Trade value??

[wayner123]

This has always been a question for me. I have been in a couple passes now and followed quite a number as well. I also have done many trades. When doing these things value for value plays a part.

So my question comes to you all. How do you determine trade value??

I usually go off of MSRP for NC's. However, some states have taxes that can drive the price up to double MSRP.

For CC's there is no MSRP. At some sites you can get great deals, at others they are overly priced. There is no real standard by which to go by.

Now you all might be saying who cares, it's the spirit of giving that counts. And while I believe that wholeheartedly, it is a factor when doing trades, MAW, TAW, etc. I would appreciate it greatly to know how you BOTL's determine such things, or even if it matters to you.

[Wolfgang]

I look at things under a few criteria.

MSRP if it applies.

Then Rarity of the Cigar. Like once a year releases

Then age of the cigar. A 99 opus is not the same as an 08 hemmingway.

Then origin of the cigar comes into play. Sure you can get deals where Cubans will cost less than $1 a stick but be honest. what is it worth to you? if you say not much consider a different choice.

My #1 rule when i sign onto a pass You ask the Pass host if your puts/takes are up to par BEFORE SHIPPING!!!!. Same with trades.

[Da Klugs]

It's the unspoken underlying issue that touches the "accountant" that lives to some varying extent inside all of us. Each of us knows what we know. Over time we learn more. Different levels of knowledge and access differences create huge variances in "value" and what is actually paid for certain things. The vast majority of times you see members actions in trades, PIF's etc in the light of "pay it forward". It's just the brotherly way. We leave things better than we find them. Occasionally you see otherwise. Many times it's a case of just not knowing. Rarely, it's something else and it gets worked out one way or another. Best advice is, when in doubt ask and when there is no doubt, take note.

It's also important to understand that many things change radically in price over time in both directions. There are cigars that cost $ 140 a box, 9 months ago that are $ 75 today. It's also a weird period of time with the 60-70 percent sale stuff. Has not really happened in the past and unless another big distributor goes belly up, won't happen again.

[bigloo]

Generally I dont look at MSRP for NC. Instead I use average chimp and current CI/famous/JR/etc prices to determine value. MSRP is dangerous. No one on the board pays MSRP so value should be what people pay. Rare cigars, extremely hard to find, etc, all have more true value. Finally, the final check, ask yourself "would I feel screwed". If you feel you would be satisfied, then you should be good.

[icehog3]

The vast majority of times you see members actions in trades, PIF's etc in the light of "pay it forward". It's just the brotherly way. We leave things better than we find them.

Pretty much sums up 95%+ of what I have seen. I don't worry about "equal value", I try to make the next guy in the pass or Pif smile. ;)

[Don Fernando]

If it is a 'equal value' trade only the price you paid for the cigars is important. If it is a 'I send you some cigars and you send me some cigars' trade to make someone else smoke cigars they never had it is about the thought instead of the value. Just remember, not everybody has the same budget, a 10$ cigar can be another man's $1 yardgar.

[wayner123]

Pretty much sums up 95%+ of what I have seen. I don't worry about "equal value", I try to make the next guy in the pass or Pif smile. ;)

I agree with you on making the next guy smile. And I feel it's always best to be the more generous member.

Generally I dont look at MSRP for NC. Instead I use average chimp and current CI/famous/JR/etc prices to determine value. MSRP is dangerous. No one on the board pays MSRP so value should be what people pay. Rare cigars, extremely hard to find, etc, all have more true value. Finally, the final check, ask yourself "would I feel screwed". If you feel you would be satisfied, then you should be good.

I pay MSRP at a few shops I go to. As do many other BOTL's that I know of.

One issue for me is let's say I got a $10 cigar at $5 on a discount. Does that now mean it's trade value is $5?

On the opposite side of the coin, if I paid $20 for a $10 because of taxes, does that now make it's trade value $20?

[wayner123]

The vast majority of times you see members actions in trades, PIF's etc in the light of "pay it forward". It's just the brotherly way. We leave things better than we find them. .

I agree somewhat with that statement. But it can't always be that way. I mean if it was, by the end of the pass everyone would be PIF'ing 1942's or the like. So does it fall on someone to be the degrader?? That's why being close to value helps in these PIF's, trades, etc. One on One trading I can understand being the most generous, but the way the PIF, MAW, and TAW threads are set up it is best to get close to value.

