Lifetime Ban for A-Rod?

[Starscream]

As much as I hate the guy, I find it equally disturbing that he's even being considered for a lifetime ban. I hate A-Rod because he's a cheater and he plays for money that he steals signs from second and sells it to the man up, but a part of me says that PEDs shouldn't be a part of this ban. I don't see the problem in players coming back from injury quicker b/c of PEDs. I don't see the problem with certain PED's as long as they aren't anabolic steroids. Players can test positive and be suspended from MLB play bc they drank too much Red Bull before a game (or before a drug test). The media makes it out that steroids in Baseball are the be all end all, but no one cares about PEDs in football or basketball. What's the difference? I know that baseball is a purist sport, but why not the outrage against football and basketball? And hockey for that matter?

It's nice to see the traditional media come around to my point of view, such as Paul Daugherty, and a few reporters from SI. I just do 't understand the double standard. I know I have *****ed about this subject before, but now it seems I have some media backing behind my views. Anyone else think that PED's aren't the absolute DEVIL in Baseball?

[Subvet642]

That would not be me. After all, if everyone is allowed to cheat, then what's the point of even playing? One of the beautiful things about Baseball is the ability to compare players across the span of time; once you introduce PED's into the equation, you can no longer do that. How does one compare a .300 hitter from 1950 to one using PED's today? You can't, and 153 years (since the founding of the National Association of American Base Ball Players in 1860) of stats and records become meaningless. Hell, if I had my way, they'd bring back the "dead" ball.

[shilala]

I'm with you 100%, Andy. I have been from day one. Tom feels the same way, too.
Darren, don't think for a second that the players from the 50's weren't using PED's. They used everything they could get their hands on, and it proliferated baseball.
Granted, we may have better stuff today, or at least safer stuff, but guys have used anything they could to get an edge since the beginning of time.

Andy, I know that the Player's Union has negotiated penalties for PED offenses. 1st offense is 50 games, 2nd offense 100, 3rd offense a lifetime ban.
Up till right now, I'd considered this Arod's 2nd offense. Thing is, he acted as a pusher in this whole Biogenesis thing, turning guys on and dragging them to the clinic.
So MLB may be considering his use as one offense, then the "pusher" thing as another. That would be a lifetime ban. If that's the case, he earned it.
I don't know the time frames involved, as in when this Biogenesis stuff started, but if it was after all the PED problems surfaced a number of years ago, I'd agree with his lifetime ban. Only because of his level of involvement and the fact that it was arrogant and incredibly stupid.
MLB doesn't want Arod breaking records. Look at what happened with Bonds. I think that plays a huge part, too.
Sounds to me like he's gone, but he'll lawyer it to death. He can likely hold the suspension off for a couple years, which is his likely lifespan left in baseball anyways.

[kelmac07]

I have no issue with a lifetime ban. Does he deserve it? That's up to the lawyers to fight out. I'm a baseball purity guy and I honestly believe that the integrity of the game should come first. As Scott said, players have been trying to gain an advantage since day one...whether it be creatine, taking PEDs, whatever they thought would give then an edge over their opponents. In Arod's case, he brought others into his circle and pimped Biogenesis as the next great advantage in baseball. Years later, it finally caught up to him and he must now face the music. If Pete Rose can receive a lifetime ban for betting on baseball, Arod can receive a lifetime ban for his involvement in the Biogenesis case. On a side note, MLB claims he has attempted to cover it up and deceive investigators...hence the integrity of the game route (can't appeal), versus the PED route(could appeal and play until that appeal is heard).

I still believe that Ryan Braun got over with his 65 game suspension. He's already hurt and probably not going to play anymore this year anyways. Besides, he's back next year to collect the remaining $ 117 million owed on his contract. And it's not like the Brewers were contenders. So, in essence, this was a slap on the wrist.

Now in Arods case, I believe the Yankees will use this (whatever decision is made) to void his god-awful contract (rightfully so...I would too). But if this happens, that just frees up the Yankees to allow them to purchase a big name bat/player for their lineup.

So, in the end...who really wins??? Baseball needs to crack down and make the penalties so severe that you wouldn't even consider using PEDs.

[CigarSquid]

I agree with the ban for his part with what he has done to 'promote' Biogenesis. I hope he gets something long, if not a lifetime ban. These players need to see that this is serious and cheaters will be punished.

I'm tired of seeing the players like Braun, get away with it.

[shilala]

This stuff sure makes Pete's ban look silly, doesn't it, Mac?
I sure wish they'd let Pete back in. I wish he'd have just come clean a lot sooner so he had a fighting chance. He belongs in the HOF if anyone ever belonged.

Nobody wins in this mess. Well, the lawyers do, but they always win.
I'm really on the fence right now, waiting to see what happens and how MLB justifies the penalty. In essence, I don't agree at all. But the pusher thing really does upset me. If I can get behind any ban or suspension, this is it.

I'm still pissed that MLB didn't level all these penalties at once and singled out Braun. While he may have deserved it in a way for his arrogance the last time around, it still wasn't right.

[kelmac07]

Big time silly Scott. :bh :bh

4,256 hits is crazy!!!

[The Poet]

It is my understanding that MLB is considering a lifetime ban NOT for A-Rod's alleged cheating with PEDs due to a connection to Biogenesis, but rather because A-Rod is refusing to just lay down and roll over by accepting a deal for a shorter suspension. His contention that he is innocent may or may not be true, yet any person should be allowed his "day in court" if he chooses. However, since A-Rod asserts he is innocent and will not in effect plead guilty by accepting a plea, MLB has taken the position that "OK, you don't wanna take the medicine we're forcing down your throat, well then take THIS instead!"

I don't like A-Rod, I don't necessarily believe him when he says he didn't do nuttin', and I would not cry and moan were he suspended for an extended period of time . . . if shown guilty of a violation, that is. (Being stupid enough to get within a mile of Biogenesis in the first place is, to me, NOT a "ban-able" offense in and of itself). Still, I have trouble with ANY fascist power-hungry person or organization, and for MLB to threaten A-Rod with a lifetime ban because he won't lay down and eat, say, a 100-game suspension without a fight . . . well, that's just wrong.

