B&M Pricing

[Hem]

Alright, so there's this little place I go to in Tampa that, for me, is the holy grail of HTF and Limited Cigars. They have everything you could think of, Tat Monsters, GOF, Padron, Old Man and the C, tons of Lost City, Opus Coffins, Illusione, Padrons, Liga and Viaje limited on the regular...just everything. It's actually a smaller and locally owned B&M and the owner is a great guy who always gives me 10% off my total purchase. My only qualm is there pricing...or maybe it's just me?

I was dreaming while staring at his vast Opus Coffins (Scorpion, Love Affair, Shark, A, Lancero, ect) and Tat Monsters yesterday when I finally got the courage up to ask how much.

$50 a piece for the Opus Coffins...and $29.99 for a Tat Drac, I didn't even start asking about the stuff behind the glass cases in the humi and promptly picked up a Tat Black Tubo ($11) and MJ12 ($10) and left. It just seemed like a lot to me, is this fair B&M pricing?

[pnoon]

Alright, so there's this little place I go to in Tampa that, for me, is the holy grail of HTF and Limited Cigars. They have everything you could think of, Tat Monsters, GOF, Padron, Old Man and the C, tons of Lost City, Opus Coffins, Illusione, Padrons, Liga and Viaje limited on the regular...just everything. It's actually a smaller and locally owned B&M and the owner is a great guy who always gives me 10% off my total purchase. My only qualm is there pricing...or maybe it's just me?

I was dreaming while staring at his vast Opus Coffins (Scorpion, Love Affair, Shark, A, Lancero, ect) and Tat Monsters yesterday when I finally got the courage up to ask how much.

$50 a piece for the Opus Coffins...and $29.99 for a Tat Drac, I didn't even start asking about the stuff behind the glass cases in the humi and promptly picked up a Tat Black Tubo ($11) and MJ12 ($10) and left. It just seemed like a lot to me, is this fair B&M pricing?
Fair is relative.
Keep in mind he has to pay rent and taxes in addition to the cigars.

How much profit does he need to make in order to earn a living and stay in business? Hard to say.

[pektel]

does he have any tat franks?
Posted via Mobile Device

[pektel]

^and dibs on one or two if he does :)
Posted via Mobile Device

[Bill86]

I'm assuming the Drac premium is solely because they still have them and probably VERY few B&M's still have those in stock. It was a terrible stick IMHO, I put it down half way. But that is besides the point. Opus X are usually wildly overpriced at B&M's so that's kind of expected. It also would depend what is in those coffins, surely he is charging too much but maybe it isn't as bad as you would think. But I guess if he's willing to charge $30 for a $13 stick.......

Probably better just to shop online.

[Hem]

Fair is relative.
Keep in mind he has to pay rent and taxes in addition to the cigars.

How much profit does he need to make in order to earn a living and stay in business? Hard to say.

Good point. I guess I was just trying to see if the pricing was pretty much the same all around or if these were higher. He's a great guy and owns the craft beer store next door as well. He offers a GREAT selection of craft beers on tap in the cigar bar and it's an awesome lounge, I couldn't picture going anywhere else.

[pnoon]

I'm assuming the Drac premium is solely because they still have them and probably VERY few B&M's still have those in stock. It was a terrible stick IMHO, I put it down half way. But that is besides the point. Opus X are usually wildly overpriced at B&M's so that's kind of expected. It also would depend what is in those coffins, surely he is charging too much but maybe it isn't as bad as you would think. But I guess if he's willing to charge $30 for a $13 stick.......

Probably better just to shop online.

On a sample of one? :sh

I'm not saying the Drac is good or bad. I've never had one. I just don't see the logic in drawing conclusions on a sample of a single stick.
:2

[pektel]

while i understand what peter is saying, i'd have to draw a proverbial line in the sand when it comes to these highly coveted tat monsters. at the sheer exclusivity and supposed quality of those cigars, one should expect a similar experience out of each stick. is that the case? dunno. never smoked one either. but when i pick up something like a behike, i never get a 'bad stick'. and i don't expect to, based on production numbers and implied quality.
Posted via Mobile Device

[area51]

Its probably just markup. He's selling it for what he knows people are going to pay for it + taxes and all that stuff. It's nice to support B&Ms but they've got to support you as well.

[icehog3]

I call shotgun.

[chaase321]

Its probably just markup. He's selling it for what he knows people are going to pay for it + taxes and all that stuff. It's nice to support B&Ms but they've got to support you as well.

Agreed ^^

Also, he is supporting you with 10% off, and the price on the MJ12 and the Black Tubo really didn't seem off from what other B&M's charge.

