Bugs are Bad

[Ranger_B]

Well I wish I had saved a pic but at our Friday smoke in my local shop a guy brought in a Anejo 48 and it had been bored through in about 5 spots by beetles. Now these had left the shop and been in his humi at home so I am not sure where and when the bugs got there. I just thought it was weird to see them in there under the cedar and the celo. Anyone else seen bugs in an Anejo ? Bummer but without question the owner gave him a fresh smoke and then we went through the rest of the cigars in that box. I Know the B&M owner is a bit worried.

[enlightenedcigar]

Never in an Anejo but they are in close to every stick. Can't get that humidity too high.

[dwoodward]

Never in an Anejo but they are in close to every stick. Can't get that humidity too high.

I am not sure about humidity... usually bugs hatch because of the temperature the cigars are stored at.

[CoreyD]

what temp is that?

[Cornrow_Wallis]

I think the general consensus is over 70* is bad.

[neoflex]

Usually it's 75 that you need to start worrying. I went into a local Tinderbox over the weekend and walked into the store and thought it was a bit hot. As I walked into their walk-in it was down right blazing. After walking around a bit the guy working at the store asked if I needed any help and I replied "Just looking thanks." He proceeded to try and inform me of what I should be smoking so I cut him off and mentioned how hot it was in the humidor. He proceeded to tell me that the humidity and the temperature need to marry at 80. So me being a wise @ss and already annoyed that he was trying to tell me what to smoke without even asking what type of cigars I enjoy and basically talking down to me the whole time said "So you don't think 80 percent is too high?" He proceeded to tell me that this is where the temp and humidity should marry. (Sheesh this guy loves to use the word marry when describing humidity and temperature) I decided to play with him some more since clueless people intrigue me and replied with "So beetles being able to hatch above 75 degrees doesn't worry you? I can tell at this point I annoyed him enough and he responded with "Well, we haven't had any beetles hatch on us yet." At this point I think I pissed him off enough that he decided to leave me alone. I did pick up a La Sirena as I have been wanting to try these but being it was like a sponge it will be spending a few weeks out of the humidor to dry out and no where near my cabinet as the temps in their humidor have me a little nervous about ever introducing anything from them in with my stash. I do chat with the manager there from time to time and I saw him yesterday and mentioned it being a bit hot in the humidor and his only response was, "Yeah it's a little humid in there today" This was kind of surprising to me to see how hot and humid it was in there especially since this is their flagship store for Charlotte. The temp gauge on my truck read 77 out in the parking garage which their store leads into and walking out into the garage felt like I just had walked into an air conditioned room compared to their store. It was that bad.

[T.G]

Never in an Anejo but they are in close to every stick. Can't get that humidity too high.

Not exactly. Are you thinking of mold possibly? As mold spores are everywhere in the air and high humidity will cause mold to go bonkers.

Every leaf has the potential for eggs, but rarely is such the case. Not to mention, besides all the steps taken at the factories to prevent beetles getting into the cured leaves (they wouldn't survive the fermentation temps) many manufacturers and some large retailers also blast freeze their cigars for a further layer of protection.

The eggs can hatch at any temperature above about 64F and 50RH although prolonged exposure (a few weeks) to that temperature will kill the eggs. Larvae won't even develop at less than 62F. Once you start getting close to 70F, you're into the risk zone and the beetles have to fly to mate and they won't form wings at temps less than 71.5F, so over that, and you can start perpetuating multiple generations of the lil' bastards.

[mike]

A lot of knowledge here, I love it.

[T.G]

Here, good info from SilverFox in this thread with links to scientific whitepapers:
http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7919

[Bill86]

Here, good info from SilverFox in this thread with links to scientific whitepapers:
http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7919

Didn't you say something about Habanos using a blast freezer as of like 4-5 years ago? I'm guessing that would negate the chances of beetles by 95%+?

Either way it's the summer so I moved my coolidor into the corner of the basement.

[T.G]

Didn't you say something about Habanos using a blast freezer as of like 4-5 years ago? I'm guessing that would negate the chances of beetles by 95%+?

Either way it's the summer so I moved my coolidor into the corner of the basement.

Habanos went from fumigation to blast freezing sometime around 2005, and, yes, it could have been me, or any number of other individuals, who mentioned it in one of our discussions, as it's fairly well known info.