[AdamJoshua]

As said, the fact that they are even willing to let him "negotiate" sends a TERRIBLE message to other ball players and a really terrible message to the kids in minor league ball, if you are a big enough star and you cheat the same rules won't apply to you as they apply to everyone else.

This is suppose to be a deterrent to other players, they see someone get 50 games and lose a chunk of money it might keep them from doing it, if they see someone get 100 games it should reinforce that these are the rules and you'd hope a lifetime ban would scare the **** out of the fringe players that still weren't convinced.

Now with this move the MLB in their extremely limited wisdom are sending exactly the WRONG message, if you are going to cheat, cheat like hell, cheat all you can and if you get caught a couple times, even tampering with witnesses.... well just lawyer up and we'll talk.

[Blueface]

I think they have the goods on him.
He is just being another Lance Armstrong, who if you believed what he said, he didnt do any of what he was accused of.
The days of being a big boy, manning up, taking your just lumps are long over.
We are in a new era of deny, deny, deny and even when you are totally nailed to a cross with evidence, continue to deny it.
As a Yankees fan, a-Rod is an embarrassment.

[shilala]

I totally believed Lance Armstrong. Every word, like he was a Saint.
I wouldn't even believe directions to 7-11 from Arod.

[Blueface]

Ha!
First he was going to fight it legally to the end.
Seems after seeing the crap against him, is now countering the purported 200 game suspension without pay. Seems the hold out on the agreement is a reduction of the suspension given it will be lesser on the other involved players.
I hope he refuses to accept the deal and is banned for life.
This crap has to stop.

[chippewastud79]

I have no problem with banning players for life, but the problem is that there needs to be consistency. If Rodriguez goes for life, why does Braun get 65 games off his schedule on a team that is 20 games below .500? One could argue that Braun actually looks worse for baseball because he won an MVP and then immediately tested positive, to which he responded by throwing everyone under the bus, wrecked the testers reputation, lost Aaron Rodgers a year of salary and bet his own life on not cheating.

The Lifetime ban actually helps the Yankees, which I think is a joke. The Yankees don't want Alex back, they don't want to pay him, so the MLB is going to bail them out. Better believe the Yankees are pushing his ban behind the scenes.

Yahoo actually had one of their "sports commentators" release a video claiming that Pete Rose betting on baseball is actually worse than cheating the game with PED's. Of course the guy is a moron, but I digress.

[The Poet]

Yahoo actually had one of their "sports commentators" release a video claiming that Pete Rose betting on baseball is actually worse than cheating the game with PED's. Of course the guy is a moron, but I digress.

Sorry, but I cannot agree with those who support Pete Rose. The rule against gambling was hard and fast ever since the Black Sox scandal, with no doubts as to the consequences. But with PEDs, MLB first ignored the problem, then frowned upon the problem, then finally at last banned usage. As much as I might consider this "cheating", I can somewhat understand both the confusion and the temptation players faced. Furthermore, how can you condemn A-Rod for not confessing to his sins when Pete Rose was the poster-boy of denial?

Ban A-Rod for life if you must, but don't defend Charlie the Hustler at the same time. That's just flawed logic.

[Blueface]

They are saying the reason for the tougher punishment with A-Rod has to do with potential criminal activity to degree of tampering, recruiting and a few other things with that clinic. It's more than the use of PED's. They want to send a message as such.

[The Poet]

They are saying the reason for the tougher punishment with A-Rod has to do with potential criminal activity to degree of tampering, recruiting and a few other things with that clinic. It's more than the use of PED's. They want to send a message as such.

If A-Rod was shilling for illegal activity, then he should not be banned . . . he should be jailed. However, though I am no fan of his, I still want to see this proved, not merely "said".

[357]

I have no problem with banning players for life, but the problem is that there needs to be consistency. If Rodriguez goes for life, why does Braun get 65 games off his schedule on a team that is 20 games below .500? One could argue that Braun actually looks worse for baseball because he won an MVP and then immediately tested positive, to which he responded by throwing everyone under the bus, wrecked the testers reputation, lost Aaron Rodgers a year of salary and bet his own life on not cheating.

The Lifetime ban actually helps the Yankees, which I think is a joke. The Yankees don't want Alex back, they don't want to pay him, so the MLB is going to bail them out. Better believe the Yankees are pushing his ban behind the scenes.

Yahoo actually had one of their "sports commentators" release a video claiming that Pete Rose betting on baseball is actually worse than cheating the game with PED's. Of course the guy is a moron, but I digress.

I value your opinon on this Adam. I don't have issue with lifetime bans for PEDs. There should be daily or weekly testing of every player with a lifetime ban / voided contract for a positive test.

Unfortunately I think you're right about the Yankees. They're probably lobbying for him to get the ban so they don't have to pay $100 Million on an average player of the next few years.

On Rose, I disagree somewhat. If a player/manager admits to gambling on games he's involved with it implies a high probability of losing for proft. This is a bit worse than trying to get a competitive edge with some new drug. At least the cheaters are trying to win, not losing on purpose for profit. Both are unacceptable but I see the sports writer's side of this one.

[688sonarmen]

I'm with Darren in this one. As for the players in the 1950s using PEDs where is the evidence for this? I have heard it so many times but never have seen any proof.

[Blueface]

If A-Rod was shilling for illegal activity, then he should not be banned . . . he should be jailed. However, though I am no fan of his, I still want to see this proved, not merely "said".

