Tragic shooting death involving off duty Detroit Police officer

[357]

I have the utmost respect for LEOs, firefighters, and other public service workers. I have read a couple articles on this tragedy. Here is one: http://www.freep.com/article/20120710/NEWS01/207100416/Family-to-police-Why-did-daughter-die-

And another: http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/09/12644760-detroit-police-chief-fatal-shooting-after-hug-was-accident?lite

What is clear is a 24 year old woman is dead from a gunshot wound to the chest. The rest I can't piece together. It just doesn't add up. Now I'm not blaming the officer or the victim. I'm just trying to work it out in my head as to how this could happen. Below are some of the logistics.

The weapon was a S&W M&P 40. It only has a safety within the trigger, similar to that used on Glock pistols. While I am not a fan of this safety design, I can't figure out how this weapon went off. To pull a trigger unintentionally through a neoprene holster would be difficult/improbable. Plus, how did the angle of the barrel allow for her to be shot in the chest? It just seems something isn't right with this story.

[elderboy02]

I don't see how she was shot in the chest if it was holstered. First of all, the holster covers the trigger. So, lets just say she got her hand in the holster, pulled the trigger, but then how does it shoot upward at her chest if the gun is pointing down.

I wonder if she committed suicide and he is covering for her or something like that?

[mosesbotbol]

I agree. There's some missing details to this story. I wonder if she was on her knees and not hugging him as they contend.

[357]

I agree. There's some missing details to this story. I wonder if she was on her knees and not hugging him as they contend.

It's possibly but her family contends she didn't even know him prior to this. I'm sure the angle of the wounds would be very helpful in determining both of their positions when the weapon discharged.

Edited: Just found an article saying just what you thought.

http://www.freep.com/article/20120710/NEWS01/120710037/Police-officer-gun-holstered-Adaisha-Miller?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE

Adaisha Miller was on her knees while dancing behind an off-duty Detroit police officer early Sunday when his holstered gun fired, striking her in the chest, a police official familiar with the investigation told the Free Press today.

The official said that explains how Miller was shot in the chest while dancing behind Officer Isaac Parrish during a fish fry early Sunday at his home on Archdale. The official said the angle of the gunshot is possible because Miller was not standing.

The official described it as some type of "exotic dance" where Miller, 24, was tugging at Parrish’s waist.

Miller’s family members strongly disputed that account today.

[357]

But still, when holstered a gun points down. Which means the trigger must be pulled in an upward direction. So they're saying she pushed upward against this neoprene holster hard enough (6.5-10 lbs of force) and specifically within the trigger guard so as to completely depress the trigger?

[Remo]

I was thinking about this yesterday, was wondering how an IWB or hip holster could hit her in the chest,,,then I thought, maybe it was a shoulder holster, pointing backward and when she hugged him from behind somehow it went off?

[357]

Just to be extra clear, I know two members of CA that are active DPD. They are both good guys. It's probable that they know Officer Parrish. I am not suggesting that he did anything wrong. I am just questing the reported account of events.

[emopunker2004]

We were talking about this the other night at work. Somebody is telling a lie. No way a gun in a holster is going to shoot up like that. Something is fishy.

[Remo]

Just to be extra clear, I know two members of CA that are active DPD. They are both good guys. It's probable that they know Officer Parrish. I am not suggesting that he did anything wrong. I am just questing the reported account of events.

Yup, whatever the media says is about 20% accurate, yes a gun was fired and unfortunately someone was killed, I will wait for some official account.

[Blueface]

This is a perfect example of his side, the other side, and somewhere in between lies the truth.
Can't phantom how this could have happened as described.
If true, my concealed in my back pocket should have put quite a few holes in me or somebody by now.

[ApexAZ]

Moral of the story: Don't carry cocked with a round in the chamber. Use a revolver for safer self defense.

[shilala]

I looked at all this and can see it happen. There are probably details that are being witheld to protect the victim, that'd be my best guess.
It boils down to a tragic accident. Most accidents don't happen as a result of one odd thing taking place, it's usually a string of human errors that lead to catastrophe.
I just hope Adaisha's parents can find the explanation they're looking for. Odds are they won't accept the truth, it'll be stranger than fiction.
All details aside, everyone involved could use our prayers.

[HollywoodQue]

Moral of the story: Don't carry cocked with a round in the chamber. Use a revolver for safer self defense.

That's not how we were trained in the Police Academy Brian because if you are ever in a gun fight for your life or the life of someone else, each second that it takes you to load your weapon can be fatal.

This was a very tragic accident. Scott, I also can see how this can happen. I will try to download a demo shortly. I do not know the officer or victim in this situation, nor am I trying to justify what happened.

I to am waiting on the official report, but looking at the possibility of it all, I believe it is possible.

[icehog3]

Like Remo Mike, I will refrain from commenting until the facts come to light. Everything else right now is speculation and conjecture.

