why is college so expensive?

[Devanmc]

I just spent 705bucks on what amounts to this...

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l89/devanmc436/2011-09-01100750.jpg

2 of which i just realized they didnt even ******* bind together :sl which were 160 apeice!!!

[Subvet642]

Market forces. People want to go to college so that they can maximize their lifetime earning potential. Because this is so important to so many people, colleges and universities (as well as textbook publishers) can raise their "prices" (tuition, fees, etc.) with impunity, because they know that plenty of people will pay it. I'm glad I didn't go.

[Ogre]

The states regulate what the schools can charge for tuition, so the schools mark up the books 1000% to make budget. You cant take the class without the required materials.

[Brutus2600]

Check out Chegg.com to see if they have those two textbooks at least. They usually don't have anything that's loose like the top three.

[maninblack]

It will be worth it in the end Devan. Trust me.

[loki]

It will be worth it in the end Devan. Trust me.

that's what everyone told me when I graduated in 05 and I'm still waiting for that to come true. the only benefit to being in college now is that hopefully things will rebound before you graduate.

[irratebass]

Devan were these new or used? I remember saving a sh!t ton on used books.

[chippewastud79]

half.com :tu

[Devanmc]

Devan were these new or used? I remember saving a sh!t ton on used books.

half new half used. the new ones weren't available used.

[thechrisdotcom]

that's what everyone told me when I graduated in 05 and I'm still waiting for that to come true. the only benefit to being in college now is that hopefully things will rebound before you graduate.

What did you major in?

[irratebass]

half new half used. the new ones weren't available used.

Bummer :td

[maninblack]

that's what everyone told me when I graduated in 05 and I'm still waiting for that to come true. the only benefit to being in college now is that hopefully things will rebound before you graduate.

Sorry to hear this. I guess I got lucky and graduated before the economy went to sh!t.

[MurphysLaw]

Check out Chegg.com to see if they have those two textbooks at least. They usually don't have anything that's loose like the top three.

+1 for chegg, I try to get all my books for things outside my major from them

[Wolfgang]

abebooks.com is where i get mine.

[loki]

What did you major in?

something useless from the liberal arts side of the house

[Devanmc]

Im hoping a bachelors in Integrated Supply Management gets me somewhere. Im looking to get a masters in Logistics aswell. Ill need to get accepted to MSU's business graduate program for that though.

[thechrisdotcom]

something useless from the liberal arts side of the house

is it the major you got not very useful towards most business jobs or something?

[OLS]

Books.....the world's largest scam. It is crooked from every angle. New they rape you.
Buying your used "new" books, they treat them like they are useless and pay you accordingly.
For the next sucker, suddenly your old "useless" books are worth 80% of their original new cost. I can still
remember my Mom holding back the bile, tears and curses when she paid those bills. Thank goodness for
the little the USAF gave me.

[Devanmc]

Books.....the world's largest scam. It is crooked from every angle. New they rape you.
Buying your used "new" books, they treat them like they are useless and pay you accordingly.
For the next sucker, suddenly your old "useless" books are worth 80% of their original new cost. I can still
remember my Mom holding back the bile, tears and curses when she paid those bills. Thank goodness for
the little the USAF gave me.

same here, i thought the 500 the GI gave me would be enough. guess not :gary

damn *****es...

[kaisersozei]

Books.....the world's largest scam. It is crooked from every angle. New they rape you.
Buying your used "new" books, they treat them like they are useless and pay you accordingly.
For the next sucker, suddenly your old "useless" books are worth 80% of their original new cost. I can still
remember my Mom holding back the bile, tears and curses when she paid those bills. Thank goodness for
the little the USAF gave me.

My local paper had an article on a new twist on this now. Some colleges are requiring students to register for electronic copies of these books, instead of going the old hardback route. It's kind of like registering software, though--1 ID per student per enrolled class. The books are available in pdf or eReader format. Sounds cool & easy, right?

The bad news is that there is no price discount for the text, and once you activate the code, you can't transfer the e-copy. So, no reselling, no used book discount, etc. Seems like another scam.


Here's the link, it's more of an opinion piece but it kind of gets the point across:

http://www2.richmond.com/news/2011/jun/06/scam-buying-college-textbooks-ar-1083940/

[kelmac07]

Isn't your GI Bill paying for this? :D

[Devanmc]

Isn't your GI Bill paying for this? :D

thats the sad part, my 500 per semester for books didnt cover this. but yes its paying tuition and most of the dorm room.

[maninblack]

I guess that is a bright spot then.

