Palio Concerns -

[Stevez]

I know that Palio's are loved by most of the brothers here and I may be opening a door that others don't want opened. But, I invested in a Palio about a year and half ago and it cut great for awhile. Then, it totally came apart and I sent it in and it was replaced with no questions/concerns, etc. Great service from a brother here. Just recently one of the blades fell out. Now, I'm not hard on cutters by any means, but I have to question the durability of these cutters. It's a pain in the a3$#SSS to have to send this back even though the warranty is great and I know it will be covered. I'm just lazy, I know, and I will do it. My question is have others experienced problems with these cutters or am I just "bad luck". Maybe it's user error, I don't know. Thanks. Steve

[RonC]

Steve, I would say that my return rate is under 1%. Of all the cutters out there that sell in the same price range, I am pretty sure that the Palio return rate is the lowest.

[DBall]

I know that Palio's are loved by most of the brothers here and I may be opening a door that others don't want opened. But, I invested in a Palio about a year and half ago and it cut great for awhile. Then, it totally came apart and I sent it in and it was replaced with no questions/concerns, etc. Great service from a brother here. Just recently one of the blades fell out. Now, I'm not hard on cutters by any means, but I have to question the durability of these cutters. It's a pain in the a3$#SSS to have to send this back even though the warranty is great and I know it will be covered. I'm just lazy, I know, and I will do it. My question is have others experienced problems with these cutters or am I just "bad luck". Maybe it's user error, I don't know. Thanks. Steve

I've had 2 XiKar's just stop working... haven't even bothered sending the second back yet (I'm lazy too). The Palios, on the other hand, have never had any problems.

That's just my experience, though... kinda like lighters. Some people say Ronson Jetlites suck, I've had mine for about 4 years and never had a problem. Luck of the draw, I suppose...

[kafreeman]

I've had 2 XiKar's just stop working... haven't even bothered sending the second back yet (I'm lazy too). The Palios, on the other hand, have never had any problems.

That's just my experience, though... kinda like lighters. Some people say Ronson Jetlites suck, I've had mine for about 4 years and never had a problem. Luck of the draw, I suppose...

No experience on the palios, but ive picked up 3 Ronson's.... one works, one half works, ones a POS that never worked.

[LasciviousXXX]

I own 5 Palios and I've never experienced a problem like you have. My experience has always been great with them. Definitely send it in :tu

[poker]

Like Týr, I also own around 5-6 Palios and never had a problem like you experienced.

[massphatness]

have others experienced problems with these cutters or am I just "bad luck".

I would tend to say you've had some bad luck -- I've never heard of guys have repeat issues with Palios. I've never personally had a problem with any of mine, and if there were significant repeat issues, I wouldn't think Palio would be as beloved as they are.

You're going to have to get a new cutter anyway -- why pay for one? Send in the Palio and have them replace it. Here's to the third time being a charm!

:tu

[icehog3]

I use my Palio almost every day, and haven't had an issue in over 5 years of use.

[DPD6030]

When I cut cigars I use my palio. I've had xikar and others and sold, gifted or traded those out. I love my palio. Like others have said...send it in and get a new one.

[RonC]

Stevez, send it back to me, and I will get you out a new one.

[tenbaseg]

IIRC, If you are local to a shop that sells them, you can just go in and exchange it. It shouldn't need to be the shop that sold it to you.

[kelmac07]

Stevez, you and Tbone are the only two BOTLs that I have ever heard this with. Tbone went through five Palios. I have had the same one for over 2.5 years with no issues at all. :2

[landhoney]

I'm at 4+ years, with mine and it is still going strong. :tu

[Don Fernando]

I know that Palio's are loved by most of the brothers here and I may be opening a door that others don't want opened. But, I invested in a Palio about a year and half ago and it cut great for awhile. Then, it totally came apart and I sent it in and it was replaced with no questions/concerns, etc. Great service from a brother here. Just recently one of the blades fell out. Now, I'm not hard on cutters by any means, but I have to question the durability of these cutters. It's a pain in the a3$#SSS to have to send this back even though the warranty is great and I know it will be covered. I'm just lazy, I know, and I will do it. My question is have others experienced problems with these cutters or am I just "bad luck". Maybe it's user error, I don't know. Thanks. Steve

been using palio's for a couple of years, never had any problems

[STEVE S]

I'v been using my Palio for 5 years, and have had no problems. One of my freinds has been using his for 19 years, and it is still going strong. Please send it back and hopefully #3 is the charm. :tu

[baddevildog82]

I have only had one but it was a great cutter. I lost it last year though and need to pickup another one.

