Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?

[BHalbrooks]

Just like the Title says, I'm wondering what the good folks here think about it.

[Remo]

Always has been, probably always will be...they just happened to get caught.

[jluck]

Always has been, probably always will be...they just happened to get caught.

X2...In all levels and types of sports.:2

[BHalbrooks]

That's my thoughts. Like with Spygate. They weren't the only teams doing it, just the first to get caught.

[Remo]

Bounties may not get spoken out loud from now on, but a few grand in the pocket and a steak dinner can't be beat :tu

[taltos]

Bounties may not get spoken out loud from now on, but a few grand in the pocket and a steak dinner can't be beat :tuUntil the IRS gets involved due to undeclared income. I hope that they get the same hatred that was given the Patriots.

[Stephen]

All I know is that some dude's had to have made some coin beating the piss out of Brett Favre a couple of years ago.

[Stephen]

Until the IRS gets involved due to undeclared income.
Yep. That's going to be the biggest fallout from all of this i think.
I hope that they get the same hatred that was given the Patriots.
Spygate and this aren't even in the same league.

[E.J.]

I could not care less..... I am sure there will be some significant fines levied by the NFL, but this comes as no surprise. Been going on forever....and will continue to go on.

[E.J.]

In High School and College, the bounties are stickers on your helmet... They go out headhunting, leave a few guys withering on the ground, you can bet they'll be adding to their stamp collection. The guys in the NFL just get paid more....;)

[chippewastud79]

Less than shocked.

[forgop]

Listened to Mike and Mike a bit this morning. Over all the "outrage" about how much Warner and Favre got hit, they said there weren't any hits that were illegal.

[Subvet642]

Let's see...people getting paid to intentionally injure someone...sounds like a felony to me. Actually, it sounds like several felonies.

[Stephen]

Let's see...people getting paid to intentionally injure someone...sounds like a felony to me. Actually, it sounds like several felonies.
Care to explain hockey, boxing, MMA, et al.?

[Subvet642]

Care to explain hockey, boxing, MMA, et al.?

It all has to do with intent. The object of hockey is not to harm anyone, it is to score more points than your opponent. The object of boxing, like all such sports, is to likewise score more points than the opponent. If the intent is to cause physical harm, then that is a felony. One can't even say that they gave consent to be harmed, because a person cannot legally give that consent. Injuries incidental to a particular sport are accidents, but when someone is targeted for harm...well, what would you call it?

[14holestogie]

I think Gregg Williams may need a paper route. :)

[icantbejon]

I think its relatively shady...because they are already getting paid to basically hurt someone so the added incentive seems unneeded. That being said, I'm not even a little bit shocked and not "outraged" as a fan. I realize it's part of the game and that's just how it works.

[LockOut]

IMHO...its football. Don't like getting hit, dont play football. Teams would gun for other teams star players if there was money on the line or not. College players do it for a sticker on the helmet. Part of being a good player is taking the extra hit or the cheap shot getting up and continuing to make good plays.

To top it all off I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who makes what these guys make; and then strikes since it's not good enough.

[Stephen]

It all has to do with intent. The object of hockey is not to harm anyone, it is to score more points than your opponent. The object of boxing, like all such sports, is to likewise score more points than the opponent. If the intent is to cause physical harm, then that is a felony. One can't even say that they gave consent to be harmed, because a person cannot legally give that consent. Injuries incidental to a particular sport are accidents, but when someone is targeted for harm...well, what would you call it?
1. The object of the game is to win; whether it be hockey, boxing, football, or tiddlywinks. What boxer (unless we're talking about Pretty Boy Floyd) goes in thinking, "gee, I hope to outpoint my opponenet"?

2. If it's done within the confines (rules) of the game, it isn't illegal, period.

3. As much as the league already babies the offense, if anything out of the ordinary was happening on the playing field wouldn't it have been reflected in fines, suspensions, or other penalties?

Sorry, it isn't against the rules to hit someone hard.:sh

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Until the IRS gets involved due to undeclared income. I hope that they get the same hatred that was given the Patriots.

Yeah the steaks and cash would be income for the players, compensation really. Unless they some how can structure it as "meals and entertainment" or some other avoidance measure. I'd imagine it would be a tax deductable business expense for the team though.

[Subvet642]

1. The object of the game is to win; whether it be hockey, boxing, football, or tiddlywinks. What boxer (unless we're talking about Pretty Boy Floyd) goes in thinking, "gee, I hope to outpoint my opponent"?

2. If it's done within the confines (rules) of the game, it isn't illegal, period.

3. As much as the league already babies the offense, if anything out of the ordinary was happening on the playing field wouldn't it have been reflected in fines, suspensions, or other penalties?

Sorry, it isn't against the rules to hit someone hard.:sh

Pretty Boy Floyd was a gangster, not a boxer, but you may be on to something: why not just issue everybody pistols?

[Stephen]

It all has to do with intent. The object of hockey is not to harm anyone, it is to score more points than your opponent.
I'm not exactly up to speed with all the hockey rules, so would you please tell me how many points this (http://vodpod.com/watch/543202-jessie-boulerice-v-aaron-downey-hockey-fight) is worth? Thanks.

[Stephen]

why not just issue everybody pistols?
Because everyone would shoot your straw man.

[Wanger]

I have to agree with Subvet on this one. I love to see a hard hit just as much as anyone, but when you're paying guys to take out Player X, Y, or Z, that's just not right, IMO. And before you jump into it, yes, I've played the game. I never went out on the field with the intent to injure someone.

I'm sure that there are other teams that have done this, too. But it just doesn't have a place in the game, IMO. Hit them hard, bruise them up, and make them think about getting hit and change the decisions they're going to make to what you want them to do. Bounty's tell me that you don't think you can beat the other team fairly, without trying to injure the players on the other team. That's what this is about. It's not about hitting someone hard. It's about the intent to cause a physical injury and end their game (and potentially season/career, if they get hurt badly enough).

One of the things I've heard in listening to some sports talk about this is that the NFL is behind the 8ball here. They are being sued by former (and current) players for failing to protect them enough. Goodell really has no choice but to drop the hammer on Williams/et al. A slap on the wrist will not be enough, and would only add fuel to the pending lawsuits. Not only that, they warned them when they investigated previously to NOT do it (at least as far as I know).

[Subvet642]

Because everyone would shoot your straw man.

That's not a "Straw Man" argument, it's Reductio Ad Absurdum, but it sure sounded clever. :D

[Subvet642]

I'm not exactly up to speed with all the hockey rules, so would you please tell me how many points this (http://vodpod.com/watch/543202-jessie-boulerice-v-aaron-downey-hockey-fight) is worth? Thanks.

None, of course.

[jluck]

I have watched this happen at the grade school level. Theres one "school" on the local reservation that always targets the best players of other teams with "incentives" to do so.

At the pro leval....Yea it's uncool but It's entertainment, Great for drama and media buzz. It keeps people talking about it thus bringing in money. Next thing you know they will find performance enhancing drugs in pro sports.;)

[Stephen]

I have to agree with Subvet on this one. I love to see a hard hit just as much as anyone, but when you're paying guys to take out Player X, Y, or Z, that's just not right, IMO. And before you jump into it, yes, I've played the game. I never went out on the field with the intent to injure someone.

I'm sure that there are other teams that have done this, too. But it just doesn't have a place in the game, IMO. Hit them hard, bruise them up, and make them think about getting hit and change the decisions they're going to make to what you want them to do. Bounty's tell me that you don't think you can beat the other team fairly, without trying to injure the players on the other team. That's what this is about. It's not about hitting someone hard. It's about the intent to cause a physical injury and end their game (and potentially season/career, if they get hurt badly enough).

One of the things I've heard in listening to some sports talk about this is that the NFL is behind the 8ball here. They are being sued by former (and current) players for failing to protect them enough. Goodell really has no choice but to drop the hammer on Williams/et al. A slap on the wrist will not be enough, and would only add fuel to the pending lawsuits. Not only that, they warned them when they investigated previously to NOT do it (at least as far as I know).
Playing within the rules of the game, you're just as likely to injure someone on a vicious hit, intent or no, wouldn't you agree? That's why this is politics run amuck and nothing more. People are getting caught up with, "intent" and not, "applicability." :2

[Stephen]

That's not a "Straw Man" argument, it's Reductio Ad Absurdum, but it sure sounded clever. :D
Must've suffered one too many blows to the head.:D

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Yeah the steaks and cash would be income for the players, compensation really. Unless they some how can structure it as "meals and entertainment" or some other avoidance measure. I'd imagine it would be a tax deductable business expense for the team though.