The effectiveness of blast freezing has proven to be very high, so long as all of the cigars being frozen are allowed to drop to the needed temps for the required times.

One of the things to keep in mind though, is that it is possible for the cigars to be re-exposed post treatment. Blast freezing, just as fumigation used to (when it worked), only kills what is there at the time. Exposure and infection at a later date is still possible.

[Bill86]

Good point, I got my cigars in the basement for the summer. 65/65 right now.

[HollywoodQue]

Good point, I got my cigars in the basement for the summer. 65/65 right now.

Good idea Bill, I will do the same before tempts start to rise in Detroit.

[emopunker2004]

sheeeeeeeet we ain't got no stinkin basements, I'm in Florida yo.

[md4958]

Not exactly. Are you thinking of mold possibly? As mold spores are everywhere in the air and high humidity will cause mold to go bonkers.

Every leaf has the potential for eggs, but rarely is such the case. Not to mention, besides all the steps taken at the factories to prevent beetles getting into the cured leaves (they wouldn't survive the fermentation temps) many manufacturers and some large retailers also blast freeze their cigars for a further layer of protection.

The eggs can hatch at any temperature above about 64F and 50RH although prolonged exposure (a few weeks) to that temperature will kill the eggs. Larvae won't even develop at less than 62F. Once you start getting close to 70F, you're into the risk zone and the beetles have to fly to mate and they won't form wings at temps less than 71.5F, so over that, and you can start perpetuating multiple generations of the lil' bastards.

:tpd:

Adam's wicked smaat!! And that Silverfox article is great reading.

[wayner123]

I agree with most everything you wrote except this:

Once you start getting close to 70F, you're into the risk zone and the beetles have to fly to mate and they won't form wings at temps less than 71.5F, so over that, and you can start perpetuating multiple generations of the lil' bastards.


The article here:http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1399-5448.2002.02019.x/abstract;jsessionid=71E9C6303EA5F76F888A529BEE4A4D 6A.d03t02

Shows them flying at 13C (55.4F). You and I have had this discussion before. I would greatly appreciate the article you cite for the temp of 71.5F. The article I linked shows a constant temp of 13C.


Just as a bonus, here is a good looking pdf on the subject of beetles: http://www.smcs.se/Meet%20the%20beetles,%20by%20Frank%20Seltzer%20-%20Cigar%20Magazine%20summer%202008.pdf

Mind you, it's from cigar magazine. So take it for what it's worth.

[guitar4001]

Usually it's 75 that you need to start worrying. I went into a local Tinderbox over the weekend and walked into the store and thought it was a bit hot. As I walked into their walk-in it was down right blazing. After walking around a bit the guy working at the store asked if I needed any help and I replied "Just looking thanks." He proceeded to try and inform me of what I should be smoking so I cut him off and mentioned how hot it was in the humidor. He proceeded to tell me that the humidity and the temperature need to marry at 80. So me being a wise @ss and already annoyed that he was trying to tell me what to smoke without even asking what type of cigars I enjoy and basically talking down to me the whole time said "So you don't think 80 percent is too high?" He proceeded to tell me that this is where the temp and humidity should marry. (Sheesh this guy loves to use the word marry when describing humidity and temperature) I decided to play with him some more since clueless people intrigue me and replied with "So beetles being able to hatch above 75 degrees doesn't worry you? I can tell at this point I annoyed him enough and he responded with "Well, we haven't had any beetles hatch on us yet." At this point I think I pissed him off enough that he decided to leave me alone. I did pick up a La Sirena as I have been wanting to try these but being it was like a sponge it will be spending a few weeks out of the humidor to dry out and no where near my cabinet as the temps in their humidor have me a little nervous about ever introducing anything from them in with my stash. I do chat with the manager there from time to time and I saw him yesterday and mentioned it being a bit hot in the humidor and his only response was, "Yeah it's a little humid in there today" This was kind of surprising to me to see how hot and humid it was in there especially since this is their flagship store for Charlotte. The temp gauge on my truck read 77 out in the parking garage which their store leads into and walking out into the garage felt like I just had walked into an air conditioned room compared to their store. It was that bad.

