Sam Leccia's Debut on hold

[maninblack]

Sam just wrote on FB that his new cigar debut has been put on hold due to legal reasons (Oliva?). Also he's been barred from IPCPR due to legal reasons. I was really looking forward to his newest creation. Hope everything works out for you Sam! Best of luck.

[jesseboston81]

I think I read that Oliva sued him to enforce a do not compete clause in his contract with them.

Edit: Yup, here it is. (http://thecigarfeed.com/?p=7118) Oliva is claiming Sam is under a five-year non-compete agreement.

[maninblack]

I hope it can be resolved without getting too nasty in the courts. Sam is a talented guy.

[Emjaysmash]

Yep. I knew about the legal stuff, but ig uess now his line won't be coming out anytime soon. Hopefully it all works out. I've seen pics of the cigar and the band, it looks nice.

[jesseboston81]

I'm no expert, but as far as my amateur analysis goes, if a court is already preventing Sam from releasing his line and attending ICPCR then things don't look good for him. That smells like a preliminary injunction, which would mean that Oliva was able to persuade a judge that it has a good chance of prevailing in the overall lawsuit to enforce the agreement. That would mean that the only significant issue might wind up being whether five years is an appropriate length of time.

Again, this is all just my amateur reading of the few facts as we have them.

[LasciviousXXX]

Wow! 5 years is a hell of a length of time for a non-compete clause. I hope everything is able to be worked out in an amicable fashion.

[chippewastud79]

On the surface it certainly seems like the split with Oliva may not have been amicable. Sam may have been asked to leave under less than ideal circumstances for him and now Oliva is showing that perhaps they are less than happy with Sam trying to show them up with a new brand of hype stemming from the notariety of Oliva making him the face of the NuB and Cain lines. :hm

[jesseboston81]

There is definitely an injunction at play. (http://www.cigaraficionado.com/webfeatures/show/id/16018)

[Brutus2600]

That's really unfortunate since I think highly of both Sam and Oliva. Nice folk on either side...unfortunate to see them at odds.

However, as much as this is a brotherhood to us, I know this is a business for them. Contracts are contracts, although it seems odd that Sam would go ahead with a new cigar line if he knew he had a standing non-compete contract with Oliva.

I'm sure there is more to this story than we know.

[pgagnon]

My thought too Brian. It IS a weird move for the outsiders :/

[jesseboston81]

...although it seems odd that Sam would go ahead with a new cigar line if he knew he had a standing non-compete contract with Oliva.

This strikes me as the strangest part of this conflict, because Sam probably (I can't be sure because I'm not familiar with the specifics of Florida law) could have gone to a court to get a ruling as to the enforceability of the non-compete clause before investing resources into starting his new company. Maybe he thought he was in safe territory, outside of the clause?

If we're looking for a silver lining here, at least this means that any cigars he's already had made will likely be well aged before he can sell them!

[icehog3]

If we're looking for a silver lining here, at least this means that any cigars he's already had made will likely be well aged before he can sell them!

Although 5 years will take them well beyond The Rule of 3s. ;)

[jesseboston81]

Although 5 years will take them well beyond The Rule of 3s. ;)

Oh you're right! Petition to limit Sam's DNC to no more than three years!!

[Brutus2600]

Reasonable...I'm sure it will hold up in court :D lol

[loki]

That's really unfortunate since I think highly of both Sam and Oliva. Nice folk on either side...unfortunate to see them at odds.

However, as much as this is a brotherhood to us, I know this is a business for them. Contracts are contracts, although it seems odd that Sam would go ahead with a new cigar line if he knew he had a standing non-compete contract with Oliva.

I'm sure there is more to this story than we know.

i don't get a warm fuzzy feeling from anyone trying to stop someone else from making a living. when you're knowledge and experience is in one area, i don't see how you can limit a person from using that to provide for his family

[hscmit]

non compete clauses are fairly standard in many industries especially when their is a significant investment made by the company into an individual (as in this case)

[Brutus2600]

i don't get a warm fuzzy feeling from anyone trying to stop someone else from making a living. when you're knowledge and experience is in one area, i don't see how you can limit a person from using that to provide for his family

While it isn't something I like, it's not an uncommon business practice to have a non-compete clause when an employee leaves a company. I can't say it's not a dick move, but it's not necessarily a surprise either.

