Bulging Discs in back?

[BeerAdvocate]

After a month of being in pain, I had an MRI today and found out that I have not one but two Bulging Disc's in my very lower back.
Im in so much pain that Percocet & beer wont even cure it. So I am getting an injection on Monday to get me through until I can see a Nero-Surgeon on June 8. Has any here ever had a surgery for a bulging disc in their back?
What can I expect?

[Remo]

I've got a a bad back also, going on about 3 yrs. now, I have had x rays but they can't find anything, maybe an MRI is in order for me also, I hope you can get yours fixed up, good luck.

[BeerAdvocate]

I had an Xray 1st and it showed nothing. It took an MRI for them to diagnose me.

[Trkdrvremt]

No personal experience with bulging discs but from what heard you will always have some kind of pain. Even after any surgery you will continue to have back problems. I guess it just a matter of how well the surgery goes...

Good luck and I hope it works out for you....

[Remo]

Good info. I may need one, thanks.

[MTB996]

After a month of being in pain, I had an MRI today and found out that I have not one but two Bulging Disc's in my very lower back.
Im in so much pain that Percocet & beer wont even cure it. So I am getting an injection on Monday to get me through until I can see a Nero-Surgeon on June 8. Has any here ever had a surgery for a bulging disc in their back?
What can I expect?

To feel a million times better after surgery. If you're like me.

For many months, I couldn't sit and couldn't bend over enough to touch my knees. Immediately after surgery I could touch my toes, no problem. recovery wasn't too bad, just listen to the Dr and don't overdue it.

Now, 6 yrs later, all I need to do is stay in shape (if I don't walk or exercise my back will get sore) and I can do anything without any issues. I really wish I would have gotten surgery earlier.

I can tell you I met with many Dr's and settled on a Neurosurgeon to have the procedure, as the others I met with I didn't like (especially the orthopedic surgeons - they were a-holes).

Good luck, find a good Dr, listen to him/her and you'll be great.
-Mike

[MTB996]

No personal experience with bulging discs but from what heard you will always have some kind of pain. Even after any surgery you will continue to have back problems. I guess it just a matter of how well the surgery goes...

Good luck and I hope it works out for you....

Not for me. The only time my back is sore is if I don't do any exercise for a month or so. Then I am more prone to get a sore back, but frankly I deserve it for being lazy!

My surgery was to cut off a severely ruptured, bulging disc, but I did not need fusing or artificial attaching of vertebrae. Dr. said don't lift a fridge by myself, stay in shape (at least walk every day) and do whatever else I need to. Been working.

[Commander Quan]

I know exactly how you feel, the disks between L4,L5 and L5,S1 like to bulge out occasionally, the last time it took me 6 months before I broke down and went to the doctor, at that point I could barely put a sock on or drive my car because it hut so much to push in the clutch. After a prednisone pack I was pretty good but it still took 9 months of doing back bends on the floor before they were back to feeling good again.

[TheTraveler]

Take your MRI to a reputable chiropractor. There's another option available that's non-invasive. I can't remember the name of the machine or treatment method but basically they strap you to a table that stretches you out. You're muscles will be stretched, the disks will be allowed to slip back into place, you'll spend about $2,000 to $3,000, and in less than two months you'll be feeling great. After that just stay in shape and be smart when you lift things.

Anyway, wouldn't hurt to get an opinion. That's my two cents.

And I sincerely hope whatever option you choose your pain abates soon! :tu

[bobarian]

While anecdotal references are sometimes helpful, this is a question you should ask your doctor. If you are not happy with his answers seek out a second opinion. :sh

[marge796]

I hope you feel better, Travis.


Chris.....

[Blueface]

While anecdotal references are sometimes helpful, this is a question you should ask your doctor. If you are not happy with his answers seek out a second opinion. :sh

Totally agree.
first and foremost, thanks to MRI's, they can now tell 2/3's of the world has bulging discs.
A bulging disc is not a herniated disc.
A herniated disc does not necessarily cause impingement, more known as radiculopathy.

I have two full blown herniations, with impingement, at L4-L5, L5-S1.
The L4-L5 is where half the world suffers from it.
Cervical is where the other half does.

I have been like this for 23 years.
I have good years and bad ones.
Thanks to acupuncture, I have had two great years so far.

Like a great doctor and family friend once told me an I have followed.......when you find yourself in the fetal position for a month and can't move due to pain and being drugged, consider surgery. Until then, live like 2/3's of the world with pain or find an auto accident to enrich you or let my fraud opration get you.:D

[Blueface]

P.s.
Best cure.........lose weight.
Exercise.
Do leg raises and other exercise to strengthen back.

Most folks I know post surgery are not much better than before.

I was going to see the most reknowned surgeon in South Florida. Then I learned he operated Derrick Thomas, of the KC Chiefs who I believe is no longer on Earth due to complications post surgery to repair his back.
He was operated by this same famous surgeon.

[Kreth]

Take your MRI to a reputable chiropractor. There's another option available that's non-invasive. I can't remember the name of the machine or treatment method but basically they strap you to a table that stretches you out. You're muscles will be stretched, the disks will be allowed to slip back into place, you'll spend about $2,000 to $3,000...
Healthcare costs are ridiculous. Three grand to get strapped into a device made famous during the Spanish Inquisition. :rolleyes:
Posted via Mobile Device

[longknocker]

After a month of being in pain, I had an MRI today and found out that I have not one but two Bulging Disc's in my very lower back.
Im in so much pain that Percocet & beer wont even cure it. So I am getting an injection on Monday to get me through until I can see a Nero-Surgeon on June 8. Has any here ever had a surgery for a bulging disc in their back?
What can I expect?

Have 2 Ruptured Discs @ L4-5 & L5-S1. Had 2 Epidurals 2 Weeks Apart & I'm Fine, Now, After 3 Years With No Surgery. Try The Conservative Approach First.

[Chainsaw13]

Last year I was diagnosed with 3 herniated discs in my neck. 6 weeks of physical therapy and a bit more on my own after, I"m doing great. Like nothing even happened. Like Greg says, try the conservative approach first. Surgery should be the last option.

[TBone]

After 15 years of dealing with 2 herniated discs I couldn't stand to long, tie my shoes and picking anything up was out of the question. Your Dr. may say they can fix you but I'd try the acupuncture and physical therapy before the surgery option. I had my first surgery in May 02 to repair the discs in Sept 03 I had to have them go back in and repair the repair and take out scar tissue and in Sept 06 I had a fusion and cage put in. I am now in a position where I have so much scar tissue that has crept into the sciatic canal that no surgeon will touch me for fair of causing paralysis. Do all you can before taking the surgery...IMHO... I wish you well my friend

[Bunker]

I am at the other and as of April 6 I am now fused from C5 - C7. All I can offer is a warning on the percocets.

They are like a gift from an angel when you furst start taking them and then 3 days later your dried up like a cold lava flow. Get som Senna tablets or some kind of stool softener and take them every day. If you think the pain is bad now imagine it x10 as you are stuck on the can and things aren't working as they should be.

[14holestogie]

There is no stock answer, as everyone's condition is different. I do know I've seen enough people after surgery that either didn't improve or actually got worse that surgery would be the last resort for me. :2

Chiropractor and exercising have worked for me.

[Blueface]

Many great responses to avoid surgery as I have practiced.

My biggest warning here is that no good doctor will recommend surgery for bulging discs. NONE.
Whoever does, run like hell.
2/3 of the world is walking around with bulging discs and always has.
It is natural as part of gravity and weight.

Herniations? Totally different discussion, specially when there is a rupture or impingement as I have previously stated.

[mash]

Totally agree.
first and foremost, thanks to MRI's, they can now tell 2/3's of the world has bulging discs.
A bulging disc is not a herniated disc.
A herniated disc does not necessarily cause impingement, more known as radiculopathy.

I have two full blown herniations, with impingement, at L4-L5, L5-S1.
The L4-L5 is where half the world suffers from it.
Cervical is where the other half does.

I have been like this for 23 years.
I have good years and bad ones.
Thanks to acupuncture, I have had two great years so far.

