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ronzorelli
06-13-2011, 08:08 PM
Things are not always as they say they are. This is especially true in the case of foods that claim to be “Authentic NY” here in Texas (Just as the reverse is true in NY with foods claiming to be “Authentic Texas”). I’ve lived in Texas since August of 1998. In those 12 and a half years, I have yet to find one single “NY Bagel”. There have been a multitude of places over the years that have claimed to serve “NY Bagels”, and even some places CALLED by the name “NY Bagels”, but… they all LIE.

Liars. Every last one of them.

After jonesing for so long, I was ecstatic when I saw a recipe for bagels in a book from Peter Reinhart (http://peterreinhart.typepad.com/) I picked up a few weeks back and I knew I had to try it out. Peter is very well known in bread and pizza making circles. The guy knows a thing or two about bread-related items. The book is called “Artisan Breads Every Day (http://www.amazon.com/Peter-Reinharts-Artisan-Breads-Every/dp/1580089984/ref=pd_sim_b_1)“, and after reading it thus far, I highly recommend it.

I made the bagels last week and they looked beautiful. However, after they cooled, I thought they were good, but not “exactly” Authentic NY Bagels. The next day was a different story, though. After they had completely cooled and tightened up overnight, the crumb structure was exactly as I remembered it back home. They were gorgeous. They toasted perfectly and made me feel like I was sitting in my mom’s kitchen, scarfing down a bagel for breakfast before school. I knew I had to share them and the recipe with you.

Keep in mind that I tripled this recipe for my latest batch of bagels.

Here’s the recipe, and the detailed illustrated instructions afterward…



Dough Ingredients:

1 tablespoon (21 g) honey or barley malt syrup (honey is better)

1 teaspoon (3 g) instant yeast

2 1/2 teaspoons (10.5g) kosher salt (1 1/2 teaspoons table salt)

1 cup plus 2 tablespoons (255 g) lukewarm water (I used a mixture of beer and water – lukewarm, of course)

3 1/2 cups (454 g) unbleached bread flour



Brine (Poaching Liquid) Ingredients:

2-3 quarts (181-272 g) water

1 1/2 tablespoons (28.5 g)honey (I used both honey and molasses on my tripled recipe, and it came out great)

1 tablespoon (14 g) baking soda

1 1/2 teaspoon (7 g) kosher salt (1 tsp table salt)



Preparing ahead of time…

To make the dough, stir the honey, salt, and some of the yeast into the water (or water/beer mix). Put the entirety of the flour and the rest of the yeast into the mixer’s bowl. You can use the dough hook or the paddle on the mixer, but you’ll need to switch to the hook very quickly if you start with the paddle because the dough will get stiff quickly (I guess it’s male dough?). Set the mixer to the lowest speed, and let it run for 3 minutes. After 3 minutes, it should be fully hydrated and lumpy. Let it rest for 5 minutes.

After the 5 minute rest, put the mixer back on the lowest setting, with the dough hook installed. Let it go for another 3 minutes. After this, it’ll be silky and supple (now it’s female dough?), but firm. At this point, let it sit, covered at room temperature, for 1 hour in a lightly oiled bowl.

While it’s resting for that hour, get a sheet pan out and lightly oil it. When the dough is done resting, divvy it up into 4 ounce balls (113 g) and this particular recipe will give you about 6 dough balls. I used 4.5 ounce balls on my tripled recipe. If you make smaller balls, you’ll have more bagels (duh?!) but you’ll need another sheet pan. No more than 6 per sheet. Ok? Otherwise they’ll run into one another as they ferment and then proof.

When you’ve got your balls in a row, start to roll them out to about 7 inch length ropes, or so, and taper the ends. Form them into rings, and connect the tapered ends so the seam disappears (do your best). Place each newly formed bagel on the sheet pan, cover with some plastic wrap, and stick it in the fridge overnight. They can go up to two days in the fridge.

On the baking day…

Pull the bagels out of the fridge 60-90 minutes before you want to bake so they can proof to room temp. NOTE: you do not want these puppies to OVERPROOF. You will end up with small frisbees, not bagels. They will flatten if they overproof. Don’t let them do that.

Start the brine (poaching liquid) by mixing the ingredients together and get to boiling it. Once it boils, let it simmer. Now, set your oven to 500 degrees F.

Get a sheet pan covered with parchment paper, and lightly spray some cooking spray on the paper.

When you’re ready to bake, drop 3 bagels at a time, GENTLY into the poaching liquid. They should float within 15 seconds. Let them poach for 30-60 seconds, then flip them GENTLY. Let them poach for another 30-60 seconds. Pull them each out with a slotted spoon, let them drain in the spoon for a second or two, then place them DOME SIDE UP onto the parchment topped sheet pan. Repeat these steps for each batch of bagels.