I guess the players could possible structure the payments as "eligible" ordinary dividends, which would be taxed at long-term capital gain tax rates, which would surely be better than prizes and award taxe rates. Other than that, they will pay taxes on the payments recieved in some fashion. With the payments most likely being very large, it's worth it for the IRS to poke their noses around.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

I don't have a problem with bounty payments. Makes for interesting football. The problem is with the rules and shitty calls being made.

[Wanger]

Playing within the rules of the game, you're just as likely to injure someone on a vicious hit, intent or no, wouldn't you agree? That's why this is politics run amuck and nothing more. People are getting caught up with, "intent" and not, "applicability." :2

I will say yes and no to that one. A vicious, clean body shot is different that a targeted shot to a knee or ankle (or other body part, for that matter) or a head shot. If a guy has it in his mind that he wants to collect a bounty, then the shots he takes are going to be targeted differently, IMO. It's not as likely to be the "clean", textbook way that you are supposed to be tackling. It's going to be a shoulder or forearm to the leg. It's going to be a blindside hit that's borderline in legality. Now the result of this targeting may end up with more missed tackles.

I don't personally view it as politics run amok. I guess I'm just one of those that would rather the game be played clean, without the intent to injure. Yes, I used "intent" again. Hit them hard and clean and help them back up. There's a lot of money at stake for everyone on the field. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to end someone's career with something like that.

I will say that it would help the argument to whether it made a difference if we knew what players were targeted and if bountys were actually paid out. Even though I am a Vikings fan, it sure seemed like they got away with a lot of questionable hits on the old man in that title game. But we still had a chance to win, and blew it. The coach made a typical bungling move (12 men in the huddle), and called a pass play that ended up with the old man doing what he did best...end games with a critical interception.:rolleyes:

[Sauer Grapes]

Until the IRS gets involved due to undeclared income. I hope that they get the same hatred that was given the Patriots.

This is different than spy gate in many ways. In some ways it is much worse (mainly that they were trying to injure opposing players). In some ways it isn't as bad (it didn't likely change the outcome of many games, if any).

Sure, they saints have been "good" for several years, but they haven't built a dynasty on cheating.

Neither this or spy gate are acceptable.

[Stephen]

I will say yes and no to that one. A vicious, clean body shot is different that a targeted shot to a knee or ankle (or other body part, for that matter) or a head shot. If a guy has it in his mind that he wants to collect a bounty, then the shots he takes are going to be targeted differently, IMO. It's not as likely to be the "clean", textbook way that you are supposed to be tackling. It's going to be a shoulder or forearm to the leg. It's going to be a blindside hit that's borderline in legality. Now the result of this targeting may end up with more missed tackles.
I'd agree with most of this. The parts that I don't aren't pertinent to the current discussion.
I don't personally view it as politics run amok. I guess I'm just one of those that would rather the game be played clean, without the intent to injure. Yes, I used "intent" again. Hit them hard and clean and help them back up. There's a lot of money at stake for everyone on the field. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to end someone's career with something like that.
It'd be interesting to see how many (if any) players suffered a season or career ending injury while playing the Saints during Greg Williams tenure. And from those, how many could be attested to a, "questionable" hit/tackle.
I will say that it would help the argument to whether it made a difference if we knew what players were targeted and if bountys were actually paid out. Even though I am a Vikings fan, it sure seemed like they got away with a lot of questionable hits on the old man in that title game. But we still had a chance to win, and blew it. The coach made a typical bungling move (12 men in the huddle), and called a pass play that ended up with the old man doing what he did best...end games with a critical interception.:rolleyes:
Yep. I mentioned Favre earlier. He was so banged up that night he could only send pictures of his legs and not his junk.:r

[E.J.]

I don't believe that any of these people were going after knees ect. I am not sure there is a player in the NFL that is going to intentionally take out someone's ACL or the like, I just don't believe that.

I do believe that they went out to physically hurt them....to put them out of the game, not the next game, the game they were playing. They all know it is a livelihood, I do not believe they want to take that from someone who is part of that brotherhood. Just my opinion, but it is how I feel. If I hear someone say, sure, we were trying to blow up ankles, knees ect....I'll be convinced.

I also believe that the object of the game, for some, is to hurt other people, pure and simple. Not season ending, but game ending.

[goomer]

Listened to Mike and Mike a bit this morning. Over all the "outrage" about how much Warner and Favre got hit, they said there weren't any hits that were illegal.

There were some hit that we're definately illegal. He was hit a few times way after the whistle was blown. The refs excuse after was the crowd noise was so loud they didn't know if the defensive player could hear the whistle. Since when did that matter? The saints are a dirty team. The refs let them get away with it for that playoff season.

[Pseudosacred]

I really don't see the problem. I feel like every defensive player is out to "injure" the QB of the opposite team. It's just what you want to do.

[oooo35980]

Seems like tackling someone with the intent of stopping the play and tackling someone with the intent to cause serious bodily harm are two different things and should be treated as such :2

[shilala]

There's two angles in this.
On the players trying to knock a guy out of the game, that's much ado about nothing. If a defensive player on my team isn't hurting guys, he isn't playing hard enough. Guys heal, and they know full well that any given play could be their last one. That's why they work so hard to be at their pinnacle, physically speaking. Football is not a sport for Dr. Spock-raised tittie-boys. It's violent. Everyone is not a winner.

The second prong is that things like this are to be kept quiet. If it's outed, now you've made the NFL brand liable. The lawyers will be swirling like buzzards over a carcass in no time flat and they'll dig every single underpaid, overhurt NFL player that ever walked a field out of bars and off their couches. This thing is going to cost the NFL millions and it has just got off the ground. You think the concussion lawsuit is huge? This lawsuit will include every scrape, nick, bruise or bump a player ever got. The repercussions are endless.

[BHalbrooks]

Until the IRS gets involved due to undeclared income. I hope that they get the same hatred that was given the Patriots.
They STILL get called cheaters. Hell, I heard plenty of times they got to the Super Bowl this year because they cheated.
I don't believe that any of these people were going after knees ect. I am not sure there is a player in the NFL that is going to intentionally take out someone's ACL or the like, I just don't believe that.

I also believe that the object of the game, for some, is to hurt other people, pure and simple. Not season ending, but game ending.
Bernard Pollard said he did, and he liked hurting Patriots players.

[shilala]

I was just thinking about how deep this "bounty" thing goes. College and High School players get a sticker on their helmet for big plays. If a kid knocks the opposing team's starting QB out of the game, you can sure bet he's gonna get a sticker. :tu

[E.J.]

Bernard Pollard said he did, and he liked hurting Patriots players.

:confused:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/01/04/bernard-pollard-reflects-on-terrible-wes-welker-injury/

Seems like he felt pretty unlucky about his situation, calling the injuries terrible and not being pleased at all about them.... I couldn't find anything on him saying he went out to intentionally injure....

Do you have any links to back up your statements?

[E.J.]

I was just thinking about how deep this "bounty" thing goes. College and High School players get a sticker on their helmet for big plays. If a kid knocks the opposing team's starting QB out of the game, you can sure bet he's gonna get a sticker. :tu

Welcome to page 1, Scott....:r:r:r

In High School and College, the bounties are stickers on your helmet... They go out headhunting, leave a few guys withering on the ground, you can bet they'll be adding to their stamp collection. The guys in the NFL just get paid more....;)

[Stephen]

They STILL get called cheaters. Hell, I heard plenty of times they got to the Super Bowl this year because they cheated.
Who's stated that they're still cheating? As an aside, their pre and post Spygate playoff records are pretty telling...:2

All that being said, I STILL don't think either of these situations (Spygate, Bountygate) is as bad as what the Broncos did when they won their two Super Bowls.

[OLS]

I was a fan of the Saints piling up the defensive stats that got them to the Super Bowl, basically. Lifetime Saints fan.
Last year and this year, we turned from an opportunistic defense into a defense that couldn't stop anybody from
doing anything. That is when I know that I no longer wanted to see Greg Williams on the Saints' coaching staff.
None of this surprises me or bothers me as long as he is gone. Player development went into the $hi++er, or as Madden
calls it, 'Player Progression'. Will Smith, can't get to the QB...linebackers can't tackle, DBs can't cover...screw that guy.

[proguy747]

Until the IRS gets involved due to undeclared income. I hope that they get the same hatred that was given the Patriots.

Big difference between gambling and cheating.

[shilala]

Welcome to page 1, Scott....:r:r:r
Lol. I was pressed for time. I usually read everything before I post, I read way faster than I type. :)
You were absolutely right, by the way!!! :D

[BHalbrooks]

:confused:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/01/04/bernard-pollard-reflects-on-terrible-wes-welker-injury/

Seems like he felt pretty unlucky about his situation, calling the injuries terrible and not being pleased at all about them.... I couldn't find anything on him saying he went out to intentionally injure....

Do you have any links to back up your statements?
I haven't searched for it online. I just heard a clip from an interview after they lost saying he's ok with it, and he's also ok with the Title of "Patriot Killer".

