Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?

[jjirons69]

It's in discussion, but it seems the NCAA is waiting to see what punishment Penn State gives itself. The NCAA is not big on the death penalty because it can be quite a crippler, but the Sandusky coverup may make them move on it. If Penn State ends up punishing itself pretty extensively, the NCAA may say it's punishment enough. Looks like they're waiting on each other.

I say they meant to cover up what they could in an effort not to hurt the program, thus losing millions and millions in revenue and highly-praised recruits. They would not have overlooked the same actions by a chem lab teaching assistant. He'd been out on his azz.

[jonumberone]

I'm not in favor of any punishment for Penn State!
While it was a heinous crime, and the cover-up is reprehensible, those involved are no longer involved with the program.
Punishing Penn State football will only hurt the students and slow the rebuilding of a program, that is desperate to heal.

[The Poet]

I am not one of those people who have a problem with the "abuse of power" critics of the NCAA are fond of citing, though I do confess I found their recent slamming of CalTech's athletic programs to be ludicrous. And there is no doubt the heinous abuses Sandusky performed far outweigh any the NCAA could perform, nor do I argue the point Jamie makes regarding a possible cover-up attempt in State College. That being said, I do question if this issue lays outside the purview of the NCAA. Shoot, they don't even have a policy regarding criminal activities by athletes such as drug use or DWIs, so how can they take a stand on this?

I'm not saying they shouldn't, and I would have no complaint if they did impose a death penalty . . . still, I wonder at their authority to do so.

[CigarNut]

I'm not in favor of any punishment for Penn State!
While it was a heinous crime, and the cover-up is reprehensible, those involved are no longer involved with the program.
Punishing Penn State football will only hurt the students and slow the rebuilding of a program, that is desperate to heal.:tpd:

This is a civil matter, not an NCAA matter and the civil authorities are pursuing and prosecuting as they should. The NCAA should stick to sports. Just my :2

[E.J.]

I don't have a strong opinion either way, though for those saying "no" related to the NCAA overstepping their bounds, what about "lack of institutional control"? To me, this seems to fit that bill perfectly.....

IMO, this is not just a civil matter, it is something that needs to be looked at by the NCAA We are talking about those in power at an institution covering up the worst of crimes, for years and years of ongoing abuse, to keep their clean reputation money making machine running.

For the record, I'd rather see the NCAA allow athletes get new cars and envelopes of cash as opposed to letting coaches, and friends of the program, rape kids and have it covered up as to not tarnish the illusion created....

[E.J.]

Oh and just to be clear, I think Penn State does need to feel this with some sort of sanctions. I don't have a strong opinion as far as them getting the Death Penalty, but yes....as an institution, they lost control and that needs to be addressed. It is unfortunate that when this stuff happens(sanctions), it usually hurts those that had no involvement....but that is the way the ball bounces with this stuff....

[Stephen]

The NCAA needs to get involved with this about as much as Congress needed to hold hearings on steroids in MLB...:2

[E.J.]

The NCAA needs to get involved with this about as much as Congress needed to hold hearings on steroids in MLB...:2

So an NCAA institution that broke laws to cover their asses & reputation, shouldn't be addressed by their governing body..hummmmm:rolleyes:

[oooo35980]

I believe they should be punished as an example to others, they did all this covering up to protect the program, for the NCAA to do nothing would amount to "Meh, as long as you didn't cheat it isn't our problem". With something this huge the pressure has to be on them to do something anyway, I don't think Penn State will be getting out of this alive.

[Stephen]

So an NCAA institution that broke laws to cover their asses & reputation, shouldn't be addressed by their governing body..hummmmm:rolleyes:
Because the issue at hand has zilch to do with athletics or collegiate athletes that are governed by the NCAA. Concealing evidence in a criminal investigation, however heinous the crime(s), doesn't give them jurisdiction (because none of their bylaws were violated). This is a lynch mob out for blood. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Subvet642]

I don't have a strong opinion either way, though for those saying "no" related to the NCAA overstepping their bounds, what about "lack of institutional control"? To me, this seems to fit that bill perfectly.....

IMO, this is not just a civil matter, it is something that needs to be looked at by the NCAA We are talking about those in power at an institution covering up the worst of crimes, for years and years of ongoing abuse, to keep their clean reputation money making machine running.

For the record, I'd rather see the NCAA allow athletes get new cars and envelopes of cash as opposed to letting coaches, and friends of the program, rape kids and have it covered up as to not tarnish the illusion created....

I'm with you, but I'd go a step further; kill the whole damned school, revoke their charter, pull all their grants. That place was Hell for, what, 14 years? How many children were tortured there? Screw the damned school! The institution, by it's acquiescence, permitted it to happen and therefore the whole institution should be held accountable. The survival of Penn State isn't worth one second of the pain, horror and misery those children went through, and to suggest that it's unfair to the professors, staff and students to close it down, I think that would be akin keeping the Nazi death camps open because the guards need the jobs. :2

[smitty81]

I'm not in favor of any punishment for Penn State!
While it was a heinous crime, and the cover-up is reprehensible, those involved are no longer involved with the program.
Punishing Penn State football will only hurt the students and slow the rebuilding of a program, that is desperate to heal.

:tpd:

This is a civil matter, not an NCAA matter and the civil authorities are pursuing and prosecuting as they should. The NCAA should stick to sports. Just my :2

The coaches and players represent the team and university with their actions. They are always in the spotlight.

What your saying is like saying if a football player got caught selling drugs, let the court handle it, there should be no punishment from the NCAA.

I'm sorry, but I disagree.

When you are a player or coach, you agree to abide by the rules and set a good example. When you mess up, your going to have to pay for the consequences.

If this happened with professors at Penn state, there would be no NCAA punishment as they are not affiliated with sports obviously.

The NCAA is the government of the athletic student body and coaching staff. If someone messes up, it's their job to take correct actions if necessary.


This sort of thing happens all the time with players. They get a DUI or in a fight or drugs charges. They obviously have court but often, if the coaches don't deal with it like they should, the NCAA will step in with a proper punishment.

I would be curious to see if the players have to sign any sort of contract once they star playing any NCAA sports basically saying that they accept the NCAA as their governing system and they agree to this and that................yadda yadda yadda.

[jonumberone]

I believe they should be punished as an example to others,



If you lack the moral character to make the right decision by yourself, will a possible penalty from the NCAA really matter?


The people involved are gone.
All the Coaches are gone.
The AD is gone as well as his assistants.
The school President is gone.
Exactly who do you want to punish?

If you want to ban the above people from ever being involved in any NCAA activity, fine.
But what is left of Penn State, wasn't involved.

[smitty81]

Because the issue at hand has zilch to do with athletics or collegiate athletes that are governed by the NCAA. Concealing evidence in a criminal investigation, however heinous the crime(s), doesn't give them jurisdiction (because none of their bylaws were violated). This is a lynch mob out for blood. Nothing more, nothing less.

Are you kidding?

It has a LOT to do with the College athletics (NCAA).

A LOT of this happened ON campus in the LOCKER ROOM. The coaches covered it up so it wouldn't hurt their football program.

Sure, the NCAA doesn't have the authority to take legal actions like the court system but they have their own set of laws and rules that you have to agree to if you are going to be affiliated. Thats just how it is and it's always been that way.

I think your a little off track here.

I am no lynch mob, I believe in fair punishment in the court system and on the NCAA side of things. My opinion is an unbiased opinion.

[smitty81]

If you lack the moral character to make the right decision by yourself, will a possible penalty from the NCAA really matter?


The people involved are gone.
All the Coaches are gone.
The AD is gone as well as his assistants.
The school President is gone.
Exactly who do you want to punish?

If you want to ban the above people from ever being involved in any NCAA activity, fine.
But what is left of Penn State, wasn't involved.

This is a good point here. Your punishing Students and people that have nothing to do with this.

I don't know, I have mixed feelings about a punishment on the team.

[jonumberone]

The coaches and players represent the team and university with their actions. They are always in the spotlight.

What your saying is like saying if a football player got caught selling drugs, let the court handle it, there should be no punishment from the NCAA.

If a player get's caught selling drugs, the Player is punished

I'm sorry, but I disagree.

When you are a player or coach, you agree to abide by the rules and set a good example. When you mess up, your going to have to pay for the consequences.

I am all for punishing the men involved in this!

If this happened with professors at Penn state, there would be no NCAA punishment as they are not affiliated with sports obviously.

The NCAA is the government of the athletic student body and coaching staff. If someone messes up, it's their job to take correct actions if necessary.

The Penn State Trustee's have taken action by removing everyone involved


This sort of thing happens all the time with players. They get a DUI or in a fight or drugs charges. They obviously have court but often, if the coaches don't deal with it like they should, the NCAA will step in with a proper punishment.

I would be curious to see if the players have to sign any sort of contract once they star playing any NCAA sports basically saying that they accept the NCAA as their governing system and they agree to this and that................yadda yadda yadda.

My response in red

[smitty81]

My response in red

I think we are probably on the same page......

[14holestogie]

Death penalty? No, but some sanctions are in order. No bowls for a couple seasons, the loss of a few scholarships and the like would be the usual fate.
Like it has been said, the main parties have all been removed and punished, but the school still is culpable to the NCAA. :2

[King James]

The problem with giving Penn State the death penalty is that there technically were no NCAA rules on the books that were violated, and rule violations are required in order to give the death penalty for a lack of institutional control. It will be interesting to see if the NCAA concocts a reason, and what kind of precedent that would set for handing out NCAA sanctions regarding criminal activity within an athletic program

[E.J.]

Stephen, Josh pretty much covered why it is a football issue...it is clear that this is more than just some criminal happening, it was enmeshed within the football program....if you cannot see that, well......we can agree to disagree.

Dom, like I stated previously, punishing the school is just how this stuff is done. Same thing with any violations. I am all in favor of the NCAA tagging coaches/administrators like they did with Sweater Vest, but the school as an institution needs to be held accountable as well. It is unfortunate that there is collateral damage, but it is just how it goes. You cannot just say, everyone is gone, let's move forward....

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

I'm with you, but I'd go a step further; kill the whole damned school, revoke their charter, pull all their grants. That place was Hell for, what, 14 years? How many children were tortured there? Screw the damned school! The institution, by it's acquiescence, permitted it to happen and therefore the whole institution should be held accountable. The survival of Penn State isn't worth one second of the pain, horror and misery those children went through, and to suggest that it's unfair to the professors, staff and students to close it down, I think that would be akin keeping the Nazi death camps open because the guards need the jobs. :2

:tpd:

I'm in favor of litigating the hell out Penn State and their employees. Should the ncaa not be held liable as well? I don't follow college sports or know really how the ncaa is structured as a governing body.. maybe someone can tell me why the ncaa is clear from all liability?

[Dave128]

If you lack the moral character to make the right decision by yourself, will a possible penalty from the NCAA really matter?


The people involved are gone.
All the Coaches are gone.
The AD is gone as well as his assistants.
The school President is gone.
Exactly who do you want to punish?

If you want to ban the above people from ever being involved in any NCAA activity, fine.
But what is left of Penn State, wasn't involved.

This should do the trick, along with ripping down Paterno's statue. The rest of the school, as long as there hasn't been found that it has any further involvement, should be left as is. The current and incoming student body will ultimately decide the fate of the school with their collective pocket books (i.e I wouldn't send my kid there).

[MrWolf55]

This should do the trick, along with ripping down Paterno's statue. The rest of the school, as long as there hasn't been found that it has any further involvement, should be left as is. The current and incoming student body will ultimately decide the fate of the school with their collective pocket books (i.e I wouldn't send my kid there).

+1

I'm in this camp personally. Everyone who was involved in the incident is gone, and I think to shut down the program would just involve too much collateral damage. Equipment mangers, medical staff, ticket sales people, Radio & TV guys - they're all out of a job even though they had nothing to do with the scandal. But I think the people it hurts the most are the athletes, who really had nothing to do with the decisions their coaches were making. I think they'll be the ones punished the most in the long run if the ax comes down on the program.