[TOB9595]

It's the unspoken underlying issue that touches the "accountant" that lives to some varying extent inside all of us. Each of us knows what we know. Over time we learn more. Different levels of knowledge and access differences create huge variances in "value" and what is actually paid for certain things. The vast majority of times you see members actions in trades, PIF's etc in the light of "pay it forward". It's just the brotherly way. We leave things better than we find them. Occasionally you see otherwise. Many times it's a case of just not knowing. Rarely, it's something else and it gets worked out one way or another. Best advice is, when in doubt ask and when there is no doubt, take note.

It's also important to understand that many things change radically in price over time in both directions. There are cigars that cost $ 140 a box, 9 months ago that are $ 75 today. It's also a weird period of time with the 60-70 percent sale stuff. Has not really happened in the past and unless another big distributor goes belly up, won't happen again.

I think DK sums up the spirit..leave it better than it came...and the value..there is an accountant in all of us..

Well expressed.
Youse other guys stated well also...
I simply don't have original ideas and use others ideas

hahahahaha

Tom

[ucla695]

Pretty much sums up 95%+ of what I have seen. I don't worry about "equal value", I try to make the next guy in the pass or Pif smile. ;)


:tpd: Well said and exactly how I trade!!

[wayner123]

Anyone else have an opinion on the matter??

[LasciviousXXX]

Anyone else have an opinion on the matter??

Was there anyone opinion in particular you were looking for? There are tons of great thoughts above IMO :2

I will have to say I agree with all the guys above.

[Ratters]

I have some Gurkhas to trade ya. :ss

[SmokinApe]

IMO, and maybe I am wrong, the point of PIFs and Passes are to hook someone else up not yourself... If you looking to get even or worst, to get over, stick to the WTS and retail section...

[Da Klugs]

Over a long enough timeline evererything tends to balance itself out. Excessive givers get theirs in the long run either in cigars or from karmically fulfilling acts. Excessive takers the opposite is true.

[ahc4353]

I agree with you on making the next guy smile. And I feel it's always best to be the more generous member.



I pay MSRP at a few shops I go to. As do many other BOTL's that I know of.

One issue for me is let's say I got a $10 cigar at $5 on a discount. Does that now mean it's trade value is $5?

On the opposite side of the coin, if I paid $20 for a $10 because of taxes, does that now make it's trade value $20?

My :2 is no and no.

Way to much work and stress to figure this all out.

You got a deal good for you. I'm not going to say to you, "hey Wayne I know you got that on sale for 50% off so send two".
You pay higher taxes, oh well. I don't know tax rates in each state and really don't care to. (What is the tax rate in NJ? :D )

A trade to me is agreed upon before cigars are in transit. Both sides feel it is a good trade or no trade happens.

As for a pass, that's a little harder. 99.999999% of the people here will make an honest effort to be close in their takes and putts. The ones that don't won't last long anyway.

This is supposed to be fun not work as far as I'm concerned.

[floydpink]

Over a long enough timeline evererything tends to balance itself out. Excessive givers get theirs in the long run either in cigars or from karmically fulfilling acts. Excessive takers the opposite is true.


That pretty much sums up my feelings.
I remember my jaw droppping a few years ago when I did my first blind trades and pifs. I couldn't believe what had arrived at my house from someone I never met and interacted with solely on a cigar forum, and really make an effort to take care of recipients when I am involved in a pif or trade in hopes of keeping the brotherly spirit alive.

[HK3-]

My thought is - By the time you figure up all the pricing and then digging around to make sure you have an EQUAL trade value, the FUN part of the pass or trade has been taken. When it becomes WORK the fun is lost.

I agree that going above and really PIF is the way to go.

And, if you don't like it, don't play. Simple as that. :2

[bobarian]

I think how you interact with trading and PIF's is only something you can determine. I have boxes that I have paid 3x more than recent sales. I have also paid crazy California taxes for singles. I always try to balance things, but in the end its all about PIFing so by giving more I am ahead in the long run. :2

[kaisersozei]

Wayne, as a newb I still get relatively anxious about my put/take values in passes. As others have said, I always PIF by putting more than I take, but I still hold my breath in hope that someone doesn't question the value-for-value end of my takes.

Here's what I do:

I use something close to single-stick MSRP as a benchmark of value. I think that's a fair way to do it because the pass is about single stick trades. I take it from the perspective of "what would this cigar I am taking cost me if I was going down to the B&M and buying one today?" To me, passes are about trying new cigars, and when I try a new cigar I buy a few singles or a sampler first--not an entire box from an on-line retailer.

My B&M lists their prices on-line, and I also use the Top25 database which usually lists the MSRP & "average price paid." I'll also compare those prices to CI or other on-line sites, but it's still on a single stick (or small quantity) basis. I try to get the value close, and always err on the conservative side. I don't take vintage or hard-to-find cigars because I don't have anything to replace those with; the same for CC's.

