Axeman]

Cremosas would be good cigars if not for the fishy taste and smell they leave hanging in the room.
If a cheap wine is not very flavorful, yet not astringent, vinegary or otherwise offensive, I don't care what is on the label. There are only so many brand names you can come up with.

[sboyajian]

Cremosas would be good cigars if not for the fishy taste and smell they leave hanging in the room.
If a cheap wine is not very flavorful, yet not astringent, vinegary or otherwise offensive, I don't care what is on the label. There are only so many brand names you can come up with.

Now if that's not a glowing review, I don't know what is... :r:r:r

[mosesbotbol]

If the wine label is not a picture of the Chateau or vineyard, it's a gimmick. Wine should reflect the land and chateau in both wine and label. There must be pride and history. Cartoon characters; no way.

[sboyajian]

I guess I just can't see past the "the label defines the wine" logic.. ah well...

[SeanGAR]

Back on focus .... a beaujolais villages that I like for just over 10 bucks is....

http://www.kysela.com/burgundy/Carra_villages.jpg

http://www.kysela.com/burgundy/carra.htm

2007 Manoir du Carra, Beaujolais-Villages, Unfiltered
This 100% Gamay wine is produced from a selection of old vines (70 to 100 years old).

Aged in large oak barrels (foudres) for 3-4 months. No filtration. Egg white fining.

Beautiful purple-rimmed, dark cherry juice color. Explosive nose of intense Gamay fruit, a rich flavorful taste and a clean finish.

Did a side by side this 2007 Villages with George Duboeuf BV and there was no comparison. The Carra had nice very clean Gamay fruit, a lighter style (even for Beaujolais, think Fleurie not Morgon) but nice picnic wine, the Duboeuf showed what happens when you go for quantity over quality. No tannins to speak of, dry enough so it isn't spoiled. Me likey.

Didn't buy a case yet but it is certainly on my list. I see it listed online at 14.99 .... I paid something like 10.35 in Kroger, I wouldn't pay 15 bucks.

[TheRiddick]

Should I steer away from Grey Goose Vodka? Should I stay away from Glenfiddich because it has an animal on it's label? With all due respect, while the the argument could be made that some wines like Yellowtail are pushing better wines out of the market because sales swing to the cheaper brand, calling all "Animal" brands bad, is just in poor taste. Can't make an assessment without actually trying the brand.

As you said yourself.. "Get some info before making a statement" ... unless you have tried all of those brands, and know exactly the process each one goes from vineyard to shelf, you can't make that kind of blanket statement.



We were talking WINE, right? What are Grey Goose and Glenfiddich?

Cheaper and "bad" are two different things, very much so in this discussion, IMO. Cheaper are the wines I listed above, there is whole bunch. "Bad" are wines I won't buy or even drink if offered for free, I only have one liver and no spares. And yes, being an industry insider, I do try a fair amount of wines, thus I only discuss wines I KNOW personally and well, I know a seriously good number of them whether I like them or not.

On the third point, the info is available, I do read up a fair amount on a daily basis, its MY JOB. I make wine for a living. And when I say these "animal labels" are chemical experiments, they are, just stock up on wine industry periodicals and light up a few cigars while you read up.

I am not here to tell people what to drink, I am simply pointing out that there are affordable wines worth seeking out and drinking. Same way you and I avoid certain cigars and brands, wines are also to be either followed or ignored.

And as I said already, it is strange that people don't bat an eye at spending a nice chunk on good cigars, or Scotch/Cognac/etc, yet "save" by buying inferior wines when much better wines are available at roughly same prices.

Anyway, I see we're talking apples and oranges, if "animal labels" suite your palate, in general terms, no issue here, your liver and your wallet.m I'll go pop a beer now...

Bogle, Sebastiani, J. Lohr, Meridian, Vouvray, German Reisling, CdR, Chilean and Argentine, all can be had in the $5-15 range.

[TheRiddick]

Most of the upscale Aussie syrahs I have had in the last 5-7 years were over ripe, jammy, high alcohol, and unpleasant. Big fruit perhaps, but out of balance and undrinkable after a half a glass. Made to show "big" in a comparison tasting, not to be a nice wine with a meal.

What did you drink?

Did you have Mt. Langhi Ghiran? d'Arenberg, Parker Station, Torbreck, 3 Rivers, Run Rig, E&E, Cimicky? And what were your impressions?