[chippewastud79]

Oliva put a lot of time and money into the creating, promoting and distributing the NuB and Cain line and had the foresight to make someone like Sam the face of it. It seems Sam thought he was going to able to immediately transfer the success given to him by Oliva to his own company. Apparently Oliva had different ideas and knew this when they put the non-compete clause in his contract. If he had left on good terms, would they allow him to compete immediately? :hm

Also remember that Sam was going to need another large cigar company to make, promote and distribute his new line. Again, Oliva probably doesn't want to allow him to transfer the image/success they created for him to another 'competitor' in the industry. Not knowing much about competition amongst the large companies, it may be to prevent him from helping another company or it may be out of spite based on the nature of the split from Oliva. :sh

[area51]

Im disappointed in this delay but hopefully everything works out.

[Don Fernando]

Although I understand the lawsuit and with the information I have Oliva is right to sue Sam, I think the timing is aweful and will not only hurt Sam but also Oliva as they are 'the bad guys' now in a lot of comments I read online.

[LostAbbott]

Typically NC's don't hold up too well in court. The last one I remember was an exec. leaving Microsoft for Google. MSFT tried to sue but got no where. I am not sure with the case of Sam though because it is very direct competition, also I would not be surprised if his new cigar was very similar to the Cain and NUB cigars he already made.

I would like to put my self on the top of the list for guys to receive all those cigars that are just going to be sitting in a warehouse somewhere for an indefinite amount of time.

[bigheadmark]

non compete clauses are fairly standard in many industries especially when their is a significant investment made by the company into an individual (as in this case)

:tu

[MarkinAZ]

Regarding the 5 year Non-Compete clause, I'm wondering:

Does the clause begin when Leccia started employment with Olivia in or around 2008 (ends in 2013), or when Leccia left the employment of Olivia in or around 2010 (ends in 2015)?

[jesseboston81]

Regarding the 5 year Non-Compete clause, I'm wondering:

Does the clause begin when Leccia started employment with Olivia in or around 2008 (ends in 2013), or when Leccia left the employment of Olivia in or around 2010 (ends in 2015)?



Assuming it's valid, it's the latter option: 2015.

[jesseboston81]

Typically NC's don't hold up too well in court. The last one I remember was an exec. leaving Microsoft for Google. MSFT tried to sue but got no where. I am not sure with the case of Sam though because it is very direct competition, also I would not be surprised if his new cigar was very similar to the Cain and NUB cigars he already made.

The fact that Oliva was able to get an injunction means that they were already able to persuade a judge that they have a good chance (legalese = "substantial likelihood") of succeeding in their overall suit to completely enforce the agreement. That's not a guarantee that Oliva will win, but it's a strong indicator.

Also, Sam's Debut line was directly matching up with, at least to some degree, Studio Tobac's NUB Plus plans: the announced Debut vitolas were 5x60, 7x60, and a 7x52 figurado.

[Emjaysmash]

Oliva put a lot of time and money into the creating, promoting and distributing the NuB and Cain line and had the foresight to make someone like Sam the face of it. It seems Sam thought he was going to able to immediately transfer the success given to him by Oliva to his own company. Apparently Oliva had different ideas and knew this when they put the non-compete clause in his contract. If he had left on good terms, would they allow him to compete immediately? :hm

Also remember that Sam was going to need another large cigar company to make, promote and distribute his new line. Again, Oliva probably doesn't want to allow him to transfer the image/success they created for him to another 'competitor' in the industry. Not knowing much about competition amongst the large companies, it may be to prevent him from helping another company or it may be out of spite based on the nature of the split from Oliva. :sh

This (https://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/notes/tora%C3%B1o-a-family-cigar-company/tora%C3%B1o-family-cigar-company-to-distribute-sam-leccia-cigars/219063781449633) was annouced a little while back. Looks like Torano Cigars was/is going to distribute Sam's new cigars.

[area51]

So did Sam actually create the blends for NUB and Cain lines?

[LostAbbott]

Also, Sam's Debut line was directly matching up with, at least to some degree, Studio Tobac's NUB Plus plans: the announced Debut vitolas were 5x60, 7x60, and a 7x52 figurado.

I am thinking this is where his problems lie. If his three sizes are the same as the nub plus sizes then Olivia would have a very good case.
Posted via Mobile Device

[gbum]

Wow... Thats bad... Hopefully they can settel it down in a good term...

[MarkinAZ]

Also, Sam's Debut line was directly matching up with, at least to some degree, Studio Tobac's NUB Plus plans: the announced Debut vitolas were 5x60, 7x60, and a 7x52 figurado.

I am thinking this is where his problems lie. If his three sizes are the same as the nub plus sizes then Olivia would have a very good case.Posted via Mobile Device

For negotiation purposes:

Maybe Leccia could offer up his entire inventory of the above sizes to Olivia, and agree to not create these size vitola' for the next 5 years. In exchange;

Olivia would be asked to drop their law suit/non-compete clause, and allow Leccia to continue forward with his line of cigars, but in different size vitola' other than the size vitola' in question.