If he accepts the suspension, or does not contest it even if doesnt accept it, that will be all the proof in the world.;)

[MedicCook]

With A-Roid it is not just a PED issue. That is just issue one. He recruited players into Bio, when the story broke he attempted to pay off witnesses to keep quiet he lied to MLB during the investigation. Not sure if anyone listened to ESPN radio this morning but they had a biographer on who wrote about A-Roid after his public admission. He was associated in High School with people who had access to steroids. Can if be proven he was using PEDs since High School probably not. Can you assume with what you have seen that he has been a user his whole life? I personally think he has been cheating from the very start. A-Roid does not care about baseball and knows at this point he has zero chance to make money off the game when he retires and the HOF is completely gone for him. He is fighting not to be able to play but to be able to collect $100M still on the contract. If he never plays another game I won't be sad.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Blueface]

With A-Roid it is not just a PED issue. That is just issue one. He recruited players into Bio, when the story broke he attempted to pay off witnesses to keep quiet he lied to MLB during the investigation. Not sure if anyone listened to ESPN radio this morning but they had a biographer on who wrote about A-Roid after his public admission. He was associated in High School with people who had access to steroids. Can if be proven he was using PEDs since High School probably not. Can you assume with what you have seen that he has been a user his whole life? I personally think he has been cheating from the very start. A-Roid does not care about baseball and knows at this point he has zero chance to make money off the game when he retires and the HOF is completely gone for him. He is fighting not to be able to play but to be able to collect $100M still on the contract. If he never plays another game I won't be sad.
Posted via Mobile Device

:tpd:

[The Poet]

If he accepts the suspension, or does not contest it even if doesnt accept it, that will be all the proof in the world.;)

The whole thing seems to me like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. If you accept a plea bargain, you are guilty. If you fight it, you are hiding something and thus are guilty.

Hey, I keep telling you I don't like this jerk any better than the next thinking guy. I merely want justice done, not spiteful vengeance.

[Blueface]

The whole thing seems to me like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. If you accept a plea bargain, you are guilty. If you fight it, you are hiding something and thus are guilty.

Hey, I keep telling you I don't like this jerk any better than the next thinking guy. I merely want justice done, not spiteful vengeance.

Can't look at it that way.
If innocent, you defend yourself.
If you accept a plea, you are guilty and have a reason to take the plea, generally to reduce your sentence/punishment.
Happens in criminal courts and prosecutors offices every day.
If we applied same logic, those criminals with now convictions are the A-Rod you refer to.
Just food for thought.

[shilala]

As for the players in the 1950s using PEDs where is the evidence for this? I have heard it so many times but never have seen any proof.
It's just a known fact. Realize PED stands for "performance enhancing drug". You can dump alcohol, vitamins, cocaine, and any other substance in that category. It's not just steroids.
There are lots of books that reference the topic of drugs in sports, like "A History of Drug Use in Sport: 1876-1976: Beyond Good and Evil" By Paul Dimeo.
I don't mean any disrespect at all, but if you haven't seen any proof, you're not looking, brother.

[The Poet]

It's just a known fact. Realize PED stands for "performance enhancing drug". You can dump alcohol, vitamins, cocaine, and any other substance in that category. It's not just steroids.
There are lots of books that reference the topic of drugs in sports, like "A History of Drug Use in Sport: 1876-1976: Beyond Good and Evil" By Paul Dimeo.
I don't mean any disrespect at all, but if you haven't seen any proof, you're not looking, brother.

Yep.

[688sonarmen]

It's just a known fact. Realize PED stands for "performance enhancing drug". You can dump alcohol, vitamins, cocaine, and any other substance in that category. It's not just steroids.
There are lots of books that reference the topic of drugs in sports, like "A History of Drug Use in Sport: 1876-1976: Beyond Good and Evil" By Paul Dimeo.
I don't mean any disrespect at all, but if you haven't seen any proof, you're not looking, brother.

None taken Scott :tu I'll check those out.

[shilala]

Jake, here's an excellent "Sports and Drugs Timeline (http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=002366)".
The good sports/drug/history books are around 40 bucks at Amazon. I don't think that's what you're after, they're like reading a thousand pages of shampoo ingredients.
That timeline is a good little read. :tu

[Stephen]

I'm with Darren in this one. As for the players in the 1950s using PEDs where is the evidence for this? I have heard it so many times but never have seen any proof.
Maybe they had bacne or their forehead got bigger or some other ridiculous innuendo bullcrap I've had to hear ad nauseum for the past dozen years...

[Subvet642]

It's just a known fact. Realize PED stands for "performance enhancing drug". You can dump alcohol, vitamins, cocaine, and any other substance in that category. It's not just steroids.
There are lots of books that reference the topic of drugs in sports, like "A History of Drug Use in Sport: 1876-1976: Beyond Good and Evil" By Paul Dimeo.
I don't mean any disrespect at all, but if you haven't seen any proof, you're not looking, brother.

I've never seen alcohol or cocaine enhance anyone's performance.

[kelmac07]

I've never seen alcohol or cocaine enhance anyone's performance.

David Wells "claims" he pitched his no-hitter drunk.

[688sonarmen]

David Wells "claims" he pitched his no-hitter drunk.

That should count for 2.

[shilala]

I just heard a nugget on this...
They say Aroid made a comment after his Double A game last night about MLB (and someone else) conspiring against him, and now MLB has ceased negotiations, saying they're all done.

[AdamJoshua]

MLB has said repeatedly that the Yankees have no place in negotiations and that discipline was the domain of Selig and no one else, a source said. Several sources also said that Selig was "furious" with Rodriguez for telling reporters he would not negotiate, even as his attorneys sought a deal to mitigate MLB's looming punishment.

Typical A-roid, bullshitting out of one side of his mouth while doing the exact opposite. They are saying ban is the rest of this year and all of next.

[Ubiquitous]

Being a Sox fan, I say BAN HIM.

Bluff: if they ban him, this starts a tough road to MLB strictly enforcing a policy they randomly test players to adhere to. There is no clear cut "right answer". I say, cap his pay at the league minimum for the remainder of his career.

[BlackDog]

Sure, ban him for life and let him go do autographs with Pete Rose.

Signed,

A Mets Fan ;)

[AdamJoshua]

If you dislike the Yankees you DON'T want him banned for life, if they ban him for life the MFYs don't have to pay him anymore, the guy has been pretty much useless for years and set to make 25mm each of the next years, you want him to get 1 yr then "come back and play and get paid".

[AdamJoshua]

214 games.

[E.J.]

I think this is unfortunate.... I think they should have made him play out his contract w/ NYY, at 3rd base, 162 games a year....+ every possible playoff game.

[Starscream]

If A-Rod was shilling for illegal activity, then he should not be banned . . . he should be jailed. However, though I am no fan of his, I still want to see this proved, not merely "said".