With Oz Shiraz, you need to pick and choose carefully. That same Mt. Langhi Ghiran needs at least 5-7 years to get going and is a very balanced wine once there. 1995-1997 d'Arenberg Dead Arm are legendary and pretty much killed any and all competition in all blind tastings I have done (WITH FOOD). Cimicky are still undervalued as they were 10-12 years ago (as is Mt. Langhi, IMO).

If you really want to try some small Oz labels there is a shop in SF I can hook you up with, the buyer there knows Oz and NZ wines like no one else in USA and has an incredible selection in the back room. That was my learning grounds years ago :-) Before I worked in wine retail and sold a number of these myself.

In general terms, I won't touch any Oz Shiraz these days that sells under $25 a bottle, sounds elitist, but that's reality if you want anything drinkable.

[BC-Axeman]

I'm drinking a glass of Meridian Pinot Noir right now. It was at Nob Hill for only $5.55.
It is an Italian wine imported through Napa, CA. It tastes like it was made in an Italian style. It is lighter bodied than most of the pinots I'm used to but reminds me of other Italian wines I've had. A winemaker once told my that pinot is a light bodied grape anyway. This Meridian wine has no bad characteristics to me. I think it would be better slightly chilled, even, because it is refreshing already. For $5.55 it is a great deal. It would be better if it had a more concentrated fruit flavor, but I have plenty of wines like that, none that cost less than $15, much less $5.55!

[canucks6024]

Ya it's a Rhone wine

had it recently, actually was disapointted. good upfront fruit, but hollow mid-palete and the finish disappeared quickly

Cotes du Rhone?

[Sauer Grapes]

Magnificent Vineyards makes some pretty good affordable wines. Their house wine in delicious and their "steak house" wine (cab sauv) is good as well. Not only are they good, but they don't give me a headache like other cheap wines. (I say that because although my taste buds will accept most cheap wines, they always give me a headache the next day with only one glass).

They are out of washington.

[The Poet]

I just put four varietals of Xploradors on the shelf @ $9.99/bottle - Chardonnay, Carmenere, Cabernet Sauvignon, and "I will NOT drink any %^($in' " Merlot, all 2008 vintage. These Chilean Concha Y Toros should be quite a good buy, but I haven't had this vintage yet. Anybody here who can give me some input?

:ss

[Fumes]

Somebody earlier already mentioned this but I have decided to start buying this by the case. At ~$9 a bottle before the case discount I just don't see how you can go wrong. I'm really enjoying drinking this.

http://www.winepros.org/images/ps-bogle.jpg

I went to the wine shop with a list of wines from this thread. I found this one, and the Meridian Pinot (CA). (Also found the Steltzner Claret but it was $25, a little out of my price range.) We drank the Bogle Petite Sirah (07) last weekend and it was splendid. On sale for 8.99, no less. Fantastic recommendation!! :tu

[Fumes]

Dirty tricks afoot in the cheap wine trade: The Great Wine Cover-Up (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-08-18/the-great-wine-cover-up/?cid=topic:mainpromo1).

[BC-Axeman]

Dirty tricks afoot in the cheap wine trade: The Great Wine Cover-Up (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-08-18/the-great-wine-cover-up/?cid=topic:mainpromo1).
As the article mentioned, it's not just the cheap wines. Not all the tricks are dirty.
These kinds of articles get published from time to time but I treat it like sausage making. Sometimes you don't need to know exactly how it was made. ;)
There have been similar articles and posts about the tricks cigar makers use, ie. maduro dyes.

[TheRiddick]

Nice article, although somewhat misguided as most wine reporters and critics seem to be. He should have done more research. For example, adding tannins is done to retard any bacteria that may have arrived to the winery on grape skins. Small doses of powdered tannin, all natural, of course, but (hopefully) enough to kill any spoilage and used as a precaution in 99% of the cases.

Adding oak chips to wine is not a substitute to aging wine in barrels (contrary to the implication in the article). Chips simply add oak flavor, as article says, but aging in oak barrels leads to micro oxygenation, which is wine AGING (similar to you and me aging wine in our homes for years after the purchase). And as is, chips and staves are simply a by-product of barrel making, anyway. Why throw away perfectly good planks when making barrels?

Chaptalization is legal in France, but illegal in California, the article makes it sound like it is. Besides, with all the "complaints" from experts that CA and Oz wines are too "big" to begin with, why add even more sugar?

