RH Question

[Tyler]

I am new here and will head to the introduction section after this post. I had a question though...er multiple questions.

I recently purchased a digital round Xikar hygrometer from my local B&M. I did the salt test in a mason jar with a half shot glass full of salt and dampened it with water. I let it sit for roughly 10 hours (I was a little late on getting to it) and it read 79% 66F. My question is does the temperature make a difference? I had been directed to a website which had the different RH levels for different temperatures for it to equal the same conditions as 70% 70F. Link is here (http://www.bonitasmokeshop.com/cigar_humidor_information_daniel.htm). It states that at 66F a RH of 80% would be equivalent to 70% 70F. Here is where I am confused as hell and maybe I am over thinking. Does the digital hygrometer take into account the temperature to determine the RH or is each independent? Furthermore, would the that make my Hygrometer +3% or because of the temperature is it less than that? I know the RH is supposed to be 75% in the salt test but if the water was over saturated would that make a difference as well?

I apologize for all of the questions but I recently found cbid and kind of just bought 175 cigars (and counting -(P) and I want to make sure that my hygrometer is accurate.

I also am thinking of doing a cooler-dor as my current humidor says it holds 200 cigars but the cigars I ordered are mostly 50+ ring gauge. I bought some KL to use instead of the beads and I know there is some debate over these. This is also another reason I want to know that my hygrometer is accurate is so that I can use the KL and be able to adjust to get the correct humidity.

Anyways, sorry to have a really long first post and I hope I didn't ask too many questions.

Maybe I am just over thinking.
:tf

[Cattani]

I don't have a freaking clue to the answer for your question, but wanted to say that is is a damn good question! I'll be checking back to this thread often.

[Bill86]

If it says 200, bet on 140-150 if that. 50+ ring gauge...probably less, 120-130? Not sure what KL is, but beads are great.

I wouldn't even worry about the hygrometer I just know my beads never fail. I only have a hygro so I know when to recharge my beads. It drops 5-ish points I recharge the beads.

[Nathan King]

Welcome to the Cigar Asylum!

You're overthinking things. Keep humidity between 62 and 70 regardless of temperature. It sounds like your hygrometer is simply +4. Your salt test was fine as long as you didn't have so much water that it was separated from the salt.

[icehog3]

Link is here (http://www.bonitasmokeshop.com/cigar_humidor_information_daniel.htm). It states that at 66F a RH of 80% would be equivalent to 70% 70F.

The temperature can have a small effect on RH, but 70% is 70%. If your hygrometer is properly calibrated and reads "70%", then the RH is 70% regardless of the temperature.

[Tyler]

If it says 200, bet on 140-150 if that. 50+ ring gauge...probably less, 120-130? Not sure what KL is, but beads are great.

I wouldn't even worry about the hygrometer I just know my beads never fail. I only have a hygro so I know when to recharge my beads. It drops 5-ish points I recharge the beads.

Sorry I forgot to spell it out instead of abbreviating. When I said KL I mean the Exquisicat fragrance free crystal kitty litter that is the same stuff as most of the beads I hear. It was $8 for 4lbs versus $10 a pound for the beads at the local B&Ms and places that I can find. I thought I would give it a shot though as I have heard of guys having great success with it.

[pnoon]

Sorry I forgot to spell it out instead of abbreviating. When I said KL I mean the Exquisicat fragrance free crystal kitty litter that is the same stuff as most of the beads I hear. It was $8 for 4lbs versus $10 a pound for the beads at the local B&Ms and places that I can find. I thought I would give it a shot though as I have heard of guys having great success with it.

Some claim to have success with KL. I cannot argue or dispute their success. But KL is not the same as the beads sold for cigar humidification. Personally, I would not risk my cigar investment using KL. :2

[T.G]

Some claim to have success with KL. I cannot argue or dispute their success. But KL is not the same as the beads sold for cigar humidification. Personally, I would not risk my cigar investment using KL. :2

Crap. I better change fluffy's litterbox media. No wonder she always has that funny look of "I'm going to murder you in your sleep for using cigar beads in here" after she goes pee.

[Bill86]

I'm with Pnoon, there's also the fact that I don't want anything that I smoke or ingest near kitty litter. That and If I leave open my coolidor perhaps my cats could get the wrong impression. You do or are going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your cigars why would you skimp on the care for them? I'd spend the extra $20-$60 (depending on your humidor size) to ensure my cigars were properly maintained.

[Bill86]

Crap. I better change fluffy's litterbox media. No wonder she always has that funny look of "I'm going to murder you in your sleep for using cigar beads in here" after she goes pee.