[Stevez]

Thanks all and I will send it back in. Ron, it will be on its way soon and I hope no one here thinks I was trying to call anyone out. Not at all. I have dealt with Ron before and it was a fantastic experience. I will send it back for sure and thanks again. steve

[markem]

Ron and Palio are good people and it is never wrong to see if your experience is an anomaly or not. I hope that your bad luck with the Palio is over and that the new one serves you for years to come.

[area51]

Back in Jan I had a blade fall out as well. I wound up just tossing it though :/

[Ranger_B]

Mine has been around the world two times with me in some of the hottest and coldest places over the last 5 years and is still my sharpest cutter. I am glad you are going to send it in and get another. That is why the warranty is there. I am sure it is bad luck and the 3rd time is the charm.

[BC-Axeman]

If I open mine too fast I can get it to jump it's stops and come apart. I have done this a couple of times in the past five years but I just put it back together and open it less energetically afterwards. It's cut hundreds of cigars and still cuts perfectly.

[cajun]

Must be unlucky. I would send it in as you said you would. Better luck with the next one. Never had a bit of problems with mine but its only 3 months old.

[Tbagley]

Anything and everything can give up the ghost on rare moments.

[TBone]

Stevez, you and Tbone are the only two BOTLs that I have ever heard this with. Tbone went through five Palios. I have had the same one for over 2.5 years with no issues at all. :2

Steve, Mac is right and I have another that needs to go back because it shreds and not cuts the cigar...

[icehog3]

I'v been using my Palio for 5 years, and have had no problems. One of my freinds has been using his for 19 years, and it is still going strong. Please send it back and hopefully #3 is the charm. :tu

Wow, I had no idea Palio has been around for 19 years.

[J0eybb]

Wow, I had no idea Palio has been around for 19 years.

Maybe he meant 90

[icehog3]

Maybe he meant 90

:tf

[J0eybb]

:tf

:hy

Going to need more foil.

[Dunkel]

I had mine for about a year and a half. It got dull and wouldn't cut right. I sent it back and got a new one. All is good.

[Eleven]

If I open mine too fast I can get it to jump it's stops and come apart. I have done this a couple of times in the past five years but I just put it back together and open it less energetically afterwards. It's cut hundreds of cigars and still cuts perfectly.

Same thing happens with mine.

[Shadow]

I've had three and only had problem with one: when the freakin' airline lost my luggage when I went to Vegas several years ago and my Palio was in the luggage.

Went through Palio withdrawal for the entire week I was there. As soon as I got home ordered a replacement.

[awsmith4]

I have seen one come completely apart and the blades separate from the housing. This was caused by the cutter running through the dryer and the temps getting so hot that the glue that holds the blades released its bond.

Other than user error, I have yet to have any other issues

[CigarNut]

I have seen one come completely apart and the blades separate from the housing. This was caused by the cutter running through the dryer and the temps getting so hot that the glue that holds the blades released its bond.

Other than user error, I have yet to have any other issuesI'd call that "user error" :r

[mariogolbee]

I have one Palio that only pinches my cigars now and breaks the head. I have one that comes apart and the blades fall out, but it does go back together again and cuts well. I'll bring them into a shop eventually; I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

I have a Xikar xi? that broke a spring and an mtx where the bottle opener bent while opening a bottle. I sent those in eventually and got them replaced.

Stuff breaks and gets dull. I'm glad both Xikar and Palio have guarantees like they do. All in all, I prefer the cut on my Xikar better though.

[AlohaStyle]

Sorry to hear you are having problems. I've used mine for 2 years with no issues.

With that said, what is the proper way to clean/maintain them? I remember reading about it a long time ago, but don't remember the proper way. Do you guys lubricate them and if so, what do you use?

[CigarDoc]

I've had mine for 4 years and I've never had an issue with it. It's my favorite cutter, although I use a pair of Davidoff scissors when I'm at the house. The Palio is in my Max Benjamin bag.