Just a thought...

[loki]

there's a good way to do this and then there's the way that oliva did it. they could have let sam go to rtda and then settle this for a good portion of his profits for the next 4.5 years and then none of us would be having this discussion

[aaron72]

I knew something had to happen. I didn't see how he was going to just be able to come out with his own line without some sort of agreement with Oliva.

[chippewastud79]

So did Sam actually create the blends for NUB and Cain lines?

No.

[JJG]

i don't get a warm fuzzy feeling from anyone trying to stop someone else from making a living. when you're knowledge and experience is in one area, i don't see how you can limit a person from using that to provide for his family

As a completely objective observer who has never smoked or had any interest in this guy's cigars, I have to agree. Is Oliva truly concerned that Sam Leccia is going to put a dent in their bottom line?

On the other hand, NC clauses are standard for most employment contracts, but 5 years? That's crazy and he probably should not have agreed to it in the first place.

[chippewastud79]

Is Oliva truly concerned that Sam Leccia is going to put a dent in their bottom line?



Likely not. But remember, Oliva created NUB and Cain and to some extent the image of Sam and he likely didn't leave in an admirable way. It may be purely out of spite by Oliva for Sam thinking he was larger than life when he left. Its all speculation, but they likely wouldn't be trying to blackball him had he left under good terms. :hm

[area51]

This is crazy, I have a feeling it may hurt Oliva and help Sam

[chippewastud79]

This is crazy, I have a feeling it may hurt Oliva and help Sam

No. Particularly if Sam has to wait 5 years to work in the industry, by the time he can re-enter the market place the mood of the industry may have changed and not crave the 'rock-and-roll'/'bad boy image' that seems to be so popular of late.

Oliva is one of the most respected/consistent/affordable/well-made/highly rated cigars across the board and Studio Tabac seems to be just another step in the right direction for them. :2

[loki]

No.

yes

[Don Fernando]

yes

no

[neoflex]

Also, Sam's Debut line was directly matching up with, at least to some degree, Studio Tobac's NUB Plus plans: the announced Debut vitolas were 5x60, 7x60, and a 7x52 figurado.

At the same time it's not like these sizes are not becoming the norm among cigar manufacturers. As much as some us agree that they will never be our go to sizes these sized sticks do sell very well. I know at my local the larger RGs always sell out first.

[Doctorossi]

Also, Sam's Debut line was directly matching up with, at least to some degree, Studio Tobac's NUB Plus plans: the announced Debut vitolas were 5x60, 7x60, and a 7x52 figurado.

Nub Plus?!

:r :r :r

That's about the funniest idea I've heard since the original Nub!

"Look guys... this little chunk right here is the best part, so we're only going to give you that. Oh, and we're also going to give you all of this other part attached to it. You know, like all the other cigars have."

Which is it, Oliva? "Sweet spot" or not?

[gnukfu]

If the issue is a non-compete agreement/contract generally you have to show that there is a likelihood of irreparable harm/injury if the preliminary injunction is not granted.

If the case makes it to trial the judge reviews the agreement using a test typically developed under the case law of that state (common law). There are a number of factors that are considered. Geographic scope, length of time, norms within the industry, and public policy are some factors that are considered. It varies from state to state depending on how the case law developed within that state.

[LasciviousXXX]

The biggest positive I can see for Mr. Leccia is that the non-compete covenant could be considered unenforceable if the duration is ruled to be unreasonable or overly broad. And let's face it, 5 years as well as restrictions on a national level could be deemed an unreasonable restriction on Mr. Leccia's ability to earn a living. Logically, I could see the judge scraping the non-compete clause in this case.

[jesseboston81]

The biggest positive I can see for Mr. Leccia is that the non-compete covenant could be considered unenforceable if the duration is ruled to be unreasonable or overly broad. And let's face it, 5 years as well as restrictions on a national level could be deemed an unreasonable restriction on Mr. Leccia's ability to earn a living. Logically, I could see the judge scraping the non-compete clause in this case.

On a related issue, and this goes back to what George was saying about state common law, if this goes to trial and the five year duration is deemed too long, then it will come down to whether Florida's common law strikes the clause completely or whether it rewrites it to be enforceable. However, as with most cases, Sam and Oliva will likely reach an agreement and this won't ever make it to trial anyways.

[TheRiddick]

The biggest positive I can see for Mr. Leccia is that the non-compete covenant could be considered unenforceable if the duration is ruled to be unreasonable or overly broad. And let's face it, 5 years as well as restrictions on a national level could be deemed an unreasonable restriction on Mr. Leccia's ability to earn a living. Logically, I could see the judge scraping the non-compete clause in this case.