This.


I can't stand A-Rod, but let's have proof before anything rash is done.

[Starscream]

It's just a known fact. Realize PED stands for "performance enhancing drug". You can dump alcohol, vitamins, cocaine, and any other substance in that category. It's not just steroids.
There are lots of books that reference the topic of drugs in sports, like "A History of Drug Use in Sport: 1876-1976: Beyond Good and Evil" By Paul Dimeo.
I don't mean any disrespect at all, but if you haven't seen any proof, you're not looking, brother.
Exactly, Scott.
This is my whole argument regarding PEDs. Drinking too much Red Bull before a test and you will get popped by the MLB PED test. Anyone ever read the list of banned substances by the MLB? It's crazy. Sticking a needle in your rear end is one thing, but these guys can't even use a steroid cream to come back from injury and heal. You might as well make sure that players eat only organic foods b/c all of our meat is jacked up with steroids, and most of our vegetables are genetically modified. That stuff is going into their bodies, why not go ahead and ban that too?


Why is this not an issue in the NFL?

Sorry for the rant.;s

[shilala]

Arod is gonna get the sink tossed at him. 214 games seems to be what the standard mlb leak says, but I wouldn't be remotely surprised if they try to fly a lifetime ban, then settle with Aroid's lawyers at around 100 games (despie Selig being furious with Aroid) .

Two things that upset me...
1.) MLB can't do anything without every stitch of information being leaked to media. It's retarded, and shows Selig can't do his job with any sort of professionalism.
2.) Aroid is getting the Bonds treatment. Fans and media do not like Aroid and do not want him breaking any records. Bonds was in the same boat.

These penalties should not be about a personality contest. Look at the things Ortiz, Sosa, Pettite, and other media darlings have done. None have ever gotten any sort of meaningful penalty for the same things.
Now MLB is going to "take a stance". That's complete and utter bullshit. This whole thing has NOTHING to do with right and wrong. It has to do with money and making the product as palatable as possible for fans that inject said money.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. It's a privately owned and operated game meant for our entertainment. So far as I know, all this could be contrived, just like in the WWF, just to increase the buzz around baseball and raise attendance and junk sales.
My point is, I don't appreciate being lied to. Nobody does. It's insulting.
For MLB to say now that they're all about some sort of war on drugs, that's just ludicrous. If that was so, half the league would be sitting out 50 day suspensions for failing on recreational drugs and Red Bull.

MLB has had TWENTY YEARS to set penalties for these sort of infractions and to end this nonsense. It's all been crystal clear since McGwire and Canseco were tearing up the league at a phenomenal pace as the Bash Brothers.
Penalties should be clear and concise, no nonsense, and should have been that way for a long, long time now. Yet if it's a player that people don't like, he gets 64 games instead of 50. Or 214 instead of 100 (which is the penalty set for a second PED infraction).

I have zero respect for Selig's office at this point. He deserves zero credibility.
As much as we all gripe about Roger Goodell, that boy runs his operation like the Marines compared to these MLB monkies.

[chippewastud79]

Why is this not an issue in the NFL?



This isn't an issue in the NFL (as far as positive tests go, at least), because the NFL has long had the most stringent drug testing program of the 4 most prevalent leagues. Mandatory test at the NFL Combine for all incoming athletes, mandatory tests once a year for every player, and random testing of 10 players on every team, every week.

The MLB never had a drug program for PED's, people started to chime in about getting one, and frankly the MLB rushed to create a drug program to save face. They were fine with Sammy and Mark putting butts in the seats, fine with homeruns flying out of the parks and then they got too big for their britches. People began pushing back claiming that they were allowing PED's to ruin the game, when records started getting broken.

[AdamJoshua]

So they announced 12 but no Arod yet, he get's his own announcement, I suppose when you are recruiting players to use that clinic and roids it's a special case, shmuck.

The players confirmed to be suspended by FoxSports.com are:

• Nelson Cruz, Texas Rangers outfielder (50 games, no appeal).

• Everth Cabrera, San Diego Padres shortstop, (50 games, no appeal).

• Jhonny Peralta, Detroit Tigers shortstop (50 games, no appeal).

• Antonio Bastardo, Philadelphia Phillies reliever (50 games, no appeal).

• Jordany Valdespin, New York Mets outfielder, (50 games, no appeal).
• Francisco Cervelli, Yankees catcher.

• Jesus Montero, Seattle Mariners catcher.

• Cesar Puello, New York Mets outfield prospect.

• Fautino De Los Santos, San Diego Padres pitching prospect.

• Sergio Escalona, Houston Astros pitching prospect.

• Fernando Martinez, New York Yankees outfield prospect.

• Jordan Norberto, free-agent pitcher.

[markem]

This article seems informative, but who knows.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/05/sports/baseball/rodriguez-is-expected-to-play-while-appealing-suspension.html?hpw&_r=0

When they say that there is a noon announcement, I would have thought 12 EDT, but no announcement yet.

[Starscream]

So they announced 12 but no Arod yet, he get's his own announcement, I suppose when you are recruiting players to use that clinic and roids it's a special case, shmuck.

The players confirmed to be suspended by FoxSports.com are:

• Nelson Cruz, Texas Rangers outfielder (50 games, no appeal).

• Everth Cabrera, San Diego Padres shortstop, (50 games, no appeal).

• Jhonny Peralta, Detroit Tigers shortstop (50 games, no appeal).

• Antonio Bastardo, Philadelphia Phillies reliever (50 games, no appeal).

• Jordany Valdespin, New York Mets outfielder, (50 games, no appeal).
• Francisco Cervelli, Yankees catcher.

• Jesus Montero, Seattle Mariners catcher.

• Cesar Puello, New York Mets outfield prospect.

• Fautino De Los Santos, San Diego Padres pitching prospect.

• Sergio Escalona, Houston Astros pitching prospect.

• Fernando Martinez, New York Yankees outfield prospect.

• Jordan Norberto, free-agent pitcher.
What's the punishment for all of the prospects?

[kelmac07]

• Jordany Valdespin, New York Mets outfielder, (50 games, no appeal).