Edit: Link on Google (http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2012/01/19/bernard-pollard-i-take-pride-in-hit-on-tom-brady/). That was the 3rd result. I didn't look past it, don't really care to haha.

Who's stated that they're still cheating? As an aside, their pre and post Spygate playoff records are pretty telling...:2

All that being said, I STILL don't think either of these situations (Spygate, Bountygate) is as bad as what the Broncos did when they won their two Super Bowls.

A lot of people that root for other teams, especially NY fans, still bring it up, saying that they're probably still cheating. I wouldn't say they aren't as good since they aren't doing it anymore. Take the D that won the 2007 SB, change it for this years, and they'd have another SB victory... Easily.

I'm not sure what they did. Fill me in?

[Stephen]

A lot of people that root for other teams, especially NY fans, still bring it up, saying that they're probably still cheating.
So fans of other teams busting chops? No offense, but whoopity damn doo. I still hear about Favre and his vicodin addiction, and his flashing his wee-wee, etc., and those things are completely irrelevant to the Packers (and have been for some time).

I wouldn't say they aren't as good since they aren't doing it anymore
Their playoff record disagrees with you, and what gives a lot of fuel to the fire as to how big of an impact it made in the Patriots winning three Super Bowls.

Take the D that won the 2007 SB, change it for this years, and they'd have another SB victory... Easily.
Ok. Except the team that won the Super Bowl in 2007 won it again this year.;)

I'm not sure what they did. Fill me in?
Grossly circumvented the salary cap which directly led them to being able to put together that team that won back-to-back Super Bowls in the late 90's. If I remember correctly they were fined alomst a million dollars and forfeited a couple of draft picks.

[E.J.]

I haven't searched for it online. I just heard a clip from an interview after they lost saying he's ok with it, and he's also ok with the Title of "Patriot Killer".

Edit: Link on Google (http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2012/01/19/bernard-pollard-i-take-pride-in-hit-on-tom-brady/). That was the 3rd result. I didn't look past it, don't really care to haha.
in?

You need to read what you are linking.... He said it was a clean hit, no malicious intent, Brady just happened to get hurt. In a nutshell....

“The hit on Brady,” Pollard said on Thursday. “Look, it’s football, at the end of the day guys get hurt every Sunday. I think the fact of the matter is that in this case it was Tom Brady. Nothing was intentional, nothing was malicious. When that happened, we had other guys go down that day and nothing happened.”

“I took pride because I didn’t do anything wrong,” Pollard said. “This is a game where anything can happen. I don’t care about recognition, I don’t care about being the face of the NFL, I’m just blessed to be able to do what I do.”

You don't care? So you make strong statements, refuting previous comments, but really don't care if they are true or to back them up.....:rolleyes:

I again ask you to find me something that says that Mr. Pollard or any other NFL play states that they are going out trying to blow up knees, ankles, ruin careers/seasons. Guys lose a season to a knee regularly, but I cannot think of a hit on a season ending play that I thought was overtly malicious or dirty.


...and just to be clear, to be okay with doing your job and having someone get a season ending injury, doesn't mean that you went out to intentionally injure/maim. It doesn't mean that you are okay with dirty plays that result in season ending injuries. It doesn't mean that you are going out trying to end guys seasons/careers.

A player can be fine with the result of a clean hit, even if it ends with an injury. Hell, these guys will be living with a lot of regret if they have to worry about every time someone gets hurt. One more time....

My statement -

I don't believe that any of these people were going after knees ect. I am not sure there is a player in the NFL that is going to intentionally take out someone's ACL or the like, I just don't believe that.

Your response, quoting my post -

Bernard Pollard said he did, and he liked hurting Patriots players.

[E.J.]

Lol. I was pressed for time. I usually read everything before I post, I read way faster than I type. :)
You were absolutely right, by the way!!! :D

I am actually surprised that it hasn't come up with the national media. It seems like a clear correlation to me and I don't think a d-coordinator saying to his players that the object of the game plan is to hit certain players over and over and over, "put them on the bench." Hell, I think it is a solid gameplan.

I think the issues appears to be a reward for success.....

[shilala]

Football is acted out like a strategical war metaphor. I think that strategy plays right down the line, tighter and tighter, until anything goes, depending on the circumstances and players involved.
Could a rivalry or game become so intense that a player is directed or takes it upon himself to break someone's knee? Hell yeah. The player will likely feel bad about it later unless he's of James Harrison psycho ilk.
Honestly, I think kids at the high school level are far likelier to hurt someone on purpose than at the NFL level. At the NFL level there's some professional courtesy expressed or implied because there is SO much on the line. While a game-ending injury might be applauded, a career-ender would not. Guys know what kind of hits produce what type of injuries, they're certainly not stupid.
If the bounty thing is dangerous, it's far more dangerous at high school level than in the NFL, for sure.

[Stephen]

Football is acted out like a strategical war metaphor. I think that strategy plays right down the line, tighter and tighter, until anything goes, depending on the circumstances and players involved.
Could a rivalry or game become so intense that a player is directed or takes it upon himself to break someone's knee? Hell yeah. The player will likely feel bad about it later unless he's of James Harrison psycho ilk.
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsm5t04Bzy1qawhp7o1_500.jpg
Honestly, I think kids at the high school level are far likelier to hurt someone on purpose than at the NFL level. At the NFL level there's some professional courtesy expressed or implied because there is SO much on the line. While a game-ending injury might be applauded, a career-ender would not.
Well, unless you're Michael Irvin, and it happens in Philadelphia...:gary

[Gophernut]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82535c4d/article/peterson-is-latest-opponent-to-call-out-saints-for-dirty-play
From this past season. Maybe there is something to this story. I understand that you go after the "weak link" but if you're intentionally trying to hurt a player, than it's just dirty. Don't care if you get paid for it or not. Sticker, steak, bounty, ice cream cone, whatever. You shouldn't play to do others harm.

[shilala]

Well, unless you're Michael Irvin, and it happens in Philadelphia...:gary
Who wasn't happy to see Michael Irvin gone? I rest my case. ;)

[Wanger]

Football is acted out like a strategical war metaphor. I think that strategy plays right down the line, tighter and tighter, until anything goes, depending on the circumstances and players involved.
Could a rivalry or game become so intense that a player is directed or takes it upon himself to break someone's knee? Hell yeah. The player will likely feel bad about it later unless he's of James Harrison psycho ilk.
Honestly, I think kids at the high school level are far likelier to hurt someone on purpose than at the NFL level. At the NFL level there's some professional courtesy expressed or implied because there is SO much on the line. While a game-ending injury might be applauded, a career-ender would not. Guys know what kind of hits produce what type of injuries, they're certainly not stupid.
If the bounty thing is dangerous, it's far more dangerous at high school level than in the NFL, for sure.

My opinion is that you're giving a lot of those guys way too much credit, in regards to the section I bolded. There may be some smart guys out there on the field, but I'm sure there are plenty that are probably lucky they graduated high school.

I can see where you're coming from, Scott, but I don't know that hs players necessarily have the skill (or power, for the most part...at least not your "average" hs player) to deliver an injury causing blow, unless it's something like a completely blind/cheap shot. They might actually be more likely to hurt htemselves while trying to hurt an opponenet.

Now, in regards to professional courtesy, wouldn't that honestly preclude them from actually participating in the bounty system? These guys beat their bodies up, to start with, and adding an injury that could potentially cause harm down the line just adds to that. IMO, that's not professional courtesy. And because of what's at stake ($$$$), that would seem to be something that goes to the opposite of what you're saying. The high $$$ contracts could cause a player to take those shots, with the hopes of parlaying being a "big hitter" into a big contract. I just don't think the NFL needs to add fuel to the fire by condoning bounties.

I seem to be in the minority here in the fact that I think this was a horrible practice. Just not a cool practice, IMO. Never has been, never will be. Yes, injuries will always be part of sports, but going out to cause them should not be (with the obvious exceptions of things like boxing and MMA). As someone said, if they happen during the natural course of a clean play, then so be it. We can all accept that. To me it's all about the intent.

Who wasn't happy to see Michael Irvin gone? I rest my case. ;)

Just meant we had to hear him talk more. :rolleyes:

[shilala]

My opinion is that you're giving a lot of those guys way too much credit, in regards to the section I bolded. There may be some smart guys out there on the field, but I'm sure there are plenty that are probably lucky they graduated high school.

I can see where you're coming from, Scott, but I don't know that hs players necessarily have the skill (or power, for the most part...at least not your "average" hs player) to deliver an injury causing blow, unless it's something like a completely blind/cheap shot. They might actually be more likely to hurt htemselves while trying to hurt an opponenet.