[Devanmc]

yeah 9k per-semester is paid for

[357]

The more I read about the current state of American universities the more I'm convinced it's not much more than a ponzi scheme.

[sikk50]

My first semester I paid as much for books as for classes ($1500). The only reason it wasn't like that other semesters was they allowed us to use e books and CSU tuition went through the roof. My last semesters tuition cost me twice as much as my first semester! I graduated in December, but word is it went up another good chunk before spring semester.

[cricky101]

There were always a couple copies in the library for all of my classes. Couldn't check them out, but could go sit there and read for free or photocopy needed pages for a few cents/page.

[Ismith75]

Haha I feel your pain brotha, just spent 500 on my finance book

[M1903A1]

The more I read about the current state of American universities the more I'm convinced it's not much more than a ponzi scheme.

:tpd: ^^^ What he said.

[357]

I don't get why all college books, and high school books for that matter, aren't electronic. I mean Johannes Gutenberg invented the printing press around 1440. Do you think after nearly 700 years we could move on to another form of media? Perhaps one that is free to distribute?

I'm not suggesting we do away with copyrights, just the bulk of the cost which is printing and distribution.

[Apoco]

Im hoping a bachelors in Integrated Supply Management gets me somewhere. Im looking to get a masters in Logistics aswell. Ill need to get accepted to MSU's business graduate program for that though.

Logistics is a great way to go.

And Devan, there are jobs out there. I'm on my 3rd one (by choice) since I graduated in May of 2010 with a double major in Accounting & Finance. Don't let the economy scare you too much. Start applying for internships nice and early - that experience means the world.

EDIT: I just realized I didn't address your topic at all. It is a scam. I had one class where the professor wrote the book and it was "required". Such a rip.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Subvet642]

I don't get why all college books, and high school books for that matter, aren't electronic. I mean Johannes Gutenberg invented the printing press around 1440. Do you think after nearly 700 years we could move on to another form of media? Perhaps one that is free to distribute?

I'm not suggesting we do away with copyrights, just the bulk of the cost which is printing and distribution.


Once the format becomes obsolete, the electricity goes out, the battery dies, you drop your reader, or whatever; then where are you? Books are already perfect the way they are, and require nothing else in order to read. All electronic media requires hardware, software and power support in order to function. A book requires only itself.

[Devanmc]

Logistics is a great way to go.

And Devan, there are jobs out there. I'm on my 3rd one (by choice) since I graduated in May of 2010 with a double major in Accounting & Finance. Don't let the economy scare you too much. Start applying for internships nice and early - that experience means the world.

EDIT: I just realized I didn't address your topic at all. It is a scam. I had one class where the professor wrote the book and it was "required". Such a rip.
Posted via Mobile Device

yeah just getting out of the army and havent started school. So hopefully ill get an idea what kind of jobs to apply for threw this year of experience.

[sikk50]

I don't get why all college books, and high school books for that matter, aren't electronic. I mean Johannes Gutenberg invented the printing press around 1440. Do you think after nearly 700 years we could move on to another form of media? Perhaps one that is free to distribute?

I'm not suggesting we do away with copyrights, just the bulk of the cost which is printing and distribution.

My last semester they had just started offering most books in electronic forms. I got one book like that bc it was a ton cheaper, but I discovered I prefer to have a hard copy. Highlighting and flipping pages checking you're scribbled margin notes is a lot more effective, IMHO, on a hard copy than an electronic one.

[mithrilG60]

that's what everyone told me when I graduated in 05 and I'm still waiting for that to come true. the only benefit to being in college now is that hopefully things will rebound before you graduate.

University is about learning how to learn and think which in turn increases your long term earning potential. Except for very specific fields like medicine, law, engineering, etc it's not (unfortunately) about going to school to get a job. It definitely pays off in the long run, especially given that an undergrad degree is no longer considered something special or unique by most professional employers. Not having one in those fields is like coming to the poker table without ante stakes... you don't get to join the game.

[shark]

I'd like to see how much the professors and university administrators rake in every year in salaries...

[markem]

I'd like to see how much the professors and university administrators rake in every year in salaries...

For public institutions, you should be able to request a copy of the budget at the library. It should include a breakdown of salaries by name/department. I would imagine that it would be available both in print and electronic formats.

For private schools, well, good luck with that one.

[The Poet]

I'd like to see how much the professors and university administrators rake in every year in salaries...

Most of them don't make nearly as much as you seem to fear they do, with a full tenured professor at all but the fanciest schools topping out around $80K or so, with top administrators getting perhaps twice that on average. There are exceptions, on both sides of the curve.