Put the sheet into the oven and drop the temp to 450, and bake for 15-20 minutes – turning once during baking, until the bagels are golden brown, or slightly darker if you like that. During the bake, check the bottoms of the bagels, if they are getting too dark, insulate the sheet pan by putting a second pan under it.

Let them cool for about a half hour before slicing and enjoying.

Illustrated instructions can be found at this Link (http://steakchopsnhops.com/2011/03/14/bagels/)

madwilliamflint
12-08-2011, 10:14 AM
Nicely done!

Peter Reinhart is awesome. My favorite of his so far is "The Bread Baker's Apprentice". I learned more from that one work than I did with a couple years of fumbling around in the dark trying to teach myself to bake.

The sourdough potato scallion cheddar bread towards the end is a little "dog and pony" for me, but my god is it delicious.

Parshooter
12-08-2011, 11:35 AM
Things are not always as they say they are. This is especially true in the case of foods that claim to be “Authentic NY” here in Texas (Just as the reverse is true in NY with foods claiming to be “Authentic Texas”). I’ve lived in Texas since August of 1998. In those 12 and a half years, I have yet to find one single “NY Bagel”. There have been a multitude of places over the years that have claimed to serve “NY Bagels”, and even some places CALLED by the name “NY Bagels”, but… they all LIE.

Liars. Every last one of them.


ALL the experts say that New York bagels are different/better than all others because of the water. Plain old NY city tap water is the key. Without that water, all you have is New York "style" bagels.

madwilliamflint
12-08-2011, 11:40 AM
I promise you that's not true. I spent years getting my bagels down and learned a couple very important pieces of procedure that are simply in no recipe I've ever seen (even a couple not in the above recipe, which is as close as I've ever seen), but had been independently confirmed at bagel shops in Brooklyn.

It was in fact, such a PITA to get them down that when people ask me the secret I wave it off and say "it's the water."

I'm convinced this is why that piece of mythology exists. Same thing with pizza. It's easy to tell people and makes the tourists go away.

pnoon
12-08-2011, 11:45 AM
So you insist on perpetuating the myth?
:confused:

Why not share? I don't understand.
Posted via Mobile Device

madwilliamflint
12-08-2011, 11:59 AM
I work too hard on this stuff. Baking and confections mostly. Getting a particular "thing" down can take months if not years of experimentation and research. I'm just not coming out the other side of that and handing it over.

If it was something really important, like in machining, woodworking or programming techniques, I'd broadcast it far and wide. But an almost completely frivolous pursuit like this? There's not enough gained by it.

I'll share the product all day.

But the knowledge? You've gotta earn it.

Savor the Stick
12-08-2011, 12:16 PM
I reading this while eating a Jalapeno Cheese Bagel....My one and only true addiction. Yum with a little cream cheese to soften the burn......:dr

How would this recipe be upgraded to make those? Anyone?

madwilliamflint
12-08-2011, 12:21 PM
Depends on the kind of cheese. It's sorta amazing how thoroughly cheese blends in to a bread recipe. I'd suggest adding a cup of shredded cheddar and sliced jalapenos to taste.

The cheese itself doesn't really do much as far as changing the process of bread. I'm pretty sure you'll be safe.

I'd be inclined to suggest splitting it in half and doing half with and half plain (or two batches) just so you've minimized the number of variables. It sucks to get an awful result from what you think is "just one thing" you changed, but finding out after too much time that it's something else entirely.

Parshooter
12-08-2011, 12:28 PM
I'll share the product all day.

But the knowledge? You've gotta earn it.
Knowing Peter, he doesn't give a sht about the knowledge, he just wants free bagels :r

Savor the Stick
12-08-2011, 12:35 PM
Depends on the kind of cheese. It's sorta amazing how thoroughly cheese blends in to a bread recipe. I'd suggest adding a cup of shredded cheddar and sliced jalapenos to taste.

The cheese itself doesn't really do much as far as changing the process of bread. I'm pretty sure you'll be safe.

I'd be inclined to suggest splitting it in half and doing half with and half plain (or two batches) just so you've minimized the number of variables. It sucks to get an awful result from what you think is "just one thing" you changed, but finding out after too much time that it's something else entirely.

I was thinking of a little sharp cheddar with fresh peppers mixed into the dough. Then a little sprinkle of both on top before final baking.

pnoon
12-08-2011, 12:35 PM
Gee. I thought part of this community was to share knowledge. It is for the vast majority of us. Others not so much.
Posted via Mobile Device

CigarNut
12-08-2011, 01:33 PM
I work too hard on this stuff. Baking and confections mostly. Getting a particular "thing" down can take months if not years of experimentation and research. I'm just not coming out the other side of that and handing it over.