:lr :lr :lr :lr

[icehog3]

Some claim to have success with KL. I cannot argue or dispute their success. But KL is not the same as the beads sold for cigar humidification. Personally, I would not risk my cigar investment using KL. :2

Yes....and yes. Why skimp on beads (less than $100 for a cabinet) when protecting potentially thousands of dollars worth of cigars?

EDIT: Bill beat me to it. ;)

[Tyler]

http://www.petworldshop.com/pictures/crystals-cat-litter.jpg

Here is a picture of the thing of KL. Mine is a little different on the front but same stuff. Fragrance free. The cat is not amused though.

[icehog3]

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa73/icehog3/borat-232x300.jpg

[Tyler]

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa73/icehog3/borat-232x300.jpg


:sl :r

[T.G]

On a serious note, I'm storing thousands of dollars worth of cigars, I'm not going to put that kind of investment at risk by trying to save a few bucks by purchasing something designed to soak up cat urine rather than something that is designed to regulate a set humidity and has been used to great success at that for decades (by museums for artifact preservation). :2

----
Edit - Looks like Tom beat me to it.

[T.G]

BTW - I did experiment with KL at one point in a smaller storage area with some low cost cigars (stuff that you get for like $9 a bundle of 25 on cbid) just for my own curiosity. Very irregular, lots of humidity spikes and dips. It seemed that it did buffer the humidity, but it didn't regulate it. There is a significant difference between the two.

That was my experience with it.

[Tyler]

I will try the KL and if it starts acting funny I will order some beads. I just am pretty poor right now and put in a lot of bids and did not think I would win at such low prices but low and behold I did. Now I am stuck with all of these cigars :sh :ss. I suppose I can always stick the crap cigars in with the KL and then use my old beads (that have been keeping the tupperdors regulated) in with the Gurkha's, Nub's, and Cain Nubs. I chose weekly shipping to save money so they won't ship until after this coming Wednesday. I still have a while to figure things out. By the way would a old mini fridge work as a fridge-idor?

[Bill86]

I'm thinking we would need more information on your minifridge. Throw up a picture. Was it used for food? Or just beverages?

[T.G]

By the way would a old mini fridge work as a fridge-idor?

If you planning on plugging it in and running it - maybe. Depends on the design.
Just filling it with cigars and leaving it unplugged? - Sure. Just an insulated, nearly airtight box at that point.

[Tyler]

It was used for anything and everything but has not been used in 6 months. I thought it was in the garage but it might have been thrown out or back at my house at school. I guess I should just buy a cooler for a cooler-dor and then buy some beads.

[pnoon]

It was used for anything and everything but has not been used in 6 months. I thought it was in the garage but it might have been thrown out or back at my house at school. I guess I should just buy a cooler for a cooler-dor and then buy some beads.

:tu

[T.G]

It was used for anything and everything but has not been used in 6 months. I thought it was in the garage but it might have been thrown out or back at my house at school. I guess I should just buy a cooler for a cooler-dor and then buy some beads.

Yup, $15 and you'll get more space, and it won't smell like the last plate of leftovers that were forgotten in there for two weeks.


"Wow. This Szechuan chicken infused cigar really sucks ass. Although the pepperoni pizza aromatic one I had last night wasn't bad..."

[Tyler]

Where can they be had for $15? The only ones I have seen are like $40+. Also, where can I buy the beads from?

*EDIT* Which of these would work best? There is an academy right down the road from here.

http://www.academy.com/index.php?page=content&target=products/outdoors/camping/hard_side_coolers&start=0&selectedSKU=0222-00660-0384

http://www.academy.com/index.php?page=content&target=products/outdoors/camping/hard_side_coolers&start=0&selectedSKU=0222-01260-0001

http://www.academy.com/index.php?page=content&target=products/outdoors/camping/hard_side_coolers&start=8&selectedSKU=0222-01260-6783

[pnoon]

Where can they be had for $15? The only ones I have seen are like $40+. Also, where can I buy the beads from?

*EDIT* Which of these would work best? There is an academy right down the road from here.

http://www.academy.com/index.php?page=content&target=products/outdoors/camping/hard_side_coolers&start=0&selectedSKU=0222-00660-0384

http://www.academy.com/index.php?page=content&target=products/outdoors/camping/hard_side_coolers&start=0&selectedSKU=0222-01260-0001

http://www.academy.com/index.php?page=content&target=products/outdoors/camping/hard_side_coolers&start=8&selectedSKU=0222-01260-6783

If you are on a tight budget, the Igloo 48qt will work just fine and provide plenty of storage (for now)

[T.G]

I have no direct experience with the Coleman coolers for cigar storage. You want one that doesn't reek of plastic - you can sometimes air this out easily enough though. It also should have a well sealing lid, it should close with a whoosh and at the last moments, slow dramatically as the air pressure buildup keeps it from slamming down.