Like a great doctor and family friend once told me an I have followed.......when you find yourself in the fetal position for a month and can't move due to pain and being drugged, consider surgery. Until then, live like 2/3's of the world with pain or find an auto accident to enrich you or let my fraud opration get you.:D

The point about MRI's is right. If you're over 40 years old, you have a good chance of having back pain and degenerative disc disease on MRi. Whether the MRI changes are the cause of your pain is not always clear.
The indication for surgery is nerve compression with either alteration in bowel/bladder function (surgery needs to be done urgently), or nerve compression with leg pain and motor signs (muscle weakness) that doesn't respond to non-surgical treatment. Surgery will not reliably lessen your back pain but it may help your leg symptoms. If you look at patients 3-4 years post surgery they look about the same as those that haven't had surgery, the pay off is the first couple of years post surgery.
I would be careful about the comparison to Derrick Thomas. He died because he had a spinal cord injury and was totally immobilized, he had a fatal blood clot in his lung. This likely had nothing to do with who operated on him.

[drjammer]

Have 2 Ruptured Discs @ L4-5 & L5-S1. Had 2 Epidurals 2 Weeks Apart & I'm Fine, Now, After 3 Years With No Surgery. Try The Conservative Approach First.

:tu

[Skywalker]

Sorry to hear, Travis!

I hope you find relief!

[BeerAdvocate]

P.s.
Best cure.........lose weight.
Exercise.
Do leg raises and other exercise to strengthen back.

Most folks I know post surgery are not much better than before.

I was going to see the most reknowned surgeon in South Florida. Then I learned he operated Derrick Thomas, of the KC Chiefs who I believe is no longer on Earth due to complications post surgery to repair his back.
He was operated by this same famous surgeon.

DT died in a car crash. It had nothing to do with back surgery.
The bulging disc's in my back pinch a nerve that runs down my right leg and into my foot, so I have the joy of feeling pain whenever I step.
I have looked into De.compression therapy (where they put you on a bed and stretch you) but I have heard that it doesnt solve the problem long term

[Blueface]

DT died in a car crash. It had nothing to do with back surgery.
The bulging disc's in my back pinch a nerve that runs down my right leg and into my foot, so I have the joy of feeling pain whenever I step.
I have looked into De.compression therapy (where they put you on a bed and stretch you) but I have heard that it doesnt solve the problem long term

Bulging discs don't impinge.
That is more a herniation.
I at times have felt like cutting my legs off from the impingement so I assure you I know the feeling well.

I bet the house that in most cases, nothing helps to eliminate back problems completely. You can only help relieve it.
Best long term resolution is to lose weight and strengthen the back.
Research it. You will see surgery is not the long term answer.

DT died from a blod clot from complication as result of surgery as result of a car accident while attempting to assist in resolving his paralysis.
That surgery was performed by one of the best neurosurgeons in the nation.
While his was much more extreme, the point is back surgery is serious chit, only to be considered in extreme circumstances.
Thanks to epidural blocks for years, Meds, acupuncture and exercise, no surgery for me and I assure you I have had times I could not even dress myself, or get out of bed.
I still enjoy what I would call a normal life, with some occasional discomfort.

[forgop]

The indication for surgery is nerve compression with either alteration in bowel/bladder function (surgery needs to be done urgently), or nerve compression with leg pain and motor signs (muscle weakness) that doesn't respond to non-surgical treatment. Surgery will not reliably lessen your back pain but it may help your leg symptoms. If you look at patients 3-4 years post surgery they look about the same as those that haven't had surgery, the pay off is the first couple of years post surgery.


I had 2 such surgeries last year. For a number of years, I had experienced some numbness/tingling in my legs and thought nothing of it as I attributed it to being overweight. I had small children and they'd step on my back to help pop it at times and if they stepped on it, it would send a sharp pain down my legs.

In Sept. 2009, I was going through a lot of stress and had a lot of tension/pain in my neck and upper back-it was to the point that I couldn't move. I went in for an MRI and they never found the source of that issue, but revealed the source of my numbness/tingling in my legs. The canal (aka vertebral foramen) my spine passes through is quite narrow compared to most people and I had bone spurs (between T10-T12) protruding into my spine and was effectively causing the numbness/tingling issue.

The first surgery was quite successful-for 2-3 months anyway. After that time, the numbness returned to my left leg from my knee down. I then had another follow up last December in which the neurosurgeon opened up some more room around my spine. It didn't seem to stop the feeling I went in for, but I at least have a little more room.

The #1 thing recommended to me by my surgeon is taking off weight to relieve the additional pressure off my spine. That's one of the best cures for a bad back.

[replicant_argent]

"Moderate L5-S1 disc degeneration with a dorasal annular fissure, chronic L5 spondylolysis and 5 mm spondylolisthesis.
5mm AP and SI cephatically extruded right foraminal herniation at L5-S1 narrowing the neural foramen and abutting the right L5 nerve root and ganglion."


In other words... yep. Looking at my solution currently as well. Pain I can deal with (ibu, Vitamin V, rum and beer, anyone?), but the movement back and forth concerns me more, because I don't want to slip on some ice and be called "Wheels" for the wrong reason for the rest of my life.

[Blueface]

I would be careful about the comparison to Derrick Thomas. He died because he had a spinal cord injury and was totally immobilized, he had a fatal blood clot in his lung. This likely had nothing to do with who operated on him.

Call it what you want.
My understanding is it was a post op complication.
My point is it was a surgery done by one of the best in the country in dealing with paralysis and he died.
Point being surgery is serious chit and for me personally, I am proof one can have a relatively normal life with two herniations and impingement and no surgery.
Point also is any good doctor will do all conservative treatment possible for common bulges and not immediately recommend or concur with what is always the danger of invasive surgery, particularly to the spine, housing such intricate nerves.
Surgery on the back is the option of very last resort. Bulges can and do improve. As I have said, weight is key and very often overlooked and ignored as a cause and cure.

[Blueface]

Derrick Thomas

Post op blod clot as was being moved from bed to wheelchair.

Read the part where Dr. Barth Green (whom I was going to be operated by) talks about the successes and failures of surgeries.
It starts with "we do a great........."

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/10/sports/pro-football-autopsy-shows-chiefs-thomas-died-of-a-blood-clot.html?ref=derrickthomas

[smelvis]

I have three compressed degenerating herniated disks, I am still working extremely light duty and fewer and fewer hours. The pain is simply unbearable and without pain pills movement would be just about impossible.

Waiting for L & I to approve an occupational disease claim and did two epidurals with no help at all. Doc say surgery is all that's left to try. Work is two faced and tells me one thing and L & I another. worked for this company 19 years and continue still. You are family and we care only goes when you are a benefit to them when you start to cost them money things change. I am very disappointed and have hired an attorney.

You all saying the pain will continue even with surgery scares the crap outta me and I already am scared to death of surgery as it is. damn it. :sh

[shilala]

I broke my lower back in an accident, had 4 screws and 2 rods installed, bone taken from my upper pelvis and used to fuse my sacrum to my pelvis, and a (multiple locale) laminectomy (bone removed from discs to make room for nerves to pass through unimpeded) done. I also have two discs blown out right below my shoulder blades. I have big leaky goomers called "Schmorl's Nodes" in a number of places, and I also have a couple endplate fractures.

My surgery helped a lot. I went from tears to hurts a lot all the time. I didn't have any expectations because I did my reading, furiously studied how backs work, surgical procedures, everything I could possibly learn and more.

All I can suggest is to listen to the docs, do your part and bust your ass to excercise and get the muscular support corrected, and try like hell NOT to ever have surgery.
Once you've crossed that bridge, you never come back.
In my case, the pain is lessened, but there are tons of things I can't do, my range of motion is shot, some days the pain is unbearable, and it's an ever-present problem that needs constant care. I literally live my live around my back, and it sucks.
Once again, it's better than it was, but the way it was, I was ready for a bullet. I insisted on every conservative measure possible for 7 months, and when I finally couldn't take another day, I was taken to surgery a couple of days after I agreed. They'd have taken me immediately, but I had to go through all the surgical preliminaries.

I wish I could pray you well, and I'll do my best, but you really have to work your ass off to try to avoid surgery. It hurts like hell every minute of every day and there's not enough drugs to kill the pain. You may be one of the lucky ones who can avoid surgery. If you can, you've done yourself a great justice, I promise. :tu

[Blueface]

I have three compressed degenerating herniated disks, I am still working extremely light duty and fewer and fewer hours. The pain is simply unbearable and without pain pills movement would be just about impossible.

Waiting for L & I to approve an occupational disease claim and did two epidurals with no help at all. Doc say surgery is all that's left to try. Work is two faced and tells me one thing and L & I another. worked for this company 19 years and continue still. You are family and we care only goes when you are a benefit to them when you start to cost them money things change. I am very disappointed and have hired an attorney.