In other words, your average educator earns in a year about what your average corporate scumbag steals in a week . . . or a good day. :r

[mithrilG60]

Most of them don't make nearly as much as you seem to fear they do, with a full tenured professor at all but the fanciest schools topping out around $80K or so, with top administrators getting perhaps twice that on average. There are exceptions, on both sides of the curve.

This. For example I currently work as a senior IT admin in a public health authority (completely unrelated to my degree in Molecular Biology and Biochemistry btw), my father was a toxicology professor and my uncle-in-law a history prof.. both retired as full profs at the top of their institutions pay scales. 10 years into my career I make about $12K - $15K more than my uncle and about $5K less than my father, compared to wages at retirement in both cases. Academics is not a profession to choose if your career ambition is to become wealthy.

[Old Sailor]

Try and pay that over here.....more like double the $$$$$ for that many!

[kaisersozei]

Most of them don't make nearly as much as you seem to fear they do, with a full tenured professor at all but the fanciest schools topping out around $80K or so, with top administrators getting perhaps twice that on average. There are exceptions, on both sides of the curve.

In other words, your average educator earns in a year about what your average corporate scumbag steals in a week . . . or a good day. :r

I would disagree with you. Salaries at public universities are available for some states per FOIA:

http://www.collegiatetimes.com/databases/salaries

Data here show that most of the administrators & many of the top faculty at even the "non-fancy" schools are raking in considerable salaries, not to mention state-provided benefit packages. Your state may vary, I just checked Virginia & NY schools as a basis.

[Dave128]

I wish I had had access to a GI bill or something of the sort when I went to college straight out of high school. My grades weren't the best, so there were no schlarships available to me. Took me darn near ten years to pay off my loans. All on my own with very little help from my family. My dad told that if he had to pay for his education that I should too. I guess in the end it made me appreciate it that much more, but a little help would have been nice.

[mosesbotbol]

College is a scam in general. They are all in collusion like insurance companies.

[loki]

Once the format becomes obsolete, the electricity goes out, the battery dies, you drop your reader, or whatever; then where are you? Books are already perfect the way they are, and require nothing else in order to read. All electronic media requires hardware, software and power support in order to function. A book requires only itself.

you can misplace a book, you can get it wet, books become obsolete and are more expensive to change leading to fewer changes and they are all but unsearchable. Books are dead tech, it's time to move into another format.

[shilala]

If you think college is expensive, you oughta see how expensive stupid is!!! :r

[Subvet642]

If you think college is expensive, you oughta see how expensive stupid is!!! :r

I work at a Harvard teaching hospital, and believe me, college is no inoculation against stupid.

[Subvet642]

you can misplace a book, you can get it wet, books become obsolete and are more expensive to change leading to fewer changes and they are all but unsearchable. Books are dead tech, it's time to move into another format.

You can misplace a reader, it can get wet, dropped, corrupted by a virus or destroyed by EMP. Books are indeed searchable; it's called an index. If you lose a book, it's one book; if you lose a reader, you lose all your "books". If you drop a reader, it's toast. I wonder how old the oldest surviving e-text is. The Dead Sea Scrolls are about 2000 years old. Does anybody expect any electronic text to survive that long?

[loki]

You can misplace a reader, it can get wet, dropped, corrupted by a virus or destroyed by EMP. Books are indeed searchable; it's called an index. If you lose a book, it's one book; if you lose a reader, you lose all your "books". If you drop a reader, it's toast. I wonder how old the oldest surviving e-text is. The Dead Sea Scrolls are about 2000 years old. Does anybody expect any electronic text to survive that long?

I can count on one had the number of times I've damaged a piece of electiontics to the point they needed repaired, it's one, and the number of times I've lost one is never. I'm not going to argue this with you because there's no reason to. you like books and I prefer ereaders. not a big deal in the grand scheme of the board. have a good weekend mate.

[M1903A1]

I work at a Harvard teaching hospital, and believe me, college is no inoculation against stupid.

Sometimes I swear it enhances it....

[mosesbotbol]

The eReader should have its data in a cloud so nothing is lost beyond the hardware itself.

[The Poet]

I would disagree with you. Salaries at public universities are available for some states per FOIA:

You may disagree all you wish, and you may even be correct. However, one cannot within reason compare (for instance) the salary of a renowned research scientist in charge of a cutting edge lab at Illinois or UCLA with a professor of sociology at Podunk College . . . and there are a LOT more of the latter than the former. The initial question was regarding the cost of a college education in general, with an inquiry about how salaries affect the expense. The aforesaid researcher may indeed earn (and I do mean EARN) $200K, while he is leading to discoveries which others without his skills or knowledge will make billions.