[Stephen]

I'm with you, but I'd go a step further; kill the whole damned school, revoke their charter, pull all their grants. That place was Hell for, what, 14 years? How many children were tortured there? Screw the damned school! The institution, by it's acquiescence, permitted it to happen and therefore the whole institution should be held accountable. The survival of Penn State isn't worth one second of the pain, horror and misery those children went through, and to suggest that it's unfair to the professors, staff and students to close it down, I think that would be akin keeping the Nazi death camps open because the guards need the jobs. :2
And Godwin's Law rules the day...

[Stephen]

If you lack the moral character to make the right decision by yourself, will a possible penalty from the NCAA really matter?


The people involved are gone.
All the Coaches are gone.
The AD is gone as well as his assistants.
The school President is gone.
Exactly who do you want to punish?

If you want to ban the above people from ever being involved in any NCAA activity, fine.
But what is left of Penn State, wasn't involved.
This.

[Stephen]

The NCAA is the government of the athletic student body and coaching staff. If someone messes up, it's their job to take correct actions if necessary.
No, they're a non-profit charter organization that exists to regulate intercollegiate competition.

[Stephen]

The problem with giving Penn State the death penalty is that there technically were no NCAA rules on the books that were violated, and rule violations are required in order to give the death penalty for a lack of institutional control. It will be interesting to see if the NCAA concocts a reason, and what kind of precedent that would set for handing out NCAA sanctions regarding criminal activity within an athletic program
Which is my point. There were no NCAA infractions. If they do take action it'll be unprecedented.

[E.J.]

If they do take action it'll be unprecedented.

As is what they are dealing with.....

[dave]

But what is left of Penn State, wasn't involved.

Involved? In what? The rapes and the coverups? Maybe not. But many were involved in the insane rallys/riots in support of JoePa when everyone in the country outside of Happy Valley was already either uneasy or queasy about him? Many (All?) of those you're hoping to shield from harm benefited from and/or were supported by the cover-up and lack of accountability in the institution and protection of the football program.

Penn State IS football to an awful lot of people - inside and outside that community. I would have no issue with a death penalty - or any other penalty that deprives Penn State of its football program for years.

[dave]

Which is my point. There were no NCAA infractions. If they do take action it'll be unprecedented.

Total lack of institutional control should more than cover it. I, for one, don't think that the NCAA rules book needs to specifically prohibit university coaches from raping little boys in football facility showers and covering it up.

[Stephen]

As is what they are dealing with.....
Not really. Unless you're willing to believe that no university has covered up criminal activity within their athletics department before. And if that's the case, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale...

[E.J.]

Total lack of institutional control should more than cover it. I, for one, don't think that the NCAA rules book needs to specifically prohibit university coaches from raping little boys in football facility showers and covering it up.

Pretty much sums it up............

[Stephen]

Total lack of institutional control should more than cover it. I, for one, don't think that the NCAA rules book needs to specifically prohibit university coaches from raping little boys in football facility showers and covering it up.
And that's what law enforcement is for.

[Stephen]

Involved? In what? The rapes and the coverups? Maybe not. But many were involved in the insane rallys/riots in support of JoePa when everyone in the country outside of Happy Valley was already either uneasy or queasy about him? Many (All?) of those you're hoping to shield from harm benefited from and/or were supported by the cover-up and lack of accountability in the institution and protection of the football program.

Penn State IS football to an awful lot of people - inside and outside that community. I would have no issue with a death penalty - or any other penalty that deprives Penn State of its football program for years.
So what you want is vengeance, not justice. Gotcha...

[E.J.]

Not really. Unless you're willing to believe that no university has covered up criminal activity within their athletics department before. And if that's the case, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale...


You have lost your mind......... If you don't think this is a different level of anything we have heard within an instititution.....again, we can just agree to disagree.... (I'm actually shaking my head is I type....unbelievable....)

[Stephen]

You have lost your mind......... If you don't think this is a different level of anything we have heard within an instititution.....again, we can just agree to disagree.... (I'm actually shaking my head is I type....unbelievable....)
I'm amazed you're able to type at all, what with the pitchfork in one hand and a torch in the other.

[E.J.]

But, for the record, I think that if the NCAA found out that an institution was covering up major illegal activity within a sports program, bet your ass they'd step in....and I'd expect them to.

....and I think you'll find that they do in this instance as well.... Which is the exact reason PSU is trying to figure out how to get ahead of the curve as I type....

[E.J.]

I'm amazed you're able to type at all, what with the pitchfork in one hand and a torch in the other.

Pitchfork & torch.......:confused: What punishment have I ask for that you think is unreasonable?

Oh.....any..... See, that is where you and I are on different sides. I think the NCAA has to do something in this situation and you feel like they should do nothing.... But pitchfork and torch.....:r

[King James]

Involved? In what? The rapes and the coverups? Maybe not. But many were involved in the insane rallys/riots in support of JoePa when everyone in the country outside of Happy Valley was already either uneasy or queasy about him? Many (All?) of those you're hoping to shield from harm benefited from and/or were supported by the cover-up and lack of accountability in the institution and protection of the football program.

Penn State IS football to an awful lot of people - inside and outside that community. I would have no issue with a death penalty - or any other penalty that deprives Penn State of its football program for years.

You are suggesting that the community should be punished for supporting Paterno when the available evidence at that time was that Paterno reported the info about Sandusky to his superiors but didn't do more when he should have? There was no evidence at that point that he actively tried to cover it up.

Or you are suggesting that the entire Penn State community should now be punished because they benefitted from a program that covered up the heinous acts of Sandusky? Heinous acts that they in no way knew of.

Plus, none of this changes the fact that in order to issue the death penalty, there is supposed to be an actual violation of an NCAA rule.

I'm all for punishing the people involved. Take away the schools victories since 1998 so that Paterno is no longer the winningest coach, make his family pay back the 5 million retirement package, tear down the statute, make the university pay out their ass in civil court. I can't, however, support retroactively punishing the football program when all active parties are no longer there to suffer from the punishments.

[King James]

Total lack of institutional control should more than cover it. I, for one, don't think that the NCAA rules book needs to specifically prohibit university coaches from raping little boys in football facility showers and covering it up.

Again, total lack of institutional control only applies to the lack of control of following NCAA rules

[E.J.]

But back to that post.... So Stephen, you'd agree that this is cover-up of criminal behavior(which is actually criminal in this case) on a level when have never heard of before, within a sports program/institution....or you think this stuff is happening with irregularity within the NCAA? I think the word we'll use....unprecedented.

[jonumberone]

Involved? In what? The rapes and the coverups? Maybe not. But many were involved in the insane rallys/riots in support of JoePa when everyone in the country outside of Happy Valley was already either uneasy or queasy about him? Many (All?) of those you're hoping to shield from harm benefited from and/or were supported by the cover-up and lack of accountability in the institution and protection of the football program.

Penn State IS football to an awful lot of people - inside and outside that community. I would have no issue with a death penalty - or any other penalty that deprives Penn State of its football program for years.

You're right, Dave.
I can't think of any other instances where college kids organized and rioted for a cause in which they didn't have all the facts,
and made rushes in judgement based upon what their friends were doing, and word of mouth around the campus. :rolleyes:

Let's run through some other scenarios

A coach is at home, get's drunk, and slaps his wife around.
A coach is involved in a deadly auto accident, in which he caused by speeding
A coach is arrested for DUI

Should any of these crimes cause a school to lose it's sports program? Why?

I understand that what happened is awful, and I get why people are upset, I just don't see where this is an NCAA issue.

Also, after the Cathedral, Capitol, Pyramid, institution, insert your own metaphor for power, is toppled, I don't see the point in pissing on the rubble!

[E.J.]

A coach is at home, get's drunk, and slaps his wife around.
A coach is involved in a deadly auto accident, in which he caused by speeding
A coach is arrested for DUI

Should any of these crimes cause a school to lose it's sports program? Why?



Your metaphor is too far apart from what happened....

A coach is a serial killer for years and years and the administration covers it up.... Yea, the NCAA needs to do something....

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Just a little confused here.. So the Penn State Football program that allowed the rape of young boys in Penn State showers didn't break any ncaa rules?

[jonumberone]

Your metaphor is too far apart from what happened....

A coach is a serial killer for years and years and the administration covers it up.... Yea, the NCAA needs to do something....

Why?
Assuming the Murders have come to light, as has the cover-up, where all involved in the crimes are being prosecuted by the law, Why does the NCAA need to do something?
If the NCAA acts who are they punishing?

To elaborate on your point.
If a Vice president of Goldman Sachs is a serial killer, and the CEO covers it up, does Goldman have to go out of business?
Should the S.E.C. get involved?
Or would the crime of murder and the cover-up be handled by the F.B.I. and the courts?

[King James]

Just a little confused here.. So the Penn State Football program that allowed the rape of young boys in Penn State showers didn't break any ncaa rules?

Breaking the law and breaking NCAA rules are two different things. So no, what Sandusky did, and what the university covered up, did not actually violate any NCAA rule.

If Sandusky violated NCAA rules and the university covered up those violations, then there would be a very strong case for lack of institutional control

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Breaking the law and breaking NCAA rules are two different things. So no, what Sandusky did, and what the university covered up, did not actually violate any NCAA rule.

If Sandusky violated NCAA rules and the university covered up those violations, then there would be a very strong case for lack of institutional control

Ok I see. I don't follow any ncaa sports, so know nothing of what the ncaa is responsible for. It does makes sense to me though that if your Football program allows rape, maybe you shouldn't be allowed to play ncaa football:r

[E.J.]

Why?
Assuming the Murders have come to light, as has the cover-up, where all involved in the crimes are being prosecuted by the law, Why does the NCAA need to do something?
If the NCAA acts who are they punishing?

To elaborate on your point.
If a Vice president of Goldman Sachs is a serial killer, and the CEO covers it up, does Goldman have to go out of business?
Should the S.E.C. get involved?
Or would the crime of murder and the cover-up be handled by the F.B.I. and the courts?

They are punishing the institution and athletic team for covering up crime within the athletic department/institution. Not only covering up crime, but committing crime at the same time. They do this to prevent dishonor to their program.

I think the NCAA needs to do something because they are who govern the institutions. The law is not going to charge the name/institution Penn State University with a crime, but IMO that name/institution let it happen, it needs to be addressed(I actually believe that will happen and again, why PSU is trying to get ahead of the curve here).

Why would the Southeastern Conference address anything with Goldman Sachs?;) I have to admit that I am ignorant as to the SEC and what they would do in that situation..... I cannot comment on that analogy....

Dom, are you a Penn State fan or just taking that stand?

[King James]

I think the NCAA needs to do something because they are who govern the institutions. The law is not going to charge the name/institution Penn State University with a crime, but IMO that name/institution let it happen, it needs to be addressed(I actually believe that will happen and again, why PSU is trying to get ahead of the curve here).


You better believe the law is going to charge Penn State University in civil court. They are going to get hammered in punitive damages. A university can be a party in a suit just like a company can.

And the NCAA only governs the institutions as far as the NCAA rules go.

[jjirons69]

After reading about all the stuff SMU did to get the death penalty handed to them, it seems very unlikely the NCAA will evoke it here. It seems you have to continually screw up even after you're caught once or twice.

SMU Death Pentalty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Methodist_University_football_scandal)

I seriously think if PS comes out and denies itself scholarships/bowls games/etc., this will please the NCAA and they will find just punishment. SMU tried it, but they were way beyond we'll go to bed without supper when they tried to right the ship. Seems everyone at SMU had a hand in the corruption and the NCAA had to clear the slate and start them over. PS's "corruption" is more localized and now cleared from the picture. PS is a MUCH bigger entity and the ramifications of the death penalty would/could also damage the NCAA's money making system (which they don't really want).

[VTDragon]

The fact that Sandusky was able to continue his reprehensible acts for years after they first came to the attention of Penn State officials indicates an institutional desire to minimize damage to the allmighty football program to the detriment of the abused children. Based upon what I hear and see coming from Happy Valley these days,(eg.: alumni donations are actually up since the scandal came to light), that attitude -the desire to minimize damage to the football program- has not changed. For this reason alone, I vote for the death penalty. I would allow all current football players to transfer to another program without penalty, but for a minimum of four years there should be no football at Penn State. Yes, lots of people will be hurt and dissapointed by this. Too bad, lots of kids had their very lives ruined by this poor excuse for a human being and until the institution that allowed it to continue suffers some real penalty there is no reason to think that almighty football won't continue to do as it pleases in Happy Valley, to the detriment of whomever gets in its' way.