You all saying the pain will continue even with surgery scares the crap outta me and I already am scared to death of surgery as it is. damn it. :sh

Two epidurals?
I went three years doing multiple level epidurals (two and three levels at a time) every four to six months.
First epidural worked for six years.
After that, they didnt take all the way but I stayed with it and last one worked for about four years.
Last time, did acupuncture, which I would have previously considered quack stuff, and man did it work.
I have been good for about nearly two years now. May be a bit less than that but I do it all, with some occasional discomfort.

Here is what I truly, truly believe helped me.
Not drugs.
Not epidurals.
Not therapy which I did lots of.

Instead, two things.
Lost gut and got a Temparpedic mattress.
Every time I gain five pounds, I have to immediately lose it and so goes away the back ailments that arise.

[mash]

Call it what you want.
My understanding is it was a post op complication.
My point is it was a surgery done by one of the best in the country in dealing with paralysis and he died.
Point being surgery is serious chit and for me personally, I am proof one can have a relatively normal life with two herniations and impingement and no surgery.
Point also is any good doctor will do all conservative treatment possible for common bulges and not immediately recommend or concur with what is always the danger of invasive surgery, particularly to the spine, housing such intricate nerves.
Surgery on the back is the option of very last resort. Bulges can and do improve. As I have said, weight is key and very often overlooked and ignored as a cause and cure.

Agreed, surgery is the last resort.
I am a doctor with Worker's Compensation, and my brother is a rehab medicine doc. Both of us see back surgery failures.
My point about Derrick Thomas is this- to highlight what happened to him as a risk of back surgery is not applicable to someone who isn't immoblized. That is the biggest risk factor for pulmonary embolism.
If I cross a street, I may get hit by a car. The chances of that happening are different if I cross a side street compared to a freeway. So, to use his case as an argument about why someone shouldn't have back surgery needs to be put into context.

[smelvis]

Two epidurals?
I went three years doing multiple level epidurals (two and three levels at a time) every four to six months.
First epidural worked for six years.
After that, they didnt take all the way but I stayed with it and last one worked for about four years.
Last time, did acupuncture, which I would have previously considered quack stuff, and man did it work.
I have been good for about nearly two years now. May be a bit less than that but I do it all, with some occasional discomfort.

Here is what I truly, truly believe helped me.
Not drugs.
Not epidurals.
Not therapy which I did lots of.

Instead, two things.
Lost gut and got a Temparpedic mattress.
Every time I gain five pounds, I have to immediately lose it and so goes away the back ailments that arise.


Lost the weight already, 50 pounds, the epidurals the doc say's ruled out muscular and left me with disk, bone on bone and some nerve problems which causes the right leg pain. They gave me no relief at all none nada zip! Never had a back problem in my whole life then had right knee surgery and right into this back stuff. I am a tough guy worked with broken ribs all the usual stuff. I tell ya though this back has me in tears. I can't imagine no medicine, I tried it a couple day's a few times and I just couldn't move. Takes me a couple hours to loosen up to get ready for work I can't do any stretching or anything without the pain meds.

I am basically just supervisory right now and still little things like washing the truck at a car wash can knock me out of the game for day's. I get worse throughout the week and use weekends to recovers and that is doing almost no physical activity at all. walking forget it twice around the block and I'm on the couch for day's.

Meds may be bad but I'll take them over pain so bad I am in tears. :sh

Thanks

PS
Sorry for thread jack but please anyone post your stuff it all helps us. You the Doc can you please speak more. Thanks Dave

[Blueface]

Agreed, surgery is the last resort.
I am a doctor with Worker's Compensation, and my brother is a rehab medicine doc. Both of us see back surgery failures.
My point about Derrick Thomas is this- to highlight what happened to him as a risk of back surgery is not applicable to someone who isn't immoblized. That is the biggest risk factor for pulmonary embolism.
If I cross a street, I may get hit by a car. The chances of that happening are different if I cross a side street compared to a freeway. So, to use his case as an argument about why someone shouldn't have back surgery needs to be put into context.

Well, let's see.
A doctor I am not but let's determine how bad my Derrick Thomas example truly is.

He died of a blood clot, post operative.

As a doctor, please clarify for me.
Is there a potential risk for terminal blood clots post surgeries?
Is this potential recently being determined to be more pervasive than previously thought?

I believe you will have to agree there is.

If there is, and Derrick Thomas got one post surgery to attempt to repair his post traumatic paralysis, how is my analogy so far off?

[Blueface]

What irony
I post about pervassiveness of post op blood clots and death and just ran across this.
http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/b241507_Family_Mia_Amber_Davis_Died_From_Blood_Clo t.html

Dead from blood clot 24 hours post knee surgery.
Folks may remember her from that Tom Greene movie Road Trip.

Again, point is just to avoid surgery at all cost, until all else fails.
1) it may not cure you
2) it may kill you
3) it may kill you before it ever cures you
;)

[shilala]

A word on epidurals...
I had two. The first one was in a top notch facility. It was a powdered cortisone injection (I should say injections because they worked both sides of my spine in about 20 or 30 spots and also loaded my spinal cord). Despite all the damage, it really did help a LOT. Iirc, it took about 5 days to kick in, then lasted about five weeks.
The second one was done at the hospital by the house, under old xray machines, and they had me sweating so bad they had to bring someone in to mop the floor. They constantly stopped the procedure because my blood pressure was bottoming out. When they were done, I couldn't walk and they hauled my ass to the ER, stuck a bunch of needles in me and gave me tons of muscle relaxers to break the grip.
That was my last "conservative measure". It was excruciating. My doc and my surgeon called me the next day and I agreed to surgery.

Point being, they work wonders if done properly by good doctors in good facilities. I'd not hesitate to have one done again if I thought for a minute it'd be any help.

[Blueface]

A word on epidurals...
I had two. The first one was in a top notch facility. It was a powdered cortisone injection (I should say injections because they worked both sides of my spine in about 20 or 30 spots and also loaded my spinal cord). Despite all the damage, it really did help a LOT. Iirc, it took about 5 days to kick in, then lasted about five weeks.
The second one was done at the hospital by the house, under old xray machines, and they had me sweating so bad they had to bring someone in to mop the floor. They constantly stopped the procedure because my blood pressure was bottoming out. When they were done, I couldn't walk and they hauled my ass to the ER, stuck a bunch of needles in me and gave me tons of muscle relaxers to break the grip.
That was my last "conservative measure". It was excruciating. My doc and my surgeon called me the next day and I agreed to surgery.

Point being, they work wonders if done properly by good doctors in good facilities. I'd not hesitate to have one done again if I thought for a minute it'd be any help.

Strictly outpatient surgical facilities for me with a good anesthesiologist.
Also, never, ever without a local and fluoroscopy.
All that said, they hit my nerve once and I almost went postal on them.

[mash]

Well, let's see.
A doctor I am not but let's determine how bad my Derrick Thomas example truly is.

He died of a blood clot, post operative.

As a doctor, please clarify for me.
Is there a potential risk for terminal blood clots post surgeries?
Is this potential recently being determined to be more pervasive than previously thought?

I believe you will have to agree there is.

If there is, and Derrick Thomas got one post surgery to attempt to repair his post traumatic paralysis, how is my analogy so far off?


In answer to your questions:

No, I don't agree that "this potential recently being determined to be more pervasive than previously thought". By whom?

Your analogy is very far off. Thomas had a spinal cord decompression, and then had his spinal column fixed with hardware and a bone graft from his hip. All of this time, he was totally immoblized. You are attributing his risk of pulmonary embolism to the general case where a non-paralyzed person gets a discectomy as a rationale to not have surgery. Simply wrong.
I'm with you on not having surgery unless it is the only option, this is just not a valid argument.

[Blueface]

In answer to your questions:

No, I don't agree that "this potential recently being determined to be more pervasive than previously thought". By whom?

Your analogy is very far off. Thomas had a spinal cord decompression, and then had his spinal column fixed with hardware and a bone graft from his hip. All of this time, he was totally immoblized. You are attributing his risk of pulmonary embolism to the general case where a non-paralyzed person gets a discectomy as a rationale to not have surgery. Simply wrong.
I'm with you on not having surgery unless it is the only option, this is just not a valid argument.

I respect your opinion.
I'll remain with mine.
Not the first time I have disagreed with a doctor.

As to where I got the prevalence of clots post op, tons of material on that.
In fact, it is even alluded to in the article I attached, which I candidly found post my post. I didn't type this. Someone else did.