I look at it this way...you go there for a few sticks and to support the B&M, if you go there often, they usually help you out a little (i.e the 10%). As for HTF sticks...well, they are HTF, if you really want them then you will probably pay the mark-up. Remember, a lot of us cannot get our hands on them and I'm sure someone on this forum would pay those prices. Plus, you have the advantage of seeing them in person at the B&M before purchasing, and you have the advantage of taking a bad experience back to the B&M if something goes wrong, where, I'm sure they will help make it right.

my :2

[neoflex]

On a sample of one? :sh

I'm not saying the Drac is good or bad. I've never had one. I just don't see the logic in drawing conclusions on a sample of a single stick.
:2

The Drac was lackluster when compared to the rest of the Monster Series or the rest of the Tat line for that matter but age did improve it slightly. Overall though the Drac just was not very impressive although even fresh I personally didn't think they were bad enough to put down early albeit they were a little green at release. They just were not a good example of a Tat in my opinion as it is rare for me to find a stick in the line whether it be regular production or limited that does not impress but I am a self admitted Tat Ho.:D
Limited edition Opus always tend to be priced high. Retail on that stuff is high to begin with and than once it hits some retailers they become even more pricey. $29.99 is very high in my opinion for a Drac even with it being an out of production limited but again as PNoon said it's all relative. I know a bunch of guys that would jump on that all day. The Frank which was the best in the series goes on average lately for $30 a stick which is high for me but guys manage to unload them online in a matter of hours so clearly I am just a cheap ass.:r They were good but just not $30 a stick good. My cap for most smokes is $20 a stick and even than those purchases are far and few in between.

[Silound]

B&M shops are a strange beast. I know, I ran one for several years. Pricing is 100% undeniably at the sole discretion of the owner or manager. At the very least, as Peter said, the prices will reflect what it costs him to stay in business. At the most, whatever wild hairs or whims he has can be reflected in the price as well.

I will say this about discounts though...

To a buyer, a 10% discount may seem kind of weak, I agree. I used to think 10% was a joke, I mean it barely covered sales tax, right? But then I did the math, and suddenly realized I was VERY wrong.

To give an example:

In LA, cigars are taxed at 20% of invoice cost. So take the invoice cost per stick (minus SCHIP) and multiply it by 2.20 (known as keystone markup, or 100% markup), then re-add the SCHIP tax to find out the final price. So if the invoice cost is $4.90 per cigar (SCHIP included):

4.90 - 0.40 = 4.50/cigar
(4.50 cost x 2.20) + 0.40 = $10.30/cigar before sales tax and discount
10.30 * 0.90 = $9.27/cigar after discount before sales tax

Now considering the owner paid 4.50 for the cigar, and 1.30 in combined taxes:

9.27 - 4.50 - 0.90 - 0.40 = $3.47

The owner has taken a staggering 23% reduction in his or her profit BEFORE even paying any bills.


So yes, a 10% discount is a LOT of discount for a B&M to give out. If everyone got that 10% on everything, the shop would only be pulling in 77% of the total gross profit available, which is a huge loss for any business. And remember that the government isn't going to give the owner a 10% discount on taxes. The landlord and utility companies aren't going to give 10% off rent and power. That 10% comes entirely out of his profit margin.

[Hem]

I do appreciate the 10% and he takes great care of his customers, one of the best B&M owners I have ever met without a doubt. A couple of weeks ago at checkout he asks me if I have tried a couple of cigars (El Tiante and the other name slips my memory) I was unfamiliar with, when I said no he grabbed them and threw them in my baggy for free. Absolutely a place I will continue to go to and tell my friends about!

I had just never seen sticks like that in person and wondered if the pricing was the same all around. Now I see that the idea of a set price on HTF cigars is relative at best. Appreciate the insight guys and no Pektel, I didn't see any Franks in there but I know he takes phone orders so if anyone is seriously interested in some of his stuff just let me know and I'll shoot you his number.

[Bill86]

On a sample of one? :sh

I'm not saying the Drac is good or bad. I've never had one. I just don't see the logic in drawing conclusions on a sample of a single stick.
:2

You do make a good point, but I mean a ~$15 stick has to suck pretty damn badly for me to put it down half way. I might have actually tossed it quicker thinking about it. I just kept thinking why do people like these? Usually I try to tough it through, even to the point of sickness :r, just in case it goes somewhere. But there was NOTHING there. Air...musty leathery air.

That and I'm also basing my opinion on the general feedback of it being a lackluster "monster release" so I guess you can say I borrowed everyone else's opinion as well when making my conclusion. I can prove this by the fact that it is the least gouged Monster release :lr (Franks are now widely accepted as $30-$35 sticks. Boris can still get $23-$25. Face/Wolfy and Drac are still stuck at release prices, maybe a bit more if you're desperate.)