[massphatness]

I have one Palio that only pinches my cigars now and breaks the head. I have one that comes apart and the blades fall out, but it does go back together again and cuts well. I'll bring them into a shop eventually; I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

I have a Xikar xi? that broke a spring and an mtx where the bottle opener bent while opening a bottle. I sent those in eventually and got them replaced.

Stuff breaks and gets dull. I'm glad both Xikar and Palio have guarantees like they do. All in all, I prefer the cut on my Xikar better though.

Mario - your issues have more to do with your gargantuan thumbs than a specific issue with the product.

Just sayin, bro.

:D

[Stevez]

Mario - your issues have more to do with your gargantuan thumbs than a specific issue with the product.

Just sayin, bro.

:D

Damn, that may be the answer after all! I too have massive thumbs. Seriously, thanks for all the feedback and I'm going to ship it back this weekend. Steve

[mariogolbee]

Mario - your issues have more to do with your gargantuan thumbs than a specific issue with the product.

Just sayin, bro.

:D

:r There is some truth in there I'm sure. :)

[jwintosh]

my dog chewed up my carbon fiber. that was the only problem i've experienced!! haha.

[moedavis]

i had the same problem, blades fell out. i worry one day i will accidentally cut myself. i bought a xikar v-cutter a few months ago and haven't looked back.

[area51]

I loved my palio until the blades fell out then like you I bought an xikar

[Volusianator]

I've had 2 XiKar's just stop working...

How does a Xikar cutter just "stop working"?

[loki]

what are ya'll doing that you're having blades fall out of your palios?

[Volusianator]

I had a blade come unglued as well, simply mixed a very small amount of JB Weld and it will never fall out again.

[Tyler]

what are ya'll doing that you're having blades fall out of your palios?

You mean it's not recommended for cutting rebar?

[NCRadioMan]

I had a blade come unglued as well, simply mixed a very small amount of JB Weld and it will never fall out again.

But that involves actually doing something! I want everything to work perfectly all the time without me having to do anything. ;)


I was with a local botl last night and his Xikar stopped working. It fell completely apart when he opened it. :r

[mariogolbee]

what are ya'll doing that you're having blades fall out of your palios?
Mine comes apart easily and then the blades fall out. I'm not sure how the blades would fall out without the Palio coming apart. The funny thing it cuts better than the carbon fiber style one that doesn't come apart. I don't even use the carbon fiber one anymore because it cracks the heads of cigars.

I had a blade come unglued as well, simply mixed a very small amount of JB Weld and it will never fall out again.
Couldn't that possibly mess up the gap between the blades?

I just have to get around to bringing these in some time. Like I mentioned before, it took me months to finally send in my broken Xikar stuff. Hey, stuff breaks or malfunctions. That's why I'm glad Palio and Xikar products are fully warrantied for life. If they weren't, I probably wouldn't pay the premium.

[Tyler]

Mine comes apart easily and then the blades fall out. I'm not sure how the blades would fall out without the Palio coming apart. The funny thing it cuts better than the carbon fiber style one that doesn't come apart. I don't even use the carbon fiber one anymore because it cracks the heads of cigars.


Couldn't that possibly mess up the gap between the blades?

I just have to get around to bringing these in some time. Like I mentioned before, it took me months to finally send in my broken Xikar stuff. Hey, stuff breaks or malfunctions. That's why I'm glad Palio and Xikar products are fully warrantied for life. If they weren't, I probably wouldn't pay the premium.

Agreed on the warranty. If they did not have it I would bot have bought one last week. I know that if anything goes wrong within normal usage I will be covered. It's a no brainer. :tu

[mariogolbee]

I had a blade come unglued as well, simply mixed a very small amount of JB Weld and it will never fall out again.

But that involves actually doing something! I want everything to work perfectly all the time without me having to do anything. ;)
I don't own any JB Weld. If I did, and it worked fine, then that'd be okay. But doesn't it make sense to expect a product you paid for to work properly? I'm fine with the shipping costs involved in having to send a product in for repair. But should I have to go out and BUY some JB Weld to make a product work that I already paid good money for? At MSRP that makes my $40-60 Palio into a $45-65+ Palio that I had to repair myself. That figure doesn't include possible taxes and shipping costs either. Does this mean that all of the Xbox 360 owners who got the RRoD on their consoles should have to dish out the repair costs for their systems?