"Nothing has been confirmed but the coroner did tell us that he thinks Mia died from a blood clot related to the knee surgery," she adds. "We are just now finding this out that this is all too common and people don't know the risks of arthroscopic surgery. They need to be made aware of the risks."

And to think this was knee surgery. Not a doctor but would bet the spine is a tad more complicated.
At least we agree on the surgery part which was my main point.
Enough about DT as far as I am concerned.
On with the thread.

[Blueface]

I didn't write this either.

http://www.ehow.com/about_5084589_signs-blood-clots-after-surgery.html

Or this.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/blood-clots-after-surgery.html

Or this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6718292/Risk-of-blood-clots-after-surgery-is-higher-than-thought-research.html

Or this.

http://www.webmd.com/dvt/news/20091204/post-op-blood-clot-risk-high

Or this.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/224814/blood_clots_after_surgery_what_should.html

[Blueface]

I know I said enough of DT BUT.......

Here is what one of the article says.
Like most things, developing a blood clot after surgery is more common with age. The chances become higher for individuals over 40 years of age. If you are over 40 and are anticipating a surgery you must be aware of the symptoms of a blood clot so you can contact your doctor right away.

First, a lot of clots form in the thigh or lower leg. Your leg may begin to experience pain and sudden swelling. The leg can begin to turn a reddish-blue color. Your leg may also begin to feel warm.

Second, Clots can break loose and travel back to your lungs. If it blocks the flow of blood to your lungs you could suffer a pulmonary embolism. This is serious and can often cause sudden death. Contact your doctor immediately if you find yourself suffering from any of the following symptoms: a stabbing chest pain, shortness of breath, a rapid heart beat, dizziness, fainting, profuse sweating, anxiety, coughs for no reason, or coughing up blood.

Now isn't this what happened to DT, it went to his lungs?
Didn't he have surgery and didn't he have a pulmonary embolism?
I know immobilized is key more often but not always.
Aren't you somewhat immobilized post serious invasive back surgery?
If it can happen from a flight on a plane, it cant from any surgery confining you to bed, even if just days?

On to med school for me so I can better debate this.

[mash]

I know I said enough of DT BUT.......

Here is what one of the article says.
Like most things, developing a blood clot after surgery is more common with age. The chances become higher for individuals over 40 years of age. If you are over 40 and are anticipating a surgery you must be aware of the symptoms of a blood clot so you can contact your doctor right away.

First, a lot of clots form in the thigh or lower leg. Your leg may begin to experience pain and sudden swelling. The leg can begin to turn a reddish-blue color. Your leg may also begin to feel warm.

Second, Clots can break loose and travel back to your lungs. If it blocks the flow of blood to your lungs you could suffer a pulmonary embolism. This is serious and can often cause sudden death. Contact your doctor immediately if you find yourself suffering from any of the following symptoms: a stabbing chest pain, shortness of breath, a rapid heart beat, dizziness, fainting, profuse sweating, anxiety, coughs for no reason, or coughing up blood.

Now isn't this what happened to DT, it went to his lungs?
Didn't he have surgery and didn't he have a pulmonary embolism?
I know immobilized is key more often but not always.
Aren't you somewhat immobilized post serious invasive back surgery?
If it can happen from a flight on a plane, it cant from any surgery confining you to bed, even if just days?

On to med school for me so I can better debate this.

When you get there, ask one of your teachers what the term "relative risk" means, and how to apply it.
Please just let this go. I don't know what you do for a living, but I wouldn't presume to have the same expertise as you do in your field, and keep arguing on and on. Doctors, myself included, don't know everything, but this is a simple concept, and it doesn't get more fuzzy just because you can't understand or accept it.

[Blueface]

When you get there, ask one of your teachers what the term "relative risk" means, and how to apply it.
Please just let this go. I don't know what you do for a living, but I wouldn't presume to have the same expertise as you do in your field, and keep arguing on and on. Doctors, myself included, don't know everything, but this is a simple concept, and it doesn't get more fuzzy just because you can't understand or accept it.

Will do.
You call what I call discussion on a discussion board an argument?
Is that what you call it when a patient questions your judgment?
No doctor, including yourself can be provided a different perspective?

In the meantime, what about all the material I posted?
Is it all BS because it does not agree with you?
Why have you chosen to ignore that and instead talk me down?
Should they go back to school also?
Now we are arguing but I am done.
Let those that read this thread decide.
Couldn't care less.

I am genuinely amazed that at out of all on that post, to include quoting from attached material, on to med school for me is the thing to respond to.
Freaking amazing.

[smelvis]

No Offense to either but personally I am dealing with it now and can we move past the guy that died. so maybe the rest of us can get something from this thread. Doc I am interested in your thoughts as well as anyone's!

Thanks everyone.

Dave

[icehog3]

Let's leave the thread for the OP to get some inisght and leave the debate or discussion to PMs or off this thread. Thanks. :)

[Blueface]

No Offense to either but personally I am dealing with it now and can we move past the guy that died. so maybe the rest of us can get something from this thread. Doc I am interested in your thoughts as well as anyone's!

Thanks everyone.

Dave

Let's leave the thread for the OP to get some inisght and leave the debate or discussion to PMs or off this thread. Thanks. :)

I am done and off I go.
Nothing to debate as never saw it as such.
Doc knows best and I am a fool to not see that, in spite of a litany of material provided for his review.
BTW,
I respectfully also disagree with both of you as I think I'll just disagree with everyone today.
From the OP's first post.
So I am getting an injection on Monday to get me through until I can see a Nero-Surgeon on June 8. Has any here ever had a surgery for a bulging disc in their back?
The dead guy IS relevant, as is the dead girl.
It is about the risk of surgery, which is the OP's direction he may be headed.
The first dead guy had back problems, paralysis and surgery.
Again, pure relevance.
However, I bid a farewell and may all enjoy the Doc's advice.
I'll choose to listen to my doctor and has worked well for me.
Anyone that can't see that, fine. Enjoy your surgery.

[TBone]

This is a lot of reading and I may have lost track but here is what I know from my case. After 3 back surgeries a boat load of epidurals, physical therapy for 10 + years my disc literally looked on X-ray like a bomb went off in my back. The problem I have now is the scare tissue has impeded into my sciatic (or as I like to say psychotic) canal putting excessive pressure on my left side sciatic nerve resulting in loss of feeling in my left foot. I have been told by 3 neurosurgeons that they will not go in and remove the scare tissue for fear of paralyzing me for life. If I could do it all over again minus the blow out I would have tried other therapies out there. This is a decision you'll have to make for you and your quality of life. I wish you all the best take what was stated here and throughout the thread as good info to have and I wish you all the best on the decision you have in front of you. I'll pray that the choice you chose works for you and you don't have to live on pain meds for the rest of your life.

[forgop]

In order to pretty much comply with Tom's request, all I can say is wow...

[forgop]

The dead guy IS relevant, as is the dead girl.
It is about the risk of surgery, which is the OP's direction he may be headed.
The first dead guy had back problems, paralysis and surgery.
Again, pure relevance.


I disagree-clots are a high risk for those who are immobile/paralyzed. Many techniques are used to minimize risk for clots, such as SCD's, ted-hose, medication such as coumadin, and getting the patient walking as soon as possible after surgery. To imply that DT died because of back surgery is ludicrous. The OP's procedure is not one in which he is suffering from paralysis (a leading cause of clot formation in itself), thus he's going to have minimal risk. If surgery alone was that big of a risk leading to clot-related deaths, millions would be dying off I guess.

That said, surgery is far from a first step without considering less invasive procedures, but consult with some recommended doctors in your area for the best advice.

[bobarian]

Let's leave the thread for the OP to get some inisght and leave the debate or discussion to PMs or off this thread. Thanks. :)

In order to pretty much comply with Tom's request, all I can say is wow...

Close but no cigar! Your failure to heed a mod's gentle advice is an EPIC FAIL!

Even real doctors would not give advice based on a vague description of symptoms on a public forum. To speculate of a course of action without viewing an MRI or knowing a complete patient history is just plain ignorant. :sh

[NCRadioMan]

Travis, every case is different but your description sounds almost exactly my situation in 2006 except I had 4 problem disks. The surgeon just glanced at the MRI's and xrays, looked straight up and said, "you have to have surgery". He is a great surgeon and very well regarded, for good reason. Surgery took about 8 hours and afterward, I had to lie down 95% of the day for 3 months. Had the surgery in early Feb. and was 'normal' again come May.