[Mugen910]

half.com was where I used to get mine...or just make friends from a different section of the class and split the costs.

[tedrodgerscpa]

Ouch...

Before "lynch a professor weekend" starts, please be aware that not all involved in the Ivory Tower are corrupt.

Painful generalizations can sometimes bring harm to those you least intend.

Best,

Ted

[Mugen910]

Ouch...

Before "lynch a professor weekend" starts, please be aware that not all involved in the Ivory Tower are corrupt.

Painful generalizations can sometimes bring harm to those you least intend.

Best,

Ted

So you admit that there is corruption!!! :r

[The Poet]

So you admit that there is corruption!!! :r

There is malfeasance of a sort, anyway. E.g., as relates to the original complaint regarding the high cost of textbooks, note that is has long been a practice of professors to pen their own textbook, then require it to be purchased for their own course . . . regardless of whether or not a suitable text already exists, and one that might be superior to said prof's creation. In this way, the professor can enhance his income without benefit of a raise in salary from the administration, yet the practice can increase the cost of the education process for the students.

[kaisersozei]

You may disagree all you wish, and you may even be correct. However, one cannot within reason compare (for instance) the salary of a renowned research scientist in charge of a cutting edge lab at Illinois or UCLA with a professor of sociology at Podunk College . . . and there are a LOT more of the latter than the former. The initial question was regarding the cost of a college education in general, with an inquiry about how salaries affect the expense. The aforesaid researcher may indeed earn (and I do mean EARN) $200K, while he is leading to discoveries which others without his skills or knowledge will make billions.

I'm not sure I follow. Not picking an argument with you, Thomas, but your original post drew a comparison of salaries between professors/college admins & "corporate scumbags." My link showed that very, very many of those professors earn considerably more than $80-160k/yr, even at the Podunk Colleges. And that was only for public universities in 15 states. So I think you can reasonably infer that some of what Devan & others (like my kids :bh) experience in the high cost of college education is related to these salaries.

I'm not sure why you're bringing in a comparison to business executives and those in corporate America--I can't see what that has to do with the price of education.

[Stephen]

you can misplace a book, you can get it wet, books become obsolete and are more expensive to change leading to fewer changes and they are all but unsearchable. Books are dead tech, it's time to move into another format.
Aren't all these true for electronic devices as well? Not a good counter-argument.

[shark]

Most of them don't make nearly as much as you seem to fear they do, with a full tenured professor at all but the fanciest schools topping out around $80K or so, with top administrators getting perhaps twice that on average. There are exceptions, on both sides of the curve.

In other words, your average educator earns in a year about what your average corporate scumbag steals in a week . . . or a good day. :r

University of Michigan-Dearborn pays a lot of their top people well over $200,000 per year...ask anyone going there or who has gone to any of the U of M campuses (there are 3) and they'll tell you that the tuition, books, etc. was not cheap. I'd imagine it's pretty much the same with others like Michigan State, Oakland U, Wayne State, Western, Central, Lawrence Tech, Michigan Tech, etc. etc.

[Stephen]

Most of them don't make nearly as much as you seem to fear they do, with a full tenured professor at all but the fanciest schools topping out around $80K or so, with top administrators getting perhaps twice that on average. There are exceptions, on both sides of the curve.

In other words, your average educator earns in a year about what your average corporate scumbag steals in a week . . . or a good day. :r
This doesn't pass the smell test. We have fully tenured public high school teachers with M. Ed. in my school district earning upwards of 50k a year (not including benefits).

[shark]

And remember, kiddies: PhD really means Piled High and Deep!:fu

[357]

Once the format becomes obsolete, the electricity goes out, the battery dies, you drop your reader, or whatever; then where are you? Books are already perfect the way they are, and require nothing else in order to read. All electronic media requires hardware, software and power support in order to function. A book requires only itself.

PDF format has been around for over 18 years. Yes that pales in comparison to the Dead Sea Scrolls, but that's hardly a valid comparison. Old formats can be opened in the new versions of the FREE reader application. BTW, it costs $0.000000000000000001 in electricity to create duplicates of your books in another place such as in your GMAIL inbox. Which, by the way, is on redundant disks, hosted on redundant servers, which have physical off site backup copies, possibly even on multiple CONTINENTS. I'm thinking my electronic data can survive a coffee spill better than a paperback POS. Worst case scenario, you can purchase and download a new copy 24/7. Good luck finding a bookstore with your book in stock and open at 4:00 AM on finals night.