If it was something really important, like in machining, woodworking or programming techniques, I'd broadcast it far and wide. But an almost completely frivolous pursuit like this? There's not enough gained by it.

I'll share the product all day.

But the knowledge? You've gotta earn it.I've shared many "family" or "special" recipes on this site. Never figured that there was value in keeping something like this secret -- else how are others going to enjoy it?

T.G
12-08-2011, 01:49 PM
I've shared many "family" or "special" recipes on this site. Never figured that there was value in keeping something like this secret -- else how are others going to enjoy it?

You haven't EARNED the answer to that question yet, you lazy philistine! Maybe with months and decades worth of blood and sweat you will finally be worthy of that answer.

Maybe.

(short answer: it's in the water, now go away and bother me no more you bum.)

pnoon
12-08-2011, 01:54 PM
You forgot to mention that woodworking and programming info should be shared freely. No need to earn that.
Now, genuflect and kiss my ring.
Posted via Mobile Device

Dave128
12-08-2011, 02:01 PM
I work too hard on this stuff. Baking and confections mostly. Getting a particular "thing" down can take months if not years of experimentation and research. I'm just not coming out the other side of that and handing it over.

If it was something really important, like in machining, woodworking or programming techniques, I'd broadcast it far and wide. But an almost completely frivolous pursuit like this? There's not enough gained by it.

I'll share the product all day.

But the knowledge? You've gotta earn it.

Then, with the Brotherhood and unselfish amounts of sharing that is in abundance around this place, why burst a guys bubble and even mention that you have "the secret recipe" if you're not willing to share?

pektel
12-08-2011, 02:05 PM
I work too hard on this stuff.

I agree.

Earned? FFS, it's just a damn BAGEL.

Maybe I'm missing something :sh

bvilchez
12-08-2011, 02:11 PM
I agree.

Earned? FFS, it's just a damn BAGEL.

Maybe I'm missing something :sh

yup....the recipe for a bagel

pektel
12-08-2011, 02:18 PM
yup....the super secret ancient recipe for a bagel

fixed.

CigarNut
12-08-2011, 03:01 PM
You haven't EARNED the answer to that question yet, you lazy philistine! Maybe with months and decades worth of blood and sweat you will finally be worthy of that answer.

Maybe.

(short answer: it's in the water, now go away and bother me no more you bum.)
OK. Just for that I am going to make you some bagels (using my FIL's not-so-secret recipe).... Now, where is that ExLax...

bobarian
12-08-2011, 04:15 PM
Someone seems to hava proverbial stick up their a$$! Its a fricking recipe not biochemical warfare! :sh

bvilchez
12-08-2011, 04:18 PM
Someone seems to hava proverbial stick up their a$$! Its a fricking recipe not biochemical warfare! :sh

Peter can give you the recipe for that one:pn

bobarian
12-08-2011, 04:21 PM
Peter can give you the recipe for that one:pn

:hy

T.G
12-08-2011, 04:34 PM
OK. Just for that I am going to make you some bagels (using my FIL's not-so-secret recipe).... Now, where is that ExLax...


Ahhhh, the infamous it's the "Mexican water bagel"....

GreekGodX
12-08-2011, 04:43 PM
You forgot to mention that woodworking and programming info should be shared freely. No need to earn that.
Now, genuflect and kiss my ring.

Yes my Lord

Sheesh you would think that guy with all the bagel secrets was making millions of dollars from them. What a good way to give yourself a scarlet letter.

icehog3
12-08-2011, 04:55 PM
MMM...wonder if someone has earned the privilige to be a member of the Asylum.

NCRadioMan
12-08-2011, 05:20 PM
MMM...wonder if someone has earned the privilige to be a member of the Asylum.

No kiddin'! There are many hundreds of years of combined cigar experience and knowledge in the Asylum and from what I have seen, and experienced first-hand, it is freely and even eagerly given without gain and fanfare. That's what being a botl is all about and that can apply to all aspects of life

*sigh* Ces't la vie!

Look at it this way, you go to a herf and you sitting with a few people and somebody comes over and starts handing out cigars but passes you by. You wonder why and eventually you get wind that he didn't think you "earned" it yet. Now, wouldn't that be a major d*ck move? I think so. (fwiw, I've seen this happen and it sickened me.)

pektel
12-08-2011, 05:22 PM
I've figured it out! The dough must be rolled on thighs of virgins.
Posted via Mobile Device

GreekGodX
12-08-2011, 07:12 PM
No kiddin'! There are many hundreds of years of combined cigar experience and knowledge in the Asylum and from what I have seen, and experienced first-hand, it is freely and even eagerly given without gain and fanfare. That's what being a botl is all about and that can apply to all aspects of life

*sigh* Ces't la vie!