[shilala]

Just a little confused here.. So the Penn State Football program that allowed the rape of young boys in Penn State showers didn't break any ncaa rules?
No, technically they didn't. It's unprecedented, and there are no ncaa rules that say a football organization can't cover up child rape, or allow it, for that matter.
To me, this is kind of picking nits. On one hand, there are no ncaa rules, but to any living human being it's obvious that the spirit is there in ncaa rules under "total lack of control". Penn State has never had control of the football program, ever. Remember when they wanted to fire JoPa? (Late 80's?, early 90's?) He said no and he stayed on for lots more years. That does not remotely smell like the school had control, at least not to me. The NCAA did nothing then.

The question is really whether or not the ncaa should or needs to take action, or if it's beyond their hand, or if the law should handle it, as has already been done.
If they give the football program the death penalty, they gutshoot a major cash cow that could, if so managed, funnel a lot of money into programs for victims of violence, etc.
Penn State has already commissioned the Freeh report to the tune of over 6 million dollars to prove their guilt, and it appears they plan to do everything in their power to right this situation, not that all the money in the world can right it. (Insurance will cover victim lawsuits, but I want to see what they actually DO to make right.)
Everyone involved in this whole deal is gone, dead, in jail or headed for jail.
Dom made an excellent point, what sense is there in pissing on the rubble?

If anyone doesn't think Penn State Football has already been handed the death penalty, they're sadly mistaken. The whole school has been handed the death penalty. Paterno's legacy is shot. The entire school will carry this shame for decades. The odds of the football program ever gathering any real football talent in my lifetime is impossible. The alumni can't say where they went to school without someone looking at them with contempt, as if they had something to do with it. That's your standard "string them up" mob mentality at play. It's doing it's job persecuting the innocent as we speak, so there's solace there, vengeance is being served.

I took up for JoePa when this all came out the first go around, I truly believed he couldn't have possibly played a part in sweeping all this under the rug and that Spanier was behind it. I can remember when Spanier took the helm way back when, thinking he looked like a weasel. He turned out worse than I imagined. The fact that JoePa took part in covering for Sandusky so that his football program wouldn't suffer just absolutely makes me sick. More sad than sick, but sick nonetheless.
All the good that Joe did for so many years, all the people he loved and helped, all the devotion and time, all shot in the ass over an astronomically bad judgement call.
I've always considered how my life can change completely in a split second, the time it takes to pull a trigger. Joe pulled the trigger and changed many, many lives with this move.

Back to the NCAA and the death penalty for the football program...
Can someone explain the positive aspect of shutting down the program for me? I mean, I get the vengeance thing. Paterno's family is ruined, the campus and alum are scarred, everyone involved are locked up or will be soon. An untold number of people have already suffered as a result of these crimes, along with the victims. Where's the benefit? Who feels better? The kids who were raped? I'd think they'd want the people involved to answer for the crime perpetuated against them, not for completely unrelated people to suffer. Granted, I've not walked in their shoes, but that doesn't quite add up.

[Stephen]

Pitchfork & torch.......:confused: What punishment have I ask for that you think is unreasonable?
Because I'm of the opinion of what you're wanting isn't/shouldn't fall under NCAA authority. Again, it isn't justice; it's vengeance you seek.
Oh.....any..... See, that is where you and I are on different sides. I think the NCAA has to do something in this situation and you feel like they should do nothing.... But pitchfork and torch.....:r
It's not that I feel like they should do nothing. I feel they shouldn't have the authority in the first place.

Make no mistake, what happened at Penn State turns my stomach. But this is a can of worms that shouldn't be opened.

[King James]

(Insurance will cover victim lawsuits, but I want to see what they actually DO to make right.)

It is quite likely that insurance won't cover Penn State in this case. It will come down to policy language, but it is quite likely that what they pay will be out of pocket. That is not to say that costs won't be passed on to others in the form of increased tuition, fees, etc., but I'd be surprised if the insurance companies give any $$

[Subvet642]

And Godwin's Law rules the day...

I, generally, try to avoid such comparisons, but I couldn't think of one that better conveys the terror and despair those children must have felt, as well as the institutional hubris on PSU's part. I work at pediatric hospital in Boston (I'm sure you know which one), and I've seen the aftermath of child abuse and rape. It's ugly; as ugly as anything you could imagine. Did I invoke Godwin's Law? Yes, I did, but I did so with good cause.

[shilala]

The fact that Sandusky was able to continue his reprehensible acts for years after they first came to the attention of Penn State officials indicates an institutional desire to minimize damage to the allmighty football program to the detriment of the abused children. Based upon what I hear and see coming from Happy Valley these days,(eg.: alumni donations are actually up since the scandal came to light), that attitude -the desire to minimize damage to the football program- has not changed. For this reason alone, I vote for the death penalty. I would allow all current football players to transfer to another program without penalty, but for a minimum of four years there should be no football at Penn State. Yes, lots of people will be hurt and dissapointed by this. Too bad, lots of kids had their very lives ruined by this poor excuse for a human being and until the institution that allowed it to continue suffers some real penalty there is no reason to think that almighty football won't continue to do as it pleases in Happy Valley, to the detriment of whomever gets in its' way.
See, that's the unthinking, unbridled justice that's really the problem in this whole thing. You don't think those young men, who had nothing to do with this, and are set apart by YEARS from the infractions wouldn't suffer?
Did you consider that many would not even be able to play football at other schools, not be able to play this coming year, that their families could not afford such a "no penalty" move?
Who willl foot the bill for hauling all their furniture and stuff from PSU to the imaginary school they're being transferred to, provided they could even find a spot?
I'm not picking on you, brother. I just want people to think about the people we're affecting when we spout solutions like "let's just move the kids to another program".
Why in God's name should yet more people have to suffer? What exactly did these kids do that they should be punished?
What about all the men and women who make a living from that program? What about their kids? Who feeds them, and where do they go?

Here's the odd thing...
I actually agree with you, on some level. If PS Football could be erased without hundreds of innocents suffering, I'd be all over it. Just because JoePa is gone, I can't believe that 60 years of his way of thinking don't linger, and that worries the hell out of me.

[King James]

I, generally, try to avoid such comparisons, but I couldn't think of one that better conveys the terror and despair those children must have felt, as well as the institutional hubris on PSU's part. I work at pediatric hospital in Boston (I'm sure you know which one), and I've seen the aftermath of child abuse and rape. It's ugly; as ugly as anything you could imagine. Did I invoke Godwin's Law? Yes, I did, but I did so with good cause.

I don't think there is any disagreement to how disgusting, wrong, and inexcusable the acts of Sandusky and cover-up by Penn State are. The only dispute is to where justice should be served, in the courts or by sanctions from the NCAA. I would hate for anyone to view my disagreement with the death penalty as indicating at all some kind of defense of Penn State in this situation

[E.J.]

Because I'm of the opinion of what you're wanting isn't/shouldn't fall under NCAA authority. Again, it isn't justice; it's vengeance you seek.

It's not that I feel like they should do nothing. I feel they shouldn't have the authority in the first place.

Make no mistake, what happened at Penn State turns my stomach. But this is a can of worms that shouldn't be opened.

No Stephen, I don't want vengance... Truth be told, I could not care less about what happens to Penn State. If they are sanctioned by the NCAA or not, it will not change my life in the least.

I'm just stating an opinion of what I think should happen... If it does or doesn't, who cares?:sh


Jim, I think the NCAA will do what they want in this situation, regardless if there is an actual rules violation. They are on new ground and I think will try to do what they think is appropriate....maybe that will be being satisfied with whatever PSU does to themselves.

[shilala]

It is quite likely that insurance won't cover Penn State in this case. It will come down to policy language, but it is quite likely that what they pay will be out of pocket. That is not to say that costs won't be passed on to others in the form of increased tuition, fees, etc., but I'd be surprised if the insurance companies give any $$
They have multiple stacked policies. That wasn't a guess, that was words from Rodney Erickson.
You're right, though. The policy cost will be passed down, and they'll pay a lot more for insurance, but they're insulated from the lawsuits completely.

[King James]

They have multiple stacked policies. That wasn't a guess, that was words from Rodney Erickson.

Those policies don't have any language absolving the insurance companies from paying for intentional acts or when there was knowledge? Can you point me to where you saw that insurance will cover?

[VTDragon]

Just saw this article in USAToday http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-07-09/victim-1-sandusky-witness/56278226/1, the original victim was harrased so much by the residents of Happy Valley that he had to go into witness protection. This just reinforces my belief that the Death Penalty needs to be applied.

[shilala]

Those policies don't have any language absolving the insurance companies from paying for intentional acts or when there was knowledge? Can you point me to where you saw that insurance will cover?
I just read the article a few minutes ago, Jim. I went back to look for it and I can't find it, Sorry. (I actually found it as I was looking for what year PS asked Joe to step down as coach, if you want to Google it. It was dumb luck you mentioned it shortly thereafter. :))
Erickson also said the board called for an inquiry to make sure that they'll be covered in the future with adequate insurance now that all this has happened. That might prove a bit tougher.

[Stephen]

I don't think there is any disagreement to how disgusting, wrong, and inexcusable the acts of Sandusky and cover-up by Penn State are. The only dispute is to where justice should be served, in the courts or by sanctions from the NCAA. I would hate for anyone to view my disagreement with the death penalty as indicating at all some kind of defense of Penn State in this situation
:tpd:

[357]

Yes. If the NCAA can issue a death penalty for paying players or similar LEGAL rule infractions, how can they issue a lesser penalty for allowing these actions to continue in their facilities?

I think they should lose football altogether for 2-4 years and the BigTen should kick them out. AKA no TV revenue sharing.

[Stephen]

I, generally, try to avoid such comparisons, but I couldn't think of one that better conveys the terror and despair those children must have felt, as well as the institutional hubris on PSU's part. I work at pediatric hospital in Boston (I'm sure you know which one), and I've seen the aftermath of child abuse and rape. It's ugly; as ugly as anything you could imagine. Did I invoke Godwin's Law? Yes, I did, but I did so with good cause.
I had a response typed out, but my computer ate it. :(

The abridged version: I apologize if I come across as contrarian, and that even though my opinion is that the NCAA doesn't/shouldn't have jurisdiction, it also doesn't mean that I in no way am defending what transpired at Penn State.

Further, I could never do what you do because I'm a big softie that can't stand to see children in pain. :D

[King James]

I understand the blame for the football program because Sandusky's acts were covered up to protect the program and university. However, I think there is a distinction between (1) covering up criminal acts to protect the degradation of a program on the one hand, and (2) covering up NCAA violations to enhance the success of a program on the other.

[jonumberone]

Dom, are you a Penn State fan or just taking that stand?

I think this above question is what the whole debate is about.
Since the situation involves Collegiate athletics, a subject that evokes competitiveness between people,
logic and reason becomes obscured, even if it is done subconsciously.

If you apply the same exact circumstances to another business, you would not look to that businesses governing body to discipline them,
but rather the authorities and law to handle punishment.
If the same exact scenario played out on a dairy farm, would you expect the FDA to get involved?

If you tell the same exact story, but substitute "Penn State University" with "George Washington High School",
do you still feel the Board of Education should lock the doors or cancel the schools extra curricular activities?

To answer your question, NO I am not a fan of Penn State.
As a matter of fact, I could care less about any college sports.
I don't watch Bowl games, or March madness.
The last college game I watched was LSU v Alabama Pt.1
I found that game to be so boring that I didn't bother to watch the rematch.
I do know what the BCS is, I do know what the main conferences are, as well as most of the rivalries.

I honestly feel, I have no bias here.

[shilala]

I'm also sorry if I came across as contrary, it's certainly not my desire.
I just fail to see what the NCAA do that won't hurt people that don't deserve to get hurt. They're powerless unless they can somehow think of something that will help the victims, their families, and stop this from happening in the future.
If PSU and all their memory could be rubbed out without harming so many other kids and families along the way, I'd be right on board and leading the charge.
There's nothing anyone can do to even take the edge off this tragedy, or to assuage the agony of the kids and families Sandusky touched.