Today, my back isn't perfect (because of a 17 year hip problem) but everything is still in place, spurs gone, no nerve problems. Of course he said surgery is always a last resort but in my case, in his opinion and two other Dr's that I saw, that was the only choice that could be made. I am glad I did.

[longknocker]

Here's My :2 If You Have Back Pain With No Appreciable Sciatica Or Foot Drop (In Other Words No Appreciable Nerve Impingement), Your Back Should Improve With Time. If You Have Foot Drop, Bowel Or Bladder Involvement, Or Any Other Symptoms Of Nerve Impingement, Immediate Surgery Is Required. Get Several Opinions From Reputable Neurosurgeons. Hope Your Situation Improves, Brother; Thoughts & Prayers Sent!:tu

[mash]

Apologies for taking this so far off course. Back pain is miserable, I hope the OP gets relief sooner or later.

[BeerAdvocate]

Thanks for all of the advice and comments. I wouldn't even consider surgery if it was just "normal" back pain. But I have pain that shoots down my leg and in my foot allllllll day long.
I have tried physical therapy, stretching, percocet(with & without beer)....and there is no relief. It doesnt matter what position I am in when I sleep, the pain is there! I will be sure and discuss everything thoroughly with my Dr & Neurosurgeon, but right now I dont see any other option. I am going on two months with this pain and it has been very frustrating.

[shilala]

Travis, I don't want to think I'm minimizing your situation, I just want to tell you what they're likely to do and what you're up against.
First of all, Thank God that it's not both sides from your midback to your feet, and that your legs don't go numb and your feet don't turn to numb needles and pins 20 times a day. Point being, it can be a LOT worse.
Doctors absolutely have to put you through every conservative measure possible. You'd think there's something simple they can do, but there's not. Sometimes folks stumble onto a solution like a new bed or hanging suspended in a pool that brings relief.
They could give you lots more drugs, right? Opiates bind you up. You can't poop, they make you sick, you can easily become addicted, and hemmorhoids ensue to a level that makes your back pain a second thought.
Two months with the pain is a very short time. I know it's driving you out of your mind, but that's just what it is. Not a doctor in the world would consider surgery at this point, and if they would, please run like hell.
I know it's tough to put the pain in perspective as it relates to what the medical field can and will do. Right now, your options are limited. You've got a long, tough road aho.

Here's some stuff that really helped me along the way...
1.) Ice. I put ice cubes in a seal-a-meal and made great big ice packs. Despite covering them real well, I gave myself frostbite a number of times. It helped though. I laid on ice for hours. I also had a back brace that held the ice pack on my back, it helped me wear the ice day and night if necessary.
2.) I tried heat. It drove me out of my mind, but it helps lots of people because it loosens the muscle spasms that make the nerve impingement worse.
3.) Flector patches. They're NSAID patches that you stick on and the medicine goes right down through your skin. It never enters your bloodstream, or so they say. They still work wonders for me when the swelling gets big as a turtle. They are hideously expensive, but your doc may have samples.
4.) Fight through the pain. When the pain would get absolutely unbearable, I'd go outside, even in the middle of the night and dig up a stump or dig a hole, or move cement blocks. I'd collapse, cry, go through all sorts of histrionics. The pain would be so bad that I thought I'd die. Then when I stopped, what was left seemed like a vacation. It just changed my perspective. Being as all the bones in my back were smashed, it wasn't a real good idea. It was that or go nuts.
5.) Physical therapy in the pool. The relief didn't last long, sometimes there was no relief at all. But ten minutes of relief was worth all the pain getting there and getting out of there.
6.) Read, read, read. Every second I could, I was reading at back pain forums, back surgery forums, reading about the structure of the back, finding out what to expect and what were unrealistic expectations.
7.) Learn the limitations of medicine. There's a reason why it's called "practicing" medicine. Doctors are not magicians. When we are in so much pain, we expect that they should spend their every waking moment trying to solve our predicament. When they don't, I got a "they don't care" attitude. They do care. There's only so much they can do.
8.) Realize that time takes time. Time heals all wounds is really bullsh1t, but it does play a huge part in recovery from a back injury. A lot of it is that we just get used to pain. Right now there's not much of my body that doesn't hurt. Pain is running down my right leg because I chose that. When I'm tired of that pain, I'll move my butt a little and it'll stream down my left leg. I've simply gotten used to pain. I don't notice when I get cut, smash a finger, or stub a toe anymore. I just keep moving and Thank God I can do that.
9.) Learn your body. That goes with reading, but make notes. Write down when it hurts most, and try to figure out why. You're your body's steward and you'll need to pay close attention from here on out, and you'll need to heed your limits or pay the price. The notes really help put two and two together. I use notes and my wife to track a neurological disorder I have, and without her and the notes I would have never made the progress I have. There's just too much info to keep straight in my brain.
10.) When the barometric pressure dips below 30.00, it's gonna hurt worse. Watch the pressure and use it to prepare, and use it as solace to answer "why does this hurt so much more today?
11.) Pray. I pray constantly. If not for Him and the help and support of my friends and family, I've never have made it this far.

My accident was on March 4, 2008. My pain level up till surgery was a constant 10. Immediately after surgery I had some relief, maybe down to a 6 or 7, for a few months. Since then, It's generally a 9 or 10 all day every day. On sunny high pressure days it goes to around a 7. For the last three days it's been a solid 10, and it woke me up a number of times last night. Like I said, we get used to it.

Try some of the stuff I mentioned, and give each a good shot. You can't try for an hour, get frustrated, and go to something else. It all takes time.
It all sucks, and it all is very tough on your head. When you get upset it gets worse. From day one I took it as an opportunity to work on my patience and tolerance, and I've come a long, long way as a person because of it. I would have much rather it were granted to me in another way, but that's what was in store for me. It hasn't killed me, it won't kill me, and it's made me a better person. Life is different, but people's lives change all the time.
I just thank God I'm not in a wheelchair or worse. I never forget "but for the Grace of God, there go I". It may sound odd that I'm thankful for the hand I've been dealt, but I am. I wouldn't trade lives with anyone.

[forgop]

Thanks for all of the advice and comments. I wouldn't even consider surgery if it was just "normal" back pain. But I have pain that shoots down my leg and in my foot allllllll day long.
I have tried physical therapy, stretching, percocet(with & without beer)....and there is no relief. It doesnt matter what position I am in when I sleep, the pain is there! I will be sure and discuss everything thoroughly with my Dr & Neurosurgeon, but right now I dont see any other option. I am going on two months with this pain and it has been very frustrating.

I know it's already been mentioned and maybe you've already answered it and I just overlooked it, but are you at a "healthy" weight? I know taking 50 lbs off of my midsection would do wonders for my back. I know I was "lucky" that I wasn't really experiencing pain, but the ultimate reason why I chose surgery is because I could have ultimately lost bladder function (and other highly desired capabilities if you know what I mean) and even ultimately wake up one day and be unable to walk normally.

That would suck and if you're experiencing that sort of pain, I would get the opinion from at least 2 different doctors, and if they have different suggestions, get a third. :2

[mosesbotbol]

P.s.
Best cure.........lose weight.
Exercise.
Do leg raises and other exercise to strengthen back.

Most folks I know post surgery are not much better than before.

Very true. Do not rush to surgery and most surgeons are not going to rush you either if you can go to the bathroom or can walk. I have been through this without surgery.

Consider the below as a roadmap. You are already getting a cortisone shot. This is your chance to make changes to your body before the shot wears out and hopefully you won’t need a 2nd one.

Think of your spine, you want to get it straight and create space between each vertebra.

-Not having it straight inhibits energy flow out of the spine and central nervous system. It also puts unequal stress on disks and furthers your condition. Chiropractor is the key to this. It may get worse before getting better, but keep the goal of getting things aligned and your bulge almost has to go away…

-Creating space in the spine should have obvious reasoning to you. The most space between vertebrae, the less the pressure on the disks.

Think of the above as a one-two punch all done with specialists. This is not cheap even with insurance, but is nothing like the pain you have and will have if you don’t do this.

Start practicing yoga and stretching to create space. Take some pilates classes to strengthen your core without stressing the back. Get on a plan with a good chiropractor who will oversee you exercise program and stretch you before adjusting. There are yoga and pilate instructors in every city. After a few classes of each with an istructor, you should be able to handle a class.

Thanks for all of the advice and comments. I wouldn't even consider surgery if it was just "normal" back pain. But I have pain that shoots down my leg and in my foot allllllll day long.