[Tyler]

Thanks guys. I will go pick one out tomorrow. Do they require "seasoning" like a regular humidor?

[icehog3]

Thanks guys. I will go pick one out tomorrow. Do they require "seasoning" like a regular humidor?

Nope....add beads and you're ready to go. :tu

[Tyler]

Thanks fellas! Where can I order the beads from? I only have KL and then one tiny thing that has beads in it.

[T.G]

Thanks guys. I will go pick one out tomorrow. Do they require "seasoning" like a regular humidor?

Wash it out well with dish soap. If it reeks horribly of plastic, you should leave the lid open for a day or so, preferably in an area where some sunlight hits the cooler, to let it vent. Other than that, just add humidification and go.

[T.G]

Where can I order the beads from?

Heartfelt beads:
http://www.heartfeltindustries.com/products.asp?cat=65%25+Rh+Humidity+Beads

HCM (Shilala) beads:
http://www.hcmbeads.com/

[Tyler]

Those are pretty expensive. What about these? http://cgi.ebay.com/Humidity-Beads-70-Rh-half-pound-bag-Cigar-Humidor-/120570482213?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c128f8e25

[T.G]

Those are pretty expensive. What about these? http://cgi.ebay.com/Humidity-Beads-70-Rh-half-pound-bag-Cigar-Humidor-/120570482213?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c128f8e25

Those are kitty litter - very expensive KL at that.

From the auction description:

For sale 8 ounces of generic *70% Rh Humidity Beads. (Crystal Clear Litter Pearls)


Also, look at the enlarged photos of the item - notice how the beads are all different sizes? That's Exquisicat.

[Tyler]

Lol well thanks I almost wasted my money.

[bobarian]

A half pound of beads is enough for a 48qt cooler. Get a pair of ankle high stockings at the supermarket for a couple of dollars, and put half the beads in each. I prefer the 65% Heartfelt beads as my cigars seem to smoke better at a bit lower Rh.

Many use KL with success, but the problem is that they are not set to a specific Rh. This will lead to spikes in Rh as Adam said. KL works well if you live in an area with high humidity and can be used in the summer to absorb the extra moisture.

If there is a shop near you, try and pick up a few empty boxes to put your singles inside. The extra wood will help keep the Rh more stable.

[Tyler]

A half pound of beads is enough for a 48qt cooler. Get a pair of ankle high stockings at the supermarket for a couple of dollars, and put half the beads in each. I prefer the 65% Heartfelt beads as my cigars seem to smoke better at a bit lower Rh.

Many use KL with success, but the problem is that they are not set to a specific Rh. This will lead to spikes in Rh as Adam said. KL works well if you live in an area with high humidity and can be used in the summer to absorb the extra moisture.

If there is a shop near you, try and pick up a few empty boxes to put your singles inside. The extra wood will help keep the Rh more stable.

Should I take the blue crystals out or leave them in? Also, do I lay the stockings with the beads in them directly on the wood or in a tupperware dish or something so it doesn't touch the wood directly?

[bobarian]

Should I take the blue crystals out or leave them in? Also, do I lay the stockings with the beads in them directly on the wood or in a tupperware dish or something so it doesn't touch the wood directly?

You can leave them in until you get your Rh beads. I use a spray bottle to moisten my beads(only moisten about 2/3 of the beads), I just spray through the stockings. You can put them in a little plastic container with the lid off so they dont get the boxes wet.

[Tyler]

You can leave them in until you get your Rh beads. I use a spray bottle to moisten my beads(only moisten about 2/3 of the beads), I just spray through the stockings. You can put them in a little plastic container with the lid off so they dont get the boxes wet.

I don't know if I can pay $50 for beads right now though. I guess this will have to do for now I hope I don't mess them up.

[bobarian]

I don't know if I can pay $50 for beads right now though. I guess this will have to do for now I hope I don't mess them up.

1/2 pound of Hearfelt beads runs $18.14? http://heartfeltindustries.com/products.asp?cat=65%25+Rh+Humidity+Beads

[Tyler]

1/2 pound of Hearfelt beads runs $18.14? http://heartfeltindustries.com/products.asp?cat=65%25+Rh+Humidity+Beads

Oh I guess I miss read. ;s haha I may have to place an order soon.

[justonemorestick]

I have been having good luck with the KL but I do prefer my cigars in the mid to low 60s.

[T.G]

I have been having good luck with the KL but I do prefer my cigars in the mid to low 60s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y

[Volusianator]

do I lay the stockings with the beads in them directly on the wood or in a tupperware dish or something so it doesn't touch the wood directly?