I've participated in a number of passes this past year and run one, and they've all worked out okay using this method. At least, no one has complained. :D

[SilverFox]

Anyone else have an opinion on the matter??

An opinion well they are like................. so everyone has one.

I say simply don't sweat it. In the grand scheme of things the negative energy you create for yourself in worrying whether what the last guy did was "fair" or not ruins the potential for you to enjoy a trade or MAW for what it is an opportunity for you to share something you have with someone you think will enjoy it.

I send out a bomb or two and do lots of trades my expectation is simple, that the person I am sending too will enjoy what I send and hopefully think of what I might like in return. It isn't about volume, price, or any other commercial measure to me. I get all my value in smiles, if I have brightened a day nothing you can send me in a box has more value than that.

[icehog3]

A friend of one became involved in a pass on another Cigar Forum, the first big pass they had ever been involved in.

The starter of the pass, along with his toadies, had to approve all puts and takes before the box could be sent. When the pass came to my friend, they were totally stressed out about their puts and takes. My experience with passes had come almost exclusively with Club Stogie, so I couldn't understand how this pass was so stressful for my friend.

I went over and helped them with puts and takes. And then it began. "They say that the Fuente Anejo doesn't match up exactly with the Tatuaje West Coast". ...."Now they say that the Padron 1964 doesn't have the same value as a whatever". My friend was completely frazzled, and I was pis$ed off at a group of cigar people I don't even know.

Like Al said earlier in the thread, this is supposed to be fun. Err on the side of giving better "value" if you don't want to be stressed, but bottom line....If you (generic "you", not singling anyone out) are all worked up about getting/giving value to the point where it takes the fun out of it, then maybe passes and Pifs aren't for you.

[massphatness]

I'm in general agreement with Shawn, Al, Tom and others about just chillaxin' and not getting worked up over a pass. I try to keep my house in order. When I go to bed at night, I sleep well. When I wake up in the morning, I have no problem looking myself in the eye.

I'm posting only 'cuz I love Tom's use of the word "toadies". :)

[ahc4353]

I think there is a "approval" pass on CA. Never seen one like that before where everyone has to give the OK before it can move.

Certainly not my style but if it works who am I to say.

[icehog3]

I think there is a "approval" pass on CA. Never seen one like that before where everyone has to give the OK before it can move.

Certainly not my style but if it works who am I to say.

Yes, that pass has rules similar to the ones I described, though I make no "declarations of toadies" there.

All the pass participators agreed on the rules, so that is OK with all of them. That being said, I would not participate in a pass where I had to wait for the pass-starter's approval over my puts and takes. :2

[Wolfgang]

When it comes to passes Members involved such as Tom, Al, Vin, or Shawn, You guys have a reputation wherever you go (be it good or bad I'm not sure :ss) this is more applicable to first time passers or people that do not have such a following. I'm not saying don't trust the newbie I'm just saying you have to EARN trust just like respect no matter what cell block your from.

[icehog3]

When it comes to passes Members involved such as Tom, Al, Vin, or Shawn, You guys have a reputation wherever you go (be it good or bad I'm not sure :ss) this is more applicable to first time passers or people that do not have such a following. I'm not saying don't trust the newbie I'm just saying you have to EARN trust just like respect no matter what cell block your from.

Definitely truth in what you say, Simeon.... but it seemed to me that things usually got ironed out with honest newb mistakes, and the very few "mooches" we saw got called out quickly too. I would hate to see us go the route some other boards have where all puts and takes are subject to an official approval process, etc.....but I also understand where you're coming from. :)

[Wolfgang]

"I would hate to see us go the route some other boards have where all puts and takes are subject to an official approval process"

Agreed. 100% that would be too much work for you guys and you have already gone WAY out of your way to give us CA.

By the way, THANK YOU!

[Silound]

I think that, since money is merely a concept for bartering, that cost doesn't matter in the long run. Typically, I simply measure the overall value and difficulty of finding sticks in a rough sense, then I overvalue it by a large amount. I figure the dollar values don't matter because there's nothing static about them. Besides which, a $50 cigar no one wants really has no value, while a $4 cigar everyone wants has a lot of value.

I try to follow the concept of always give more than you get, and you'll always be able to get when you want it next. That doesn't mean I can simply demand something and get it; it does mean if I'm looking for something, odds are someone I've bombed or traded with in the past is going to be willing to hook me up.


More importantly, I occasionally feel like making someone go "Woah!" hence I sometimes dish out way more than I get just for the fun of it. :)

[maddman]

Forums have a very long memory of givers and takers, it all works it self on just dont be on the wrong end. Give take what you think is right.