Now, in regards to professional courtesy, wouldn't that honestly preclude them from actually participating in the bounty system? These guys beat their bodies up, to start with, and adding an injury that could potentially cause harm down the line just adds to that. IMO, that's not professional courtesy. And because of what's at stake ($$$$), that would seem to be something that goes to the opposite of what you're saying. The high $$$ contracts could cause a player to take those shots, with the hopes of parlaying being a "big hitter" into a big contract. I just don't think the NFL needs to add fuel to the fire by condoning bounties.

I seem to be in the minority here in the fact that I think this was a horrible practice. Just not a cool practice, IMO. Never has been, never will be. Yes, injuries will always be part of sports, but going out to cause them should not be (with the obvious exceptions of things like boxing and MMA). As someone said, if they happen during the natural course of a clean play, then so be it. We can all accept that. To me it's all about the intent.



Just meant we had to hear him talk more. :rolleyes:
I honestly think you and I are talking about the same thing. We're just unclear about where these "lines" are. When I mentioned "smart", I didn't mean educated. I meant that they have an excellent command of their position and all things related.
I can see where your disdain for purposely harming someone would come from, and I share it. When I step on a football field, I leave that at home. Same as any other sport, I'll compete until I can't carry my dead ass off the field. It's competition.
Injury, getting hurt and hurting the other guy is part of football. Knocking a specific player out of the game has always been, and will always be part of the strategy of the game. Disagreeing with that is fine, but it doesn't change that it's what football is. It's why we watch it. Who doesn't cringe, hoot or get a rush when a wide receiver comes over the middle, catches a ball and gets hit and does three end-over-ends before he hits the grass? The defender could have just as well let him land and wrapped him up, but that's not how the game is played. Receivers know there's a price to pay for going over the middle, and fans appreciate a guy who has the nads to go take that hit.
I do agree with you that it gets out of hand. The Adrian Petersen link, for instance. His ankle is hurt and guys are trying to twist it in the pile. That's chickensh1t, and it'll get taken care of during the course of the game. The guy that did it is going to pay the price with a shot in the chin, finger in the eye, you name it.

On the high school level, kids have no clue how to avoid wrecking another kid for life. One chop block or low hit on a planted foot can ruin someone forever. They don't get that. They don't have any idea what kind of hits can (and do) cause ankles and knees to get blown out. They spear and jam their own necks because they think their gear is armor and they're immortal. My point wasn't that they know HOW to cause a huge injury on purpose, it's that they don't know how to AVOID causing a huge injury.
They'll also throw their bodies around with wreckless abandon because everyone is immortal when they're that age. :)

How painful is it that Michael Irvin ended up in a postgame show? :lr

[Wanger]

I honestly think you and I are talking about the same thing. We're just unclear about where these "lines" are. When I mentioned "smart", I didn't mean educated. I meant that they have an excellent command of their position and all things related.
I can see where your disdain for purposely harming someone would come from, and I share it. When I step on a football field, I leave that at home. Same as any other sport, I'll compete until I can't carry my dead ass off the field. It's competition.
Injury, getting hurt and hurting the other guy is part of football. Knocking a specific player out of the game has always been, and will always be part of the strategy of the game. Disagreeing with that is fine, but it doesn't change that it's what football is. It's why we watch it. Who doesn't cringe, hoot or get a rush when a wide receiver comes over the middle, catches a ball and gets hit and does three end-over-ends before he hits the grass? The defender could have just as well let him land and wrapped him up, but that's not how the game is played. Receivers know there's a price to pay for going over the middle, and fans appreciate a guy who has the nads to go take that hit.
I do agree with you that it gets out of hand. The Adrian Petersen link, for instance. His ankle is hurt and guys are trying to twist it in the pile. That's chickensh1t, and it'll get taken care of during the course of the game. The guy that did it is going to pay the price with a shot in the chin, finger in the eye, you name it.


It's definitely a fine line here, but wherever you want to place the line, I'm against the implied headhunting that a bounty system has. A clean, hard shot (within the standards of a "natural play"), is something I love to see. I also love seeing the guys help each other up after such a shot, as well. What I don't like is guys taking (at least) borderline cheap shots, with the intention of causing an injury to get the opposing player out of the game. It's one thing if your QB is running for his life and getting battered because his o-line sucks, but another when the defensive players are taking those 2-3+ extra steps to get a shot on him to injure him. I think that's where my issue with the bounties lie. The perception that the players will take those cheap shots to be able to collect the payments.

As for players having the body control necessary to deliver a "minor" injury vs a major one goes...have you watched how much "control" a lot of the d-backs (and linebackers, for that matter) in the league have? LMAO. Seriously, though, I do agree that they have a greater body awareness and control than your "average" athlete. However, with the speed these guys are moving at, and the force they deliver, it's not as simple as having great body control and awareness. And, for that matter, they're not thinking "if I hit him here, it'll only cause minor damage to this part of his body, which will heal in x amount of time" when they go to make a play. They're thinking "hit hard, take him out".

I guess the main point I haven't been able to get across is that having an "official" bounty program takes away from the integrity of clean/pure competition in the sport, which is something I truly value.

[shilala]

It's definitely a fine line here, but wherever you want to place the line, I'm against the implied headhunting that a bounty system has. A clean, hard shot (within the standards of a "natural play"), is something I love to see. I also love seeing the guys help each other up after such a shot, as well. What I don't like is guys taking (at least) borderline cheap shots, with the intention of causing an injury to get the opposing player out of the game. It's one thing if your QB is running for his life and getting battered because his o-line sucks, but another when the defensive players are taking those 2-3+ extra steps to get a shot on him to injure him. I think that's where my issue with the bounties lie. The perception that the players will take those cheap shots to be able to collect the payments.

As for players having the body control necessary to deliver a "minor" injury vs a major one goes...have you watched how much "control" a lot of the d-backs (and linebackers, for that matter) in the league have? LMAO. Seriously, though, I do agree that they have a greater body awareness and control than your "average" athlete. However, with the speed these guys are moving at, and the force they deliver, it's not as simple as having great body control and awareness. And, for that matter, they're not thinking "if I hit him here, it'll only cause minor damage to this part of his body, which will heal in x amount of time" when they go to make a play. They're thinking "hit hard, take him out".

I guess the main point I haven't been able to get across is that having an "official" bounty program takes away from the integrity of clean/pure competition in the sport, which is something I truly value.
See, I thought we agreed. :tu
I illustrated that extra hard shot when a receiver comes across the middle for a specific reason. It doesn't need to be there any more than a strategy that specifically targets knocking a player out of the game, but it's also one in the same, more or less. Very often those wide receivers get helped off the field and suffer bruised ribs, etc. It's a planned and accepted head-hunting strategy that's played out the whole game, every game.
While I agree the whole "bounty" thing is infantile and wreckless, it's a part of the game that's always been and will always be there.
The breakdown here is that some nipplehead shot his mouth off and brought locker room business out in the open, which is a major no-no. They put both the players, coaches and NFL in peril. If someone is to lose their career, I think it should be the guy that shot his mouth off, not the coach who's taking the fall for it (when he clearly isn't the guy responsible for running the pool).

I think if there's one thing you and I disagree on, it's "the integrity...of the sport". That went out the window when big money rolled into town. Major League Baseball suffers from the same affliction. It's probably the most sickening in the NBA where Kobe Bryant runs the league.
At some point money became far more important than integrity. Unfortunately some of this is bleeding downhill to college and high school, but fortunately there are still a lot of coaches in small markets at those levels that still use sports as a tool to build quaility men, rather than to fill the coffers with cash.

Great points and awesome discussion, by the way. You're making me rethink all this real hard, brother. :tu

[Wanger]

I guess I'm a purist, in regards to the sports I watch. Though I'm not deluded enough to think that it is actually that way. It's how I really want to see it. The salaries are beyond insane, and aren't going to stop going up any time soon. Don't get me started on MLB...UGH!!!

As for the NBA, are they even required to dribble any more? If so, is it just not allowed inside the 3 point line? I'm sick of the "mugging" for the camera every time they make a shot or block one. Move on, next play, unless it's a game winner or something of that nature. Not when you're down by 25 with 2 minutes left in the 4th. ...and Kobe could never hold MJ's jock when he was in his prime.

Thats the thing about how sports used to be. It was used as a tool to build quality men (and women). You used to learn how to fill your role and work as a team. In the field I work in, I supervise, interview, and hire people. I see more and more of the younger generation simply in it for themselves. They don't know how to actually collaborate and work with people any more. It's sad and rather disgusting to me, as I place a high value on being able to work well within a team (of any nature). Put your ego aside and get shyte done.