If you're using a Tupperware container for your beads, you really don't need a nylon. Simply lay the beads in the container (the most surface area possible the better) then moisten your beads as you wish. Without a nylon, it's easier to see what % of beads are moist/dry.

[Bill86]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y

WTH?????

:r :r :r

[T.G]

WTH?????

:r :r :r

I thought one good non-sequitur deserved another. :sh

[Josh_Lucky_13]

Tyler KL works almost as well as beads for a fraction of the cost. In fact people who have problems with beads not maintaining RH normally switch over to KL. Now beads are not the same as KL because KL is originally designed to be disposable and beads are not. As far as adjusting RH with KL if its too low spray(with a spray bottle) with more distilled. If RH to high add more KL. When I first heard about KL I thought it was a joke or practical joke. Once you try it spending $30.00 more per pound for nearly same effect sounds crazy. There is a draw back to KL tho. You typically need twice the amount of KL than you would use in beads. If you dont have that much room time to invest in another cooler and you wouldn't need to invest in more beads. I dont know why some hate the idea of KL as much as they do.

[pektel]

Kitty litter may work, but I feel better with a specialized product when trusting a $1000+ investment. $50 is cheap peace of mind to me. But I don't trust hygrometers either.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Bill86]

Tyler KL works almost as well as beads for a fraction of the cost. In fact people who have problems with beads not maintaining RH normally switch over to KL. Now beads are not the same as KL because KL is originally designed to be disposable and beads are not. As far as adjusting RH with KL if its too low spray(with a spray bottle) with more distilled. If RH to high add more KL. When I first heard about KL I thought it was a joke or practical joke. Once you try it spending $30.00 more per pound for nearly same effect sounds crazy. There is a draw back to KL tho. You typically need twice the amount of KL than you would use in beads. If you dont have that much room time to invest in another cooler and you wouldn't need to invest in more beads. I dont know why some hate the idea of KL as much as they do.

In general "we", including myself, hate KL because it's probably not the best idea to go cheap on controlling the humidity of thousands of dollars worth of cigars. Everyone doesn't have a problem spending hundreds and hundreds or even thousands and thousands of dollars on cigars but when it comes down to maintaining them and you need like $60-$90 bucks worth of beads for 1,000 or so cigars.....why go cheap now?

1,000 cigars cost what at least $2,500. So for every $2,500 you spend you need like $60 bucks worth of beads. This seems perfectly reasonable to everyone except a few that use KL.

I've never heard anyone switching from beads to kitty liter.

Also I don't want my cat to get any ideas when I open my coolidor.

[Josh_Lucky_13]

So do you buy Royal Purple motor oil for you car? This is said to be the best oil out there? Your car is most likely worth more than a couple grand right?

[Bill86]

So do you buy Royal Purple motor oil for you car? This is said to be the best oil out there? Your car is most likely worth more than a couple grand right?

No my car is a Nissan lease vehicle, they take care of everything for me.

You're comparing oil to oil and something a cat sh!ts in to something made for cigar humidity.

The two have nothing in common.

[icehog3]

The kitty litter debate has been done ad naseum here, Josh. I disagree that KL subtracts and adds humidity with the same effectiveness as beads, but there is a small minority that diasgree with that, so we can just agree to disagree. I will echo Bill's sentiments and say I won't go cheap when it comes to protecting an investment of $1000s of dollars worth of cigars.

[icehog3]

So do you buy Royal Purple motor oil for you car? This is said to be the best oil out there? Your car is most likely worth more than a couple grand right?

Maybe Royal Purple has some scientific testing to back up that claim? I wouldn't know, but I am doubting the KL people have any regarding cigar humidification.

[md4958]

So do you buy Royal Purple motor oil for you car? This is said to be the best oil out there? Your car is most likely worth more than a couple grand right?

I use Mobil1, and Shilala beads :tu

[Devanmc]

So do you buy Royal Purple motor oil for you car? This is said to be the best oil out there? Your car is most likely worth more than a couple grand right?

no we are arguing this...

we use beads(of various brands) to maintain out cigars, some agrue to use KL(which is for cat piss and poop). which can work but is for a completely different application...

now sure royal purple is the "best" but it is still motor oil. I dont use vegetable oil in my car cuz its cheap and still a type of oil. i use my own preferred brand of motor oil(i use mobil1 synthetic) Cuz its designed for its use...

[Bill86]

I use Mobil1, and Shilala beads :tu

The beads are for your car though right? and you use the mobil for the humidor correct? :r :r :r

[Josh_Lucky_13]

No my car is a Nissan lease vehicle, they take care of the everything for me.

You're comparing oil to oil and something a cat sh!ts in to something made for cigar humidity.

The two have nothing in common.