Non-compete is ALWAYS signed by BOTH parties. Since Leccia had no beef with the duration of the clause when he WILLINGLY signed it I can't imagine a judge now vacating it. If he signed the agreement in bad faith, as now it seems, then he should not be complaining. Besides, if there is a 5 year non-compete he DEFINITELY got a serious chunk of money up front, thus his ability "to make a living" is a dubious claim. Look up sales of Williams-Selyem and Kosta Brown wineries, just a couple of very visible examples, much longer non-compete clauses (10 years) and all enforceable without sellers claiming "duress".

[loki]

no

maybe?

[chippewastud79]

maybe?

No.

[LasciviousXXX]

Non-compete is ALWAYS signed by BOTH parties. Since Leccia had no beef with the duration of the clause when he WILLINGLY signed it I can't imagine a judge now vacating it. If he signed the agreement in bad faith, as now it seems, then he should not be complaining. Besides, if there is a 5 year non-compete he DEFINITELY got a serious chunk of money up front, thus his ability "to make a living" is a dubious claim. Look up sales of Williams-Selyem and Kosta Brown wineries, just a couple of very visible examples, much longer non-compete clauses (10 years) and all enforceable without sellers claiming "duress".


There are many cases of non-compete covenants being deemed unenforceable because of the unreasonable duration even though both parties signed the agreement. Most revolve around the issue of whether it unreasonably restricts the persons ability to make living. Many factors obviously come into focus on these types of cases, such as the range and scope of the restrictions, the type of work itself and whether a new venture would have a negative effect on the company if trade secrets were utilized. This is just to name a few. Not every NCC or CNC is open and shut simply for the fact that both parties signed the agreement. And seeing as how each one is different, the duration also doesn't definitely mean Leccia got a "chunk of money" up front. :2

[loki]

No.

definitely, i've been reading more than a few "i'll never buy another oliva cigar ever" posts. now is that internet dick swinging, maybe, but i'm sure that more than a few actually mean it. before this oliva was just another small cigar maker now, to some, they're the big bad corporation trying to stop a man from earning a living. There will be blowback from this and it's silly to think there won't be

[Sherlockholms]

Crazy stuff! I am curious as to how this is going to play out.

[chippewastud79]

definitely, i've been reading more than a few "i'll never buy another oliva cigar ever" posts. now is that internet dick swinging, maybe, but i'm sure that more than a few actually mean it. before this oliva was just another small cigar maker now, to some, they're the big bad corporation trying to stop a man from earning a living. There will be blowback from this and it's silly to think there won't be

Oliva isn't getting any less popular, they aren't turning out worse product and they certainly aren't on the decline. Will some people undoubtedly stay away from them over this? Maybe, but I doubt that the allegiance to Sam runs that deep. Would there be such an uproar if a sales rep for Oliva had left under bad terms and was trying to go to a different company?

If Sam has to take 5 years off, I have a feeling many will forget who he even is. He was never his own brand, but rather the face of Oliva's lines. Their marketing department chose wisely when they picked the 'rockstar' look and started the NUB Live tour (which was copied by other companies).

Will he see success from his 'own' brand (to be marketed by Torano)? That is yet to be seen, but undoubtedly he wants to capitalize on the momentum created for him by Oliva and the longer he has to wait the tougher it may be.

Again, if the split from Oliva had been amicable we might not be even discussing this. Something must have occured on one side or the other that the relationship between company and (ex-)employee must have been strained when he left/was asked to leave. :2

[loki]

Oliva isn't getting any less popular, they aren't turning out worse product and they certainly aren't on the decline. Will some people undoubtedly stay away from them over this? Maybe, but I doubt that the allegiance to Sam runs that deep. Would there be such an uproar if a sales rep for Oliva had left under bad terms and was trying to go to a different company?

If Sam has to take 5 years off, I have a feeling many will forget who he even is. He was never his own brand, but rather the face of Oliva's lines. Their marketing department chose wisely when they picked the 'rockstar' look and started the NUB Live tour (which was copied by other companies).

Will he see success from his 'own' brand (to be marketed by Torano)? That is yet to be seen, but undoubtedly he wants to capitalize on the momentum created for him by Oliva and the longer he has to wait the tougher it may be.