As with everything, there's always those things that go mostly unreported.
Sandusky's father hosted a sports boy's camp.
Sandusky hosted a boy's sports camp.
Sandusky molested his own adopted son, Matt.
It's not too tough to fill in the blank there, and I've listened to a lot of detail about this stuff via sports radio (which is nearly my every waking hour). I'm not trying to dredge up any sympathy for Sandusky, I'm suggesting that someone doesn't get that seriously sick and depraved by just being on the planet, and he was very likely taught his propensities, or tortured into them.
Maybe if people can focus their disgust and hatred, then nobody else needlessly gets hurt in the aftermath? I know it's a far stretch to not judge and to forgive in instances like this, and I'm failing miserably. Maybe the best I can do is focus on who's to blame and hope they don't get another chance to do harm.

[shilala]

I understand the blame for the football program because Sandusky's acts were covered up to protect the program and university. However, I think there is a distinction between (1) covering up criminal acts to protect the degradation of a program on the one hand, and (2) covering up NCAA violations to enhance the success of a program on the other.
That's a good point, and the NCAA is supposed to operate to ensure part #2, not #1.

[Blueface]

It is quite likely that insurance won't cover Penn State in this case. It will come down to policy language

Jim,
You are likely right.
Most, if not all liability policies exclude intentional acts.

[King James]

That's a good point, and the NCAA is supposed to operate to ensure part #2, not #1.

I think the key factor is, as the current NCAA rules are written, there were not any violations of NCAA rules. A requirement for the death penalty under lack of institutional control is that the lack of control is in regard to NCAA rules.

Therefore, unless the NCAA invents a reason, regardless of what anyone arguably thinks should be the penalty, the death penalty does not appear to be an available option.

[E.J.]

I think this above question is what the whole debate is about.
Since the situation involves Collegiate athletics, a subject that evokes competitiveness between people,
logic and reason becomes obscured, even if it is done subconsciously.

If you apply the same exact circumstances to another business, you would not look to that businesses governing body to discipline them,
but rather the authorities and law to handle punishment.
If the same exact scenario played out on a dairy farm, would you expect the FDA to get involved?

If you tell the same exact story, but substitute "Penn State University" with "George Washington High School",
do you still feel the Board of Education should lock the doors or cancel the schools extra curricular activities?

To answer your question, NO I am not a fan of Penn State.
As a matter of fact, I could care less about any college sports.
I don't watch Bowl games, or March madness.
The last college game I watched was LSU v Alabama Pt.1
I found that game to be so boring that I didn't bother to watch the rematch.
I do know what the BCS is, I do know what the main conferences are, as well as most of the rivalries.

I honestly feel, I have no bias here.

Thanks. Yes, it is just easier to know where you stand when discussing things when the parties are neutral so to speak. When someone has love/faith/emotion involved, sometimes discussing it does more harm than good.

As far as what I bolded above... YES!!!!! Not shut down the school, but the athletic program, YES, YES, YES. If the football coach at my local high school(he is a friend of mine), where I went to school and now my kids go to school, when I played, MY FOOTBALL PROGRAM...was involved in such a thing as this(long time cover-up with numerous administrators involved, all for the sake of keeping the programs image squeaky clean)....I would hope the Board of Education would show everyone in the community that kids are worth more than the program and shut the phucker down. Fire everyone and shut it down! IMO, the cover-up was because of football....

Would it happen, I don't know....probably MUCH, MUCH easier at the high school level.....but it is what I think should be done. Not forever, but for a time....yes. Would it effect the innocent, sure....but that is the way the cookie crumbles.

Note, I still am not saying that I think PSU should get the Death Penalty, I'm saying if that happened at my High School...what I think should happen.

[shilala]

I think the key factor is, as the current NCAA rules are written, there were not any violations of NCAA rules. A requirement for the death penalty under lack of institutional control is that the lack of control is in regard to NCAA rules.

Therefore, unless the NCAA invents a reason, regardless of what anyone arguably thinks should be the penalty, the death penalty does not appear to be an available option.
That's the way I see it, at least from what I understand.
James, I found one story about PSU's insurance (http://www.businessinsurance.com/article/20120701/NEWS06/307019983&template=mobileart), but not the one I initially read.
I read a number of others that were much like this one, and two of their insurers are covering other liability claims, maybe because they weren't didn't include the necessary wording to allow them to avoid it? They're trying to settle the claims quickly.
You guys are apparently onto something.

[357]

I understand the blame for the football program because Sandusky's acts were covered up to protect the program and university. However, I think there is a distinction between (1) covering up criminal acts to protect the degradation of a program on the one hand, and (2) covering up NCAA violations to enhance the success of a program on the other.

If PSU had stopped the criminal acts from happening right away, then covered them up you'd be right. However, they didn't. They may have eventually fired Sandusky, but they continued to allow him access to their facilities, where he continued to commit dozens of crimes over the next 13 years, and then covered those up as well.

Here's an article about the same thing:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/emmert-ncaa-institutional-control-issues-203023796--ncaaf.html
The primary matter for the NCAA is application of its own definition of a "lack of institutional control." If the NCAA can apply it to the alleged cover-up at Penn State, it could harshly penalize the football program and also hand down broad punishment across Penn State athletics.

Penn State's failure to act when presented opportunities to confront assistant coach Jerry Sandusky, from top administration to members of the footbal coaching staff including Joe Paterno, is critical to the NCAA review but bylaws don't contain specific language that would apply to this particular case.

FBI director Louis Freeh...said "The most powerful men at Penn State failed to take any steps for 14 years to protect the children who Sandusky victimized,"

As part of the investigation, Freeh's team unearthed email correspondence that shows Paterno not only knew of the 1998 investigation into Sandusky which he Paterno previously denied, but also portrayed Paterno as the most powerful figure in the group, advising Curley to abort a plan to file a report detailing the 2001 crime witnesses by assistant coach Mike McQueary to authorities.

I can't see arguing that the NCAA language doesn't specifically define covering up serial child rape as a rule violation. Rule breaking is bad. Covering up for a child predator is much worse, and the penalty should directly and proportionately reflect that.

[King James]

I'd guess a big reason of why they want to settle out of court quickly is to avoid the bad press from a trial. Not sure of the insurance reasons to do so.

Problem is, with the damning content of the Freeh report, Penn State likely has very little leverage. They can throw out numbers to the victims all they want, but it sure seems like the victims have all the power in the world because there isn't a jury out there that won't give them a huge some of money, and deservingly so.

[King James]

Covering up for a child predator is much worse, and the penalty should directly and proportionately reflect that.

Covering up for a child predator is terrible. But if a necessary element of giving out the death penalty is violation of an NCAA rule, then the penalty cannot be given out unless that element is fulfilled. So unless the NCAA creates some sort of reasoning, I don't see how it is a possible penalty

[357]

Covering up for a child predator is terrible. But if a necessary element of giving out the death penalty is violation of an NCAA rule, then the penalty cannot be given out unless that element is fulfilled. So unless the NCAA creates some sort of reasoning, I don't see how it is a possible penalty

It all depends on how they choose to define "lack of institutional control". One could argue that covering up felonies at the request of the football coach would constitute a lack of institutional control. I guess we'd have to know the exact language of that policy.

[jonumberone]

..I would hope the Board of Education would show everyone in the community that kids are worth more than the program and shut the phucker down. Fire everyone and shut it down! IMO, the cover-up was because of football....


I guess this is where we really disagree.
I agree that every one involved should be fired, prosecuted, and serve the maximum sentence.
After those that are involved are removed, what purpose does shutting down the program serve?
Is it fair to the students who had nothing to do with incidents to lose their programs?
If it is to lead by example, isn't a better example set, by returning a program to its glory,
using the principles that it was originally founded on?

IMO, the cover up wasn't because of football, it was because the Men in charge of football, lacked the moral character to do what's right,
and others lacked the conviction to challenge those in charge.
Neither of those reasons, is the fault of football.

[357]

I guess this is where we really disagree.
I agree that every one involved should be fired, prosecuted, and serve the maximum sentence.
After those that are involved are removed, what purpose does shutting down the program serve?
Is it fair to the students who had nothing to do with incidents to lose their programs?
If it is to lead by example, isn't a better example set, by returning a program to its glory,
using the principles that it was originally founded on?

IMO, the cover up wasn't because of football, it was because the Men in charge of football, lacked the moral character to do what's right,
and others lacked the conviction to challenge those in charge.
Neither of those reasons, is the fault of football.

Flip it around. Is it fair that the University continue to bank millions of dollars via a program that hid these atrocities just to protect that revenue stream? PSU allowed the coverup because football = $$$$. They feared losing that money so they ignored the monster preying on children. Why allow PSU to reap the benefits of the football program when clearly the money is what is most important to them?

[King James]

It all depends on how they choose to define "lack of institutional control". One could argue that covering up felonies at the request of the football coach would constitute a lack of institutional control. I guess we'd have to know the exact language of that policy.

the lack of control could be loosely defined, but you can't even get at that definition if there is no violation of an NCAA rule. The "lack of control" is in relation to NCAA rules, not just lack of control in general.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

I guess this is where we really disagree.
I agree that every one involved should be fired, prosecuted, and serve the maximum sentence.
After those that are involved are removed, what purpose does shutting down the program serve?
Is it fair to the students who had nothing to do with incidents to lose their programs?
If it is to lead by example, isn't a better example set, by returning a program to its glory,
using the principles that it was originally founded on?

IMO, the cover up wasn't because of football, it was because the Men in charge of football, lacked the moral character to do what's right,
and others lacked the conviction to challenge those in charge.
Neither of those reasons, is the fault of football.

Joe Paterno and Jerry Sandusky WERE the Penn State football program. Paterno ran it. The football program FAILED. IMO, football had everything to do with it. The Freeh report makes it irrefutable that Joe Paterno and top administration officials, aided and abetted the acts of a sexual predator solely because of football. Jerry raped boys in the large shadow that Paterno casted for MANY years..

[E.J.]

I guess this is where we really disagree.
I agree that every one involved should be fired, prosecuted, and serve the maximum sentence.
After those that are involved are removed, what purpose does shutting down the program serve?
Is it fair to the students who had nothing to do with incidents to lose their programs?
If it is to lead by example, isn't a better example set, by returning a program to its glory,
using the principles that it was originally founded on?

IMO, the cover up wasn't because of football, it was because the Men in charge of football, lacked the moral character to do what's right,
and others lacked the conviction to challenge those in charge.
Neither of those reasons, is the fault of football.

Shutting down an athletic program makes a very clear statement that life is not athletics, there are bigger things. If anyone tries to flip that, to make athletics bigger....there is a sure way to bring people around. Life is not fair.

The program has no glory.... It's foundation is 45 years of a coach that harbored a child rapist, many of said rapes, happening in that programs facilities. He knew that children were being abused and swept it under the rug for the sake of the glory of said program. This program has won 2 National Championships with a child rapist as their D Coordinator and had him on staff for 33ish years. They knew who he was and let him hang around.....you know, for the glory of the program. Joe Paterno = Penn State Football

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Shutting down an athletic program makes a very clear statement that life is not athletics, there are bigger things. If anyone tries to flip that, to make athletics bigger....there is a sure way to bring people around. Life is not fair.

The program has no glory.... It's foundation is 45 years of a coach that harbored a child rapist, many of said rapes, happening in that programs facilities. He knew that children were being abused and swept it under the rug for the sake of the glory of said program. This program has won 2 National Championships with a child rapist as their D Coordinator and had him on staff for 33ish years. They knew who he was and let him hang around.....you know, for the glory of the program. Joe Paterno = Penn State Football

Glory or MONEY.. take your pick:r

[Subvet642]

I had a response typed out, but my computer ate it. :(

The abridged version: I apologize if I come across as contrarian, and that even though my opinion is that the NCAA doesn't/shouldn't have jurisdiction, it also doesn't mean that I in no way am defending what transpired at Penn State.

Further, I could never do what you do because I'm a big softie that can't stand to see children in pain. :D

This is an emotional issue on many levels, but you said nothing wrong. I suppose you're right, in that the NCAA doesn't have jurisdiction, certainly not to do what I think should be done.

As for work, fortunately, I guard one of the research buildings, but if you're in the hospital, you see it. Our department also often guards the victims, as determined by medical staff, so we learn about the case histories, as well.

[jonumberone]

Shutting down an athletic program makes a very clear statement that life is not athletics, there are bigger things. If anyone tries to flip that, to make athletics bigger....there is a sure way to bring people around. Life is not fair.