You have sciatica straight up. As long as you are twisted & compressed on the lower back, you'll have inflamation of the nerve and it ain't going away no matter how much booze or pills you take.

[BeerAdvocate]

I really appreciate all of the advice and useful info. Thanks guys! :tu

[forgop]

Very true. Do not rush to surgery and most surgeons are not going to rush you either if you can go to the bathroom or can walk. I have been through this without surgery.

Consider the below as a roadmap. You are already getting a cortisone shot. This is your chance to make changes to your body before the shot wears out and hopefully you won’t need a 2nd one.

Think of your spine, you want to get it straight and create space between each vertebra.

-Not having it straight inhibits energy flow out of the spine and central nervous system. It also puts unequal stress on disks and furthers your condition. Chiropractor is the key to this. It may get worse before getting better, but keep the goal of getting things aligned and your bulge almost has to go away…

-Creating space in the spine should have obvious reasoning to you. The most space between vertebrae, the less the pressure on the disks.

Think of the above as a one-two punch all done with specialists. This is not cheap even with insurance, but is nothing like the pain you have and will have if you don’t do this.

Start practicing yoga and stretching to create space. Take some pilates classes to strengthen your core without stressing the back. Get on a plan with a good chiropractor who will oversee you exercise program and stretch you before adjusting. There are yoga and pilate instructors in every city. After a few classes of each with an istructor, you should be able to handle a class.



You have sciatica straight up. As long as you are twisted & compressed on the lower back, you'll have inflamation of the nerve and it ain't going away no matter how much booze or pills you take.

:tpd::tpd::tpd:

[smelvis]

Bump and Thanks

[MrsSledn]

For never having neck / shoulder pain, when I started experiencing it along with some of the worst head pain of my life, I went to the doctor. She had an extra of my neck done. In the mean time, I went to a chiropractor. (It was thought by some that when I twisted my ankle 3 times in 5 months, that it messed up my alignment.) In my initial visit, he was able to tell me a lot. What I didn't like was him pushing on the top of my head, since I have been experiencing some bad head aches. I have been going to him for adjustments. The right side of my neck is the main problem. It's like a brick. He got my xray and said I have a bit of stage 1 degenerative discs in my neck. I also got sent in for MRI's of my C-Spine and right TMJ. An hour and a half in that tube was NOT fun! TMJ is fine. Showed a couple slipped discs in my neck. He said this happens to everyone in time as older age approaches. What made mine worse was Cheerleading for many years and a car accident.

Will I have surgery for it? Oh heck no and no one has mentioned it. My Chiropractor did say I would have to see a Chiro for the rest of my life.

The headaches are the worst part. A muscle relaxer has helped.

I would consider surgery as a very last resort. Bring your tests in to a Chiropractor and find a GOOD one. She what that doctor says before making any decisions. It's not going to hurt to try. I am glad I went. Opened my eyes to a lot over the past few weeks!

[forgop]

[QUOTE=MrsSledn;1264714 My Chiropractor did say I would have to see a Chiro for the rest of my life.

[/QUOTE]

Of course he's gonna say that. I'd say before settling on a chiropractor for life, get a real doctor's opinion as well.

[RevSmoke]

Will keep you in my prayers that the Lord provide you with answers and bless those who care for you medically, with guidance and wisdom.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

[mosesbotbol]

This thread made me schedule a chiropractor appointment this afternoon :r

I would suggest to anyone who has chiropractic benefits on their health insurance to use it whether they have back pain or not. You're paying for the benefit, so why not?

Of course he's gonna say that. I'd say before settling on a chiropractor for life, get a real doctor's opinion as well.

Start off on the chiropractor's schedule and as you get better, the time between visits will increase. It could be two months before a visit once better, but I would agree a Chiropractor is for life... Finding the right Chiropractor is essential. A good tip would be to call your local professional sports teams. Ask them who their Chiropractors are and go there. Professional sports rely heavily on Chiropractors and many of their trainers are Chiropractors already. Being warm, stretched, and limber essential to a good adjustment.

Your back will just eventually go out of alignment. The muscle memory is a b***h. Pilates and gentle yoga will really keep you loose and strong in your core. They'll both help you in weightloss if that is an issue. I don't know many guys who couldn't benefit from shedding weight.

Doctors are going to base your progress simply on flexibility, bodily function, and pain level. If you are OK, they will offer nothing you haven't heard to this point. Continue with your annual primary doctor visits.

[MrsSledn]

Of course he's gonna say that. I'd say before settling on a chiropractor for life, get a real doctor's opinion as well.

Medical doctors from my understanding, do not care for Chiropractors. Why? I don't know.

When I told my general physican the comment my Chiro said, she laughed a bit and put me on Flexirol.

So take a pill for relief or go the Chiropractic way? Put a band aid on a problem instead of finding out why the problem is happening to begin with?

It's each person's own choice.

[shilala]

A couple of my buds are chiropractors.
One of them explained to me how he was going to repair a half pound of smashed bone in my back with his voodoo. He can also cure everything from acne to polio.
I never was a big fan as a result of past treatments, and he sure didn't help. I understand he's an exception and not the rule, and there's quacks wherever there's room for quackery, but my experience with Chiropractic has been dismal at best.
If it helps, and you guys have found good Chiropractors, by God, hang on to them. I wouldn't be found in a Chiropractor's office, and I wouldn't wish one on anyone. Ever.

[BeerAdvocate]

I have a good Chiro and I have seen him for my back problem but he cant help me.
I got an injection on Monday and it has yet to kick in. Dr said it could take up to a week.
This sure is getting frustrating!

[mosesbotbol]

I have a good Chiro and I have seen him for my back problem but he cant help me.

What is his specific reason why his chiropractic adjustments are not working? How many have you had? Have you 20-30+ adjustments already?

[BeerAdvocate]

I had 6-8 adjustments, and I actually felt worse afterwards.

[smelvis]

A couple of my buds are chiropractors.
One of them explained to me how he was going to repair a half pound of smashed bone in my back with his voodoo. He can also cure everything from acne to polio.
I never was a big fan as a result of past treatments, and he sure didn't help. I understand he's an exception and not the rule, and there's quacks wherever there's room for quackery, but my experience with Chiropractic has been dismal at best.
If it helps, and you guys have found good Chiropractors, by God, hang on to them. I wouldn't be found in a Chiropractor's office, and I wouldn't wish one on anyone. Ever.

I had bad ones and now I have a great guy if not for him and my general Doctor lady I would have went nut's. Jim my Chiro is secondary or not a preferred provider on my insurance and the guy takes what my insurance pays and doesn't charge me the extra. Sadly my back is past the stage where he can help much, once every few weeks I get tangled up where I walk pretty funny and can't straighten up and he can still fix that. but that's about it along with the neck adjustments.

In fact I think most including my employer thought I was faking until they took a lower back MRI and guess what there it was, they didn't pick it up on the regular full back MRI go figure. Still waiting for L & I to try and screw me. pricks. I wish we could transfer the pain to the doubters I bet they would go home crying like babies, pricks!!v:sl

[treatneggy]

Reading this thread , it's obvious everyone's experience is different.

My wife went to the emergeny room 1yr ago this past Feb. (for what her GP over the phone said was a pulled muscle) - she had no feeling in her right leg from the waist down and was in so much pain she could barely even move.

It took 5 hours and 2 or 3 percoset before the attending physician decided to do an MRI, stating that "we won't find anything wrong with you," even after poking needles in her leg from the knee down to her toes and her telling him she couldn't feel any of it. End result was severely herniated L5-S1 and bulging on L3-L4 and L4-L5. Followup with spine specialist the next day resulted in her being in the operating room two days after that, because according to him "we could give you all the drugs at our disposal and it won't help". During surgery they removed a good portion of the L5-S1 disc and shaved the bulges off of L3-L4 and L4-L5.

The surgery took away "most" of her pain, but to this day she still has neuropathy and only partial feeling in her leg and foot due to either the nerve still being pinched or permanent nerve damage. The last x-ray she had done showed disk degeneration progressing up into L2-L3.

[mosesbotbol]

I had 6-8 adjustments, and I actually felt worse afterwards.

You should feel worse. Your back has been "out" for a long time and getting straight is going to hurt more as I posted earlier. You should have 20-30 sessions with going 2-3 times a week.

Unless your body is aligned, you're going to have a lifetime of back pain. Surgery could very well make it worse for life. No one knows how much scar tissue you'll have from surgery and if that pushed against the nerve- you lose.