[HollywoodQue]

Like Remo Mike, I will refrain from commenting until the facts come to light. Everything else right now is speculation and conjecture.

Agreed Tom. I just wanted to test what was said to have happened to see if it was even possible. From what I just tried at home with NO scientific proof, it seems possible, NOT that is happened this way at all.

[icehog3]

Understood, Howard, I hope it all comes out (well) in the wash.

[Bill86]

I have shot one of those, in fact I have one. You can't accidentally pull THAT trigger. Especially in a holster, it's probably a 10 pound D/A trigger. I'm sure it's possible.....but damn, not easy.

That said, accidentally discharges happen to A LOT of people sooner or later. MANY people won't admit it but they have shot a round in something sooner or later. Even if it's just at the range and they shoot the floor or ground. Gun jams and they accidentally pull the trigger while racking it......etc etc.

It hasn't happened to me but I do know people who have had it happen.

[ApexAZ]

This is just assuming what they are saying is really what happened. If so, where is the need to conceal a loaded and cocked weapon in your own back yard? I realize this is detroit, but it's not like this guy was on duty in a public area; it was his own home with friends he invited himself.

Anyways, that's why I prefer double action revolvers. You don't sacrifice speed, but it takes a lot more to discharge them accidentally.

Either way, the story definitely doesn't seem add up. Seems fishy.

[icehog3]

I guess you've never lived in Detroit, Brian. ;)

[Remo]

I guess you've never lived in Detroit, Brian. ;)

I would have two guns on me even while in the house if lived in the D.

[ApexAZ]

I guess you've never lived in Detroit, Brian. ;)

Haha no, but if I felt like I had to walk around my own home with a loaded gun, I'd be looking for a new place to live I think.

Opinions and speculation aside, my heart goes out to her family. What a tragedy =(

[HollywoodQue]

I DO NOT KNOW THE OFFICER OR THE VICTIM INVOLVED IN THIS TRAGIC SHOOTING. I am only trying to see for myself if the stated way this happened is even possible.

This is truely a tragic accident that occured within my department. I feel for the victim, her family, and the officer. I just had this same decussion at my barbershop. I barber has a CPL and carries. He also has the same neoprene holster that the officer was using which is horrible and offers not locking mechanism. Their are several types of neoprene holsters, but the one which he was carrying is just like a drivers wet suit.

At the barbershop, I took my barbers neoprene holster , placed a pair of his scissors inside, handle in first and was able to easily pulled one of the loops of the scissors handle in a downward motion as if it was the trigger of a weapon.


In this first photo, it shows the compact version of the weapon that the officer was carrying, but more importantly, it shows my holster, when properly placed on the waistband, it is parallel to the ground.

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j337/evidtech/Demonstration002.jpg

Now this photo shows a pancake holster carrying the DPD issued S&W MP in a holster designed to point at a 45 degree angle to the ground.

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j337/evidtech/Demonstration001.jpg

Now imagine if someone was squatting and held on to your waistband for balance, then pulled themselves up using your waistband. Went doing this, you may have a natural instinct to clench your hand. The weapon is concealed under my shirt.

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j337/evidtech/demo2001.jpg

Same photo with my shirt raised up and my thumb is still on the trigger.

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j337/evidtech/demo2002.jpg

[HollywoodQue]

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j337/evidtech/demo2003.jpg

Now, this only shows that it is possible.

I can honestly say that in my opinion, I am 100 % sure that I DON'T HAVE A CLUE AS TO WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.

[HollywoodQue]

I would have two guns on me even while in the house if lived in the D.

Yeah man, it's a damn shane that it gotten this bad....but don't be fooled for a minute. The entire country is in bad shape.

@ Tom....man, I have been trying to move to West Bloomfield for over a year...just tried of all the nonsense in the streets.

[ApexAZ]

Could it be possible the weapon came out of the holster, fell and discharged?

[HollywoodQue]

Could it be possible the weapon came out of the holster, fell and discharged?

Until the department does a complete investigation, anything is possible.

The bad thing about it all is that there is a dead, one day short of turning 25 years old, young lady.

Lets suppose the officer is cleared....I believe that he can still be sued by the family for Wrongful Death.

[Coach Deg]

[QUOTE=HollywoodQue;1677022]Yeah man, it's a damn shane that it gotten this bad....but don't be fooled for a minute. The entire country is in bad shape.

I agree, the entire country is getting worse.

[icehog3]

@ Tom....man, I have been trying to move to West Bloomfield for over a year...just tried of all the nonsense in the streets.

Just makes me sad, Howard, my old neighborhood makes me want to cry.

[HollywoodQue]

Just makes me sad, Howard, my old neighborhood makes me want to cry.