Don't get me wrong, I love my Palios when they work. I prefer my Xikar products a little more, but I use both. With Xikar and Palio I expect to get what I pay for, which is a premium. I don't mind turning them in to get them repaired or replaces, but if I am to be expected to try to make fix stuff myself then I would just opt for a $2 cutter and chuck it when it breaks or no longer cuts.

[loki]

i've had the same cutter for 4 years and have never had a problem. i must be doing it wrong

[NCRadioMan]

But doesn't it make sense to expect a product you paid for to work properly?

No, not 100% of the time. That's why companies have to keep making products. They break, and wear out. Just a matter of time.

Yeah, JB weld has been known to break the bank. And God forbid trying to fix it myself. :r

[AlohaStyle]

Any recs for cleaning/maintaining Palios? I know I've read it before but can't find info. Do you guys use a certain lubricant or simply clean out tracks/blades good?

[mariogolbee]

i've had the same cutter for 4 years and have never had a problem. i must be doing it wrong
I'm sure most of them work just fine, forever. If they were all breaking then Palio wouldn't be around still.
No, not 100% of the time. That's why companies have to keep making products. They break, and wear out. Just a matter of time.

Yeah, JB weld has been known to break the bank. And God forbid trying to fix it myself. :r

Yes, they do wear out. Which is why if were not for the great warranty then a $2 cutter would be preferable.

JB Weld is not expensive. But if I were to buy it just to fix my Palio, then my Palio suddenly costs me 10-20% more. If you don't mind paying more then by all means. I don't see the sense in doing so, but to each his own.

Nothing wrong with trying to fix something yourself IF you are that kind of person and you don't mind. There are somethings I fix myself and some I do not. I pay for gardening service at my home. Why in the hell would I go out and mow the lawn if I have a gardener already paid to do it? When I made the decision to purchase a Palio I factored that cost in to the premium.

Answer me this, Dan. If you bought a new car with one of those schnazzy oil change plans would you change your own oil or take it in to have it changed? Why go out, buy oil and a filter and a plug, get all up under your care and get dirty, if you already paid someone else to do these things for you? It just doesn't make any sense to IMO.

[markem]

Any recs for cleaning/maintaining Palios? I know I've read it before but can't find info. Do you guys use a certain lubricant or simply clean out tracks/blades good?

http://www.paliocutter.com/care.htm

[Volusianator]

Couldn't that possibly mess up the gap between the blades?



Apply adhesive, close cutter, gap set, glue dries overnight, problem solved.

[Volusianator]

But doesn't it make sense to expect a product you paid for to work properly?

Whoa, I hope you don't ever purchase a vehicle!

Of course we'd like things we buy to work perfectly all the time, but sometimes they don't. Can you send it back and get a new one, of course, if someone is actually to lazy to send it back, then that's their problem, Palio can't fix what they don't know is broke. For me, I have JB Weld at home, you could use something else as well. I guess just me, I'd rather fix it in 24 hours of glue dry time, and have a perfectly working item tomorrow than wait a week for a company to replace something that the consumer could've fixed on their own. My little part to help Palio as well, they don't have to ship out a free product, pay shipping, take the time to do it. :2

[area51]

Apply adhesive, close cutter, gap set, glue dries overnight, problem solved.

Im sorry but if im buying a product i expect it to work all the time. Maybe im naive.

[Cornrow_Wallis]

JB Weld is not expensive. But if I were to buy it just to fix my Palio, then my Palio suddenly costs me 10-20% more. If you don't mind paying more then by all means. I don't see the sense in doing so, but to each his own.


Not that I disagree with sending the cutter back, but this is assuming you buy the tube of glue and use it once on the palio and for nothing else. I use that crap all the time for various little household chores. I would get added value every time I used the jb weld. It is nice to have around so I don't necessarily see it as adding to the cost of the cutter. To each his own.

[Volusianator]

Im sorry but if im buying a product i expect it to work all the time. Maybe im naive.

That's totally unrealistic.

Ever had a car repair?
Ever needed a plumber?
Ever had the HVAC guy come over?
Lawn mower never has an issue?

A cutter, yeah, it should work, but if it's an easy fix, I'm not wasting the time of the company when I can simply do it myself. I'm just not that lazy.