Again, if the split from Oliva had been amicable we might not be even discussing this. Something must have occured on one side or the other that the relationship between company and (ex-)employee must have been strained when he left/was asked to leave. :2
good, then we agree

[MarkinAZ]

definitely, i've been reading more than a few "i'll never buy another oliva cigar ever" posts. now is that internet dick swinging, maybe, but i'm sure that more than a few actually mean it. before this oliva was just another small cigar maker now, to some, they're the big bad corporation trying to stop a man from earning a living. There will be blowback from this and it's silly to think there won't be

I just wanted to make sure I didn't misread your post here Loki, but are you indicating that the Oliva Cigar Company is a small cigar maker?

[chippewastud79]

good, then we agree

I concur that some MAY stay away, but not nearly enough people to negatively effect Oliva in the short or long-term. :tu

[guado]

Although I understand the lawsuit and with the information I have Oliva is right to sue Sam, I think the timing is aweful and will not only hurt Sam but also Oliva as they are 'the bad guys' now in a lot of comments I read online.

A lot of those are nut swingers that thought sam was their friend. Sam hated being at shows hated being away from his family...and IMO smoked way to much pot.

People are delusional if they they Samn TRULY created nub and cain. He NEVER blended his OWN cigars. He just carried around blanks and wrapped cigars at events.

Did you ever try talking tobacco with him? LOL


I hope this is approved by the courts. All these "I will never smoke another oliva and wait it out for sam" people will forget about him in two years. I really hope Oliva puts out the TRUTH behind all this. I would LOVE to really hear/read what happened.


We all see the negative about this but in actuallity what percetage of cigar smokers are we online from the masses. People really think them not buying two oliva cigars at a show is gonna hurt Oliva. They make an awesome product and continue to innovate which is where a lot of brands are lacking.

Oh well...ending my rant. I think Sam's a douche. He knew what he signed...he has a bunch of twitter followers and facebook fans...so thats all that matters...lol.

I just feel bad for anyone who invested money in him...they should have known better.

[NCRadioMan]

The people on cigar boards are a very, very tiny percentage of cigar smokers. If you ask most smokers who are not on cigars boards who Sam is, they have no clue. Same could be said of Pete Johnson. And, they don't care. To think this will effect anyone's bottom line is silly.

Besides, people say alot things on these boards that are total bs and they like to posture to make themselves look important in their own mind.

Also, a company that produces over 13 million cigars a year is not a small cigar maker.

For me, if Sam would have come up with good blends in non-clown cigar sizes, I might have cared about this.

[Ranger_B]

Call me old fashioned but if you sign a contract that is your word. I hold no ill will for someone trying to make a living but if you said you would not compete for 5 years than you wait 5 years. Without knowing what the agreement is I would not hold anything against Oliva or Sam. Never liked the nubs anyway. Now the V and the new cain daytona thats a different story.

[loki]

I just wanted to make sure I didn't misread your post here Loki, but are you indicating that the Oliva Cigar Company is a small cigar maker?

that is exactly what i'm saying

[Don Fernando]

Nub Plus?!

:r :r :r

That's about the funniest idea I've heard since the original Nub!

"Look guys... this little chunk right here is the best part, so we're only going to give you that. Oh, and we're also going to give you all of this other part attached to it. You know, like all the other cigars have."

Which is it, Oliva? "Sweet spot" or not?

they exist, check http://www.cigar.com/cigars/viewcigar.asp?brand=997

[Brutus2600]

definitely, i've been reading more than a few "i'll never buy another oliva cigar ever" posts. now is that internet dick swinging, maybe, but i'm sure that more than a few actually mean it. before this oliva was just another small cigar maker now, to some, they're the big bad corporation trying to stop a man from earning a living. There will be blowback from this and it's silly to think there won't be

In which case those people are ridiculous...Oliva makes a great product and honestly they're just missing out if they want to boycott Oliva products. It won't hurt Oliva's bottom line. I'm betting the majority of cigar smokers don't even know about this whole debacle.

A lot of those are nut swingers that thought sam was their friend. Sam hated being at shows hated being away from his family...and IMO smoked way to much pot.

People are delusional if they they Samn TRULY created nub and cain. He NEVER blended his OWN cigars. He just carried around blanks and wrapped cigars at events.

Did you ever try talking tobacco with him? LOL


I hope this is approved by the courts. All these "I will never smoke another oliva and wait it out for sam" people will forget about him in two years. I really hope Oliva puts out the TRUTH behind all this. I would LOVE to really hear/read what happened.


We all see the negative about this but in actuallity what percetage of cigar smokers are we online from the masses. People really think them not buying two oliva cigars at a show is gonna hurt Oliva. They make an awesome product and continue to innovate which is where a lot of brands are lacking.

Oh well...ending my rant. I think Sam's a douche. He knew what he signed...he has a bunch of twitter followers and facebook fans...so thats all that matters...lol.