Me too Tom....I currently live in South Rosedale Park. There were judges, doctors, and police in the neighborhood when I moved here in 2000. The average cost of a home in this area was between 160K and 300k. It last appraised at $189k in 2003. A home 2 houses over is now listed for $26k. Damn....

[HollywoodQue]

I absolutly Love the City Tom. The downtown river walk is just a site of pure beauty brother. The buildings, trees, store fronts have never disappointed me, but these crazy azz #4%6&* are out of their mines.

[icehog3]

I hear you, Howard....still can find patches of beauty on the East side....but the West side just brings a tear to my eye.

[emopunker2004]

Moral of the story: Don't carry cocked with a round in the chamber. Use a revolver for safer self defense.

Makes no sense. A gun without a chambered round is a blunt trauma weapon. Go watch some of the videos out there of robberies where an employee has to chamber a round before shooting and gets shot multiple times. If its a hammer fired gun, cocked and locked. If it's striker fired(glock, xd, m&p) keep your bugger hook off the trigger and carry in a PROPER holster and it will not go bang.

[ApexAZ]

Makes no sense. A gun without a chambered round is a blunt trauma weapon. Go watch some of the videos out there of robberies where an employee has to chamber a round before shooting and gets shot multiple times. If its a hammer fired gun, cocked and locked. If it's striker fired(glock, xd, m&p) keep your bugger hook off the trigger and carry in a PROPER holster and it will not go bang.

There is absolutly nothing that makes sense about about how the poor woman died.

[Blueface]

Makes no sense. A gun without a chambered round is a blunt trauma weapon. Go watch some of the videos out there of robberies where an employee has to chamber a round before shooting and gets shot multiple times. If its a hammer fired gun, cocked and locked. If it's striker fired(glock, xd, m&p) keep your bugger hook off the trigger and carry in a PROPER holster and it will not go bang.

I agree and carry mine with a bullet in the chamber. If in the heat of the moment, you have to pull the gun, remember to pull the slide and then aim and shoot, you will likely be dead long before the bullet makes it to the chamber. Hope I never have to use it but if I do, it will be loaded. The trigger pull is so long, can't see it accidentally firing on me.

[bonjing]

Howard, great pics and explanation! I can see that being harder to do with a stiffer/leather holster but if its one of these

http://www.unclemikes.com/products/inside_the_pant_holsters.html

(if i posted it right)

I can definitely see it possible using the actions that you describe. Seeing in the above link how the Glock's trigger area is exposed and neoprene being being semi soft i can easily see a thumb or a finger getting in there.

[HollywoodQue]

There is absolutly nothing that makes sense about about how the poor woman died.

It never makes sense when anyone is killed. All of it is saddening brother.

[icehog3]

[QUOTE=Blueface;1677059 If in the heat of the moment, you have to pull the gun, remember to pull the slide and then aim and shoot, you will likely be dead long before the bullet makes it to the chamber. [/QUOTE]

Unless you train consistently that way, Carlos. In the heat of the moment, one who trains regularly will revert back to how he trains instinctually. I train in the range, with my off-duty weapon, to draw, rack and fire.

[Blueface]

Unless you train consistently that way, Carlos. In the heat of the moment, one who trains regularly will revert back to how he trains instinctually. I train in the range, with my off-duty weapon, to draw, rack and fire.

I think you have a clear advantage in that most folks won't practice as much as someone in law enforcement does.
I hit the rang twice a month on average.
I try to practice drawing regularly but since my carry is a Ruger LCP, with that small slide, not sure I can practice enough to be comfortable.
I want to get something bigger like a Glock 26 for more times than not and would definitely feel better racking that slide in a bind.

[HollywoodQue]

Unless you train consistently that way, Carlos. In the heat of the moment, one who trains regularly will revert back to how he trains instinctually. I train in the range, with my off-duty weapon, to draw, rack and fire.

Yeah Tom, and if one trains constantly and you find yourself in a possible shoot out, my weapon always appears in my hand, chambered, aiming, and ready to fire and guess what, I don't even remember drawing it, it was automatically in my hand. Wow.

[icehog3]

Yeah Tom, and if one trains constantly and you find yourself in a possible shoot out, my weapon always appears in my hand, chambered, aiming, and ready to fire and guess what, I don't even remember drawing it, it was automatically in my hand. Wow.

Exactly, Howard.

[IBQTEE1]

Thanks Howard for the reenactment. It is a sad story.

[357]

This is just assuming what they are saying is really what happened. If so, where is the need to conceal a loaded and cocked weapon in your own back yard? I realize this is detroit, but it's not like this guy was on duty in a public area; it was his own home with friends he invited himself.

Anyways, that's why I prefer double action revolvers. You don't sacrifice speed, but it takes a lot more to discharge them accidentally.

Either way, the story definitely doesn't seem add up. Seems fishy.