The program has no glory.... It's foundation is 45 years of a coach that harbored a child rapist, many of said rapes, happening in that programs facilities. He knew that children were being abused and swept it under the rug for the sake of the glory of said program. This program has won 2 National Championships with a child rapist as their D Coordinator and had him on staff for 33ish years. They knew who he was and let him hang around.....you know, for the glory of the program. Joe Paterno = Penn State Football

Fair enough. :)

[The Poet]

Wow. This thread started off at a limp yesterday, but exploded after that. This alone has convinced me Penn State SHOULD get the death penalty for a few years, for if emotions are running this high, even with people who claim to care nothing about PSU, JoePa, college football, or even NCAA sports altogether, then a cooling-off period in State College is definitely a good idea.

[mash]

Those of you that are saying PSU didn't break any NCAA rules, are you sure?

I find it hard to believe there is nothing like a "morality clause" that athletes have in their contract, to govern their behaviour and give the owners an out.

I remember a lot of people castigating the PSU Board when this first came out because they fired Joe Paterno. I think it's pretty clear now why they did, they must have known how deep the cover up was, and how liable they were going to be.

I can't imagine how many tens of millions of dollars they are going to get hammered for in civil suits. The death penalty may not be their biggest worry.

[King James]

Those of you that are saying PSU didn't break any NCAA rules, are you sure?

As far as almost all the news stories I've read, that is the general consensus. I'm going to read through the rules this weekend to see if I see anything that looks like it may work, although I am in no way any kind of authority on NCAA rules.

However, it's still not above the NCAA to make something up. Many would view that as a good thing in this case, but in general I get bothered by their inconsistent enforcement of rules.

[smitty81]

I think this pretty well covers it.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.4 THE PRINCIPLE OF SPORTSMANSHIP AND ETHICAL CONDUCT

"For intercollegiate athletics to promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of higher education and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with these athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility, honesty and responsibility. These values should be manifest not only in athletics participation, but also in the broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program."

I've bolded the language at the end of this rule, because it is broad enough to allow NCAA action if the organization desired to act under the scope of this rule.

Was is ethical for Penn State coaches, athletic administrators and the president of the institution to cover up child sex abuse? Certainly these unethical acts would fall within "the broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program."

The NCAA could enforce penalties under this prong if it so desired.

10.01.1 Honesty and Sportsmanship.

"Individuals employed by (or associated with) a member institution to administer, conduct or coach intercollegiate athletics and all participating student-athletes shall act with honesty and sportsmanship at all times so that intercollegiate athletics as a whole, their institutions and they, as individuals, shall represent the honor and dignity of fair play and the generally recognized high standards associated with wholesome competitive sports."

Again, broad language that I believe the NCAA could cite in choosing to discipline Penn State. They key is that the language includes not just Paterno and other employees, but Sandusky as well. But here comes the provision that is an absolute slam dunk violation.

10:1 Unethical Conduct

Unethical conduct by a prospective or enrolled student-athlete or a current or former institutional staff member, which includes any individual who performs work for the institution or the athletics department even if he or she does not receive compensation for such work, may include, but is not limited to, the following:

(d) Knowingly furnishing or knowingly influencing others to furnish the NCAA or the individual’s institution false or misleading information concerning an individual’s involvement in or knowledge of matters relevant
to a possible violation of an NCAA regulation;

This prong of the NCAA rulebook is a slam dunk which nails down a clear NCAA violation because while Sandusky may not have been a current coach at the time of his acts, he was certainly a representative of the athletic department's interest. That is, Sandusky was bound to comply with the Unethical Conduct provisions of the NCAA rulebook because he was a "former institutional staff member, which includes any individual who performs work for the institution or athletics department even if he or she does not receive compensation for such work."

http://www.outkickthecoverage.com/ncaa-has-authority-to-give-penn-state-death-penalty.php

[King James]

I don't know about "slam dunk". Here is the full text of rule 10:1

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10.1 UNETHICAL CONDUCT
Unethical conduct by a prospective or enrolled student-athlete or a current or former institutional staff member (e.g., coach, professor, tutor, teaching assistant, student manager, student trainer) may include, but is not limited to, the following:
(a) Refusal to furnish information relevant to an investigation of a possible violation of an NCAA regulation when requested to do so by the NCAA or the individual's institution;
(b) Knowing involvement in arranging for fraudulent academic credit or false transcripts for a prospective or an enrolled student- athlete;
(c) Knowing involvement in offering or providing a prospective or an enrolled student-athlete an improper inducement or extra benefit or improper financial aid;
(d) Knowingly furnishing the NCAA or the individual's institution false or misleading information concerning the individual's involvement in or knowledge of matters relevant to a possible violation of an NCAA regulation;
(e) Receipt of benefits by an institutional staff member for facilitating or arranging a meeting between a student-athlete and an agent, financial advisor or a representative of an agent or advisor (e.g., "runner
(f) Knowing involvement in providing a banned substance or impermissible supplement to student-athletes, or knowingly providing medications to student-athletes contrary to medical licensure, commonly accepted standards of care in sports medicine practice, or state and federal law;
(g) Failure to provide complete and accurate information to the NCAA or institution's admissions office regarding an individual's academic record (e.g., schools attended, completion of coursework, grades and test scores); (Adopted: 4/27/06)
(h) Fraudulence or misconduct in connection with entrance or placement examinations; or
(i) Engaging in any athletics competition under an assumed name or with intent to otherwise deceive.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The rule is not limiting to the list given, but the problem is that this Penn State situation does not fit under any of the prongs, and it is doubtful there is any support for going beyond them.

But you are right that, if the NCAA wants to, they are more than capable of concocting a reason.

[Stephen]

I think this pretty well covers it.
If that were the case, Nebraska, FSU, and Miami would've gotten the death penalty 15 years ago and Florida not too long ago... :2

I looked over the article you posted, and I thought this individual summized my thoughts on this subject nicely:

The punishment should be focused on the individuals responsible for the cover-up, not the players, students, and fans that had no culpability whatsoever. The legal system can sort this out on its own without the NCAA digging through its rule book to find ambiguities that allow it to administer the death penalty.

[smitty81]

If that were the case, Nebraska, FSU, and Miami would've gotten the death penalty 15 years ago and Florida not too long ago... :2

I looked over the article you posted, and I thought this individual summized my thoughts on this subject nicely:

for what?

See, your getting all defensive about this all.

I am just pointing out that they did in fact break NCAA rules. Rather they deserve the "death penalty", that is up to the NCAA I guess.

The rules I posted, none of them alone really warrant the death penalty. It's all the rules together they have broken that is going to get them the death penalty.

Nebraska has never done anything this serious to deserve a "death penalty".

Your over analyzing all this and it seems your taking it personally.

They broke the rules and the NCAA CAN punish them for it. It is what it is rather you agree with it or not.

[357]

If that were the case, Nebraska, FSU, and Miami would've gotten the death penalty 15 years ago and Florida not too long ago... :2

I looked over the article you posted, and I thought this individual summized my thoughts on this subject nicely:The punishment should be focused on the individuals responsible for the cover-up, not the players, students, and fans that had no culpability whatsoever. The legal system can sort this out on its own without the NCAA digging through its rule book to find ambiguities that allow it to administer the death penalty.

See that's where I disagree. In cases like this you have to follow the money. The ones responsible should be punished but so should those who benefited from it. PSU benefited greatly in terms of football revenue. They too should be punished by removing that revenue stream for a period of time. The court could levy a fine agains PSU but if they pay it with continued football revenue, what does PSU care? If PSU looses that revenue for a number of years, that will also significantly decrease their ability to generate that revenue in the future. See, SMU. That's the real penalty they deserve.

[smitty81]

See that's where I disagree. In cases like this you have to follow the money. The ones responsible should be punished but so should those who benefited from it. PSU benefited greatly in terms of football revenue. They too should be punished by removing that revenue stream for a period of time. The court could levy a fine agains PSU but if they pay it with continued football revenue, what does PSU care? If PSU looses that revenue for a number of years, that will also significantly decrease their ability to generate that revenue in the future. See, SMU. That's the real penalty they deserve.

I agree.

[replicant_argent]

Some folks have a difficulty recognizing their own theft of intellectual property as an unethical personal conduct. Beyond that, and all chest thumping, self masturbatory, sports "hero" worship culture aside, whether Penn State gets financially "chastised" has absolutely zero impact on the genesis of the cultural problem that pervades the many unfortunates who are unable to function as a Happy Homer automaton without being immersed in it.

Your Mileage May Vary. ;)

[Stephen]

for what?
Dude, seriously?
Christan Peter
Lawrence Phillips

Ring a bell?

See, your getting all defensive about this all.

I am just pointing out that they did in fact break NCAA rules. Rather they deserve the "death penalty", that is up to the NCAA I guess.

The rules I posted, none of them alone really warrant the death penalty. It's all the rules together they have broken that is going to get them the death penalty.

Nebraska has never done anything this serious to deserve a "death penalty".

Your over analyzing all this and it seems your taking it personally.

They broke the rules and the NCAA CAN punish them for it. It is what it is rather you agree with it or not.
I don't know where you deduct that I'm taking it personally. :confused:

Herein lies my uneasiness with NCAA, and have yet to see a credible argument (here or elsewhere) to convince me otherwise: It's arbitrary and capricious. If the NCAA does decide to levy sanctions, they're saying that murder, the raping of women, robbery, drug usage, drug distribution, assault, etc. aren't a violation, but THIS is.

[Stephen]

But you are right that, if the NCAA wants to, they are more than capable of concocting a reason.
See: Roger Goodell's, "personal conduct policy."

[King James]

Some folks have a difficulty recognizing their own theft of intellectual property as an unethical personal conduct.

Had difficulty

Beyond that, and all chest thumping, self masturbatory, sports "hero" worship culture aside,

I suggested wins under Paterno be taken away to remove him from the record books, and that his statue should be torn down

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nice to hear from you too, Pete

[King James]

they're saying that murder, the raping of women, robbery, drug usage, drug distribution, assault, etc. aren't a violation, but THIS is.

That is kind of where I am at too. Its not at all that I think Penn State deserves a break, I hope that they have to pay out their ass in civil court and if any other criminal charges can be brought, those should as well.

My point is that if the NCAA steps in, they are open up a can of worms that aught not be opened by the NCAA. Leave criminal matters to the legal system and the NCAA take care of the issues it was created to take care of.

But as already pointed out numerous times, opinions will be different. Especially on such a hotbed issue.

[E.J.]

Dude, seriously?
Christan Peter
Lawrence Phillips

Ring a bell?


I don't know where you deduct that I'm taking it personally. :confused:

Herein lies my uneasiness with NCAA, and have yet to see a credible argument (here or elsewhere) to convince me otherwise: It's arbitrary and capricious. If the NCAA does decide to levy sanctions, they're saying that murder, the raping of women, robbery, drug usage, drug distribution, assault, etc. aren't a violation, but THIS is.

Can you show me where the NCAA has dealt with any of the above for just half the amount of time that we are talking about with PSU and the cover-up related to that?

You can't say, oh the NCAA didn't do anything when Oregon had a player get a felony bla..bla..bla..., then they had a kid get a DUI, then a theft....and have it compare to what happened at PSU. We are talking about the raping of kids for years and years and years and the school covering that up to save their good name.... That isn't a bunch of single incidents over a period of time, which generally are addressed by the school with suspensions anyway... How the difference doesn't compute with you is beyond me.....

[E.J.]

I don’t know, maybe I’m the one missing something here… That is possible....

I just keep seeing comparisons, but IMO there isn’t anything to compare this to. This is unchartered territory for anything we have seen in our lifetime. It is almost unbelievable, like a bad Lifetime Movie meets SportsCenter nuclear bomb of bad television….. Trying to compare some isolated legal problems of student athletes or coaches to the YEARS AND YEARS of serial sexual abuse of children and cover-up of it at PSU is not apples to oranges, it is a single rollerblade boot without wheels and the Space Shuttle….

[King James]

I don't think you are missing anything, just are of a different opinion. Boiled down to the basics, I think it should be left up to the courts and that the NCAA should not get involved for this.

I think everyone agrees that the hammer should be dropped on Penn State, just debate over which hammer.