As for the investigation of the bounty program, I don't remember how they figured it all out. I remember hearing they had investigated before, but don't remember the details of how it was all confirmed. I will say that if I was on a team that had one, and the league office asked me whether it existed or not, I would be truthful about it. Just not in my nature to not do it. The one thing I do know is that there were rumors of it earlier, and the league checked some, and told them to knock it off, if they had one. They didn't. That's on management and the coaching staff, IMO, whether or not Williams instituted it (which is who did, as far as I'm aware...please correct me if I'm wrong about that). As for who takes the blame...the players involved obviously do, but do you suspend only specific ones for those instances? I think the coaches should, as well, as they are in the position to stop it, but apparently didn't (at the minimum)...especially when the league already told them to knock it off.

OK...I've spent FAR too much time on this issue than I should have, and I am going to let it die now. I think I finally was able to get my point of view expressed clearly, and know that it's a minority position here.

[shilala]

I'm with you on what sports used to be and what they are now. I miss Tom Landry, bad.
I carried the purist torch for years and finally just gave up. I've been a die-hard Steelers fan nearly all my life and I'm at the point with them that I'd just as soon root for the Browns. It just ain't like it used to be, and it's sad.
You're right about the way it plays all across the board. That's a shame, too.
I even agree that a "bounty" system is ridiculous. In days past, men played for pride, their team and their coach. That's just plain gone. The last of the old-time coaches exists in Tom Coughlin, I'm thrilled he took the ring this year.
Hopefully some teams will take a look at what he does and why it's successful, and we'll head back to some of the values that made professional sports flourish. :tu

[BHalbrooks]

So fans of other teams busting chops? No offense, but whoopity damn doo. I still hear about Favre and his vicodin addiction, and his flashing his wee-wee, etc., and those things are completely irrelevant to the Packers (and have been for some time).

Their playoff record disagrees with you, and what gives a lot of fuel to the fire as to how big of an impact it made in the Patriots winning three Super Bowls.

Ok. Except the team that won the Super Bowl in 2007 won it again this year.;)

Grossly circumvented the salary cap which directly led them to being able to put together that team that won back-to-back Super Bowls in the late 90's. If I remember correctly they were fined alomst a million dollars and forfeited a couple of draft picks.
I didn't know that about the Bronco's. Hm.
I wasn't saying it as, "Oh poor us". I was saying it as in, "Yea, people still bring it up and it's annoying..."
Yea yea yea. F the Giants.
You need to read what you are linking.... He said it was a clean hit, no malicious intent, Brady just happened to get hurt. In a nutshell....

You don't care? So you make strong statements, refuting previous comments, but really don't care if they are true or to back them up.....:rolleyes:

I again ask you to find me something that says that Mr. Pollard or any other NFL play states that they are going out trying to blow up knees, ankles, ruin careers/seasons. Guys lose a season to a knee regularly, but I cannot think of a hit on a season ending play that I thought was overtly malicious or dirty.


...and just to be clear, to be okay with doing your job and having someone get a season ending injury, doesn't mean that you went out to intentionally injure/maim. It doesn't mean that you are okay with dirty plays that result in season ending injuries. It doesn't mean that you are going out trying to end guys seasons/careers.

A player can be fine with the result of a clean hit, even if it ends with an injury. Hell, these guys will be living with a lot of regret if they have to worry about every time someone gets hurt. One more time....

My statement -



Your response, quoting my post -
I understand what I said, thank you for quoting it....
I also said that I didn't care to, because I don't need to prove anything to you... I heard the interview, you look it up if you want to believe it. Believe it or not, I don't give a damn. Being "proud" of that hit is a pretty stupid comment to make, which is why I linked it. :rolleyes:

[E.J.]

I understand what I said, thank you for quoting it....
I also said that I didn't care to, because I don't need to prove anything to you... I heard the interview, you look it up if you want to believe it. Believe it or not, I don't give a damn. Being "proud" of that hit is a pretty stupid comment to make, which is why I linked it. :rolleyes:

Exactly what I thought... Thanks for playing........:r

[BHalbrooks]

:rolleyes:
Your ignorance astounds me.

[drob]

There were some hit that we're definately illegal. He was hit a few times way after the whistle was blown. The refs excuse after was the crowd noise was so loud they didn't know if the defensive player could hear the whistle. Since when did that matter? The saints are a dirty team. The refs let them get away with it for that playoff season.

These are statements without proof. Prove it!

[yourchoice]

Wow, the league came down HARD. Deserved, IMHO.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7718136/sean-payton-new-orleans-saints-banned-one-year-bounties

[Gophernut]

That's a beefy penalty. Williams suspended indefinitely, Payton suspended for the season, GM gone for 8 games and out 500K Saint fined 500K and lose the 2nd round pick the next two years! That's very stiff. It will be appealed I would imagine.

[smitty81]

It all has to do with intent. The object of hockey is not to harm anyone, it is to score more points than your opponent. The object of boxing, like all such sports, is to likewise score more points than the opponent. If the intent is to cause physical harm, then that is a felony. One can't even say that they gave consent to be harmed, because a person cannot legally give that consent. Injuries incidental to a particular sport are accidents, but when someone is targeted for harm...well, what would you call it?

What about the MMA?
Please explain that one.:D

[Subvet642]

What about the MMA?
Please explain that one.:D

Found this on Wiki:

...The more dangerous Vale Tudo style bouts of the early UFCs were made safer with the implementation of additional rules, leading to the popular regulated form of MMA seen today. Originally promoted as a competition with the intention of finding the most effective martial arts for real unarmed combat situations, competitors were pitted against one another with minimal rules. Later, fighters employed multiple martial arts into their style while promoters adopted additional rules aimed at increasing safety for competitors and to promote mainstream acceptance of the sport.

[OLS]

I think I will use the ignore function on some people for the first time ever.
WAIT...where the hell is it?

[smitty81]

Found this on Wiki:

...The more dangerous Vale Tudo style bouts of the early UFCs were made safer with the implementation of additional rules, leading to the popular regulated form of MMA seen today. Originally promoted as a competition with the intention of finding the most effective martial arts for real unarmed combat situations, competitors were pitted against one another with minimal rules. Later, fighters employed multiple martial arts into their style while promoters adopted additional rules aimed at increasing safety for competitors and to promote mainstream acceptance of the sport.

So your telling me that when the kick them in the head and knock them out, or throw them down and continue to punch them in their face till they are unconsious or bend their limbs untill they either break or give up.

Your telling me they arnt just beating the **** out of eachother?

[Subvet642]

So your telling me that when the kick them in the head and knock them out, or throw them down and continue to punch them in their face till they are unconscious or bend their limbs until they either break or give up.

Your telling me they aren't just beating the **** out of each other?

If that's what they're doing, then it isn't a sport, it's this:

http://famouswonders.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Depiction-of-Gladiator-games-by-Jean-Leon_Gerome_Pollice_Verso.jpg

[pektel]

I think it was a fair punishment. Hell, fine them MORE. They should have to pay inflated stadium prices for everything.

I don't agree with the observation that it should be accepted just because that's the way it is. That's like saying not to arrest drug dealers, because there will always be heroin on the streets.

[Stephen]

Found this on Wiki:

...The more dangerous Vale Tudo style bouts of the early UFCs were made safer with the implementation of additional rules, leading to the popular regulated form of MMA seen today. Originally promoted as a competition with the intention of finding the most effective martial arts for real unarmed combat situations, competitors were pitted against one another with minimal rules. Later, fighters employed multiple martial arts into their style while promoters adopted additional rules aimed at increasing safety for competitors and to promote mainstream acceptance of the sport.
I will never, and I mean NEVER forget the Keith Hackney and Joe Son fight. :pu

[Stephen]

I think it was a fair punishment. Hell, fine them MORE. They should have to pay inflated stadium prices for everything.

I don't agree with the observation that it should be accepted just because that's the way it is. That's like saying not to arrest drug dealers, because there will always be heroin on the streets.
Feel free to show me all the fines for illegal hits Saints players incurred over the past three seasons. While you're at it, please list the players who were injured for any period of time as a direct result from a hit or hits levied by a Saints defender. Take all the time you need.:)

[jledou]

Wow they are sending a message ... we don't know all the details, but I would imagine they can and will appeal this to an extent. If the Saints don't then I would say the NFL has more facts then we know of right now.

[pektel]

Feel free to show me all the fines for illegal hits Saints players incurred over the past three seasons. While you're at it, please list the players who were injured for any period of time as a direct result from a hit or hits levied by a Saints defender. Take all the time you need.:)

I was not calling out the saints in particular. Simply stating that if they were found guilty of bounty hits, that they should be paying a fine.

Just because someone drinks and drives and gets away with it does not make it any better than the person who does the same but wrecks and kills innocent people. They are both horribly wrong for acting in the manner they did to begin with.

My argument is purely on the principle. And my apologies if I came across differently than my intention.