This makes no sense. A striker fire weapon like the one in this story only requires some pressure on the trigger to fire. There is no real safety. The same is true of a DAO revolver. No safety and all you have to do to fire is apply pressure to the trigger.

I carry a 1911 that has a firing-pin block deactivated by a grip safety. It also has a thumb safety. It's designed to be carried cocked and locked, which scares some people who are unfamiliar with the operation of a 1911. Believe me when I say I've seen cocked/locked 1911 hammers bent forward where it almost made contact to the firing pin and the sear wouldn't release. I've read accounts where they've been dropped muzzle down from 3 stories and didn't fire. IMO the cocked/locked 1911 is one of the safest guns to carry. DA/SA are safe but have disadvantages I don't care for. DA/SA pistols have a long heavy trigger pull follwed by short light pulls. A SAO 1911 has the same trigger pull with each round. Since a consistent trigger pull is paramount to accuracy, I feel the DA/SA concept is flawed. But, I digress.

Yeah man, it's a damn shane that it gotten this bad....but don't be fooled for a minute. The entire country is in bad shape.

@ Tom....man, I have been trying to move to West Bloomfield for over a year...just tried of all the nonsense in the streets.

First, great illustrations Howard. It would be possible from either a MOB or a strong side hip holster and I agree it would probably be the thumb pressing upward while gripping the waist or belt. If thats the way it happened, it was truly a freak accident.

The officer didn't do anything wrong if that's the case. Carrying on your own property has few if any of the restrictions that concealed carrying or open carrying does on public or otherwise owned private property.


Until the department does a complete investigation, anything is possible.

The bad thing about it all is that there is a dead, one day short of turning 25 years old, young lady.

Lets suppose the officer is cleared....I believe that he can still be sued by the family for Wrongful Death.

If the officer is cleared I hope he doesn't face this kind of civil suit.

[ApexAZ]

It absolutely makes sense because it requires more pressure to fire a DAO revolver. Stock M&P trigger is rated at 6.5 lbs. My Ruger LCR is rated at 10.2 lbs according to American Rifleman.

I agree that this accident is still possible with a revolver, but it would require about 3.7 more pounds of pressure to fire, thus reducing the chances of accidental misfire.

Other benefits of revolver use:

Extremely low rate of malfunction.
No thought needed about what condition it's in. Just point and shoot.

If this can happen to a seasoned LEO, it can happen to anyone.

If you want to carry loaded, the revolver seems the safer, more reliable choice, while sacrificing some ammo capacity.

[mosesbotbol]

IMO the cocked/locked 1911 is one of the safest guns to carry.

Not to mention knock down power of the .45 and fun to shoot. Get hit anywhere with .45 and problem solved.

[icehog3]

If you want to carry loaded, the revolver seems the safer, more reliable choice, while sacrificing some ammo capacity.

I guess we can agree to disagree, although I admit that I train specifically to carry a semi-automatic in a safe mode, possibly giving me an advantage over the average concealed carrier.

[357]

It absolutely makes sense because it requires more pressure to fire a DAO revolver. Stock M&P trigger is rated at 6.5 lbs. My Ruger LCR is rated at 10.2 lbs according to American Rifleman.

I agree that this accident is still possible with a revolver, but it would require about 3.7 more pounds of pressure to fire, thus reducing the chances of accidental misfire.

Other benefits of revolver use:

Extremely low rate of malfunction.
No thought needed about what condition it's in. Just point and shoot.

If this can happen to a seasoned LEO, it can happen to anyone.

If you want to carry loaded, the revolver seems the safer, more reliable choice, while sacrificing some ammo capacity.

I disagree. I like wheelguns. I appreciate their simplicity and overwhelming reliability. However, to imply this wouldn't happen because a DAO requires 3.5 more pounds of pressure is silly. Having two pieces of steel preventing the weapon from firing, requiring some form of actuation to disengage them, is much safer and doesn't require any more time to respond with. That said 1911s have been around over 100 years, 75 years of that they were the standard issue side arm for all branches of our military. They have a pretty good track record.

I don't worry about the condition of my 1911 a I always carry it cocked and locked. It only gets changed if I'm firing it or intentionally removing the ammo for cleaning or presentation to a friend. I draw and flick the thumb safety as I'm raising my pistol. The grip safety is disengaged by simply holding the weapon firmly enough for it not to fly out of my hand when I fire it.

That aside, the main issue seems to be unintentional pressure on the trigger caused the weapon to discharge. Had it been a DAO revolver the same thing may have happened. We don't know the amount of pressure exerted other than it had to be more than 6.5 lbs. Had the weapon been a 1911 or DA/SA pistol, it probably would not have happened given the physical safeties each has. I'm not begrudging him for what he was carrying, just stating fact. Carry what you want; legally of course. If I chose to carry a revolver or a striker fired weapon I would probably use a leather or hard polymer holster to help avoid something putting pressure on the trigger unintentionally.