My last semester they had just started offering most books in electronic forms. I got one book like that bc it was a ton cheaper, but I discovered I prefer to have a hard copy. Highlighting and flipping pages checking you're scribbled margin notes is a lot more effective, IMHO, on a hard copy than an electronic one.

This is a much better argument for paper books but still falls short. The fact is many people just prefer them. Fine. I have no problem with that, but don't make that the only option so you can swindle students. Offer the electronic version for 1/4 the price. Let those who want to buy the full version do so. Let the rest who want a paper copy simply print the PDF off at their own cost. Then they can highlight, scribble notes, etc, without actually modifying the original file.

I guess you can count on higher education to be 10-20 years behind in technology. We're in the midst of the information era, with streaming 1080p to handheld devices/phones, and we expect intelligent college students to pay $400 for a bound pile of paper equvalent to 3-4 MB worth of data? I get there is valuable information contained in that book, but our generation has grown up plugged into the internet. The whole concept of the internet is free or cheap information. It's a tough pill to swallow. Not to mention the situation above when a professor writes his own book, makes it mandatory, rapes you on the price, and happens to be the only professor for that course; which is in turn required for your degree. In my meager 18 months of college I experienced this twice.

[mithrilG60]

PDF format has been around for over 18 years. Yes that pales in comparison to the Dead Sea Scrolls, but that's hardly a valid comparison. Old formats can be opened in the new versions of the FREE reader application. BTW, it costs $0.000000000000000001 in electricity to create duplicates of your books in another place such as in your GMAIL inbox. Which, by the way, is on redundant disks, hosted on redundant servers, which have physical off site backup copies, possibly even on multiple CONTINENTS. I'm thinking my electronic data can survive a coffee spill better than a paperback POS. Worst case scenario, you can purchase and download a new copy 24/7. Good luck finding a bookstore with your book in stock and open at 4:00 AM on finals night.

Not to mention pure physical space. When I think of the amount, and weight, of crap I carted about in uni compared to the size of a tablet I just shake my head. Especially given that text books were in my experience typically just reference material I'd guesstimate that 90% of the text books I owned over the course of my degree never had the spine cracked because everything I needed to know for the course was in the lecture material.

Many programs in Canadian universities are now going entirely to ePub and other electronic formats. Several trades schools in my area now require the purchase of an iPad because all materials will be distributed on it and in doing so many programs have cut book costs from several hundred/thousand per year to just $50 - $100 (excluding the one time iPad cost of course).

Physical books will always have their place, however they have less and less importance in daily life. I have over 400 novels and technical reference materials on my iPad... a device that weighs just over 1 lbs and occupies less space than 1 week's worth of handwritten notes (w/o the binder to store them in). When I get around to returning to uni for a masters I can't imagine why I'd ever want to go back to lugging around big heavy textbooks?

[shark]

I still read books, and I read them by candlelight! :tu (no, not really...)

[The Poet]

I'm not sure I follow. Not picking an argument with you, Thomas, but your original post drew a comparison of salaries between professors/college admins & "corporate scumbags."
.

.

.

I'm not sure why you're bringing in a comparison to business executives and those in corporate America--I can't see what that has to do with the price of education.

The only point of argument I foresee is the implied (and stated) "blame" for the cost of higher education placed upon the faculty. To me, it is akin to blaming the high cost of an automobile upon the wages of the workers who make it, while giving the CEO who takes home 300 times as much (yes, that is the generally accepted figure with major US corporations these lopsided days) a full pass. Furthermore, it ignores the other expenses involved at any school, large or small, such as the physical plant. Not only are the existing facilities expensive to maintain (how many plumbers, electricians, mechanics, carpenters, masons etc. do you think it takes, and how much do they earn?), but with the increased demand for spaces in colleges there is the concomitant need for expansion. Also, in the case of state-supported schools, the budget crunch that have led legislators to decrease financial support, at the demand of taxpayers mind you, means the schools must make up that shortfall in some way . . . either that, or cut things to the bone, and run the risk of collapse, and a failure of the responsibilities that led to their foundation in the first place. So those taxpayers who, for reasons good or selfish, refused to contribute to higher education via their tax burden are then faced with the alternative of ponying up as much, or more, cake when their children matriculate. Sorry, but their laments fall upon my deaf ears. It's their bed, and they should bear it lumps and all.

As for the relationship between education and business, consider for instance the work of a biochemist in a university lab making whatever 6-figure income you wish to envision, then consider the Big Pharma giant that uses his research in order to charge you $30, $80, $120, $450 for a pill that cost them 7 cents to produce.

And if you have a problem with my "corporate scumbag" remark, I shall only ask you note the potential significance of the :r I included. ;)