• Cesar Puello, New York Mets outfield prospect.

Two Mets...go figure. Two Yankees too...three if you count Montero (He used to be a Yankee). :D

The good news is that Valdespin hasn't contributed anything to the big ball club in over 6 weeks...so this hurts us how? :r :r :r

[The Poet]

I don't get this at all. As I've said before, I am not a fan of A-Rod. Plus, as a Yankee fan, I can see the potential benefits of getting rid of him and his contract, at least in the long term. But to give him over 4 times the penalty issued against others, for something they they have yet to prove? Is that right? MLB is using the excuse that A-Rod is a repeat offender, yet a) he has never tested positive for PEDs, and b) he has never been disciplined or penalized in the past. How can they possibly invoke some sort of "three-strike rule" under these circumstances?

Hey, it is what it is, or what it will be, but I don't think it is just. Is he guilty? It would not shock me if he is. And if he is, then smack him hard. But smack him fairly and justifiably, not just because he's an @$$.

[The Poet]

The latest report has the suspension handed down by MLB to have been reduced from the reported 214 games . . . down to 211. :r



A-Rod will doubtless appeal, so who know when this ban will start.

[Blueface]

I am confused. I just don't get the "we need proof" audience.

If an employer (MLB in this case), suspects and feels they have evidence an employee (A-Rod in this case and a bunch of other employees) have been involved in what they deem inappropriate and unacceptable for the work environment and said employer decides to fire some, punish others with suspensions and perhaps even excuse a few, that is wrong how? They have to prove it to who?

Question, where is their player's union? Why aren't they asking for the evidence? Or filing suit? If and when that happens, then and only then will the employer need to show said proof. Until then, they obviously feel they have the goods to support their decision.

My only gripe is how short that suspension list is and I know the reason why as there would otherwise be no players left to play the game. That is the truly sad part.

[Dave128]

I am confused. I just don't get the "we need proof" audience.

If an employer (MLB in this case), suspects and feels they have evidence an employee (A-Rod in this case and a bunch of other employees) have been involved in what they deem inappropriate and unacceptable for the work environment and said employer decides to fire some, punish others with suspensions and perhaps even excuse a few, that is wrong how? They have to prove it to who?

Question, where is their player's union? Why aren't they asking for the evidence? Or filing suit? If and when that happens, then and only then will the employer need to show said proof. Until then, they obviously feel they have the goods to support their decision.

My only gripe is how short that suspension list is and I know the reason why as there would otherwise be no players left to play the game. That is the truly sad part.

We are only the fans that watch the game from our couches. I have no doubt that all of the evidence was presented in the proper manner to the proper people and that the union did what they could to help the players as best that they could. My biggest gripe is that I thought the penalty was 50, 100 then lifetime ban. How did they collectively come up with 211? Also, why does it appear that ARod is the only player that will be granted an appeal? We can only sit here and speculate as to what really happened behind closed doors. In my opinion, there are so many unaswered questions with all of this that it makes my head spin.

[The Poet]

I am confused. I just don't get the "we need proof" audience.



Guilty, with or without proof? :confused:


OK, sounds fair to me. :D

[Starscream]

I am confused. I just don't get the "we need proof" audience.

If an employer (MLB in this case), suspects and feels they have evidence an employee (A-Rod in this case and a bunch of other employees) have been involved in what they deem inappropriate and unacceptable for the work environment and said employer decides to fire some, punish others with suspensions and perhaps even excuse a few, that is wrong how? They have to prove it to who?

Question, where is their player's union? Why aren't they asking for the evidence? Or filing suit? If and when that happens, then and only then will the employer need to show said proof. Until then, they obviously feel they have the goods to support their decision.

My only gripe is how short that suspension list is and I know the reason why as there would otherwise be no players left to play the game. That is the truly sad part.

The MLB isn't the employer, the Yankees are (i'm assuming it still works that way). It would be a different story if the Yankees handed out punishment b/c he's signed with them. If I were a team owner, I would be highly upset if the league tried to ban one of my players without evidence.
I'm probably wrong here though in regards to the business side of the game and how it works nowadays.

[Blueface]

Guilty, with or without proof? :confused:


OK, sounds fair to me. :D

I think I am misunderstood.

Of course I believe there should be proof.
I just don't believe we are the judges of said proof.
I don't believe we are at liberty to know at this time.

As I mentioned earlier, compare it to a criminal or civil case.
Action is taken such as an indictment.
Eventually, accused accepts a plea or is tried. If the latter, then the evidence will be presented. If accepts a plea, the world will never know.
Unfortunately, this is an employer, with contracts and clauses and can act very differently in a manner as they wish.

If A-arod does not challenge it, rest assured the evidence sufficed.
If he challenges, just like the criminal going to trial, then we will eventually know and be able to still debate it all as opinions will always differ on what each of us considers just punishment.

[Starscream]

I think I am misunderstood.

Of course I believe there should be proof.
I just don't believe we are the judges of said proof.
I don't believe we are at liberty to know at this time.

As I mentioned earlier, compare it to a criminal or civil case.
Action is taken such as an indictment.
Eventually, accused accepts a plea or is tried. If the latter, then the evidence will be presented. If accepts a plea, the world will never know.
Unfortunately, this is an employer, with contracts and clauses.

If A-arod does not challenge it, rest assured the evidence sufficed.
If he challenges, just like the criminal going to trial, then we will eventually know and be able to still debate it all as opinions will always differ on what each of us considers just punishment.
I agree with that.:tu

[Blueface]

The MLB isn't the employer, the Yankees are (i'm assuming it still works that way). It would be a different story if the Yankees handed out punishment b/c he's signed with them. If I were a team owner, I would be highly upset if the league tried to ban one of my players without evidence.
I'm probably wrong here though in regards to the business side of the game and how it works nowadays.

Of course his employer is the Yankees but I see them as Cadillac, where baseball is GM as it relates to control of rules for the league.
Interesting point you raise as we haven't heard a word from the Yankees but I am sure the savings in pay justifies that for them.;)

[AdamJoshua]

The MLB isn't the employer, the Yankees are (i'm assuming it still works that way). It would be a different story if the Yankees handed out punishment b/c he's signed with them. If I were a team owner, I would be highly upset if the league tried to ban one of my players without evidence.
I'm probably wrong here though in regards to the business side of the game and how it works nowadays.