So I guess my methods are probably a bit sketchy but I usually get the desired result despite my often poor ways of going at it. I probably should explain some of my posts a bit more thoroughly.

I do know when I taste a quality cigar, I can't guarantee it's for me or something I like but I can at least acknowledge why some people would. This was not it.

while i understand what peter is saying, i'd have to draw a proverbial line in the sand when it comes to these highly coveted tat monsters. at the sheer exclusivity and supposed quality of those cigars, one should expect a similar experience out of each stick. is that the case? dunno. never smoked one either. but when i pick up something like a behike, i never get a 'bad stick'. and i don't expect to, based on production numbers and implied quality.
Posted via Mobile Device

That is also exactly the point, they are a HUGE hype machine, and I have to tip my hat to Pete when he thought up this scheme. How one could release half good and half so-so/bad sticks and generate so much insanity.....he needs to be working at a large marketing firm he could be making A LOT more doing that.

You sir have better luck then me. I was not impressed. At least now, I will admit there was something there....but maybe in 3-5 years. Right now I couldn't imagine having paid ~$65 or so for those 2 cigars. They weren't worth it.....yet. Now I keep hearing the 52's are better but I'll wait till I can get a 3 year old box to do further testing. I refuse to smoke another "fresh" Behike.

[pektel]

You sir have better luck then me. I was not impressed. At least now, I will admit there was something there....but maybe in 3-5 years. Right now I couldn't imagine having paid ~$65 or so for those 2 cigars. They weren't worth it.....yet. Now I keep hearing the 52's are better but I'll wait till I can get a 3 year old box to do further testing. I refuse to smoke another "fresh" Behike.


The only Behikes I've smoked have been early 2010's. Were they STELLAR? Nope. They were very good though. Not for the price they command either, but I've never had a BAD one that I would have to set down. I was just attributing the less than stellar experience to my goat palate. And diff'rent strokes. Most people seem to like the 52 the best, but I prefer the 54.

[AlohaStyle]

Compare the gouged pricing to what you bought... a Tat black tubo's MSRP is $14/cigar. You paid $11. So you actually got a good deal.

[Blak Smyth]

When I was in California last year I saw an OPusX Lancero Coffin for $60.00

[jluck]

Hell...A local "B&M"to me (actually a quicky mart that sells meth pipes two feet down from there "humidor") Has Ashtons for $30 and kuba-kuba's in the same case for $15....I chuckle, I leave...easy for me.

[CigarNut]

Its probably just markup. He's selling it for what he knows people are going to pay for it + taxes and all that stuff. It's nice to support B&Ms but they've got to support you as well.Not sure that I agree with this. A Retail store costs a lot more than an Internet-Only business.

You have to have a nice looking store rather than a warehouse
You have to pay sales people -- who have to look nice and have some experience with cigars -- rather than a stock person in a warehouse**
You need to be able to handle cash
You need humifiied display cases rather than humidified bulk storage
And so on...
Anything (not just cigars) you purchase at a B&M store is going to cost more -- that's the whole premise behind Internet businesses. They can sell for less because their costs are lower.

Just my :2

(** I know that some stores do not have experienced help but I think that they all desire experienced help)

[Subvet642]

The B&M I go to in Weymouth sells at MSRP, even Opus.

[Fia]

Not sure that I agree with this. A Retail store costs a lot more than an Internet-Only business.

You have to have a nice looking store rather than a warehouse
You have to pay sales people -- who have to look nice and have some experience with cigars -- rather than a stock person in a warehouse**
You need to be able to handle cash
You need humifiied display cases rather than humidified bulk storage
And so on...
Anything (not just cigars) you purchase at a B&M store is going to cost more -- that's the whole premise behind Internet businesses. They can sell for less because their costs are lower.

Just my :2

(** I know that some stores do not have experienced help but I think that they all desire experienced help)

All good points. I know price is important to people, but if that is all you value then one should only order via mail order/internet. If you enjoy the ability to look at your cigars before purchase, have a place to relax, camaraderie, etc then paying extra isnt so bad. Of course, there is a line when there is a premium due to the owners costs and when the owner is just gouging. :2

[pnoon]

I so hope that one day I can comprehensively evaluate the quality and ageability (is that a word?) on sampling a single cigar.
Posted via Mobile Device

[lenguamor]

Fair is relative, as Peter said.

The most expensive of Opus' current releases is around $75; how much would you expect this guy to sell those for after he invested in acquiring some, keeping them in good conditions, carrying the inventory costs, etc?