[Islayphile]

Feel free to show me all the fines for illegal hits Saints players incurred over the past three seasons. While you're at it, please list the players who were injured for any period of time as a direct result from a hit or hits levied by a Saints defender. Take all the time you need.:)

My take as well

:2

[bobarian]

I think the main issue is being missed here. Today's punishment was levied for specific violations of NFL rules. Including disregarding a specific memo that had to be signed and returned to the league office regarding ANY performance bonuses. These are a clear violation of the salary cap. Whether anyone was injured or fined doesnt matter, the program existed and thats why punishments were given.

Individual player suspensions will be forthcoming, in addition to possible IRS investigations of tax evasion. :2

[yourchoice]

Feel free to show me all the fines for illegal hits Saints players incurred over the past three seasons. While you're at it, please list the players who were injured for any period of time as a direct result from a hit or hits levied by a Saints defender. Take all the time you need.:)

I don't believe the NFL lists their fines. We hear of them all the time, but I don't think you'll find a comprehensive list of them provided by the NFL.

Of course, that doesn't mean you can't search for them. At the risk of reading more rhetoric...
This one (http://communityvoices.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/sports/bob-smiziks-blog/31199-report-of-weekly-nfl-fines) probably paints the Saints in the poorest light. Interesting that Williams is quoted in that article saying "If that guy doesn't want his head tore off, duck. Because that's how we're playing." Classy! Reading it now, after the league came down on him and the Saints, makes him look even more like an ass.

Here's (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/01/29/mccray-fined-20000-for-hits-on-favre/) another one you're familiar with. Bobby McCray on Favre.

I also found fines levied on other Saint players for illegal hits or unnecessary roughness. In 2010, Malcolm Jenkins and Marvin Mitchell. 2009 Jonathon Vilma. 2008 Kevin Kaesviharn.

Good enough?

Oh, just found another one. Roman Harper (again) last year.

That's all the time I needed. ;)

Feel free to research each of the incidents I listed further to see if anyone missed any playing time. Take all the time you need. :)

[Stephen]

I think the main issue is being missed here. Today's punishment was levied for specific violations of NFL rules. Including disregarding a specific memo that had to be signed and returned to the league office regarding ANY performance bonuses. These are a clear violation of the salary cap. Whether anyone was injured or fined doesnt matter, the program existed and thats why punishments were given.

Individual player suspensions will be forthcoming, in addition to possible IRS investigations of tax evasion. :2
It was discussed (albeit briefly) early in the thread, but the moral outrage of football players getting hit drowned that discussion out.

[yourchoice]

I think the main issue is being missed here. Today's punishment was levied for specific violations of NFL rules. Including disregarding a specific memo that had to be signed and returned to the league office regarding ANY performance bonuses. These are a clear violation of the salary cap. Whether anyone was injured or fined doesnt matter, the program existed and thats why punishments were given.

Individual player suspensions will be forthcoming, in addition to possible IRS investigations of tax evasion. :2

I can't agree with you Bob. While I understand the cap violations are part of the story, Roger Goodell has stated that player safety is paramount. The GM may be receiving his suspension because of the cap implications, but Gregg Williams is receiving his for the bounty. That's how I see it, anyway.

Here's a couple quotes from Roger Goodell
"The game doesn't need to be played this way. We think that while it is a strong message, its an important one to send -- that we need to protect our players."

"We are all accountable and responsible for player health and safety and the integrity of the game. We will not tolerate conduct or a culture that undermines those priorities. No one is above the game or the rules that govern it. Respect for the game and the people who participate in it will not be compromised."

"A combination of elements made this matter particularly unusual and egregious. When there is targeting of players for injury and cash rewards over a three-year period, the involvement of the coaching staff, and three years of denials and willful disrespect of the rules, a strong and lasting message must be sent that such conduct is totally unacceptable and has no place in the game."

To reason that the money aspect is driving this doesn't make sense to me.

[bobarian]

Sorry, didnt mean to say that cap violations were the primary issue, but only one of the violations. Player safety, competition, lying to investigators were all part of the decision.

If 25 of NO's 27 defensive players were involved, I wonder how many will be suspended? I think Vilma for sure, but we'll see who else.

[Stephen]

I don't believe the NFL lists their fines. We hear of them all the time, but I don't think you'll find a comprehensive list of them provided by the NFL.

Of course, that doesn't mean you can't search for them. At the risk of reading more rhetoric...
This one (http://communityvoices.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/sports/bob-smiziks-blog/31199-report-of-weekly-nfl-fines) probably paints the Saints in the poorest light. Interesting that Williams is quoted in that article saying "If that guy doesn't want his head tore off, duck. Because that's how we're playing." Classy! Reading it now, after the league came down on him and the Saints, makes him look even more like an ass.

Here's (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/01/29/mccray-fined-20000-for-hits-on-favre/) another one you're familiar with. Bobby McCray on Favre.

I also found fines levied on other Saint players for illegal hits or unnecessary roughness. In 2010, Malcolm Jenkins and Marvin Mitchell. 2009 Jonathon Vilma. 2008 Kevin Kaesviharn.

Good enough?

Oh, just found another one. Roman Harper (again) last year.

That's all the time I needed. ;)

Feel free to research each of the incidents I listed further to see if anyone missed any playing time. Take all the time you need. :)
1. Gregg Williams wasn't the DC of the Saints in 2008.
2. I don't need to; the WSJ already did that for us (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203370604577263580381162426.html).
3. The burden of proof isn't on me to show that players were getting intentionally maimed by Saints defenders under Gregg Williams guidance.

[Stephen]

To reason that the money aspect is driving this doesn't make sense to me.
No, the mob is driving this thing. That much is painfully obvious. The public called for blood and blood they got.:2

[Stephen]

Sorry, didnt mean to say that cap violations were the primary issue, but only one of the violations. Player safety, competition, lying to investigators were all part of the decision.

If 25 of NO's 27 defensive players were involved, I wonder how many will be suspended? I think Vilma for sure, but we'll see who else.
One would have to think Roman Harper as well.

[Gophernut]

Doing a bit of reading on this topic today I have a couple of things that sort of stuck out for me. To those who are defending the Saints, didn't Payton already admit wrongdoing? I am quite sure that his statement on March 6 where he acknowledged that the bounty program existed and that he would make sure that he never be involved with it again is an admission of guilt. Having said that, the penalty seems to me to make sense. The 2nd is that it seems to me that this is as much about lying about it originally than it is about any specific injury that may or may not have happened because of the bounty program. Now whether or not a bounty program exists on other teams, or has existed is still up for debate. The fact that it existed here, to me, isn't about the salary cap, or the dollar amounts it's more about the motivation to make the big hit. I do just fine at work, but if I win a measly little office pool for $5 bucks, I get more satisfaction from that then I do my weekly paycheck. So the motivation for me to win the office pool is almost greater than what drives me to perform my job. I hope I'm saying that so it makes sense to people. I certainly enjoy the $5 bucks more. So even though these players all do really well, I can see it motivating them to get the payoff in front of their teammates.

[Stephen]

Doing a bit of reading on this topic today I have a couple of things that sort of stuck out for me. To those who are defending the Saints, didn't Payton already admit wrongdoing? I am quite sure that his statement on March 6 where he acknowledged that the bounty program existed and that he would make sure that he never be involved with it again is an admission of guilt. Having said that, the penalty seems to me to make sense. The 2nd is that it seems to me that this is as much about lying about it originally than it is about any specific injury that may or may not have happened because of the bounty program. Now whether or not a bounty program exists on other teams, or has existed is still up for debate. The fact that it existed here, to me, isn't about the salary cap, or the dollar amounts it's more about the motivation to make the big hit. I do just fine at work, but if I win a measly little office pool for $5 bucks, I get more satisfaction from that then I do my weekly paycheck. So the motivation for me to win the office pool is almost greater than what drives me to perform my job. I hope I'm saying that so it makes sense to people. I certainly enjoy the $5 bucks more. So even though these players all do really well, I can see it motivating them to get the payoff in front of their teammates.
Although I'm sure I'm viewed as one who's defending their actions, I'm not. I simply think that the perception, whether real or not, is that this was about attempting to injure other players. Personally, circumventing the salary cap with a, "bounty" system being funded by entities outside the organization and the (attempted) coverup is the real issue.:2

[shilala]

The way this penalty phase sits now, it's got the teeth to absolutely gut the Saints next year. Losing the head coach, money, and draft picks (which makes absolutely no sense to me) should be sufficient punishment. It definitely sends the desired message, and it's likely to cost the Saints a number of games next year and a shot at the playoffs.
Now if Goodell starts suspending players, I can't see why their (bounty program) participation is less damning than Payton's knowledge of it. They certainly knew that they shouldn't be doing it and it had to have been communicated to them that they'd been told to quit.
So now we suspend almost the entire Saints defense for a year? That seems like an equal punishment.
Right now Goodell is playing the fear game, and he's playing it well. On appeal I see this being pared back dramatically. I doubt that Payton is able to appeal via the CBA as he's not a member, but in a court of law he wins easily. There's no precedent, no rules in place, and the Commissioner can dole out punishment at whim. That wouldn't likely stand up if it's tried.