You sign a contract that says you will uphold the values set by MLB, I'm sure there is the same for each individual team, but up on top of the ladder is MLB.

Supposedly there are 100s of names in the files, the person that gave the names was pissed off how MLB has handled it and hasn't been cooperating as of late, so they say.

I have a feeling the yankees aren't as ticked off as they are pretending to be, unless it's the fact they wanted him banned for life so they could get out from under his huge contract, same reason he was fighting for a shorter ban.

Oh well he'll hit just as good without playing as he has when he was playing, the problem is they need to bring up / get a full time 3rd baseman for next year, then go back to arod after that, sucks to be them.... haha

[Starscream]

Of course his employer is the Yankees but I see them as Cadillac, where baseball is GM as it relates to control of rules for the league.
Interesting point you raise as we haven't heard a word from the Yankees but I am sure the savings in pay justifies that for them.;)

I'd bet the Yankees are hoping for the suspension. It'd save them a ton of money and headache.:)

[357]

Guilty, with or without proof? :confused:


OK, sounds fair to me. :D

I think most of those who chose not to appeal, did so to prevent the evidence from being made public. Would you accept 1/3 pay reduction at your job without a fight if your accuser had nothing on you?

[yourchoice]

Also, why does it appear that ARod is the only player that will be granted an appeal?

It's my understanding everyone had the right to appeal, but only ARoid is choosing to do so.

[shilala]

It's my understanding everyone had the right to appeal, but only ARoid is choosing to do so.
I don't think that's the case. I forget what the distinction between an appealable offense and one that can't be appealed.
The list I saw had (no appeal) after the first half of the names, and no such thing after the second half of the names.

I wish I wasn't brain dead and could remember the distinction for you, Joel. I read so many stories I can't think of where to look.

Ahh, I got it. The players were suspended for non-analytical positives, meaning they didn't get caught by testing, so they can't appeal. The CBA says they can appeal tests, but not non-analytical offenses.
A few of the guys also failed a test, Colon, Cabrera, and Grandal all had positive tests in the past year, plus they were damned by the Biogenesis records. Being that the test and records overlapped, it'd be double jeopardy if they charged them for failing the test and being caught in the paperwork. So they charged them with the non-analytical evidence and just dropped the positive tests, avoiding appeals.

I'm not exactly sure why Aroid can appeal. Maybe because of the punishment or because it's his second charged violation?
I'll see if I can figure that one out.

[357]

Aroid was punished under a different rule, one about damaging the sport. It's penalty is subject to the commish only if I remember correctly.

[shilala]

Aroid was punished under a different rule, one about damaging the sport. It's penalty is subject to the commish only if I remember correctly.
That'd be it. I know it was something outside the CBA because I heard that, but had no idea what.
Thanks, Mike!!! :tu

[Dave128]

Thanks for clearing that up for me, fellas.

[dave]

Ahh, I got it. The players were suspended for non-analytical positives, meaning they didn't get caught by testing,,,,,

Quite obviously MLB's testing is a useless, abject failure. PED's remain rampant and there's not a damn thing MLB can do unless someone snitches or a doc gets careless.

[yourchoice]

I don't think that's the case. I forget what the distinction between an appealable offense and one that can't be appealed.
The list I saw had (no appeal) after the first half of the names, and no such thing after the second half of the names.

I wish I wasn't brain dead and could remember the distinction for you, Joel. I read so many stories I can't think of where to look.

Ahh, I got it. The players were suspended for non-analytical positives, meaning they didn't get caught by testing, so they can't appeal. The CBA says they can appeal tests, but not non-analytical offenses.
A few of the guys also failed a test, Colon, Cabrera, and Grandal all had positive tests in the past year, plus they were damned by the Biogenesis records. Being that the test and records overlapped, it'd be double jeopardy if they charged them for failing the test and being caught in the paperwork. So they charged them with the non-analytical evidence and just dropped the positive tests, avoiding appeals.

I'm not exactly sure why Aroid can appeal. Maybe because of the punishment or because it's his second charged violation?
I'll see if I can figure that one out.

Huh...I hadn't heard that before. Not saying it's inaccurate, but ESPN said this in their article here (http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9540755/mlb-bans-13-including-alex-rodriguez-new-york-yankees-2014).

The 12 other players agreed to deals for their suspensions in which they gave up the right to appeal.

Which I inferred that if they didn't agree to the deals they could have appealed. I don't know for sure though...

[gorob23]

I hate A-Rod because he steals signs from second and sells it to the man up,

I would blame the catcher for this not the runner at second for doing his job... now the PED's that a whole different ball game.

Just my .02 I'm done

Rob :tf

[billybarue]

Quite obviously MLB's testing is a useless, abject failure. PED's remain rampant and there's not a damn thing MLB can do unless someone snitches or a doc gets careless.

Plenty they can do about it. Weekly MANDATORY random and non-random drug screening. I am subject (Not weekly) to it as an airline pilot and have spent 24 years in the AF/AF Reserves subject to it.

The owners can build monstrous new stadiums, charge $12 for a 16 ounce beer, players make $5 million plus a year, agents and lawyers are raking in the cash, corporations, corporate sponsors (stadiums), and advertising agencies (think about 10 seconds of Super bowl air time) are swimming in money from pro sports, tax revenue base for: stadiums, concessions, parking, etc etc are making politicians powerful and rich too.

In all that money the first priority SHOULD be to keep this game, OUR GAME, clean. There is plenty of money flying around to do that. And therein lies the problem - there's plenty of money flying around and everybody wants their big cut; at the expense of the game. You throw "thirty pieces of silver" on the table and you can get people to do anything - It's human nature.