It sounds to me you did not give chiro a fair shake. You'll find great two weeks after your shot, but it's just temporary- not a "cure".

Transforming your body is a cure.

[mash]

I realize that there are lots of opinions and anecdotes about back pain, which usually means that nothing works predictably. You don't hear people disputing the usefulness of Insulin.
That said, there is no evidence, none, that chiropractor treatments help with chronic back pain. I would be very wary about going to one ad infinitum, or "forever", if they aren't helping you.

[forgop]

Medical doctors from my understanding, do not care for Chiropractors. Why? I don't know.

When I told my general physican the comment my Chiro said, she laughed a bit and put me on Flexirol.

So take a pill for relief or go the Chiropractic way? Put a band aid on a problem instead of finding out why the problem is happening to begin with?

It's each person's own choice.

I'm not saying chiropractors are all bad as I've used them in the past myself-God only knows that he'd probably do me some good for my current back issues. All I'm saying is a chiropractors himself has a vested interest in making you believe you're a patient for life.

What I'm suggesting is having a doctor that specializes in back issues give you an actual prognosis and how they would deal with it (a general physician is only someone I'd see for minor stuff like basic illnesses/wellness checks). If a specialist says the chiropractor is your best bet, by all means do so. Obviously, it's a surgeon's best interest to get you on the table, but I don't know of a legit doctor that is going to recommend surgery unless there are other less invasive options you haven't already tried without any relief. :2

[mosesbotbol]

That said, there is no evidence, none, that chiropractor treatments help with chronic back pain. I would be very wary about going to one ad infinitum, or "forever", if they aren't helping you.

There isn't? How did you come to this statement? How about the millions that no longer have back pain from Chiropractic treatment?

Spinal alignment is critical for energy flow throughout the body and when the spine isn't aligned, there's unequal pressure put on the disks. It's a pretty simple. An unaligned spine twists the hips and creates unequal leg lengths which does cause injury and puts further pressure on the disks.

This is not to exclude spinal lengthening and reducing weight. If one's waist is less than 8" chest width, time to start losing weight!

[shilala]

There isn't? How did you come to this statement? How about the millions that no longer have back pain from Chiropractic treatment?

Moses, there's no doubt that it works for some people. I think what the doc means is that it's not been studied, nor formally presented to any acting medical body like the AMA.
I've never seen any numbers like that, and I'm crazy anal about doing my due diligence. I've read volumes of papers both presurgery and postsurgery. In all those Google searches, I've never seen any numbers or studies come up that regard chiropractic effectiveness for chronic back pain. Granted, it may be because I never specifically looked. I just assumed they didn't exist.
I'd sure like to look at some, if you know of any. I suppose it'd be hard to find any that aren't eye-rollers being that there's no reason for chiropractic to do anything but sway numbers in their favor, and no disconnected body that's interested in refuting/retesting their data.
All a person can do is try them and see if they help.

Personally, I have no doubt that they can solve minor to medium issues with adjustment, so long as we lose weight and exercise. It's pretty much common sense.
I don't think they can solve major back problems, save the whales, and cure the environment as some assert.
One thing I think most chiropractors have over doctors is that they really do care about their patients individually, they'll expend a huge amount of effort to get to know you, your condition, and do everything within their power to help. That positivity alone can go a long way toward healing people, and I think it's 100% awesome. :tu

[mosesbotbol]

Moses, there's no doubt that it works for some people. I think what the doc means is that it's not been studied, nor formally presented to any acting medical body like the AMA.

Why are chiropractors so widely used by pro atheletes where cost is not a consideration?

Read this article on AC Milan and how a chiropractor improved player performance and how players avoided injury.

http://brightonchiropractor.wordpress.com/2010/03/10/the-secret-to-david-beckhams-and-ac-milans-continued-success-a-chiropractor/

[mash]

There isn't? How did you come to this statement? How about the millions that no longer have back pain from Chiropractic treatment?

Spinal alignment is critical for energy flow throughout the body and when the spine isn't aligned, there's unequal pressure put on the disks. It's a pretty simple. An unaligned spine twists the hips and creates unequal leg lengths which does cause injury and puts further pressure on the disks.

This is not to exclude spinal lengthening and reducing weight. If one's waist is less than 8" chest width, time to start losing weight!


In answering you, I'm going to keep the OP in mind. I don't want him to believe that a) chiropractors are backed by data showing they can cure chronic back pain and b) you should go for one forever, if you don't get better it's just because you haven't gone enough. Both of these statements are false, and are not wise to follow.
Is it true that people have had relief of back pain going to a chiropractor? I'm sure they have. Same as people that go to massage, wear copper bracelets, get acupuncture, see a naturopath etc. Have "millions" gotten better? I don't know, where are those numbers from? How many people have gone to chiropractors and not gotten better? What is their success rate? If people go to a chiropractor for 10 treatments and don't get better, what is their chance of ever getting relief? How about 20? How many people would get better if they did nothing, and let nature take its course? Do all chiropractors follow the same protocol, if not do some have higher success rates than others? Are there certain types of back pathologies that respond better to chiropractic treatment than others?
This is what I mean by evidence as opposed to anecdotes (people saying "I used a chiropractor, I got better, you should use one too. I don't know anything about your condition, but I'm sure you'll have the same result I did.")

As with any therapy, if you are using a chiropractor and not getting better, you should seriously consider whether you should keep going. Are you helping yourself? Please be a critical observer, this applies to traditional medicine as well.

[shilala]

Why are chiropractors so widely used by pro atheletes where cost is not a consideration?

Read this article on AC Milan and how a chiropractor improved player performance and how players avoided injury.

http://brightonchiropractor.wordpress.com/2010/03/10/the-secret-to-david-beckhams-and-ac-milans-continued-success-a-chiropractor/

"It is where neurology, biochemistry, psychology, dentistry and chiropractic are used to maintain fitness and to detect potential injuries."
and...
"I imagine that Milan’s players are prescribed medication as part of their injury treatment, although Meerseman would not do that himself."

Those two things kinda stick out like a sore thumb, Moses.
The article doesn't support any "widely" assertion.
As I said earlier, I have no doubt that chiropractic can help in some situations. Here's one where it's used preventatively, in combination with a whole regimen of wellness conducive activities. As I said earlier, it makes good common sense. The players are treating their bodies right in every way possible, from a wide variety of angles. Optimum health should definately cut down on injuries, and I'm sure it's doing that for the team, even though there's no numbers stated, which was the conversation we were having.
If anything, the story supports what I said earlier...
"One thing I think most chiropractors have over doctors is that they really do care about their patients individually, they'll expend a huge amount of effort to get to know you, your condition, and do everything within their power to help. That positivity alone can go a long way toward healing people, and I think it's 100% awesome."
This team has a 100% dedicated Chiropractor that's open minded and uses everything available to create a complete wellness program.
I think that's genius. Not something you'll get going to the doctor, either.
That's not a knock on doctors, they're trapped in a system where they have to maximize performance and minimize individual attention.
It's a shame it's come to that, but it's what it is.

Again, if someone is getting relief from a chiropractor, like I said, by God, hang on to him. I didn't find that in my experience, unfortunately.
I respect anyone's choice to try a chiropractor, but I'd still not recommend one, both because of my experience and the fact that I don't know one who's created results I'd recommend.

[mosesbotbol]

This team has a 100% dedicated Chiropractor that's open minded and uses everything available to create a complete wellness program.
I think that's genius. Not something you'll get going to the doctor, either.

That is why I go. Maybe you are limiting the chiropractor to just the actual adjustment? The whole session is more than that, actually only 10-15% of my visit. Physio and stretching, Graston technique, diet & medicine, training with results analysis are all part of the visit.

There are sports rehabilitation centers in many cities. I would suggest anyone with back issues to visit them for therapy over our standard health clinic. The sports rehab's have every discipline from doctors, PT's, to chiro's and acupuncture. They take a team approach to use their specialties as needed. It's worth giving this ago before considering a surgery.

[BeerAdvocate]

Well I never thought my post would get 5 pages of responses. Thanks to everyone.
I am not anti-Chiro by any means. My wife & I along with both of our famalies have been going to the same Chiro for years and we all like him. He has done great things for all of us. But I also think that Chiro's can not solve all of your problems each and every time. I am not dead set on surgery. I will talk to a Neuro-Surgeon, My regular Dr, My pain Dr and my Chiro before I make a decision. I like all of them and trust their advice.