The local cigar humidor here in Leavenworth, KS is a suprisingly well-stocked walk-in in a convienience store, BUT...the one and only time that I dropped in the humidor I thought that I had walked into the jungles of the Congo. It was easily over 80 degrees and maybe even a bit hotter. The humidity was so high that you could see mist wafting through the air. My wife and I were visibly wet when we left the humidor. I have NEVER seen anything like this before.

Oh, and we saw several boxes with mold. In one instance, mold completely covered the cigars displayed in one box. Maybe if I am feeling up to it, I will go in there with a camera and document the poor state of this humidor. Hopefully, they have changed their humidification process.

[md4958]

Oh, and we saw several boxes with mold. .

In a B&M thats "plume", if you had asked the staff they would have explained that to you. Everywhere else its mold, but at a B&M its very desirable :rolleyes:

It still amazes me that there are people that own/run cigar shops that have absolutely no clue as to how to store their merchandise.

[wayner123]

In a B&M thats "plume", if you had asked the staff they would have explained that to you. Everywhere else its mold, but at a B&M its very desirable :rolleyes:

It still amazes me that there are people that own/run cigar shops that have absolutely no clue as to how to store their merchandise.

While I agree with you, I doubt you have people opening your humidor, coolidor, etc all day long. I think that some shops which have high humidity are trying to combat the fluctuations. However, they are going about it in the wrong way, imo.

[jonumberone]

I think that some shops which have high humidity are trying to combat the fluctuations. However, they are going about it in the wrong way, imo.

Had this discussion with Kevin from Winston humidors on Saturday.
He said he keeps his humidor at home in the 63 range, but in the shop he keeps it higher to make the sticks more durable.
He explained that people are constantly coming in and squeezing the sticks and dropping them and the higher RH saves him from losing his stock to busted wrappers.
It made sense to me from a business stand point.

[T.G]

I agree with most everything you wrote except s:




The article here:http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1399-5448.2002.02019.x/abstract;jsessionid=71E9C6303EA5F76F888A529BEE4A4D 6A.d03t02

Shows them flying at 13C (55.4F). You and I have had this discussion before. I would greatly appreciate the article you cite for the temp of 71.5F. The article I linked shows a constant temp of 13C.


Just as a bonus, here is a good looking pdf on the subject of beetles: http://www.smcs.se/Meet%20the%20beetles,%20by%20Frank%20Seltzer%20-%20Cigar%20Magazine%20summer%202008.pdf

Mind you, it's from cigar magazine. So take it for what it's worth.

I don't actually recall having this conversation with you before.

It appears that you missed the key word "form" - this is something that happens during chrysalis from a larvae to an adult. Not that a fully formed adult can't fly in colder temps. And of course, there are always exceptions.

You also should try reading the PDF from Cigar Magazine that you linked to before you attempt to wave it around.

Look at page 3 under "Temperature is Key" :r:r:r

[md4958]

I agree with most everything you wrote except this:




The article here:http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1399-5448.2002.02019.x/abstract;jsessionid=71E9C6303EA5F76F888A529BEE4A4D 6A.d03t02

Shows them flying at 13C (55.4F). You and I have had this discussion before. I would greatly appreciate the article you cite for the temp of 71.5F. The article I linked shows a constant temp of 13C.


Just as a bonus, here is a good looking pdf on the subject of beetles: http://www.smcs.se/Meet%20the%20beetles,%20by%20Frank%20Seltzer%20-%20Cigar%20Magazine%20summer%202008.pdf

Mind you, it's from cigar magazine. So take it for what it's worth.

Wayne, in that PDF you cited, under "Temprature is the Key" it states exactly what Adam had said earlier about the temprature at which they fly. Which you disagreed with (quoted below):confused:

Once you start getting close to 70F, you're into the risk zone and the beetles have to fly to mate and they won't form wings at temps less than 71.5F, so over that, and you can start perpetuating multiple generations of the lil' bastards.

While I agree with you, I doubt you have people opening your humidor, coolidor, etc all day long. I think that some shops which have high humidity are trying to combat the fluctuations. However, they are going about it in the wrong way, imo.

My point was more towards temperature than RH%, but to your point I understand fluctuations from the door being constantly opened, but why does it have to be like a tropical green house in there, with condensation dripping down the windows?

And why is it so goddamn hot in there?!?!?