[Volusianator]

Not that I disagree with sending the cutter back, but this is assuming you buy the tube of glue and use it once on the palio and for nothing else. I use that crap all the time for various little household chores. I would get added value every time I used the jb weld. It is nice to have around so I don't necessarily see it as adding to the cost of the cutter. To each his own.

Amen to that, use it once and you'll wonder how you ever lived without it. Of course you could live in that other world where stuff never breaks.

[mariogolbee]

Apply adhesive, close cutter, gap set, glue dries overnight, problem solved.
May be worth a try some time. IF it doesn't void the warranty, which I doubt it would. I'll have to read more up on that.
Whoa, I hope you don't ever purchase a vehicle!

Of course we'd like things we buy to work perfectly all the time, but sometimes they don't. Can you send it back and get a new one, of course, if someone is actually to lazy to send it back, then that's their problem, Palio can't fix what they don't know is broke. For me, I have JB Weld at home, you could use something else as well. I guess just me, I'd rather fix it in 24 hours of glue dry time, and have a perfectly working item tomorrow than wait a week for a company to replace something that the consumer could've fixed on their own. My little part to help Palio as well, they don't have to ship out a free product, pay shipping, take the time to do it. :2
As with the car analogy I used earlier, if I'm paying a premium for a shiny new car and I considered the warranty as a selling point, then I'd expect to use that warranty. I have most always owned used cars, and have thus expected to have to pay for repairs. Again, when I've bought $2 cutters and lighters I've not expected them to last long. When I buy a cutter or lighter that literally costs 20-30 times that amount I expect it to work.

If I had JB Weld, or something similar on hand I might give it a shot after hearing your sound suggestion. But I don't, and shouldn't be expected to go out and spend the extra cash to get some when I paid for that shiny warranty. I'll just wait until I get to a B&M to replace my 2 Palios. Meanwhile I'll use my Xikars and when the Palio that comes apart does so, I'll simply put it back together again.
Not that I disagree with sending the cutter back, but this is assuming you buy the tube of glue and use it once on the palio and for nothing else. I use that crap all the time for various little household chores. I would get added value every time I used the jb weld. It is nice to have around so I don't necessarily see it as adding to the cost of the cutter. To each his own.
Interesting. Perhaps I'll pick some up some time.
That's totally unrealistic.

Ever had a car repair?

A cutter, yeah, it should work, but if it's an easy fix, I'm not wasting the time of the company when I can simply do it myself. I'm just not that lazy.
Yep, had car repairs. When buying a new car I shouldn't have to worry about that.

I think your use of the word lazy is somewhat offensive. In the sense I see you using it, it means that if someone isn't doing what you do, then they are lazy. Which would include myself and several others. I'm not sure that you are consciously doing this, but I thought I'd mention it. I don't think this is your intent, but I could be wrong.

[AlohaStyle]

http://www.paliocutter.com/care.htm

Thank you. duh, that's where I've read it before... :( :sl :td LOL

[T.G]

Yes, they do wear out. Which is why if were not for the great warranty then a $2 cutter would be preferable.


So the warranty is the only reason you bought the Palio at $44 more than the $2 cutter? :rolleyes:

And you did it twice?

[CigarNut]

...For me, I have JB Weld at home...

...I use that crap all the time for various little household chores. I would get added value every time I used the jb weld. It is nice to have around so I don't necessarily see it as adding to the cost of the cutter...The problem is that I go out and buy JB Weld (or super glue or some other glue) use it, and either forget where I put it and go out and buy another one, or by the time I get around to needing the glue, it has dried up...

The bottom line is that some people like to fix it themselves and some don't. Both are OK -- just like cigars it's all up to the individual to do what he (or she) likes... :2

[Tyler]

Thanks for the link to the website about the care. I had forgotten to look it up and I didn't know they had their own website. :tu

[mariogolbee]

So the warranty is the only reason you bought the Palio at $44 more than the $2 cutter? :rolleyes:

And you did it twice?
No, it's not the only reason. But I would not have purchased it without the warranty. Come on now, Adam. I would think that you would have seen the parts of my posts stating that they are great, cutters, most don't break, etc. This thread is titled "Palio Concerns," not "Another Hooray for Palio Thread." So, I'm stating my concerns. I think most of them cut well, look sharp, and seem to last forever. Mine did not.