No what I am trying to do is compare oil to silica beads. Now cheap gas station $0.99 oil does not stand up to $10 royal purple. Yet they both work! The difference between your beads and my KL is virtually the same except for some minor differences. http://talasonline.com/photos/instructions/silica_gel_info.pdf

Beads where not made for cigars. Neither was KL. Now the biggest difference between the 2 I can tell is beads are high density and regular density KL(why you should use twice as much KL than beads). They both absorb moisture and can maintain RH. It is the moisture absorbency property that led to the development of Silica into KL. Now if you did any research most cats do not react positively to silica KL in fact many cats have to be trained to use this over the clay litter out there. So you point of worried your cat will pee on your sticks is pointless.

Coolers in fact where not meant for cigar storage but many use it and it works well. Should everyone dump their coolers full of sticks and all buy a Waxing Moon Humidor since that is acceptable cigar storage? If you dont like KL that is fine, if you use a humidor over a cooler or vice versa that is fine but the way some of you talk about another method seems closed mined and a little off. If you think your sticks are so valuable that only the best will do then I am all for it and Ed make great humidors. KL works as good for RH as a cooler does for cigar storage. They both save $$ to buy more sticks.

[md4958]

The beads are for your car though right? and you use the mobil for the humidor correct? :r :r :r

I use both in my cabinet and ONLY the Mobil1 in my desktop.

I find the Mobil1 accelerates the accumulation of Plume and cigar beetles dont seem to like it. It also aids in combustion.

[Devanmc]

No what I am trying to do is compare oil to silica beads. Now cheap gas station $0.99 oil does not stand up to $10 royal purple. Yet they both work! The difference between your beads and my KL is virtually the same except for some minor differences. http://talasonline.com/photos/instructions/silica_gel_info.pdf

Beads where not made for cigars. Neither was KL. Now the biggest difference between the 2 I can tell is beads are high density and regular density KL(why you should use twice as much KL than beads). They both absorb moisture and can maintain RH. It is the moisture absorbency property that led to the development of Silica into KL. Now if you did any research most cats do not react positively to silica KL in fact many cats have to be trained to use this over the clay litter out there. So you point of worried your cat will pee on your sticks is pointless.

Coolers in fact where not meant for cigar storage but many use it and it works well. Should everyone dump their coolers full of sticks and all buy a Waxing Moon Humidor since that is acceptable cigar storage? If you dont like KL that is fine, if you use a humidor over a cooler or vice versa that is fine but the way some of you talk about another method seems closed mined and a little off. If you think your sticks are so valuable that only the best will do then I am all for it and Ed make great humidors. KL works as good for RH as a cooler does for cigar storage. They both save $$ to buy more sticks.


Im to lazy to actually respond to what is making me feel _____...but

the beads we use were in fact made specifically for RH control. KL was not made for that. So comparing motor oil to motor oil and a cats toilet to humidification beads doesnt work... :tu

Sure they may be able to accomplish the same thing but also might olive oil in my engine. Im definitely not going to risk possible problems though. Its just not worth it when in the big picture there is a solution that is ment for the exact job i need for cheap

[md4958]

No what I am trying to do is compare oil to silica beads.

I dont use Silica beads, mine are made of clay. Maybe the inventor (a member here) can chime in one if he invented them for cigars or had other uses in mind.

[icehog3]

The difference between your beads and my KL is virtually the same except for some minor differences.

Opinions vary, Josh. ;)

[Bill86]

I'm thinking Shilala's beads were definitely made for cigars. One thing I know for sure is....they weren't made for a cat to sh!t in.

I think your missing the point, heartfelt and shilala beads are made solely for cigars. KL is made for cats to sh!t in. What would you trust with thousands of dollars? In the big picture the cost is VERY minimal.

As far as coolers vs desktops, lets not get off topic. I have both for the record.


EDIT maybe you got bad results from using the wrong humidity beads. You should try heartfelt or Shilala's beads.

[icehog3]

They both absorb moisture and can maintain RH.

The beads can also emit humidity, not just absorb it. That is crucial during the winter months with a forced-air furnace in much of the U.S..

[Josh_Lucky_13]

I'm thinking Shilala's beads were definitely made for cigars. One thing I know for sure is....they weren't made for a cat to sh!t in.

I think your missing the point, heartfelt and shilala beads are made solely for cigars. KL is made for cats to sh!t in. What would you trust with thousands of dollars? In the big picture the cost is VERY minimal.

As far as coolers vs desktops, lets not get off topic. I have both for the record.

So you skimp on one but dont the other? Coolers are not made for cigar storage????? flawed logic or close mindedness?