It might seem expensive to you and me, working stiffs, if we saw them in his case for $99 a year from now, but that's a matter of perspective.

[lenguamor]

All good points. I know price is important to people, but if that is all you value then one should only order via mail order/internet. If you enjoy the ability to look at your cigars before purchase, have a place to relax, camaraderie, etc then paying extra isnt so bad. Of course, there is a line when there is a premium due to the owners costs and when the owner is just gouging. :2

Excellent point.

We risk Home Depot-ing ourselves right out of good B&Ms in this industry if we aren't careful.

It's all about balance.

[Minuterice]

"rare" or "hard to find" cigars can also be over priced online. A b&m near my house always has Liga Privada No. 9's in stock for cheaper then what I can find online.

[CigarNut]

I so hope that one day I can comprehensively evaluate the quality and ageability (is that a word?) on sampling a single cigar.
Posted via Mobile DeviceI can't do it... When I purchase a new cigar I always get two or three of the exact same stick. I usually can't tell how much I like a stick in just one smoke. Further, there are times where you just get a bad stick and I want to make sure whether it's a single bad stick or if I really don't like the particular marca/vitola.

Just my :2

[icehog3]

I can't do it... When I purchase a new cigar I always get two or three of the exact same stick. I usually can't tell how much I like a stick in just one smoke. Further, there are times where you just get a bad stick and I want to make sure whether it's a single bad stick or if I really don't like the particular marca/vitola.

Just my :2

There are also cigars where the first one is good, so you buy a bunch...and the rest always suck. ;) :r

[Starscream]

There are also cigars where the first one is good, so you buy a bunch...and the rest always suck. ;) :r
Been there, done that.:D

[kelmac07]

There are also cigars where the first one is good, so you buy a bunch...and the rest always suck. ;) :r

So true!! :bh :bh

[KidRock]

After working at a local BM this post is top notch! Good job my friend!

B&M shops are a strange beast. I know, I ran one for several years. Pricing is 100% undeniably at the sole discretion of the owner or manager. At the very least, as Peter said, the prices will reflect what it costs him to stay in business. At the most, whatever wild hairs or whims he has can be reflected in the price as well.

I will say this about discounts though...

To a buyer, a 10% discount may seem kind of weak, I agree. I used to think 10% was a joke, I mean it barely covered sales tax, right? But then I did the math, and suddenly realized I was VERY wrong.

To give an example:

In LA, cigars are taxed at 20% of invoice cost. So take the invoice cost per stick (minus SCHIP) and multiply it by 2.20 (known as keystone markup, or 100% markup), then re-add the SCHIP tax to find out the final price. So if the invoice cost is $4.90 per cigar (SCHIP included):

4.90 - 0.40 = 4.50/cigar
(4.50 cost x 2.20) + 0.40 = $10.30/cigar before sales tax and discount
10.30 * 0.90 = $9.27/cigar after discount before sales tax

Now considering the owner paid 4.50 for the cigar, and 1.30 in combined taxes:

9.27 - 4.50 - 0.90 - 0.40 = $3.47

The owner has taken a staggering 23% reduction in his or her profit BEFORE even paying any bills.


So yes, a 10% discount is a LOT of discount for a B&M to give out. If everyone got that 10% on everything, the shop would only be pulling in 77% of the total gross profit available, which is a huge loss for any business. And remember that the government isn't going to give the owner a 10% discount on taxes. The landlord and utility companies aren't going to give 10% off rent and power. That 10% comes entirely out of his profit margin.

[bobarian]

Everyone knows that B&M's have better cigars so they can charge a premium! :banger

[OLS]

I just don't see the logic in drawing conclusions on a sample of a single stick.
:2
Aw, Come on, I do it all the time.

Remember OP that the measure of what a cigar is worth to a particular B&M is what he or she feels the
market will bear. There is almost always a buyer for an item like those, it just might take some time.
And sooner or later the two curves of price and time DO intersect. At least with habanos.

Remember also that a lot of these HTF items in stores might as well be museum pieces and are often
priced that way.
.

[Drazzil]

Personally I honestly believe it can go both ways. There is a local cigar shop that DOES NOT allow you to sit down and smoke their cigars. There is no smoking anywhere in the shop. You are expected to buy your sticks, and leave. I only go to this shop when I want to sample something (read buy three of) before I buy a box online IF my local sit down and smoke shop doesn't have it in stock. Surprisingly, the owner of this shop is the first to complain about "internet sales" stealing their "business".

When I buy a cigar at a B&M, it is for the community. No community = No sale. Its that simple for me. I have DRASTICALLY cut back on visiting local shops because I believe that they price gouge. The community has gone away.

Just my :2 .