[md4958]

Had this discussion with Kevin from Winston humidors on Saturday.
He said he keeps his humidor at home in the 63 range, but in the shop he keeps it higher to make the sticks more durable.
He explained that people are constantly coming in and squeezing the sticks and dropping them and the higher RH saves him from losing his stock to busted wrappers.
It made sense to me from a business stand point.

That makes sense Dom, I can see them keeping it a bit higher than I do at home. But did Kevin express any concern about loosing stock from being over-run with mold? Sorry, "plume".

[jonumberone]

That makes sense Dom, I can see them keeping it a bit higher than I do at home. But did Kevin express any concern about loosing stock from being over-run with mold? Sorry, "plume".

The topic came up when we were discussing beads so it didn't head in that direction. IIRC he said he keeps the shop at 68. I had 2 sticks out of the Humi that day, neither was plugged or plagued with relights, but the burn on both was wavy.

[md4958]

The topic came up when we were discussing beads so it didn't head in that direction. IIRC he said he keeps the shop at 68. I had 2 sticks out of the Humi that day, neither was plugged or plagued with relights, but the burn on both was wavy.

I would consider 68% to be on the low side of what most of these places generally keep their humidity at. Kudos to Kevin for that.

[Boss Hogg]

In a B&M thats "plume", if you had asked the staff they would have explained that to you. Everywhere else its mold, but at a B&M its very desirable :rolleyes:

It still amazes me that there are people that own/run cigar shops that have absolutely no clue as to how to store their merchandise.

:lr this is so true it is pathetic.

[hammondc]

This was kind of surprising to me to see how hot and humid it was in there especially since this is their flagship store for Charlotte. The temp gauge on my truck read 77 out in the parking garage which their store leads into and walking out into the garage felt like I just had walked into an air conditioned room compared to their store. It was that bad.

Must have been Southpark. I hate that store. 100% of the employees there are jerks. Especially the one with the initials. C.C. Hell, his last name rhymes with 'ass'.

I would almost bet you a fiver that they were trying to sell you Davidoff.

[guitar4001]

Had this discussion with Kevin from Winston humidors on Saturday.
He said he keeps his humidor at home in the 63 range, but in the shop he keeps it higher to make the sticks more durable.
He explained that people are constantly coming in and squeezing the sticks and dropping them and the higher RH saves him from losing his stock to busted wrappers.
It made sense to me from a business stand point.

Alot of guys on the boards believe that places like JR's and Holt's mail their cigars a little "wet" because the time in transit could otherwise dry out the cigars. This got me thinking that maybe a wetter cigar holds out better in transit and retail shelves like you stated above. I dunno if that is true, but it makes sense to me. Also, it is a convienient excuse for a shop with higher than normal humidity.

[craiggory]

I've read that the factories put their cigars in a vacuum vault to crush the beetle eggs in new cigars before they ship them out. Anybody know if this is true?

[T.G]

I've read that the factories put their cigars in a vacuum vault to crush the beetle eggs in new cigars before they ship them out. Anybody know if this is true?

I can't say for certain that such a system does not exist, or was not tried at some point in the past, but I've been to a number of factories and I've neither seen, nor heard of, any apparatus fitting that description.

I'm thinking that what they might have been talking about was the aforementioned blast freezing process where a freezer room is stacked, then brought down to extreme sub-zero temperatures very rapidly and held there for a few days. The eggs that aren't shattered by the rapid temperature drop and freezing should be rendered non-viable by the long period of sub-zero temperatures.

[N2 GOLD]

All bugs SUCK, big time... :2

[wayner123]

I don't actually recall having this conversation with you before.

It appears that you missed the key word "form" - this is something that happens during chrysalis from a larvae to an adult. Not that a fully formed adult can't fly in colder temps. And of course, there are always exceptions.

You also should try reading the PDF from Cigar Magazine that you linked to before you attempt to wave it around.

Look at page 3 under "Temperature is Key" :r:r:r

You can see the previous discussion here: http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1083303&highlight=japan*#post1083303

But that aside, you've covered yourself by saying, there are always exceptions. And that might be what's going on. The life cycle points out "Pupation takes from one to three weeks and after emerging the adults live from one to four weeks." So there could be some overlap but middle of Oct. temps were still below 71.5.