I'm not sure where I sit on the punishment. I think it should be huge, but I don't think it should cripple the franchise's ability to compete. I completely disagree with the draft picks being taken away. I agree with the coach and GM's suspensions. I don't think they're excessive. The $500,000 is a pittance.
Maybe let Payton coach and fine him the $7,000,000 he'd have made this year and donate it to a player's injury fund to pay for health care for uninsured/injured players and so forth? Same with the GM, let the team buy him back by donating his salary.

I don't think crippling the team's ability to compete is the answer, although I agree that my angle won't likely make an impact because millions of dollars is nothing to many ball clubs. I don't envy Goodell's position, and he's been very effective at handling problems in the past. I'm sure he's thought of every angle, surrounded by a team of lawyers.

[shilala]

Personally, circumventing the salary cap with a, "bounty" system being funded by entities outside the organization and the (attempted) coverup is the real issue.
See, I don't see the bounty program as anything more than an office pool.
I think the issue is putting the league at risk for litigation. They're in the midst of fighting off these concussion lawsuits and this "bounty program" coming to light very much damages any shred of credibility they may have put together in their defense.

On another front, I heard this thing all blew up when Farve got carted off the field while he played for Minnesota. I didn't catch who the player was that made the hit, but that player was overheard saying "get me my money" or something to that effect, wanting his bounty money.
Did you hear that story?

[Starscream]

See, I don't see the bounty program as anything more than an office pool.
I think the issue is putting the league at risk for litigation. They're in the midst of fighting off these concussion lawsuits and this "bounty program" coming to light very much damages any shred of credibility they may have put together in their defense.

On another front, I heard this thing all blew up when Farve got carted off the field while he played for Minnesota. I didn't catch who the player was that made the hit, but that player was overheard saying "get me my money" or something to that effect, wanting his bounty money.
Did you hear that story?

I remember before that playoff game that there was a reported bounty out for Favre. I don't remember the in-game comments from players. After all that's come out the last few weeks, I certainly believe you though, Scott.

[shilala]

I remember before that playoff game that there was a reported bounty out for Favre. I don't remember the in-game comments from players. After all that's come out the last few weeks, I certainly believe you though, Scott.
This thing turned into a 1700 page report, Andy. Maybe someone read that from the report and reported on it? I wish I'd have been paying closer attention.

[shilala]

Warren Sapp claimed that Jeremy Shockey blew the whistle back in '09. The NFL did an investigation and didn't find enough evidence, my guess is that's when the Saints were told to cut the sh1t.

[yourchoice]

Although I'm sure I'm viewed as one who's defending their actions, I'm not. I simply think that the perception, whether real or not, is that this was about attempting to injure other players. Personally, circumventing the salary cap with a, "bounty" system being funded by entities outside the organization and the (attempted) coverup is the real issue.:2

I disagree. I think the bigger issue for the NFL (and for me, personally) was the intent to injure and the fact there was an award for doing so. Like Scott alluded, the NFL doesn't want the liability. And the amount of money involved was peanuts, relative to salaries.

[forgop]

Feel free to show me all the fines for illegal hits Saints players incurred over the past three seasons. While you're at it, please list the players who were injured for any period of time as a direct result from a hit or hits levied by a Saints defender. Take all the time you need.:)

:tpd:

For all the crybaby Favre fans complaining about the beating Favre took that game, I heard them talking on Mike and Mike that the NFL didn't fine a single player and reviewing the game once again in light of said information, didn't really provide any more insight that the Saints were really playing dirty. Perhaps they were playing more within the full rules, but too many hits or hitting too hard? This isn't pee wee football we're talking about here.

If Favre didn't need a walker to get around before the game, it's even less of an issue of taking the hits during the game. :r

[Stephen]

See, I don't see the bounty program as anything more than an office pool.
But the NFL, and rightfully so, views it as a circumvention of the salary cap. Further, outside entities helped fund these, "bounty" programs. Outside money influencing play on the field is a huge no-no in sports.
I think the issue is putting the league at risk for litigation. They're in the midst of fighting off these concussion lawsuits and this "bounty program" coming to light very much damages any shred of credibility they may have put together in their defense.
Court of opinion, sure. Court of law? I have my doubts.

[Stephen]

I disagree. I think the bigger issue for the NFL (and for me, personally) was the intent to injure
Which is being ridiculously overblown, IMO. With a three year ongoing investigation, isn't it safe to deduct that the League would've taken a particular interest into the Saints play on the field?
and the fact there was an award for doing so. Like Scott alluded, the NFL doesn't want the liability. And the amount of money involved was peanuts, relative to salaries.
And that was money rewarded for performance on the field, which was paid, "under the table" which in turn is a direct circumvention of the salary cap.

[OLS]

This is nothing more than NFL PR aiming to get out ahead of any possible litigation. The Saints do not deserve
anything LIKE this, at least nothing that the entire league is not subject to. Losing DRAFT PICKS?? Come on.
This punishment is just like everything Goodell does, OVER THE TOP. I am not saying it is not his right, I am not
saying the league doesn't NEED to be reined in at every corner, I am saying that I do not like it, I don't think it's
all that fair, and I will not be watching NFL football in 2012.

[shilala]

But the NFL, and rightfully so, views it as a circumvention of the salary cap. Further, outside entities helped fund these, "bounty" programs. Outside money influencing play on the field is a huge no-no in sports.

I understand that position, and it's a tool they have to use. We're talking pool money of $50,000, $1,000 for a hit that runs a player off the field, $1500 for a cart off. That's dinner money for these guys.
They can call it circumvention, because it is. Regardless, it's chickensh1t. It's a claim that'll stick, and it serves their higher purpose without making it look like they're covering their ass, which is what it is.
I'm not at all saying that the NFL is wrong in any of their actions here, I just have an affinity for getting down to the truth of the matter.
As far as my assertion about a court of law, Payton may not have any recourse in this whatever, including a court of law. I would think that the NFL has covered their ass so far as handing out punishments, making sure they're held harmless by contract.
I do think Payton got his due, I just wish their was a way that the fans don't have to suffer this. They're the ones paying the bill, and the ones who ultimately pay the most by watching their team become dismantled.

[Stephen]

I'm not at all saying that the NFL is wrong in any of their actions here, I just have an affinity for getting down to the truth of the matter.
Agreed 100%. That's why to me, I think doing this under the guise of, "player safety" is to appease the masses. If they (the League office) were aware of these things three years ago and were truly concerned about the safety of their players, it would've been shut down three years ago, period. The League has shown time and again under Goodell's tenure to be pro-active to protect the League's, "image". Interesting that the hammer didn't fall until a month after these findings became public, no?

[Gophernut]

:tpd:

I heard them talking on Mike and Mike that the NFL didn't fine a single player and reviewing the game once again in light of said information, didn't really provide any more insight that the Saints were really playing dirty. Perhaps they were playing more within the full rules, but too many hits or hitting too hard? This isn't pee wee football we're talking about here.

Not true actually.
Article from the Star Tribune (1/29/10)

http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/blogs/83074192.html
Three New Orleans Saints players were fined a total of $30,000 for four different hits in Sunday's NFC Championship game. Three of those hits were delivered to Brett Favre.

As we mentioned earlier Bobby McCray was fined $20,000 for two hits on Favre. The first came after Favre handed off to Percy Harvin in the first quarter. McCray then hit Favre in the knees on his interception in the third quarter, causing Favre to suffer a left ankle injury.

Defensive tackle Anthony Hargrove was fined $5,000 for unnecessary roughness when he lifted Favre up and slammed him to the turf in the third quarter.
Finally, Jonathan Casillas was fined $5,000 for unnecessary roughness when he hit punt returner Darius Reynaud after he had downed the ball.

[yourchoice]

Not true actually.
Article from the Star Tribune (1/29/10)

http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/blogs/83074192.html
Three New Orleans Saints players were fined a total of $30,000 for four different hits in Sunday's NFC Championship game. Three of those hits were delivered to Brett Favre.

As we mentioned earlier Bobby McCray was fined $20,000 for two hits on Favre. The first came after Favre handed off to Percy Harvin in the first quarter. McCray then hit Favre in the knees on his interception in the third quarter, causing Favre to suffer a left ankle injury.

Defensive tackle Anthony Hargrove was fined $5,000 for unnecessary roughness when he lifted Favre up and slammed him to the turf in the third quarter.
Finally, Jonathan Casillas was fined $5,000 for unnecessary roughness when he hit punt returner Darius Reynaud after he had downed the ball.