So I turn my introspection to the fan (Us). ARoid, Bonds, McGuire, all exist not because of their greed and ego (per se), but rather because we continue to fund it. Everybody keeps going to the stadiums and buying the merchandise and worshipping these guys and it will just continue. The purity of the game is gone. But, after 20 years I had to go back and see an MLB game with my 6 year old son. Out in San Diego, great new stadium and location. I don't pay attention anymore. I was just there for the spectacle and the stadium and the show, As well as the desire to take my son to his first game. The players, coaches, managers, and owners are nameless to me. I don't care who is up on that stage or the statistics - it's nothing more than a theatrical production. Good player on third, Chase Headley, I think. He had a good game defensively with a couple of hits. Fun player to watch, but I didn't see him. I just saw the face of Brooks Robinson, my all-time favorite, and I sat back and enjoyed the show and thought about all the great memories of the past. I am going to Wrigley next week (w/ my son) for the first time in my life. Again, just for the show and to see Wrigley - nothing more. We'll talk a lot about guys like Sanberg, Dawson, Santo, and Banks but I don't think I'll even notice who's in the lineup for the day we're there.

I am so jaded on baseball, the game I loved, I can't believe it. "Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio, our nation turns its lonely eyes to you ...."

[dave]

Good words, Billybarue. Closely mirrors my sentiments. I left baseball for good when it deserted me in '94. It still won't look me in the eye and I won't give it the time of day.

[Col. Kurtz]

Good words, Billybarue. Closely mirrors my sentiments. I left baseball for good when it deserted me in '94. It still won't look me in the eye and I won't give it the time of day.

QFT. I was the biggest mets fan in the south growing up. Dykstra, strawberry, et. Al. They lost me in 94. Sealed the deal with Alomar's spit. All have been dirty and dead to me since then. Shame MLB. Shame. The roid record chasers affirmed my indignation. Bonds and Mac made a mockery of the sport from my perspective. Could care less about what I have heard is great AAA ball less than 10 & 20 miles from me. What role models? Who should care?

[billybarue]

QFT. I was the biggest mets fan in the south growing up. Dykstra, strawberry, et. Al. They lost me in 94. Sealed the deal with Alomar's spit. All have been dirty and dead to me since then. Shame MLB. Shame. The roid record chasers affirmed my indignation. Bonds and Mac made a mockery of the sport from my perspective. Could care less about what I have heard is great AAA ball less than 10 & 20 miles from me. What role models? Who should care?

I was stationed at Scott AFB (just outside of St Louis) from '96-'99. I didn't know how great a baseball town it is and what the Cardinals have meant to MLB. I was pissed after '94, but i got sucked back in with the Griffey/McGwire home run race of '97. The deception continued into '98 with Sosa. I remember sitting pretty close to the first base line and commenting to a buddy, "cripes, McGwire's got three sets of traps (shoulders)". The dude was a mountain. He was getting "fisted" inside or throwing away from him. Seems if he got a bat to the ball he had the strength to put the ball out to any spot on command. Personally I liked the guy And loved the antics with Sosa, but the worst deceptions are promulgated by those you feel closest to or identify with. Again, it's not your Game Mac - it's OUR GAME!!!

The memory of McGwire at the press conference with tears in his eyes talking about how proud he was that his bat would sit next to Maris' in the HOF, still turns my stomach. IMO opinion McGwire couldn't carry water for Maris. And Mac taking the 5th in front of Congress and Palmiero shaking his finger at the committee. Not your game fellas, they continue to fail to grasp that point. And we continue to fail to remind them of it!

[The Poet]

Take this with as much salt as you can stomach, but it is a take nonetheless:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/cuban-mlbs-suspension-rod-personal-150046476--nba.html

[Starscream]

Take this with as much salt as you can stomach, but it is a take nonetheless:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/cuban-mlbs-suspension-rod-personal-150046476--nba.html

Good read. Cuban can be an @$$, but he always speaks his mind.

[shilala]

I feel much the same way as Cuban does, but when he says it there's not much weight left behind it since he's been snubbed by the MLB twice.
Had Aroid got 100 games like he should, it would all be a non-issue. Selig isn't retarded, he knows that. I'm not sure if he thinks he's sending a message to the fans, the players, or it's just his hurt pride.
It just doesn't make sense to say 211 games and know the whole thing will hang in the air forever. He has to know that fans are sick of the PED drama and that every time it plays out in the media, he looks bad for still not having a handle on it after all these years.

[DaBear]

Not trying to get anyone bent out of shape here, but I question strongly the supposed prior "purity" of the game, and the so called "role models" of old. Many of the biggest names in baseball were known drunkards(Mantle, Ruth, etc) amongst other things, so I question how they could be considered "role models"(not saying anyone here implied this, just making a point as many kids, and parents of kids want themselves/their kids to be the next Babe Ruth). Plus, baseball has a history of cheaters within the game. Mickey Mantle is now known to have corked bats(which his family refutes, but independent experts found true). The MLB has never even taken corking bats seriously, with only six suspensions for it in the last 40 years, with the worst of the suspensions lasting 8 games, and former players coming out and admitting to corking as well.

[The Poet]

Not trying to get anyone bent out of shape here, but I question strongly the supposed prior "purity" of the game, and the so called "role models" of old. Many of the biggest names in baseball were known drunkards(Mantle, Ruth, etc) amongst other things, so I question how they could be considered "role models"(not saying anyone here implied this, just making a point as many kids, and parents of kids want themselves/their kids to be the next Babe Ruth). Plus, baseball has a history of cheaters within the game. Mickey Mantle is now known to have corked bats(which his family refutes, but independent experts found true). The MLB has never even taken corking bats seriously, with only six suspensions for it in the last 40 years, with the worst of the suspensions lasting 8 games, and former players coming out and admitting to corking as well.

No doubt, and not only "cheating". Ty Cobb was a nasty racist jerk, and Pete Rose was both a jerk and a liar. Sammy Sosa had a corked bat break at the plate, then denied he knew it was corked. And not to jump on Bear's anti-Yankee bandwagon (:D), Billy Martin was a mean drunk as well. We could go on forever, though its relevance to the issue (A-Rod's possibly excessive ban) could be questioned.

[DaBear]

No doubt, and not only "cheating". Ty Cobb was a nasty racist jerk, and Pete Rose was both a jerk and a liar. Sammy Sosa had a corked bat break at the plate, then denied he knew it was corked. And not to jump on Bear's anti-Yankee bandwagon (:D), Billy Martin was a mean drunk as well. We could go on forever, though its relevance to the issue (A-Rod's possibly excessive ban) could be questioned.