Overall, a good look at how the likes of [yellowtail] achieve their target, flavor profile wise, they actually have huge chemical laboratories to gauge consumer wine preferences (sugar laden and oaky wines) and then use chemical additions to get there. Some additions are natural (oak chips, MegaPurple, sugar), some are not.

But in general, you simply cannot take a wine amde from 15 tons per acre crop and turn it into something that was made from a 3 tons (of less) per acre yield. The biggest issue, though, is that all of the wine writers and critics complain about these "additives" and tricks and yet, time and again, I have watchd them give these chemical experiments high scores in tastings, blind or not. On the one hand, they tell consumers about the "evils" of such wine making tricks, on the other they themselves do not have good palates to begin with.

I do not see any attraction in buying non-USA made wines when well made, clean wines are made here and available for same prices as imports. Why send money out of the country?

[kenstogie]

I am not a wine guy (I do home brews) but I do like wine and of course taste is a personanl thing but...

Is there a classically good red wine?

To use an analogy.... Padron cigars (X000's series) in my experience almost always get a thumbs up and don't cost a fortune either.

Thanks!!

[Fumes]

I am really turned off by dyed maduro wrappers, mostly because I do not know what the process is for dying them. (Food coloring? What the hell is it?) I still wouldn't buy them because stained lips and fingers don't enhance the smoking experience for me, but I wouldn't view them with the same disdain if I knew the process was natural.

But it sounds like a lot of what they're doing with wine is tweaking it with natural wine byproducts. That doesn't sound so bad. Well, except for the silver nitrate and the methanol. Yikes.

Thanks for the info!

[Sauer Grapes]

Magnificent Vineyards makes some pretty good affordable wines. Their house wine in delicious and their "steak house" wine (cab sauv) is good as well. Not only are they good, but they don't give me a headache like other cheap wines. (I say that because although my taste buds will accept most cheap wines, they always give me a headache the next day with only one glass).

They are out of washington.

Has any one else tried this one? http://themagnificentwine.com/house_wine.php

I've been impressed by both of their offerings I've tried.

[landhoney]

There are some great looking (well, at least really good looking) 2008 Bordeaux futures that are under $20 now. You won't get them until sometime in 2011, but by then they may (I hesitate to say probably) be selling for a higher price. I have seen some of my '03, '04, '05 Future purchases rise greatly in value (some have almost doubled). I did not buy them to sell for profit, but if I bought them today they would cost a lot more. :2

[cherrybomb]

mcmanis cab 2007

[BeerAdvocate]

Im a fan of Blackstone Merlot

[Patrick B]

Pretty much everything I drink falls into this category of $20. Penfolds Cab/Syrah blend and Root One Cab are a couple favorites. Banfi as well. Also, pretty much any $15 bottle of Zin is a winner in my book.

[landhoney]

Had a 2006 David Bruce Pinot Noir (Central Coast) last night (rest of the bottle tonight....hopefully with a cigar) from Costco that I believe was under $20. Anyway, nice-easy drinking Pinot, maybe a little thin but good fruit and no real flaws. I am not a huge Pinot fan or expert, but I would buy this again.
Any other good Pinots in this price range? I'm sure there are, any I should try?

[TheRiddick]

Siduri makes an incredible $20 Pinot (blend of various vineyards they use), although it sells rather quickly. Give them a call.

[eber]

a local store by me has a brand called Black Oak, I have had the Shiraz 2005 so far and it was very enjoyable especially because they are 2 for $12 mix 'n match, they also have a brand called Viu Manent, from that vineyard I have had the 2008 Malbec and it was quite tasty for $9

[eber]

Has any one else tried this one? http://themagnificentwine.com/house_wine.php

I've been impressed by both of their offerings I've tried.

I have seen that brand all over the place and have yet to try it, maybe I should pick up a bottle next time I re-stock the rack :tu

[DrDubzz]

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but an excellent Chardonnay for about 10-11 dollars is Thierry and Guy: Fat Bastard

toasty, buttery, very nice

[BC-Axeman]

Big yellow smiley face on the bottle. Project Happiness '05 Syrah. $5.99. Good stuff. I don't think it tastes like I think a syrah should taste but it's really good. For $5.99 I would buy more anytime. Put it in a decanter or an unmarked bottle and you could fool people.

[Pilon]

Il Bastardo, Sangiovese from Italy. $6.99

Villa Puccini. $9.99

Briccotondo. $12.99

[BC-Axeman]

I've been told that Project Happiness wines might be a Trader Joe's exclusive.