Steve, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story! :r

[yourchoice]

The more you hear, the worse the Saints and their staff seem. Lying to the Commissioner's office, and "getting their stories straight". What a mess. It's no wonder Goodell came down so hard.

[Gophernut]

Steve, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story! :r

:hy

The more you hear, the worse the Saints and their staff seem. Lying to the Commissioner's office, and "getting their stories straight". What a mess. It's no wonder Goodell came down so hard.

That's what my thoughts boil down to as well. If they hadn't tried the cover up, there is no way the suspensions are anywhere near as harsh as they are. The fact that they were warned and decided to keep the program in place, and try to keep it in-house was pretty reckless in my opinion. As it takes is one free agent who didn't get re-signed and wants to run his mouth about something and here we are. I know people are saying it's Shockey who blew the whistle, but that was 3 years ago. If they had stopped the program right then and there, I don't think anything happens to them.

[Mikey202]

What? I thought my Steelers were the dirties , non- ethical, low down dirtiest, players in NFL history? :D

[smitty81]

What? I thought my Steelers were the dirties , non- ethical, low down dirtiest, players in NFL history? :D

And here I thought it was the Raiders.
The Raiders Vs. Broncos game last year did set the record for the most penalties in one game after all.

http://media.northjersey.com/images/cushing21.jpg

[chippewastud79]

And here I thought it was the Raiders.
The Raiders Vs. Broncos game last year did set the record for the most penalties in one game after all.

http://media.northjersey.com/images/cushing21.jpg

If I recall correctly, The Raiders v. Broncos game was mostly false starts and holding with 2 or 3 personal fouls mixed in. :hm



Why is there a picture of Brian Cushing from the Texans? :confused:

[smitty81]

If I recall correctly, The Raiders v. Broncos game was mostly false starts and holding with 2 or 3 personal fouls mixed in. :hm



4 unnecessary roughness
1 roughing the passer
1 unsportsman like conduct

and I think there was a fight or two they broke up in those penalties.

I see now that I picked the wrong picture..............


Sorry for getting off topic.

[yourchoice]

Sorry for getting off topic.

At least you're not talking about MMA anymore. ;)

[jledou]

And here I thought it was the Raiders.


Hey! dem dare Raiders are some class acts ;)

[chippewastud79]

4 unnecessary roughness
1 roughing the passer
1 unsportsman like conduct

and I think there was a fight or two they broke up in those penalties.

I see now that I picked the wrong picture..............


Sorry for getting off topic.

Six 15 yard penalties is a lot, but the bulk of the penalties were other stuff. The Raiders averaged something like 10 penalties a game and set a record for most penalties in a quarter or half or something like that last season. :rolleyes:

[OLS]

I guess I was a little pre-mature in trying to stick up for the Saints as being just like every other team.
I still believe that to be the case, but I heard some more sound bites from Roger Goodhead, er Goodell where
he claims there was a letter and a poster sent to post in the locker room that specifically used the word bounty
and prohibited any behavior of that kind. I guess this could actually be true. Kind of like you being the company
poarno downloader and a memo comes out that seems to be for everybody, but it really to cover the companies a55
when they come after YOU. If it is true, then the Saints are getting what is coming to them. If there was a coverup
attempt, that to is unjustifiable. On to the Warren Sapp accusations, I like Warren much more as a commentator that
I ever did as a player, I think he is a little bi+(h, or a big one rather. But do I believe that the rat could be Jeremy
Shockey, you bet I do. Sounds exactly like him. Does it matter??? Hardly. But snitch is a word I associate with
drug dealers and community thugs, so I will use rat, lol. And as for the NFL, I think I will join Shaun Payton and take a
year off. Until they agree to pay for all the brain damage they caused, and do something about these GIANT men they
help create that die early due to diabetes complications, I think I will spend Sunday doing yard work.

[NCRadioMan]

And the Saints go marching on............. http://espn.go.com/new-york/story/_/id/7846290/new-orleans-saints-mickey-loomis-eavesdrop-opposing-coaches-home-games

NEW ORLEANS -- The U.S. Attorney's Office in the Eastern District of Louisiana was told Friday that New Orleans Saints general manager Mickey Loomis had an electronic device in his Superdome suite that had been secretly re-wired to enable him to eavesdrop on visiting coaching staffs for nearly three NFL seasons, "Outside the Lines" has learned.

Mickey Loomis has been the Saints' general manager since 2002.
Sources familiar with Saints game-day operations told "Outside the Lines" that Loomis, who faces an eight-game suspension from the NFL for his role in the recent bounty scandal, had the ability to secretly listen for most of the 2002 season, his first as general manager of the Saints, and all of the 2003 and 2004 seasons. The sources spoke with "Outside the Lines" under the condition of anonymity because of fear of reprisals from members of the Saints organization..................

Gotta love federal crime level wiretapping. :r

[yourchoice]

And the Saints go marching on............. http://espn.go.com/new-york/story/_/id/7846290/new-orleans-saints-mickey-loomis-eavesdrop-opposing-coaches-home-games



Gotta love federal crime level wiretapping. :r

Crazy!

[smitty81]

If I was Drew Brees, I would get while the gettins good.

[shilala]

If I was Drew Brees, I would get while the gettins good.
He can't make a move, Josh. Until the fines and suspensions are handed down, he doesn't know what his team will look like.
He cannot play for any other team this year, he was Franchised. All he can do is sit the year out with Brad and Sean Payton.
He's already said he will NOT play without a long term contract in place. The last time he did that in good faith, he blew up his shoulder.
He's in a good position right now. If his team is going to suck, he should sit out the year and take his talent elsewhere.
Mind ya, they're within a couple million of being a done deal. He'll be the highest paid player in football. They're somewhere around 19.5 to 21.5 million a year right now. He's easily worth twice that salary just based on the merchandising he brings, but they need to work within the cap.
So he can't git, and the gittin ain't good. ;)

[smitty81]

He can't make a move, Josh. Until the fines and suspensions are handed down, he doesn't know what his team will look like.
He cannot play for any other team this year, he was Franchised. All he can do is sit the year out with Brad and Sean Payton.
He's already said he will NOT play without a long term contract in place. The last time he did that in good faith, he blew up his shoulder.
He's in a good position right now. If his team is going to suck, he should sit out the year and take his talent elsewhere.
Mind ya, they're within a couple million of being a done deal. He'll be the highest paid player in football. They're somewhere around 19.5 to 21.5 million a year right now. He's easily worth twice that salary just based on the merchandising he brings, but they need to work within the cap.
So he can't git, and the gittin ain't good. ;)

I don't know why a QB of his caliber would even consider signing a long term contract with the Saints right now. The Saints are going to be feeling the repercussions of this for quite a while. Brees is getting old enough that he's going to need a decent team in the next few years if he's looking to go back to the Super Bowl. I just don't see the Saints in that race for a while now.

I would sit out the year and go elsewhere.:2

[shilala]

I don't know why a QB of his caliber would even consider signing a long term contract with the Saints right now. The Saints are going to be feeling the repercussions of this for quite a while. Brees is getting old enough that he's going to need a decent team in the next few years if he's looking to go back to the Super Bowl. I just don't see the Saints in that race for a while now.

I would sit out the year and go elsewhere.:2
He doesn't need any more accolades. He loves his city and his city loves him. He's achieved all a quarterback could hope to achieve. He's looking for a lifetime deal where he moves from player to operations, "elsewhere" isn't in his vocabulary. The only way it'll get there is if the Saints ownership/management forces him out.
This is his club, and as such, he'd love nothing more to stick it out and lead his team out of these difficulties. It would just make the Brees Legend that much larger. I guess you have to understand how much he's loved in that part of the world to understand his mindset. Suffice to say that God is first and Drew Brees is a close second.

[yourchoice]

Player suspensions...

Jonathan Vilma - entire 2012 season.
Anthony Hargrove (now with Green Bay) - 8 games
Will Smith - 4 games
Scott Fujita (now with Cleveland) -3 games.

[macpappy]

Man! I go away for a couple of months and all this crap breaks out. As a Saint's fan, I am disgusted with the whole thing. Plain and simple, they Saints got caught doing what a lot of other teams do. Then they lied and tried to cover it up. On top of that the NFL is being sued for not protecting the players more. So to me, the way the level of repercussions is understandable. I also believe that if the Saints would have stopped the program when it started and had not lied to the commissioner, then the penalties would not have been so severe. That being said, the Saints will survive. Payton's game plans will be followed. The defense may be without Vilma for a year but I believe that's actually an upgrade. Will Smith won't be missed as much either.

As for the "allegation" of Loomis eavesdropping on other coaches - that whole thing seems to have dropped fairly quickly when the sources were revealed to be people fired from the Saints for just cause.