Edit: A $2 cutter would preferable over a broken $40-60 cutter that did not have a warranty, no matter how great the quality when operational. Ferdie's beautiful AVO punch was just tits until it broke and he couldn't get it replaced IIRC.

[mariogolbee]

The problem is that I go out and buy JB Weld (or super glue or some other glue) use it, and either forget where I put it and go out and buy another one, or by the time I get around to needing the glue, it has dried up...

The bottom line is that some people like to fix it themselves and some don't. Both are OK -- just like cigars it's all up to the individual to do what he (or she) likes... :2
:tu I have a huge bottle of Gorilla Glue that I got to use twice ever. I needed it recently to fix something and it was hard as nails. I kept it in a cool, shaded location with the cap on. A waste of $20.

[T.G]

Just pointing out that the way you wrote that, it implied that the warranty was the only difference.

We both know that's not true, hence the :rolleyes:

[T.G]

:tu I have a huge bottle of Gorilla Glue that I got to use twice ever. I needed it recently to fix something and it was hard as nails. I kept it in a cool, shaded location with the cap on. A waste of $20.

You know, they do make smaller size bottles, and they cost a lot less. Just sayin'...

[mariogolbee]

Just pointing out that the way you wrote that, it implied that the warranty was the only difference.

We both know that's not true, hence the :rolleyes:
Ahh... Gotcha. I'd like to clarify. I think that Palios are wonderful little cutters. They cut great and are quite beautiful. I've even given away a third Palio to another BOTL. My two are having issues, but this is not the norm. However, had it not been for the fabulous warranty, I would not have purchased one at or near retail price.

[mariogolbee]

You know, they do make smaller size bottles, and they cost a lot less. Just sayin'...
Yep, they have the little 2oz ones or whatever. I went for value. It dried up on me. I just did a quick net search and found the 2oz for $5 and $8. So, if I get some I can do a repair for $5 and have a tube that will probably harden faster due to less surface area. Thanks though. I'll likely end up getting some at some point anyway.

[T.G]

However, had it not been for the fabulous warranty, I would not have purchased one at or near retail price.

Each their own. Years ago, I paid a lot more for my Zino cutter than what a palio goes for today, and I didn't even know it had a lifetime warranty. I just wanted a good, solid, sharp, precise cutter that, short of loss, I wouldn't have to replace.

[markem]

I just wanted a good, solid, sharp, precise cutter that, short of loss, I wouldn't have to replace.

QFT. Whether we buy a $2 cutter or a $100 cutter, we all want one that will do what it was designed to do efficiently and without problems. Sometimes problems happen even with the best product and that's where the peace of mind with the warranty comes in handy.

[mariogolbee]

Each their own. Years ago, I paid a lot more for my Zino cutter than what a palio goes for today, and I didn't even know it had a lifetime warranty. I just wanted a good, solid, sharp, precise cutter that, short of loss, I wouldn't have to replace.
And if I did the same in regards to these two Palios and they had no warranty I'd be out $100 because one comes apart and the other crushes my cigars. I am not in the position at this point in my life to throw caution to the wind and make a purchase like that which may or may not last. I dished out the cash a while back for one of the Xikar Mayan cutters and a Xikar Mayan lighter. I did it for the aesthetics, the quality, the cut, etc., but I wouldn't have bought them with no warranty.

[mariogolbee]

QFT. Whether we buy a $2 cutter or a $100 cutter, we all want one that will do what it was designed to do efficiently and without problems. Sometimes problems happen even with the best product and that's where the peace of mind with the warranty comes in handy.
:tu

[Volusianator]

But I don't, and shouldn't be expected to go out and spend the extra cash to get some when I paid for that shiny warranty.

Xikar doesn't charge for their warranty.

[stevieray]

Gee whiz. What's all the hoopla about? All this talk about glue and laziness and whatnot. If the damn thing doesn't live up to your standards just go to any Palio retailer and swap it out. I can't think of anything else I own that has an iron clad warranty like the Palio. And for the record, I've owned my Palio since '06 and cut 3 cigars flawlessly today. :2

[BC-Axeman]

My Palio still works perfectly, yet because I don't always grab it or have nearby I have opened more cigars with my fingernail or knife lately. I don't want to go upstairs to get the Palio. Unless it's a torpedo or figurado, that is. I don't even know what happened to my $2 cutter and I never use my punch any more.