I just feel bad for anyone who invested money in him...they should have known better.

The more the curtain is ripped away the more you realize it's just a silly old man pretending to be the great and powerful Wizard of Oz :2

[chippewastud79]

that is exactly what i'm saying

No.

[loki]

No.

we're back to this again?

[chippewastud79]

we're back to this again?

I would hardly consider one of the 5 or 6 largest cigar distributors in America a "small company". :sh

[Da Klugs]

When emplyees playing front get....

http://www.shootingatbubbles.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/big-britches.jpg

And try and

http://img3.visualizeus.com/thumbs/10/04/05/bite,the,hand,that,feeds,cat,comic,drawing,ferocio us,illustration-60703588ea111b2b30a640d4ab73b644_m.jpg

through taking the notariety that the company paid to create and attempt to

http://u.goal.com/130000/130017hp2.jpg

Then

http://www.conversationmarketing.com/crystal-begs.png

Not only is the corporate support gone but you have to deal with the things you agreed to that made the company comfortable with pumping corporate dollars into promoting you as well as their cigars.

[Don Fernando]

we're back to this again?

yes






:D

[jledou]

My non-legal view on NCs -it mostly depends on the state, some already have president of not recognizing them legitimate claim by the company or not.
The injunction has no bearing on the final outcome as Oliva is able to show they have a document and the judge agreed so he orders the injunction ... he didn't rule on the validity of the document.

[wayner123]

Watch this video and pay close attention at the question asked around 7:30.

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v14156371YBenyrNZ?h1=CigarFest+2008+-+Jose+Oliva+%26+Sam+Leccia+Interview

[weak_link]

Between the distribution and farms, Oliva is a giant. This isn't going to hurt them a bit.

[NCRadioMan]

Between the distribution and farms, Oliva is a giant. This isn't going to hurt them a bit.

You may be confusing Oliva Cigar Co. and Oliva Tobacco Co. They are not the same.

[weak_link]

You may be confusing Oliva Cigar Co. and Oliva Tobacco Co. They are not the same.

You're correct I was, whoops!

I still don't think they are going to get hurt by this. :D

[Don Fernando]

You may be confusing Oliva Cigar Co. and Oliva Tobacco Co. They are not the same.

Oliva Cigar Co also has farms

[OLS]

My ininformed opinion on this might be a.) he knew that he had a no-compete and b.) he figured he could stretch it out
with press releases for 5 years kind of like Duke Nukem Forever, always promised, never delivered, then one day there it is.

But again, I have no idea. I DO know 5 years is a long time in the cigar biz and swallows much.

[Doctorossi]

he figured he could stretch it out
with press releases for 5 years kind of like Duke Nukem Forever, always promised, never delivered, then one day there it is.

Is it "competing" to tour the country for 5 years, handing out pre-production samples of a product that's not yet on shelves? :r

[rizzle]

The people on cigar boards are a very, very tiny percentage of cigar smokers. If you ask most smokers who are not on cigars boards who Sam is, they have no clue. Same could be said of Pete Johnson. And, they don't care. To think this will effect anyone's bottom line is silly.

Besides, people say alot things on these boards that are total bs and they like to posture to make themselves look important in their own mind.
Also, a company that produces over 13 million cigars a year is not a small cigar maker.

For me, if Sam would have come up with good blends in non-clown cigar sizes, I might have cared about this.

Say it isn't so, Greg? :r

[elderboy02]

Nice review.

[nofeardiver]

My opinion on it for all the Boycott oliva people out there, is your not in the middle of it, your not sam and your not the olivas and they are the only ones that know the truth and what is going on. First if i was to boycott oliva what kind of smoke would i be giving up 85-90% of my humidor is oliva products, yes i am oliva/nub/cain/st freak... i love their stuff. Second i have met Sam and i have met Bryan, they are both stand up guys.... But that being said i don't see Bryan or Olivas bashing Sam on there Facebook.... In fact when i asked Bryan about Sam leaving Bryan only had good things to say about Sam, this was like a month or two ago... I think the whole thing is flipping childish, if Sam has 5 year non compete, then that is what it is, he signed it, now man up and honor your word... that is my 2 cent rant...

[cmitch]

Non-competes are almost ALWAYS unenforceable. I work in the graphic arts industry where non-competes are a heavy industry standard and the contracts are usually nullified by a judge due to the many loopholes available. One example would be firing. Regardless if the termination was justified, the company attempting to enforce the non-compete had better be able to prove it was a good firing or the courts will throw it out in the streets. The REASON is: What would stop an employer from 'hiring' you, making you sign an agreement for 3 to 5 years, work you 90 days and fire you? This would prevent you from finding gainful employment in your profession while 'protecting' the former employer from your work being done for his competitor. It's these abuses that make non-competes stupid to sign and difficult to enforce.