[Stephen]

Can you show me where the NCAA has dealt with any of the above for just half the amount of time that we are talking about with PSU and the cover-up related to that?
I wasn't aware of a minimum amount of infractions an NCAA institution had to incure before action was taken. In short, if rules were violated at Penn State, they were violated at other universities as well and the NCAA, for reasons unbeknownst to me, failed to take action.
You can't say, oh the NCAA didn't do anything when Oregon had a player get a felony bla..bla..bla..., then they had a kid get a DUI, then a theft....and have it compare to what happened at PSU. We are talking about the raping of kids for years and years and years and the school covering that up to save their good name.... That isn't a bunch of single incidents over a period of time, which generally are addressed by the school with suspensions anyway... How the difference doesn't compute with you is beyond me.....
And how you can trivialize the other illegal activities (some of which were connected, some of which were covered up by their respective athletic departments) is equally beyond me.

[E.J.]

I don't think you are missing anything, just are of a different opinion. Boiled down to the basics, I think it should be left up to the courts and that the NCAA should not get involved for this.

I think everyone agrees that the hammer should be dropped on Penn State, just debate over which hammer.

Fair enough, so with that, would you agree that an argument saying that because "the NCAA has no history of punishing for a domestic violence, DUI, assault or theft ect. So the NCAA getting involved with this, which I feel is a legal issue, should not happen either?" to debate their side is sooooooo far removed from anything we have ever seen, that comparison just doesn't compute?

Let's remember that usually(always?) when a student athlete or coach has a legal issue, they are usually punished by the school as well as the legal system. It isn't like they just deal with the court process and then are good as gold.

[King James]

Fair enough, so with that, would you agree that an argument saying that because "the NCAA has no history of punishing for a domestic violence, DUI, assault or theft ect. So the NCAA getting involved with this, which I feel is a legal issue, should not happen either?" to debate their side is sooooooo far removed from anything we have ever seen, that comparison just doesn't compute?

I would agree with the NCAA getting involved when there is a violation of an NCAA rule, which, to my knowledge, does not include items like those you listed. What happened at Penn State is so heinous that it seems easy to overlook the similarities between what Sandusky did, and a player or coach raping or assaulting someone in an isolated incident. But I think you need to look at TYPE of act and not DEGREE of act.

Let's remember that usually(always?) when a student athlete or coach has a legal issue, they are usually punished by the school as well as the legal system. It isn't like they just deal with the court process and then are good as gold.

I think the difference here is that when the student athletes are punished but the university for a legal issue, its because those athletes sign code of conduct agreements that explicitly discuss what will happen if an athlete faces legal issues.

[E.J.]

I wasn't aware of a minimum amount of infractions an NCAA institution had to incure before action was taken. In short, if rules were violated at Penn State, they were violated at other universities as well and the NCAA, for reasons unbeknownst to me, failed to take action.

And how you can trivialize the other illegal activities (some of which were connected, some of which were covered up by their respective athletic departments) is equally beyond me.

I don't have to "trivialize" to know how to address things on different levels, related to what I am looking at. You know, you don't deal with a parking ticket, like you do with a DUI, which is looked at different than a DUI with injury, which is looked at differently than a 5th DUI conviction because of the history bla..bla..bla.... Apparently you cannot(don't want to?) differentiate on those levels, which is my point. That is okay, at least I know where you are with it.....

[E.J.]

I would agree with the NCAA getting involved when there is a violation of an NCAA rule, which, to my knowledge, does not include items like those you listed. What happened at Penn State is so heinous that it seems easy to overlook the similarities between what Sandusky did, and a player or coach raping or assaulting someone in an isolated incident. But I think you need to look at TYPE of act and not DEGREE of act.



I think the difference here is that when the student athletes are punished but the university for a legal issue, its because those athletes sign code of conduct agreements that explicitly discuss what will happen if an athlete faces legal issues.

I am not following your type of act vs degree of act? So you agree we have never seen anything like this in our history and thus, it will be treated differently or no?


Your second statement was just a response to my comments on kids being punished for their crimes X 2. I was not so much stating that if the school didn't do it, the NCAA would, but that it is not an either/or when talking about athletes/athletic programs in my mind. Just because they are punished by the law, does not mean that further sanctions are not in order. I actually think the school will punish itself in this situation, which may very well satisfy the NCAA.

[King James]

I am not following your type of act vs degree of act? So you agree we have never seen anything like this in our history and thus, it will be treated differently or no?

Your second statement was just a response to my comments on kids being punished for their crimes X 2. I was not so much stating that if the school didn't do it, the NCAA would, but that it is not an either/or when talking about athletes/athletic programs in my mind. Just because they are punished by the law, does not mean that further sanctions are not in order. I actually think the school will punish itself in this situation, which may very well satisfy the NCAA.


I agree that we have never seen anything like this in our history, and I think that regardless of the extent of the acts, that it isn't the place of the NCAA to enforce sanctions when no NCAA rules were broken.

Correct, it doesn't have to be either/or. But in the example of a student athlete, they sign a specific code of conduct that says they will be punished by the school if they break the law (and then they are also likely punished by the law for breaking the law)

In this case, there does not appear to be an NCAA violation for the NCAA to also punish Penn State on top of what punishment they will face in civil court.

[E.J.]

Fair enough.

[357]

Jim, my concern is that the school will fall through the cracks. The admins who orchestrated the coverup will probably face criminal and/or civil action. I haven't heard that PSU is facing a civil suit at this time. Perhaps they are. Even if they are though, they will continue to benefit from these crimes via football revenue if the NCAA doesn't sanction them severly i.e. give them the death penalty. The civil court doesn't have the ability to kill the football program for and period of time, only the NCAA does.

I highly doubt the civil court will punish them anywhere as sever as the death penalty would. According to this site: http://blogs.mcall.com/nittany_lines/2011/01/penn-state-football-made-how-much-money.html Penn State turned a $50.4 million profit in 2010, on $70.2 million in revenue. I can't see a civil court awarding anything equivalent to a 2-4 year ban on football (approximately $280 million of revenue or $200 million profit).

[Stephen]

I don't have to "trivialize" to know how to address things on different levels, related to what I am looking at. You know, you don't deal with a parking ticket, like you do with a DUI, which is looked at different than a DUI with injury, which is looked at differently than a 5th DUI conviction because of the history bla..bla..bla.... Apparently you cannot(don't want to?) differentiate on those levels, which is my point. That is okay, at least I know where you are with it.....
Yes, and each infraction carries a varying degree of punishment, depending on the crime, of which the NCAA has NEVER involved themselves with.
I don't have a strong opinion either way, though for those saying "no" related to the NCAA overstepping their bounds, what about "lack of institutional control"? To me, this seems to fit that bill perfectly.....
Would you say that Colordao circa 1997-2004 (bit hazy on the timeline; sorry) fits your bill of, "lack of institutional control"?

[King James]

Jim, my concern is that the school will fall through the cracks. The admins who orchestrated the coverup will probably face criminal and/or civil action. I haven't heard that PSU is facing a civil suit at this time. Perhaps they are. Even if they are though, they will continue to benefit from these crimes via football revenue if the NCAA doesn't sanction them severly i.e. give them the death penalty. The civil court doesn't have the ability to kill the football program for and period of time, only the NCAA does.

I highly doubt the civil court will punish them anywhere as sever as the death penalty would. According to this site: http://blogs.mcall.com/nittany_lines/2011/01/penn-state-football-made-how-much-money.html Penn State turned a $50.4 million profit in 2010, on $70.2 million in revenue. I can't see a civil court awarding anything equivalent to a 2-4 year ban on football (approximately $280 million of revenue or $200 million profit).

I'm sure news about the civil case will come out in not too long. Right now they are probably trying to settle out of court. Regardless, the victims will get paid. They may not face the same losses as the death penalty (although I can easily see it being over $100 million)

No matter what the penalties, nothing can undo what happened. I am just of the opinion that the death penalty for the program punishes the wrong people.

[AD720]

Jim, my concern is that the school will fall through the cracks. The admins who orchestrated the coverup will probably face criminal and/or civil action. I haven't heard that PSU is facing a civil suit at this time. Perhaps they are. Even if they are though, they will continue to benefit from these crimes via football revenue if the NCAA doesn't sanction them severly i.e. give them the death penalty. The civil court doesn't have the ability to kill the football program for and period of time, only the NCAA does.

I highly doubt the civil court will punish them anywhere as sever as the death penalty would. According to this site: http://blogs.mcall.com/nittany_lines/2011/01/penn-state-football-made-how-much-money.html Penn State turned a $50.4 million profit in 2010, on $70.2 million in revenue. I can't see a civil court awarding anything equivalent to a 2-4 year ban on football (approximately $280 million of revenue or $200 million profit).

Some of the judgments paid by the catholic church in the last 10 years may contradict that. Almost three quarters of a billion (720 million dollars) by the archdiocese of Los Angeles alone...

Edit - not trying to get religious, fyi. Just a comparison based on similar crimes.

[E.J.]

Would you say that Colordao circa 1997-2004 (bit hazy on the timeline; sorry) fits your bill of, "lack of institutional control"?

Again, your comparisons that are shallow at best.... Unless, there was a serial rapist/murderer what have you, that was on staff at that time and the head coach(was it McCartney then?) and administration was covering up for him, letting him continue unabated, on staff and then off....but you know, letting him use the showers and whatnot...

Though, please do tell what you think was happening during those years that has relevance here....what was close....in the same ballpark as what we are talking about.

[Stephen]

Again, your comparisons that are shallow at best.... Unless, there was a serial rapist/murderer what have you, that was on staff at that time and the head coach(was it McCartney then?) and administration was covering up for him, letting him continue unabated, on staff and then off....but you know, letting him use the showers and whatnot...

Though, please do tell what you think was happening during those years that has relevance here....what was close....in the same ballpark as what we are talking about.
A multitude of rapes/sexual assaults by multiple football players, a coverup (or the very least a, "glossing over") by the coaching staff and administration, and, if I remember correctly, a sympathetic DA's office. Again, this is all from memory, but it was a fairly big deal at the time.

In any case, my overall point is that if it's a question of ethical conduct, why hasn't the NCAA gotten involved in incidents too numerous to mention? If it's, "lack of institutional control", why didn't the NCAA investigate the likes of Colorado or Nebraska? Or am I to believe that something the magnitude that transpired at Penn State needs to occur before institutional control is lost? :sh

[E.J.]

A multitude of rapes/sexual assaults by multiple football players, a coverup (or the very least a, "glossing over") by the coaching staff and administration, and, if I remember correctly, a sympathetic DA's office. Again, this is all from memory, but it was a fairly big deal at the time.

In any case, my overall point is that if it's a question of ethical conduct, why hasn't the NCAA gotten involved in incidents too numerous to mention? If it's, "lack of institutional control", why didn't the NCAA investigate the likes of Colorado or Nebraska? Or am I to believe that something the magnitude that transpired at Penn State needs to occur before institutional control is lost? :sh

BINGO!!!!! :noon:noon:noon

Yes, that is the point EXACTLY! You got it....I feel like if this was a race, we could all give you a hug right now.

I am not sure about your memory of the facts at Colorado, I don't recall numerous rapes(or even some felony after felony wagon train of which the NCAA had never seen before) that were covered up, hidden from the public ect. My assumption is that is how the public found out, arrests ect. But I could be wrong, doesn't matter....AGAIN...it wasn't in the ballpark of what we are talking. The reason you haven't seen an uproar of the general public, many of which are not even sports fans, asking for the NCAA to do something in this case and not others.....THE MAGNITUDE. Which is why the NCAA might do something......THE MAGNITUDE.

It isn't a bunch of idiot athletes making a mistake here, committing a felony there & then a coach giving a 1-2 game suspension and then saying "He's a kid, let's give him another chance" - translation - "I can win games with this kid or he'd already be gone." It is decades of child molestation and cover up. Not only glossing over wrong doing, give a second chance....but covering up and letting this man continue to rape kids on their watch... HOW PHUCKING SICK IS THAT. Yes, some 18-22 year old kids making mistakes and being disciplined, then given a second(3,4,5th) chance is one thing.... Harboring a child rapist....well, I think you get the point.