My bringing this up comes from seeing a couple posts about how baseball has recently lost its purity(or at least thats how I read it). I'm just trying to point out that it ain't really a recent thing that a)players have been cheating and got caught, and b)baseball has lost its "purity."

[The Poet]

My bringing this up comes from seeing a couple posts about how baseball has recently lost its purity(or at least thats how I read it). I'm just trying to point out that it ain't really a recent thing that a)players have been cheating and got caught, and b)baseball has lost its "purity."

True dat. Ain't nuttin' new under the sun for the boys of summer.

[gorob23]

it's OUR GAME!!! !

I grew up loving baseball. Played it every waking second. Made my friends play over the line, watched the games on TV, listen to "Scully" on the radio, checked the stats. Couldn't do a lick of math homework but could do ANY baseball stat in the world.

But then

The 1981 Major League Baseball strike was the fourth work stoppage in Major League Baseball since the 1972 Major League Baseball strike.[1] The strike began on June 12 and forced the cancellation of 713 games (or 38 percent of the Major League schedule) in the middle of the regular season. The two sides reached an agreement on July 31, and play resumed on August 9 with the All-Star Game, with regular season play resuming one day later.

My buddy and I were older, fed up and printed t - shirts up and started an organization

F.A.N.S. had the word baseball with the international Red Circle through it (copyrighted) and then they settled. I just realized since then I have coached more games at Chavez Ravine than I have gone to watch :r

oh Yea FA.N.S. = Fans Announce New Strike :tu

College ball :)

Rob

[The Poet]

I grew up loving baseball. Played it every waking second. Made my friends play over the line, watched the games on TV, listen to "Scully" on the radio, checked the stats. Couldn't do a lick of math homework but could do ANY baseball stat in the world.

But then

The 1981 Major League Baseball strike was the fourth work stoppage in Major League Baseball since the 1972 Major League Baseball strike.[1] The strike began on June 12 and forced the cancellation of 713 games (or 38 percent of the Major League schedule) in the middle of the regular season. The two sides reached an agreement on July 31, and play resumed on August 9 with the All-Star Game, with regular season play resuming one day later.

My buddy and I were older, fed up and printed t - shirts up and started an organization

F.A.N.S. had the word baseball with the international Red Circle through it (copyrighted) and then they settled. I just realized since then I have coached more games at Chavez Ravine than I have gone to watch :r

oh Yea FA.N.S. = Fans Announce New Strike :tu

College ball :)

Rob

That's all well and good, Rob, but how do you justify this opinion with your signature of "I love the Blackhawks"? The NHL has been MUCH worse in this regard to the fans than baseball ever was!

Not trying to start nuttin' or nuttin', just sayin' I don't see the logic . . . or rather, I do see a logical inconsistency here.

[Blueface]

Interesting article in today's USA Today.

http://usat.ly/14FHL1F

[gorob23]

That's all well and good, Rob, but how do you justify this opinion with your signature of "I love the Blackhawks"?

Not trying to start nuttin' or nuttin', just sayin' I don't see the logic . . . or rather, I do see a logical inconsistency here.

Sir Poet,
If a man dwells on the past, then he robs the present. But if a man ignores the past, he may rob the future. The seeds of our destiny are nurtured by the roots of our past.

Rob :tf

[Blueface]

As The World Turns, General Hospital, heck, even Dark Shadows don't come close to this soap opera.

http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2013-08-17/alex-rodriguez-randy-levine-new-york-yankees-peds-lawyer-tacopina?ncid=mobileapp1

[pnoon]

Ryan Dempster's a low-life thug and should have been tossed.
I'm no fan of A-Rod but Dempster's and the Red Sox are classless.

[Blueface]

Helps explain why w know little about the evidence but seems like a good offer by MLB calling attorneys bluff.
http://usat.ly/161cIh4

[The Poet]

Sir Poet,
If a man dwells on the past, then he robs the present. But if a man ignores the past, he may rob the future. The seeds of our destiny are nurtured by the roots of our past.

Rob :tf


:confused:

OK, whatever, but what about the answer to my question? :r

[icehog3]

What's NOT to love about the Blackhawks?!

[kelmac07]

What's NOT to love about the Blackhawks?!

Sure as hell beats hearing about A-Roid every ten minutes.

[icehog3]

Sure as hell beats hearing about A-Roid every ten minutes.

:lr :tu

[Starscream]

Sure as hell beats hearing about A-Roid every ten minutes.

:tu

[The Poet]

Sure as hell beats hearing about A-Roid every ten minutes.

I hear ya, Mac.


Still, that begs the question: If one is tired of hearing about this, one should maybe consider stop talking about it first. :D

Just :2 , and worth every penny.

[kelmac07]

I hear ya Thomas, but every time I turn on ESPN or MLB Network...it's something about him and what he's done/or won't do. :bh :bh

He (any many others included) have turned the game I love into a carnival.

[The Poet]

Hey, think about ME for a second, who lives about a howitzer shot from The Bronx! :r

I also live a pistol shot from the Jets training facility, and had to deal with Tebowmania LAST year. :D

[kelmac07]

I feel your pain brother. :D

[The Poet]

I feel your pain brother. :D


No biggie, brother. I haven't liked A-Rod since he dissed his "buddy" Jeter in SI 'way back when. And I haven't liked the Jets since Namath put on pantyhose and a fur coat. :r

[gorob23]

Namath put on pantyhose and a fur coat. :r

:r I remember that, that's about the time I figured out I kinda liked him .. Go Figure ;s

Rob :tu

[The Poet]

:r I remember that, that's about the time I figured out I kinda liked him .. Go Figure ;s

Rob :tu


Hey, different strokes for different folks, Rob.


Not that there's anything WRONG with that. ;)

[gorob23]

Hey, different strokes for different folks, Rob.


Not that there's anything WRONG with that. ;)



"The man who has confidence in himself gains the confidence of others".
Hasidic Saying

Rob ;)