I did find another article though that shows if less than 18C (64.4F) temps are maintained the reproductive cycle can be blocked. http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17686632 But that was from eggs dying, not wing formation.

Wayne, in that PDF you cited, under "Temprature is the Key" it states exactly what Adam had said earlier about the temprature at which they fly. Which you disagreed with (quoted below):confused:


The pdf I linked to was simply a nice write-up on beetles in general. I put the disclaimer that it's from cigar magazine, so take it for what it's worth. The author does refer to names but there are no specific sources cited for the material he is referencing. I had to look up through journals what he was referencing. Mueller (whom I assume is David K Mueller of insectslimited) is trying to promote his own line of products. So again, take that for what you will. It also seemed that T.G was quoting from that article, so I posted the link.

I still cannot find Mueller's research that shows that wing formation stops at 70F. Unless this was some sort of personal conversation between the article's author and Mueller. in which case I won't find it. I did however, find that at 20C (68F) eggs still hatched. In my own geeky way I would like to read the article on wing development.

This is most likely the journal that will have that information if any of them do: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=2606196

Any of you college kids have access to this journal??

[shilala]

Just to touch on the 80/80 statement...
Aside from the obvious beetle problem, mold starts growing (for intents and purposes) at 80%RH. The marry guy is borderline ready to grow mushrooms in that walk-in. It shouldn't even be called a walk-in, it should be called a run-away.

[craiggory]

I can't say for certain that such a system does not exist, or was not tried at some point in the past, but I've been to a number of factories and I've neither seen, nor heard of, any apparatus fitting that description.

I'm thinking that what they might have been talking about was the aforementioned blast freezing process where a freezer room is stacked, then brought down to extreme sub-zero temperatures very rapidly and held there for a few days. The eggs that aren't shattered by the rapid temperature drop and freezing should be rendered non-viable by the long period of sub-zero temperatures.

Thanks for the quick reply. What you say makes sense. I read about it in Ted Gage's The Complete Idiot's Guide to Cigars, but I totally could had misunderstood what he was talking about.

[Nathan King]

Thanks for the quick reply. What you say makes sense. I read about it in Ted Gage's The Complete Idiot's Guide to Cigars, but I totally could had misunderstood what he was talking about.

You didn't misread the book. Mr. Gage does indeed make the claim that vacuum chambers are used to eradicate beetles. I have never seen this substantiated.

[wayner123]

I've read that the factories put their cigars in a vacuum vault to crush the beetle eggs in new cigars before they ship them out. Anybody know if this is true?

You didn't misread the book. Mr. Gage does indeed make the claim that vacuum chambers are used to eradicate beetles. I have never seen this substantiated.

I haven't read what Mr. Gage wrote, but he probably meant a vacuum chamber with low pressure to kill the beetles. Not to crush them by force. Here is an article on that process:

http://www.ftic.info/pdf/EEC.pdf

Here is what the device Grainpro Cocoon (one of the methods used in the study) had to say happens:

GrainPro Cocoons™ are airtight (hermetic), unsupported rectangular structures made of lightweight UV resistant PVC. The simple two-piece Cocoon consists of a top cover and bottom floor piece joined together with a PVC tongue-&-groove zipper similar to those used to close environmental safety suits. Insects trapped in the bagged grain expire in a matter of days as a result of an increase in carbon dioxide and reduction of oxygen.

[craiggory]

I took a quick peek in the book again and that is indeed the system he was referring to.

[wayner123]

I took a quick peek in the book again and that is indeed the system he was referring to.

It's different ways of going about the same results. The eradication of the beetles. One uses freezing and one uses CO2 and heat. It would be interesting to know which marca's use which method, as I wonder if either has an impact on flavor or aging.

[xlc12rf]

You can see the previous discussion here:

Any of you college kids have access to this journal??

Sorry, itll still cost me $45. I tried, though.

[Cornrow_Wallis]

Bleh, just found a beetle hole in a tat brown label I brought home two days ago. Just one, but it looks like someone took a thumbtack and stuck it into the wrapper.

I guess I'll smoke it tomorrow and see if I can taste insect. :(

[jjirons69]

For years I didn't worry about bugs, kind of thought of them as other people's problems. After a couple small meetings with them, I now am converted. I freeze every box, gifted, or loose cigar that joins my collection for 3 days at -10F. It's an ounce of prevention.