[md4958]

Josh, in your introductory post you mention that youve only been into cigars for a few months now. Yet you are preaching to members here that have decades of experience (not me mind you), that your method is an appropriate substitute. Perhaps you should consider a bit more experience under your belt before making statements like that to people who know better.

We were all newbies at one time, but some of us had the humility to know we didnt know everything. Just sayin...:2

[Bill86]

So you skimp on one but dont the other? Coolers are not made for cigar storage????? flawed logic or close mindedness?

I'm really trying to be more informative then argumentative. However I'll play your game for a bit.

This topic is about RH and controlling it though not humidors. I don't see why you keep trying to take this off topic.


Humidors have always been made of different materials. Google it. People use walk ins, wooden boxes, they were copper at one point. Vinotemps are also another choice.

I'll tell you what I don't use for a humidor, a litter box. Maybe I should though and not be close minded. I think though for me and my 3 cats they might use my humidor with it's "beads" for another purpose.

Again though my cigars at kept at 64/65 in otherwords the perfect humidity and temperature. So how exactly am I skimping?

[Devanmc]

Josh, in your introductory post you mention that youve only been into cigars for a few months now. Yet you are preaching to members here that have decades of experience (not me mind you), that your method is an appropriate substitute. Perhaps you should consider a bit more experience under your belt before making statements like that to people who know better.

We were all newbies at one time, but some of us had the humility to know we didnt know everything. Just sayin...:2

:tpd: :rolleyes:

[chippewastud79]

Nothing like bumping a thread, with your first post, after a few months to start talking kitty litter for humidity over proven products that many people use.


Can anyone find Shilala's tests with Heartfelt vs. HCM vs. Kitty Litter?

If I recall, his tests, which are far more in depth than anyone else has probably ever done, he found that not only do they not regulate humidity well, fluctuations are very common and they have no pre-set humidity. Also I believe that the volume needed to be remotely effective was well over 3 times as much. :hm

[Josh_Lucky_13]

Tom pure KL with distilled water maintains RH all by itself. I will admit to my not believing it either but I did some basic test runs before I committed to it. I didnt just start talking crap about it.

[md4958]

Im more of a dog person myself.

[md4958]

Tom pure KL with distilled water maintains RH all by itself. I will admit to my not believing it either but I did some basic test runs before I committed to it. I didnt just start talking crap about it.


You know what Josh, you wanna use kitty litter, thats fine, knock yourself out. Just dont mooch.

[Bill86]

Im more of a dog person myself.

Really? Get a cat they grow on you. Started off with one and now there is 3. Much fun they are, low maintenance as well.

Tom pure KL with distilled water maintains RH all by itself. I will admit to my not believing it either but I did some basic test runs before I committed to it. I didnt just start talking crap about it.

Yeah have your tests been with KL Vs Heartfelt beads Vs Shilala's beads. Please test that.

Explain your testing please. What did you use besides KL?

[Devanmc]

straight from the site for shilala beads

Why Can’t I Just Use Kitty Litter?
In order to get the same humidity buffering benefit from kitty litter as from HCM beads, a person would need to use 9 to 14 pounds of kitty litter as compared to one pound of HCM beads. At $50 for a pound of HCM beads and $28 for 14 pounds of kitty litter, it appears at first to be a "value". The problem is, in order for the Kitty litter to work as well as one pound of HCM beads, it needs to be arranged so as to provide 910 square inches of surface area as opposed to 65 square inches of surface area for HCM beads. Are you willing to spare that kind of space in your humidor?

Even at that rate, the kitty litter is far slower reactively than are HCM beads. They can handle the buffering and provide the volume needed, but they take much longer to recover the RH of the conditioned space.

:sh

[md4958]

Nothing like bumping a thread, with your first post, after a few months to start talking kitty litter for humidity over proven products that many people use.


Can anyone find Shilala's tests with Heartfelt vs. HCM vs. Kitty Litter?

If I recall, his tests, which are far more in depth than anyone else has probably ever done, he found that not only do they not regulate humidity well, fluctuations are very common and they have no pre-set humidity. Also I believe that the volume needed to be remotely effective was well over 3 times as much. :hm

Really? Get a cat they grow on you. Started off with one and now there is 3. Much fun they are, low maintenance as well.



Yeah have your tests been with KL Vs Heartfelt beads Vs Shilala's beads. Please test that.

Explain your testing please. What did you use besides KL?


Lost cause gentlemen, just let it go.

Sorry Bill "Im more of a dog person" is Italian for "I hate cats" ;s

[Devanmc]

Sorry Bill "Im more of a dog person" is Italian for "I hate cats" ;s

ill just say it, i hate cats. anti-social, uselessness

[Josh_Lucky_13]

Josh, in your introductory post you mention that youve only been into cigars for a few months now. Yet you are preaching to members here that have decades of experience (not me mind you), that your method is an appropriate substitute. Perhaps you should consider a bit more experience under your belt before making statements like that to people who know better.