[smitty81]

Dude, seriously?
Christan Peter
Lawrence Phillips



So your saying that the NCAA should of handed out the death penalty to NU because of one player that got caught with drugs or a DUI?

Your comparing apples to oranges here.

The one student was punished good enough in the eyes of the NCAA so they didn't feel a need to step in.

PSU....................YEARS and YEARS of cover ups and child rape.

Not exactly comparing the same kind of crimes. Hard to justify the same kind of punishment.

[Stephen]

BINGO!!!!! :noon:noon:noon

Yes, that is the point EXACTLY! You got it....I feel like if this was a race, we could all give you a hug right now.

I am not sure about your memory of the facts at Colorado, I don't recall numerous rapes(or even some felony after felony wagon train of which the NCAA had never seen before) that were covered up, hidden from the public ect. My assumption is that is how the public found out, arrests ect. But I could be wrong, doesn't matter....AGAIN...it wasn't in the ballpark of what we are talking. The reason you haven't seen an uproar of the general public, many of which are not even sports fans, asking for the NCAA to do something in this case and not others.....THE MAGNITUDE. Which is why the NCAA might do something......THE MAGNITUDE.
No, we live in the internet age. If what happened at Colorado came to light in the manner it did at Penn State, you bet your ass people would be up in arms. And frankly, I'm not about to say that one man comitting heinous acts being covered up by a few is worse than several men comitting heinous acts being covered up by a few, but that's just me. :2
It isn't a bunch of idiot athletes making a mistake here, committing a felony there & then a coach giving a 1-2 game suspension and then saying "He's a kid, let's give him another chance" - translation - "I can win games with this kid or he'd already be gone." It is decades of child molestation and cover up. Not only glossing over wrong doing, give a second chance....but covering up and letting this man continue to rape kids on their watch... HOW PHUCKING SICK IS THAT. Yes, some 18-22 year old kids making mistakes and being disciplined, then given a second(3,4,5th) chance is one thing.... Harboring a child rapist....well, I think you get the point.
Seriously, how crass. So MULTIPLE college athletes who rape women (including their own freaking teammate) simply, "make a mistake.." I'm sure the ten women (at least; only ten came forward) don't share your sentiment.

So done with this conversation.

[Stephen]

So your saying that the NCAA should of handed out the death penalty to NU because of one player that got caught with drugs or a DUI?

Your comparing apples to oranges here.

The one student was punished good enough in the eyes of the NCAA so they didn't feel a need to step in.

PSU....................YEARS and YEARS of cover ups and child rape.

Not exactly comparing the same kind of crimes. Hard to justify the same kind of punishment.
Uh, Christian Peter raped two women while at Nebraska. Kathy Redmond reported it, nothing came of it. Nebraska tried to cover it up. She brought a civil suit against the University and won. That's not even mentioning all the other crap and arrests while there. Missed exactly zero games due to these infractions (and oh yeah, was a team captain in 1995).

Lawrence Phillips, well, you should know that story.

But here's an article about the team around that time (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1007153/index.htm).

And no, I'm not comparing what happened here to what happened at Penn State. I'm stating that it could be argued that, "institutional control" (as has been interpreted in this thread by a few) has been lost at other campuses at other points in time and the NCAA chose not to intervene.

[smitty81]

Uh, Christian Peter raped two women while at Nebraska. Kathy Redmond reported it, nothing came of it. Nebraska tried to cover it up. She brought a civil suit against the University and won. That's not even mentioning all the other crap and arrests while there. Missed exactly zero games due to these infractions (and oh yeah, was a team captain in 1995).

Lawrence Phillips, well, you should know that story.

But here's an article about the team around that time (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1007153/index.htm).

And no, I'm not comparing what happened here to what happened at Penn State. I'm stating that it could be argued that, "institutional control" (as has been interpreted in this thread by a few) has been lost at other campuses at other points in time and the NCAA chose not to intervene.

Maybe so, but when one of the main guys that should be controlling things dosen't come forward for YEARS, you have a problem. Don't think for a second the NCAA didn't look into NU's problems also. The NCAA had nothing to gain by letting it slip.

[E.J.]

No, we live in the internet age. If what happened at Colorado came to light in the manner it did at Penn State, you bet your ass people would be up in arms. And frankly, I'm not about to say that one man comitting heinous acts being covered up by a few is worse than several men comitting heinous acts being covered up by a few, but that's just me. :2

Seriously, how crass. So MULTIPLE college athletes who rape women (including their own freaking teammate) simply, "make a mistake.." I'm sure the ten women (at least; only ten came forward) don't share your sentiment.

So done with this conversation.

Please show me 10 rapes, kid still playing, cover up... I'll wait....

[E.J.]

I'm not sure I ever seen a convicted rapist(happen at a school, play again at that school) play college football again...

[E.J.]

But again, I'll wait for your information....

[TNT009]

Two years would satisfy me!

[ASU Maduro]

I don’t think PSU deserves the Death Penalty, but the sanctions need to be a hair below that. If it is not more severe than recent NCAA sanctions, it would be a slap in the victim’s faces. Ponder this: college football is a business, and if this happened in a true business environment, not only would the persons responsible would be punished; the company would feel the pain, MONEY. And how can the NCAA indirectly limit the schools ability to make MONEY, sanctions through bowl appearances, and stripping of scholarships.

[jcruse64]

I'm not in favor of any punishment for Penn State!
While it was a heinous crime, and the cover-up is reprehensible, those involved are no longer involved with the program.
Punishing Penn State football will only hurt the students and slow the rebuilding of a program, that is desperate to heal.

I've heard that argument a LOT in the last week or so, and am pretty tired of it. I heard one guy on Sirius radio use this reasoning, saying that it's not right to further hurt the school, hurt the students who love the school, hurt the fans who love the school and program and would have to miss out on games lost, hurt the people who make a living from the program in some way (think vendors who sell at games, etc). Yeah, that would hurt them SO much more than Sandusky was allowed to hurt those poor kids :sl Give me a break!!!

Using that line of reasoning, almost NO programs should ever receive NCAA punishment then. I'm a UK Wildcat B'Ball fan from way back. When Eddie Sutton's program got in big trouble in the late '80's, the program lost big time. Eddie and his son Sean (who was the one who was supposedly taking tests for Erik Manuel), in the meantime got to move on to OK State to continue coaching/playing with no such punishment. I believe Manuel finished college at a NAIA school, while UK lost scholarships and tournament opportunities. This punished the athletes, fans, students, and all those connected with the UK program that made money from it (vendors, etc). And it SHOULD have been punished. The program was doing wrong, got caught, and had to be punished. Those who ran the program, coach included, were part of a culture that felt it was above it all. Harsh punishment was needed, as much as I hated to feel the repercussions as a fan.

The issue at Penn State may not have been one where improper activity was knowingly conducted by those in the program and/or running the program to directly and improperly help student athletes/staff personally or give the program a competitive advantage. But the way those at the top (including Paterno) handled things with Sandusky allowed him continued access to all things Penn State Football, which he used to continue his evil, and the covering up of his activities by the CULTURE of Penn State leadership (if the Freeh report is correct) kept the Penn State Way untarnished to the public view, which kept the recruits coming in, along with student, alumni, and corporate support. This IS a program issue on this side of it, and would be one area where the NCAA should be looking to level sanctions to the football program because of the way Sandusky was handled by Penn State. Because Penn State leadership covered this issue up, they received improper benefits in recruiting and support of the program. Think that's a weak argument? I'd say they had much more benefit from covering this up (while it stayed covered up) than those OSU kids got from trading for tattoos. Did the NCAA let THAT coverup go unpunished???

I realize that the student athletes were nowhere involved in this, and it sucks for them. But this became all about the program leadership doing anything they could to cover the evil up to protect The Penn State Way. There was more concern shown for Sandusky than for any of his victims. The program has to be punished for this, whether those responsible are still there or not. The culture HAS to change, especially in light of what that culture did in the face of such horrible evil. Given what I'm still hearing and reading since the Freeh report broke, the culture is still fully in place.

[King James]

I've heard that argument a LOT in the last week or so, and am pretty tired of it. I heard one guy on Sirius radio use this reasoning, saying that it's not right to further hurt the school, hurt the students who love the school, hurt the fans who love the school and program and would have to miss out on games lost, hurt the people who make a living from the program in some way (think vendors who sell at games, etc). Yeah, that would hurt them SO much more than Sandusky was allowed to hurt those poor kids :sl Give me a break!!!

Using that line of reasoning, almost NO programs should ever receive NCAA punishment then. I'm a UK Wildcat B'Ball fan from way back. When Eddie Sutton's program got in big trouble in the late '80's, the program lost big time. Eddie and his son Sean (who was the one who was supposedly taking tests for Erik Manuel), in the meantime got to move on to OK State to continue coaching/playing with no such punishment. I believe Manuel finished college at a NAIA school, while UK lost scholarships and tournament opportunities. This punished the athletes, fans, students, and all those connected with the UK program that made money from it (vendors, etc). And it SHOULD have been punished. The program was doing wrong, got caught, and had to be punished. Those who ran the program, coach included, were part of a culture that felt it was above it all. Harsh punishment was needed, as much as I hated to feel the repercussions as a fan.

The issue at Penn State may not have been one where improper activity was knowingly conducted by those in the program and/or running the program to directly and improperly help student athletes/staff personally or give the program a competitive advantage. But the way those at the top (including Paterno) handled things with Sandusky allowed him continued access to all things Penn State Football, which he used to continue his evil, and the covering up of his activities by the CULTURE of Penn State leadership (if the Freeh report is correct) kept the Penn State Way untarnished to the public view, which kept the recruits coming in, along with student, alumni, and corporate support. This IS a program issue on this side of it, and would be one area where the NCAA should be looking to level sanctions to the football program because of the way Sandusky was handled by Penn State. Because Penn State leadership covered this issue up, they received improper benefits in recruiting and support of the program. Think that's a weak argument? I'd say they had much more benefit from covering this up (while it stayed covered up) than those OSU kids got from trading for tattoos. Did the NCAA let THAT coverup go unpunished???

I realize that the student athletes were nowhere involved in this, and it sucks for them. But this became all about the program leadership doing anything they could to cover the evil up to protect The Penn State Way. There was more concern shown for Sandusky than for any of his victims. The program has to be punished for this, whether those responsible are still there or not. The culture HAS to change, especially in light of what that culture did in the face of such horrible evil. Given what I'm still hearing and reading since the Freeh report broke, the culture is still fully in place.

You, and others in this thread, have perfectly valid points that make a lot of sense. We will just have to agree to disagree. While I agree Penn State should face great penalties, I still don't think the NCAA is the proper enforcer in this case.

[jcruse64]

For criminal acts perpetrated, no, NCAA has ZERO jurisdiction, and thus, no teeth to bare. But WRT the program's leadership covering up to save the face of the Penn State Way and protect the football program and Paterno's rep at all cost, yeah, the NCAA should be involved; that IS within its jurisdiction, IMO.

Give you another scenario: gambling is illegal in many states. If a program in a non-gambling state is caught up in a point-shaving scheme, or some other gambling scheme, and students and staff are involved, there are going to be legal repercussions involved. But given the consequences from the athletics and competition standpoint, would not the NCAA also have to get involved here as well and level punishment???

You're probably right; we will agree to disagree on this one, and I respect your right to your viewpoint, as well as any others on here. I will say this; even though I love the UK Cats, it will not surprise me if something gets flagged in Coach Cal's tenure that will bring down the pain on the B'Ball program. If they get caught and the facts show they cheated in some way, even if it means vacating wins and a title, as much as I dislike the NCAA powers-that-be, I would stand behind sanctions we get hit with. But I don't want to hear ONE WORD about UK getting what it deserves from ANYONE who stands against Penn State NCAA penalties on this issue. Just my :2; your mileage may vary.

[E.J.]

Joe Schad is reporting that the NCAA will announce tomorrow(Monday) they will penalize, but not with the "death penalty.". Penalty will most likely be Bowl appearance &/or scholarships.

[kelmac07]

I personally believe that if the NCAA decides to impose punishment...they should allow the football players (as they were not involved in this heinous crime) the ability to transfer, while losing no eligilbility. They should allow them to transfer and start playing for their new school right away. While I agree the school needs to be punished in some form or fashion...I don't believe the NCAA should be the one imposing punishment, but if they do...the student athletes shouldn't be the ones who suffer. :2

[E.J.]