Look at it this way, you go to a herf and you sitting with a few people and somebody comes over and starts handing out cigars but passes you by. You wonder why and eventually you get wind that he didn't think you "earned" it yet. Now, wouldn't that be a major d*ck move? I think so. (fwiw, I've seen this happen and it sickened me.)

Bingo! That is the perfect perfect analogy and in your case story.

replicant_argent
12-08-2011, 08:09 PM
I've figured it out! The dough must be rolled on thighs of virgins.
Posted via Mobile Device

Nope, actually it appears the poaching liquid contains just a wee dram of Summers Eve.
That, is the secret ingredient.

Parshooter
12-09-2011, 07:25 AM
MMM...wonder if someone has earned the privilige to be a member of the Asylum.

I guess Col. Sanders isn't getting in here ? :r

ronzorelli
12-29-2011, 06:56 PM
I promise you that's not true. I spent years getting my bagels down and learned a couple very important pieces of procedure that are simply in no recipe I've ever seen (even a couple not in the above recipe, which is as close as I've ever seen), but had been independently confirmed at bagel shops in Brooklyn.

It was in fact, such a PITA to get them down that when people ask me the secret I wave it off and say "it's the water."

I'm convinced this is why that piece of mythology exists. Same thing with pizza. It's easy to tell people and makes the tourists go away.

As an amateur pizza maker who has been refining my technique at home (while talking to experts face to face and through e-mail/forums) for over 6 years, I would agree with you on this one.


These weren't "perfect" Bagels, but they were damn good and a whole lot better than the crap I can get down here in Central Texas.

And Reinhart is a good resource for anything bread related, but like most people who are still perfecting their craft, he's also still learning and may not always have everything exactly right.

That's the thing with following a craft you love... you never actually perfect it. It's the journey that brings the enjoyment.

madwilliamflint
12-29-2011, 06:59 PM
Good Lord. If I ever thought I was a "good enough" bread baker I don't know what the heck I'd do with myself.

It's one of the bright sides of unemployment. I'm baking a loaf or two a day, honing in on a baseline from which I can REALLY experiment :)

ronzorelli
12-29-2011, 07:00 PM
And I'll share my experience (or lack thereof) with anyone willing to listen...

ronzorelli
12-29-2011, 07:05 PM
Good Lord. If I ever thought I was a "good enough" bread baker I don't know what the heck I'd do with myself.

It's one of the bright sides of unemployment. I'm baking a loaf or two a day, honing in on a baseline from which I can REALLY experiment :)

I resembled that remark for over a year... I feel your pain, bro. ;s


Did a lot of "experimenting" with stuff to keep myself from going rabidly insane.

Good luck!

ronzorelli
12-29-2011, 07:06 PM
Oh, and madwilliamflint, I'm from Orange County, NY, originally. My sister lives in Walden and I grew up in Maybrook.

pnoon
12-30-2011, 01:05 AM
And I'll share my experience (or lack thereof) with anyone willing to listen...

Just be sure that whoever you share it with has earned it. :rolleyes:

GreekGodX
01-05-2012, 02:52 PM
I had a bagel today, made me think of this thread. madwilliamflint can I have the recipe and the secrets yet? :)

madwilliamflint
01-05-2012, 02:54 PM
I had a bagel today, made me think of this thread. madwilliamflint can I have the recipe and the secrets yet? :)

Depends.

Are you the one who modeled for Parshooter's avatar?

:noon

mosesbotbol
01-05-2012, 03:15 PM
It's all about the water and possibly air born yeast. Just like NY Pizza never tastes the same outside of NY.

sevans105
01-06-2012, 03:27 AM
I LOVE cigars.....and I LOVE the info, insight and most of all the brother/sister hood I've felt since joining Cigar Asylum. But blunt honest, this bagel thread is my very favorite. Soooooooo funny!

floydpink
01-06-2012, 09:22 PM
I grew up with my grandmother coming to visit us at the shore from North Jersey every Sunday with bagels and smoked whitefish.

Since leaving the Northeast a couple decades ago, I have just about given up on bagels, but did find this article about one of the best bagel places in NYC and wanted to share it, and you don't even have to earn it.:tu


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2011/06/why_is_it_so_hard_to_get_a_good_bagel_outside_of_n ew_york_city.html