We were all newbies at one time, but some of us had the humility to know we didnt know everything. Just sayin...:2

Moe I am a noob and not trying to preach. However as I read this post and how people jumped all over the use of KL which the only thing they could really say is its just something to piss on, kind of annoys me a bit. These people are not using the best of everything out there for their hobby/lifestyle but claim beads are worth the cost. silica is silica for the most part I even explained some of the differences, yet this seems to be a rallying cry for all bead fans. Now I admit to have never used beads. To me does not seem worth it when for a little extra space I get something that works pretty keep like my Tupperdor. I am also not forcing anyone to read or to post to this but now this one thread is very busy which I find a little funny. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and use what they want to use, if someone wants to use beads that is their choice and their money if they want a cheaper alternative KL is there as well as floral foam humidifiers ( are those only for florists?) If asked I will mention KL as a humidification option to anyone since I trust it and it does work.

[Devanmc]

Moe I am a noob and not trying to preach. However as I read this post and how people jumped all over the use of KL which the only thing they could really say is its just something to piss on, kind of annoys me a bit. These people are not using the best of everything out there for their hobby/lifestyle but claim beads are worth the cost. silica is silica for the most part I even explained some of the differences, yet this seems to be a rallying cry for all bead fans. Now I admit to have never used beads. To me does not seem worth it when for a little extra space I get something that works pretty keep like my Tupperdor. I am also not forcing anyone to read or to post to this but now this one thread is very busy which I find a little funny. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and use what they want to use, if someone wants to use beads that is their choice and their money if they want a cheaper alternative KL is there as well as floral foam humidifiers ( are those only for florists?) If asked I will mention KL as a humidification option to anyone since I trust it and it does work.

you seem to have missed my post

[chippewastud79]

straight from the site for shilala beads



:sh

His original post with the testing process and full test results were much more in depth and explained why kitty litter is hardly an effective way to regulate humidity in a confined space because of volume and consistency. :hm

[Devanmc]

my google search didnt lead me to that, so i just used his FAQ

[icehog3]

Floral foam doesn't work as well either...except for attracting mold.

I would love to say "I'm done" here, but I doubt it.

[Devanmc]

Floral foam doesn't work as well either...except for attracting mold.

I would love to say "I'm done" here, but I doubt it.


im constantly having to deal with killing the mold out of the foam in my hydra! Deffinitly not thee best solution for its reservoir :td

[Josh_Lucky_13]

Sorry Devon didn't mean to leave you out there.

[Bill86]

Moe I am a noob and not trying to preach. However as I read this post and how people jumped all over the use of KL which the only thing they could really say is its just something to piss on, kind of annoys me a bit. These people are not using the best of everything out there for their hobby/lifestyle but claim beads are worth the cost. silica is silica for the most part I even explained some of the differences, yet this seems to be a rallying cry for all bead fans. Now I admit to have never used beads. To me does not seem worth it when for a little extra space I get something that works pretty keep like my Tupperdor. I am also not forcing anyone to read or to post to this but now this one thread is very busy which I find a little funny. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and use what they want to use, if someone wants to use beads that is their choice and their money if they want a cheaper alternative KL is there as well as floral foam humidifiers ( are those only for florists?) If asked I will mention KL as a humidification option to anyone since I trust it and it does work.

Alright this is my last post here because this is getting ridiculous.

Using the best of everything would exclude beads in general. The best MIGHT be a VERY large aristocrat with active humidification. So seeing as how I don't have about 10 grand to spend on a humidor and humidification....................

You gotta compromise, we only suggest that you still get a very well known and reliable humidification that is meant for cigars. Simple as that.

[NCRadioMan]

This is silly. Use what humidification media you want. As long you like the results, who cares? Jesus!

:sl

[icehog3]

This is silly. Use what humidification media you want. As long you like the results, who cares? Jesus!

:sl

I don't approve of religious humidification, Greg. :)

[Josh_Lucky_13]

If wine is good enough for Jesus who are we to argue?

[NCRadioMan]

I don't approve of religious humidification, Greg. :)

It makes cigars taste.........divine! :noon

[md4958]

I don't approve of religious humidification, Greg. :)

But it keeps everything so moist and supple.

[pektel]

If someone feels kl is appropriate, I say we let them use it. We can only lead a horse to water, as it were.
Posted via Mobile Device

[md4958]

:bdh:bdh:bdh:bdh

:bhd

[icehog3]

Let the name of Moses be stricken from every book and tablet, stricken from all pylons and obelisks, stricken from every monument of Egypt. Let the name of Moses be unheard and unspoken, erased from the memory of men for all time.