I personally believe that if the NCAA decides to impose punishment...they should allow the football players (as they were not involved in this heinous crime) the ability to transfer, while losing no eligilbility. They should allow them to transfer and start playing for their new school right away. While I agree the school needs to be punished in some form or fashion...I don't believe the NCAA should be the one imposing punishment, but if they do...the student athletes shouldn't be the ones who suffer. :2

Though we disagree on the NCAA's responsibility to step in here with sanctions, I am 100% in agreement that the Student Athletes should have the ability to get an outright release from their commitment to the school and be allowed to play at whatever NCAA institution they choose w/ financials(assuming they were offered elsewhere).

I'll go a step further, even without NCAA sanctions, these Students Athletes should be allowed immediate transfer to another institution without penalty due to the perceived stain of PSU. If they didn't want to play under that cloud, they shouldn't have to.

[jcruse64]

Though we disagree on the NCAA's responsibility to step in here with sanctions, I am 100% in agreement that the Student Athletes should have the ability to get an outright release from their commitment to the school and be allowed to play at whatever NCAA institution they choose w/ financials(assuming they were offered elsewhere).

I'll go a step further, even without NCAA sanctions, these Students Athletes should be allowed immediate transfer to another institution without penalty due to the perceived stain of PSU. If they didn't want to play under that cloud, they shouldn't have to.

+2; right with you on that one. This was all a leadership failure, nothing on the student-athlete at all, and they should be given every chance to continue their opportunities unabated at another school. They did nothing to deserve a cloud over their heads; Penn State leadership, in effect, hurt them also, though nowhere near what happened with those poor boys.

[bobarian]

As was the case with SMU, reports are that the athletes will be allowed to transfer without penalty or sanction.

[smitty81]

I think the sanctions were pretty fair. I do believe it's going to basically kill the team for a few years.

No post season games/bowl games for 4 years.
Scholarships went from 25-15 for 4 years.
Students may transfer immediatly and still play.
School must give up 60 million dollars.
A vacation of all wins dating to 1998 & The career record of former head football coach Joe Paterno will reflect these vacated records.

[BigAsh]

An example was definitely made...

[Taki]

An example was definitely made...

Couldn't agree more...

[King James]

It'll be interesting to read what part of the NCAA Manual they used to to impose the penalties (if they said it in the press conference, I missed it)

[smitty81]

It'll be interesting to read what part of the NCAA Manual they used to to impose the penalties (if they said it in the press conference, I missed it)

Read this. Not exactly what your looking for, in fact, seems they are kind of beating around the bush about giving a direct reason.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8191027/penn-state-nittany-lions-hit-60-million-fine-4-year-bowl-ban-wins-dating-1998


Here are some other things I missed.

With the wins from 1998-2011 vacated, Paterno drops from 409 wins to 298, dropping him from first to 12th on the winningest NCAA football coach list. Penn State will also have six bowl wins and two conference championships erased.


The Big Ten will also sanction Penn State. The conference has called an 11 a.m. ET news conference to announce to league-related penalties

[King James]

Found this article, too.

‎"NCAA president Mark Emmert gained approval from the board of directors for the penalties. The board is made up of 22 college presidents and chancellors" ... "Emmert said Penn State has signed a consent decree in regard to the penalties"

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--penn-state-mark-emmert-ncaa-sanctions-paterno-statue-sandusky-child-abuse.html

[Blueface]

Tremendous spanking to send a clear message.

[smitty81]

An example was definitely made...

Tremendous spanking to send a clear message.

Yes, but I think it was a reasonable punishment.

[King James]

Yes, but I think it was a reasonable punishment.

As you know, I still disagree on the NCAA being involved. But since the NCAA has gotten involved, I don't mind vacating the wins or the 60 million dollar fine.

[smitty81]

As you know, I still disagree on the NCAA being involved. But since the NCAA has gotten involved, I don't mind vacating the wins or the 60 million dollar fine.

What about the other punishments from the NCAA?

-No post season games/bowl games for 4 years.
-Scholarships went from 25-15 for 4 years.
-Students may transfer immediatly and still play.



There are still more punishments to follow this afternoon as well.

[King James]

What about the other punishments from the NCAA?


There are still more punishments to follow this afternoon as well.

I don't like the scholarships lost or post season ban, but that is probably mostly relating back to me not believing the NCAA should have been involved in the first place. But I think vacating the wins and the fine better punish the proper people, although people that were not involved at all will be affected from any penalty.

This is a terrible situation, if making an example of Penn State works to bring the untouchable status of college football programs down, then good will come out of it. I'm not really too optimistic for that, though. At least not beyond the culture at Penn State.

[Starscream]

Am I the only one who doesn't agree with the wins being vacated? I'm not trying to defend Paterno here, but leaving his winning record intact would be a learning opportunity for a lot of young athletes and coaches. It would show for future generations that sports isn't everything. Look at what this guy did on the field, and then look at what he was capable of when no one was looking.

[Blueface]

Yes, but I think it was a reasonable punishment.

Totally agree.

[smitty81]

Am I the only one who doesn't agree with the wins being vacated? I'm not trying to defend Paterno here, but leaving his winning record intact would be a learning opportunity for a lot of young athletes and coaches. It would show for future generations that sports isn't everything. Look at what this guy did on the field, and then look at what he was capable of when no one was looking.

I guess I don't see your reasoning.

That would be like saying that we will let USC remain the national champs although they were paying their players to play for them and their heisman trophy winner that was also paid was a big reason why they won.

Why should they get to keep their wins. Who's to say they would have won without Paterno?

Why should they get to keep awards and records they otherwise maybe wouldn't of gotten without paterno.

Thats like saying, it's ok to cheat and do wrong behind the NCAA's back, you will still get a bowl ring to keep.:2

[Starscream]

I guess I don't see your reasoning.

That would be like saying that we will let USC remain the national champs although they were paying their players to play for them and their heisman trophy winner that was also paid was a big reason why they won.

Why should they get to keep their wins. Who's to say they would have won without Paterno?

Why should they get to keep awards and records they otherwise maybe wouldn't of gotten without paterno.

Thats like saying, it's ok to cheat and do wrong behind the NCAA's back, you will still get a bowl ring to keep.:2
But there was no cheating going on in this case.
Yes, everyone involved are all creeps and douchebags, and they deserved to be punished, but erasing records is just the easy way out, so we won't have to talk about what happened in the future. At most, put an asterisk beside those wins, kinda like Barry Bonds' accomplishments.

I'm not suggesting that the wins stay intact to glorify anyone or to keep anyone's legacy intact. In fact, I'm suggesting keeping the wins in place so that future generations can look back and see that winners on the field aren't always good people. Erasing this is the easy way out.

[forgop]

But there was no cheating going on in this case.


In every sense of the word, it was cheating and brings home the lack of institutional control. Covering up child rape because of the fear of the negative publicity and to protect the image of the football program, you are committing far worse infractions than what can be done typically in the recruiting/academic means.

[smitty81]

But there was no cheating going on in this case.
Yes, everyone involved are all creeps and douchebags, and they deserved to be punished, but erasing records is just the easy way out, so we won't have to talk about what happened in the future. At most, put an asterisk beside those wins, kinda like Barry Bonds' accomplishments.

I'm not suggesting that the wins stay intact to glorify anyone or to keep anyone's legacy intact. In fact, I'm suggesting keeping the wins in place so that future generations can look back and see that winners on the field aren't always good people. Erasing this is the easy way out.

I see what your getting at but leaving those wins there does nothing but glorify the school, players and coaches.

[Starscream]

I see what your getting at but leaving those wins there does nothing but glorify the school, players and coaches.

Then put an asterisk by those wins.

Should we then take away all of the Giants' wins b/c Barry cheated while playing for them?

[68TriShield]

I disagree Andy.
Any win during the time they were covering up for Sandusky,should be and was erased.
Too bad for the players, because they had no knowledge of what was happening.
Joe Paterno had more important things to consider than his record or saving face of the program.It's inhumane,just plain inhumane of all those involved.

[smitty81]

Then put an asterisk by those wins.

Should we then take away all of the Giants' wins b/c Barry cheated while playing for them?

I dunno, it's a gray area.

I could go either way on that one really.

[Starscream]

I dunno, it's a gray area.

I could go either way on that one really.

That's how I feel about the Penn State issue.

[smitty81]

That's how I feel about the Penn State issue.

But with Penn state, your talking about something MUCH MUCH bigger with many more people involved.

Not just one bad player.

I probably wouldn't go as far as to take the Giants wins away but I would for sure take bonds out of the record books.

Would they of won without Bonds...........doubt it.

Would Penn St. of won without Paterno...........who's to say?

But your talking about the COACH and many other people that contributed to all the wins, not one good player.

[Starscream]

But with Penn state, your talking about something MUCH MUCH bigger with many more people involved.

Not just one bad player.

I probably wouldn't go as far as to take the Giants wins away but I would for sure take bonds out of the record books.

Would they of won without Bonds...........doubt it.

Would Penn St. of won without Paterno...........who's to say?

But your talking about the COACH and many other people that contributed to all the wins, not one good player.

And many players who had no knowledge of what was going on either.

[smitty81]

And many players who had no knowledge of what was going on either.

It is what it is. Sucks for the players but it's fair IMOP.

Your entitled to your own opinion and I can see that we are not going to agree on this so I will just leave it at that.

[Whee]

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t7/IllinoisHoosier/angry-mob.jpg

[Taki]

I dunno, it's a gray area.

I could go either way on that one really.


Just catching up but it sounds like you are going both ways if the hole Bonds issue was even remotely involved or related. You say you wouldnt throw out the wins of the Giants even though all those years they cheated, clearly broke the rules of the league but the football players for all those years did not cheat or did nothing wrong / broke no rules. It was the higher ups that covered it up and threw everything under the rug. I do not agree at all with what Penn State did but to punish the players that had nothing to do with it pisses me off a little, and then to go ahead and punish all the future players...hell they should have just given PSU the death penalty and finned them the $60M...IMO

[BigAsh]

I'm a life-long PSU/JoePa fan...grew up with it..been to many a game in Happy Valley...that being said, I think what the NCAA did was to send a message, LOUD and CLEAR...protect kids, regardless of any "effect on the program"...stripping the past wins, etc are symbolic gestures, and I think aimed directly at the (former) all-times wins leader, Joe...the bowl ban, scholarship loss and those things are to invoke a culture change....crippling the program will ensure that football is no longer king :2

[forgop]

I'm a life-long PSU/JoePa fan...grew up with it..been to many a game in Happy Valley...that being said, I think what the NCAA did was to send a message, LOUD and CLEAR...protect kids, regardless of any "effect on the program"...stripping the past wins, etc are symbolic gestures, and I think aimed directly at the (former) all-times wins leader, Joe...the bowl ban, scholarship loss and those things are to invoke a culture change....crippling the program will ensure that football is no longer king :2

Very well said.

It would have never come down to this if the school president, BoD, AD, and JoePa acted in a way to protect the children rather than their own behinds first and foremost. They were more concerned with PSU's prestige and allowing Sandusky to prey on kids on their campus than to report it to the police.

[Blueface]

Then put an asterisk by those wins.

Should we then take away all of the Giants' wins b/c Barry cheated while playing for them?

Not even closely related analogy in my mind. But yes, if the Giants knew he was on cheating steroids, take it away from them and you will send a clear message to all of baseball.

As for the asterisk, do they leave Penn's record as is, with an asterisk leading to a footnote saying "these wins took place while an assistant coach molested children of which he was ultimately convicted of 45 counts and all along, while he was doing that, everyone of authority, that could have and should have brought it to the attention of the authorities, looked the other way, sort of like this symbol :rolleyes:"

[Starscream]

As for the asterisk, do they leave Penn's record as is, with an asterisk leading to a footnote saying "these wins took place while an assistant coach molested children of which he was ultimately convicted of 45 counts and all along, while he was doing that, everyone of authority, that could have and should have brought it to the attention of the authorities, looked the other way, sort of like this symbol :rolleyes:"

Exactly. Leave it up there for all to see and take note of. Bigger humiliation for those involved than just erasing the record. A modern day Faust tale for all to see what happens when you sell your soul in order to get what you want.