[TheRiddick]

Non-competes are almost ALWAYS unenforceable. I work in the graphic arts industry where non-competes are a heavy industry standard and the contracts are usually nullified by a judge due to the many loopholes available. One example would be firing. Regardless if the termination was justified, the company attempting to enforce the non-compete had better be able to prove it was a good firing or the courts will throw it out in the streets. The REASON is: What would stop an employer from 'hiring' you, making you sign an agreement for 3 to 5 years, work you 90 days and fire you? This would prevent you from finding gainful employment in your profession while 'protecting' the former employer from your work being done for his competitor. It's these abuses that make non-competes stupid to sign and difficult to enforce.

Doesn't work like that in real world, bad example. Can you cite one such case?

Look up wine industry non-competes. So far, ALL OF THEM WERE and ARE ENFORCEABLE. In addition, I have yet to meet one winemaker who went back on his word, maybe its an industry thing, but agreements are ALL respected.

Like I said above, and AFAIK, any time a 5 YEAR non-compete is signed (a pretty lengthy time, I admit) there is serious monetary compensation involved one way or another (meaning during/prior to termination or thereafter), make no mistake about it. So, claiming "hardship" is pretty dubious.

Besides, you and some others keep mentioning "firing" as a way of Leccia/Oliva parting ways. Do you know this to be factual or simply guessing? If Leccia left on his own accord, then there is no court around to take his side. And from where I sit it does look like Leccia quit on his own accord and then decided to go the "American way", ie, stupid legal system where judges and juries have no common sense half the time and plaintiffs have nothing to loose by filing frivolous claims.

You don't see Ernesto Carrillo suing General after they paid him years ago to buy him out and he had to sit all this time on the sidelines due to non-compete he signed up front. That is a man of his word. And honor. To me. But it seems my values are skewed judging by some posts in the thread.

[Volusianator]

Boycott Oliva, ehhh, if you feel that's gonna help Sam, go ahead. Oliva makes some outstanding products that I will continue to purchase. Sam signed that non-compete when he took the job.

[shilala]

Yeah, I'm just gonna go ahead and keep not buying any Sam cigars. That's been working out great and no one seemed to notice. I think I'll keep buying myself some Oliva's from time to time, just like before, even.

I just read this whole thing, and it simply doesn't add up. For Sam to move ahead knowing there was a five year noncompete would be borderline retarded behavior.
The only thing I can come up with is that his stance is that he's in a completely different capacity in this new venture. That could be a decent argument, but he's clearly the pitch-man, which was his capacity at Oliva. Whether he's pitching at his own company or anyone else's, it's still the same thing. I suppose he can argue that it's only a small percentage of what he's doing and it comes with the entirely new job he's created?
I wasted way too many words on this. I feel dirty.

[Doctorossi]

The only thing I can come up with is that his stance is that he's in a completely different capacity in this new venture.

The thing is, none of us know what is or isn't in any agreements these parties have signed, so it's all just silly speculation.

[shilala]

The thing is, none of us know what is or isn't in any agreements these parties have signed, so it's all just silly speculation.
Agreed. I wasted way too many words. I wasn't busy, so nothing lost. :)

[Volusianator]

I wasted way too many words on this. I feel dirty.
ROFLMAO...well put!

[neoflex]

I think Oliva may have done something legally to get him to keep his mouth shut on the situation to keep the story from becoming too skewed especially with the show going on this week. I know when he first received the court order he was blasting Oliva on Facebook but has since not said a word except asking people if they knew where he could find a job. I would love to hear the whole story from both sides and see how the stories differ but signing a 5 year non compete and than deciding to try and launch his own brand shortly after parting ways is like pissing in the wind in my opinion. Again I would love to hear both sides from the horses mouth.

[nofeardiver]

Again I would love to hear both sides from the horses mouth.

me too

[icehog3]

Sam logged in here yesterday. ;)

[forgop]

Sam logged in here yesterday. ;)

He's not going to comment on specifics as virtually every severance will make them keep their mouths closed on any of these details or be subject to losing said funds.

[icehog3]

He's not going to comment on specifics as virtually every severance will make them keep their mouths closed on any of these details or be subject to losing said funds.

Absolutely...wasn't trying to be critical of Sam, just pointing out that I am guessing he is aware that we are discussing the issue.

[replicant_argent]

I am finding it hard to really give a damn. No offense to anyone, but why should I care? There are enough manufacturers and a plethora of cigars I haven't tried yet to keep me busy for a decade if I choose.