[mash]

Well I never thought my post would get 5 pages of responses. Thanks to everyone.
I am not anti-Chiro by any means. My wife & I along with both of our famalies have been going to the same Chiro for years and we all like him. He has done great things for all of us. But I also think that Chiro's can not solve all of your problems each and every time. I am not dead set on surgery. I will talk to a Neuro-Surgeon, My regular Dr, My pain Dr and my Chiro before I make a decision. I like all of them and trust their advice.

That just shows you how controversial treatment for back pain is, and how common it is. As one of my colleagues says, if you ask a 40 year old if he's ever had back pain and he says no, he has dementia.
Sounds like you have an open mind and a balanced approach to this, best of luck with your pain.

[LUCY1108]

After a month of being in pain, I had an MRI today and found out that I have not one but two Bulging Disc's in my very lower back.
Im in so much pain that Percocet & beer wont even cure it. So I am getting an injection on Monday to get me through until I can see a Nero-Surgeon on June 8. Has any here ever had a surgery for a bulging disc in their back?
What can I expect?

How did your appointment go?

I have been dealing with back problems for 4 years. I started with the chiro, then did anti inflammatories, then injections, then a ton of painful tests, then a micro-discectomy, then a multi level spinal fusion. and now I am a chronic pain patient. My back is debilitating!! I had to retire from the job I loved (police officer). Now I take powerful pain meds and my doc wants me to consider a spinal cord stimulator. I guess my point in telling you all this is that you need to be sure, get more then one opinion!! See a spine specialist. FRom my understanding neuro-surgeons are more for thoracic (neck) pain. I included the link to the blog I started maybe it will answer some more questions. BEcause of this pain I have gained weight and became depressed and oh did I mention the blood clots I got from my fusion surgery? I dont mean to scare you just being realistic.

http://lucy655-chronicpainpatient.blogspot.com/

[ZachF88]

I had a compression fracture of L5 a day before my 17th birthday (Auto accident). With this, I have 3 bulging disks. I did not have surgery (due to my age). I am now 23 and certainly feel it some days. The best thing I did was to buy a foam roller and use it 2-3 times a day. It hurts like hell at first, but then it gets better. All surgeons are assholes (know this because I have way too many surgeons in my family) and I must say chiropractors are a hell of a lot better than some of these surgeons who just want to cut you up and your wallet. I know at some point I will need surgery, but working out, keeping the belly fat down and stretching will prolong the surgery. Best of luck my friend!

[Wanger]

OK...here's my :2...

I've had back problems since after my freshman year in college, and it is was ended my college football career. Now this was in the early 90s, and treatmetns weren't as advanced as they are now. Surgery was not recommended back then, as those who had it generally didn't get the results they were hoping for.

Here's the story with my injury. I was doing squats with weight that was not a huge amount for me. I finished a set and racked the bar. As I did so, I felt pain in my hammy. I thought it was actually my hamstring and lightened the weight and finished all my lifting for the day (2 more sets of squats and 3 sets of cleans were included). Then I went and played ~5 games of basketball that night. The next morning, I couldn't move. PAIN and numbness on the back of my right leg from my hip to my heel. Went to a chiro for a while, and he thought pinched nerve. Got treatment for about 3-4 weeks and didn't see a huge improvement. He had me go get an MRI, adn that's when they found it. Herniation at L5-S1, and 2 bulging discs above that, plus the typical "degeneration" that they seem to throw into everyones report. Immediately had me see a neuro, who prescribed some steroids and told me to use Advil for pain. When I went back to campus at the end of the summer, I was in the trainers room doing therapy every day of the week. I had the classic foot drop, which they recorded me walking to use as a teaching tool. It got better and better. In the spring, I was able to play in spring practices and the spring game. I felt great, but had good and bad days, and then through the summer, so I made the decision to give it up. One thing the head trainer told me has stuck with me to this day. Eveyone will be different...You can look at an MRI of someone that looks REALLY bad, and they feel absolutely no pain, while someone who barely looks like they have anything wrong in theirs is in crippling pain. You gotta base your decisions on how you feel, in combination with how things look, not just one or the other. And he said he didn't feel that surgery was a good option.

Over the years since then, I've gone through periods of inactivity and that is when I had more flareups. I've played basketball with no issues, and in the last 2 years, I've gotten into triathlons. I still have been symptom free. I have a good chiro that I go see when I need to. he doesn't just do the crack here and there, so you're good. He adjusts where the body needs it, and the techniques he uses actually work. I've been very pleased with the results I saw from him.

All I can say is do what you feel is right and will work for you, and please get opinions from more than one doc. It will only serve to help you make the best decision. :)

[shilala]

That is why I go. Maybe you are limiting the chiropractor to just the actual adjustment? The whole session is more than that, actually only 10-15% of my visit. Physio and stretching, Graston technique, diet & medicine, training with results analysis are all part of the visit.

There are sports rehabilitation centers in many cities. I would suggest anyone with back issues to visit them for therapy over our standard health clinic. The sports rehab's have every discipline from doctors, PT's, to chiro's and acupuncture. They take a team approach to use their specialties as needed. It's worth giving this ago before considering a surgery.

I think we're on the same track, Moses. We're just not comparing apples to apples. You're talking about a fully rounded sports medicine facility that includes chiropractic as part of a wellness plan that's situated in a large city. I don't disagree that that could be a realistic, helpful, and even possible curing venue.
What I'm talking about is everything outside those big complexes. The chiropractors on every street corner who claim that misalignment is the cause of colds, cancer, rabies, cottonmouth, cankers and bad smelling farts. A simple adjustment will cure all your ailments.
While I do believe that an alignment can relieve some sort of nerve pressure, it's only going to last as long as you retrain the muscles around the natural misalignment. Part of a plan, as you're speaking of.
That doesn't happen in backwater. It's crack, that'll be 90 bucks, please.
To call what you're calling Chiropractic is borderline insult to what those facilities are doing. It's not comparative.
I just don't want folks to walk into the corner chiropractor and expect results like you and I have been debating.
If someone walks into a backwater chiro with zero to very low expectation, odds are they'll be pleased with the results.
If someone is suffering nerve impingement from significant structural damage to their spine, I think it's just plain wrong to point anyone in the direction of a Chiropractor. The chance that the chiro is going to do further damage is far greater than the chance that they'll achieve any type of relief.
If there is not significant structural damage, there are tons of things that can help. Of those, I think you hit on a fabulous suggestion, if a facility like that is within reach of the person who's in pain.

Bottom line is that each person is different and can tolerate different degrees and durations of pain. As bad as my body has hurt, and as long as it has, I can take focus off the pain now. The pain management drugs make me feel like crap, so I deal with the pain as best as I can for as long as I can before I use a full dosage of them. Even when I do use them, they don't provide relief, and I'm prescribed an incredible amount of pain meds. They do take the edge off, but render me worthless.
Conversely, I can remember hurting my back to a much lesser degree when I was younger and I was absolutely wrecked by the pain. It was completely dehabilitating despite there being no structural damage at all. Just a pinch that caused some swelling that went away in a couple weeks.
I mention that because I believe a person needs to be armed with knowledge that they gain through tests, studying, asking questions, and knowing every single thing there is to know about their condition. A person should become incredibly well-informed, well educated, and make sensible decisions about how they approach their injury, and try as best as possible to be realistic about what's wrong. As insensitive as it may sound, pain is not a very good indicator of condition because it will wax and wane with care as simple as an ice bag. The pain is what we always want fixed first, though. The problem is that doctors don't necessarily empathize with the pain, and don't really aim to treat it so much as they try to treat a person's underlying cause of the pain.

I hope and pray that all of you find relief, with whatever road you choose. I know how hard it is, and how long it takes.
If you feel a Chiro is right for you, by all means, please try one. I'm only stating my position and my experience based on my personal physical condition. I certainly don't know as much about your condition as you do, and I'd feel awful if all my blather kept you from finding some relief. :tu

[Ranger_B]

Travis Just my 2cents but avoid surgery at all costs. I have broken my back twice and had bulging disks a few times. My last time I severed the nerve with the disk and it has now left my right leg in a constant state of numb. I have had 6 surgeries and who knows how many procedures injections, chrio treatments, fusion, lameectomy discotmy, fusion hardwear removal. Blah blah blah. Long story short is if you have other options exhaust all of them before surgery and get a second opinion. Wish I had known then what I know now. Research everything the doctor get references and then google alot.

Either way I hope you start feeling better.