[cmitch]

Doesn't work like that in real world, bad example. Can you cite one such case?

Look up wine industry non-competes. So far, ALL OF THEM WERE and ARE ENFORCEABLE. In addition, I have yet to meet one winemaker who went back on his word, maybe its an industry thing, but agreements are ALL respected.
Are you speaking of 'Employment non-competes or BUYOUT non-competes?

Like I said above, and AFAIK, any time a 5 YEAR non-compete is signed (a pretty lengthy time, I admit) there is serious monetary compensation involved one way or another (meaning during/prior to termination or thereafter), make no mistake about it. So, claiming "hardship" is pretty dubious.
No such compensations have I seen in my field, nor in any field of a 'creative' nature. Is cigar blending creative? I guess it's a matter of opinion

Besides, you and some others keep mentioning "firing" as a way of Leccia/Oliva parting ways. Do you know this to be factual or simply guessing? If Leccia left on his own accord, then there is no court around to take his side. And from where I sit it does look like Leccia quit on his own accord and then decided to go the "American way", ie, stupid legal system where judges and juries have no common sense half the time and plaintiffs have nothing to loose by filing frivolous claims.
Where? I used that as an example, only. :confused:

You don't see Ernesto Carrillo suing General after they paid him years ago to buy him out and he had to sit all this time on the sidelines due to non-compete he signed up front. That is a man of his word. And honor. To me. But it seems my values are skewed judging by some posts in the thread.
Again, was this a pre-employment non-compete or a corporate buy-out non-compete? Buyout non competes are always enforceable, because it's an agreement between a previous owner/CEO and the new buyer to not go into the field of business that the company they sold conducted. A pre-employment non-compete is getting an employee to agree not to enter in a field in which they would compete with their former employer if they were to part ways. The reason why these are seldom enforceable is because there are too many ways an employee can part ways with his employer.

I am not saying that it's okay and moral for a former employee to violate a non-compete agreement. I'm just saying those kinds are rarely enforceable, especially if the former employee can prove there was no ground for his termination or had significant pressure to leave prematurely. Let's not blur the line on what is being discussed. I have no horse in this race, either way, Just adding an observation that's worth about :2

[forgop]

Are you speaking of 'Employment non-competes or BUYOUT non-competes?


No such compensations have I seen in my field, nor in any field of a 'creative' nature. Is cigar blending creative? I guess it's a matter of opinion


Where? I used that as an example, only. :confused:


Again, was this a pre-employment non-compete or a corporate buy-out non-compete? Buyout non competes are always enforceable, because it's an agreement between a previous owner/CEO and the new buyer to not go into the field of business that the company they sold conducted. A pre-employment non-compete is getting an employee to agree not to enter in a field in which they would compete with their former employer if they were to part ways. The reason why these are seldom enforceable is because there are too many ways an employee can part ways with his employer.

I am not saying that it's okay and moral for a former employee to violate a non-compete agreement. I'm just saying those kinds are rarely enforceable, especially if the former employee can prove there was no ground for his termination or had significant pressure to leave prematurely. Let's not blur the line on what is being discussed. I have no horse in this race, either way, Just adding an observation that's worth about :2

I'm having a hard time believing anyone would put together a 5 year pre-employment non-compete agreement. This smells of severance/buy-out non-compete to me.

[replicant_argent]

I'm having a hard time believing anyone would put together a 5 year pre-employment non-compete agreement. This smells of severance/buy-out non-compete to me.

It actually smells more like an iron-clad NUNYA contract disposition to me.

[ahc4353]

Agreed. I wasted way too many words. I wasn't busy, so nothing lost. :)


I beg to differ. One could make an argument that currently 5 pages of server space has been lost. :D

[chippewastud79]

I beg to differ. One could make an argument that currently 5 pages of server space has been lost. :D

Don't miss your coupon code with a minimum purchase. ;)

[drjammer]

Boycott Oliva, ehhh, if you feel that's gonna help Sam, go ahead. Oliva makes some outstanding products that I will continue to purchase. Sam signed that non-compete when he took the job.
:tu

[hscmit]

I am surprised this thread is still going

[nofeardiver]

I am surprised this thread is still going

Me too

[OLS]

This helps.

[OLS]

It actually smells more like an iron-clad NUNYA contract disposition to me.

Ehhhh-heheh ;)

[T.G]

100! http://www.letsgokings.com/bbs/images/smilies/dancing-smiley.gif

[rizzle]

I am finding it hard to really give a damn. No offense to anyone, but why should I care? There are enough manufacturers and a plethora of cigars I haven't tried yet to keep me busy for a decade if I choose.

:tu:tu