So it is written. So it shall be done.

[md4958]

Let the name of Moses be stricken from every book and tablet, stricken from all pylons and obelisks, stricken from every monument of Egypt. Let the name of Moses be unheard and unspoken, erased from the memory of men for all time.

So it is written. So it shall be done.

Must be nice to have Admin powers :r

[icehog3]

Must be nice to have Admin powers :r

I told you, Moe! I renounce my throne!! :r

[md4958]

I told you, Moe! I renounce my throne!! :r

That does it! If youre out, Im out too!

:lv

[icehog3]

That does it! If youre out, Im out too!

:lv

Let's start a cult.

[Devanmc]

Let's start a cult.

may i join? must I kill a goat? :r:r:r

[icehog3]

may i join? must I kill a goat? :r:r:r

No, this is Moe and I you are talking about.

You must marry a goat, and invite us on your honeymoon.

[md4958]

No, this is Moe and I you are talking about.

You must marry a goat, and invite us on your honeymoon.

I'll bring the video camera and the baby oil!! :banger

Gary and Bao HAVE to join.

[md4958]

You must marry a goat, and invite us on your honeymoon.

This isnt even the most ridiculous thing posted in this thread :r:r:r

[Bill86]

Wait, marry a goat I was going to do that anyways. Wow pretty easy to get in your cult. :r

[md4958]

Wait, marry a goat I was going to do that anyways. Wow pretty easy to get in your cult. :r

Tom became an ordained minister online, if we do it in Vegas we dont even have to wait for a marriage license.

[md4958]

Tyler (OP) sorry your thread went to chit brother.

;s

[Bill86]

Tom became an ordained minister online, if we do it in Vegas we dont even have to wait for a marriage license.

Well crap what am I waiting for!?!?!

Oh yeah the right goat :(

[Devanmc]

This isnt even the most ridiculous thing posted in this thread :r:r:r

:noon

[Josh_Lucky_13]

This isnt even the most ridiculous thing posted in this thread :r:r:r

So my posts are? Because I feel KL is an acceptable means for humidification? This is why I posted in here to begin with is the fact that all some of you will accept KL for is a litter box. Now maybe I didnt start with a great topic but How On Earth is KL vs Beads debate this volatile? Is this how people with a differing opinion is treated here? I would have better luck signing you up for a Ponzi scheme or switching yall to communism than having you allow me to say KL works? I may not always agree with some opinions and I dont shy a why from expressing mine but this is more than that for yall. Why?

[Bill86]

No it isn't honestly Josh, you just had the bad luck of starting off with one of the more controversial topics in your first few posts or maybe even first post.

You have to understand many people here have been smoking cigars for 10-40 years, maybe longer. They have A LOT of experience, you should really take their advice or at least listen to it. As a new comer you want to more or less ask for advise and be willing to accept it and criticism so you can be led down the right path.

There's a reason people here have cigars that are 40-80 years old. They are VERY VERY well maintained.

[Devanmc]

No it isn't honestly Josh, you just had the bad luck of starting off with one of the more controversial topics in your first few posts or maybe even first post.

You have to understand many people here have been smoking cigars for 10-40 years, maybe longer. They have A LOT of experience, you should really take their advice or at least listen to it. As a new comer you want to more or less ask for advise and be willing to accept it and criticism so you can be led down the right path.

There's a reason people here have cigars that are 40-80 years old. They are VERY VERY well maintained.

:tpd: :xxx :lv

[Josh_Lucky_13]

No it isn't honestly Josh, you just had the bad luck of starting off with one of the more controversial topics in your first few posts or maybe even first post.

You have to understand many people here have been smoking cigars for 10-40 years, maybe longer. They have A LOT of experience, you should really take their advice or at least listen to it. As a new comer you want to more or less ask for advise and be willing to accept it and criticism so you can be led down the right path.

There's a reason people here have cigars that are 40-80 years old. They are VERY VERY well maintained.

There is a very good point to experience and I do value it because I admit not having much. However I didnt just walk down an isle at wally world and say hey this is what I can use for cigars. When I first heard about it I honestly thought it was a noobie prank! Then I did research on it and learned from people with years of experience who learned from others with years of experience using KL. I was still skeptical but figured what the hell and wasted $16 on 8 pounds. I tested it for about a week in a few tupperware containers before I ever introduced it into a humidor. Now I know the KL vs beads is more of a back and forth thing but the way it was attacked in here does annoy me without any other view being allowed. Hell I may even do a side by side by side comparison eventually for more proof of which is better(I would not trust HF or any other bead manufacturer since they have a vested interest in the outcome). Still this is my first day on the site and my views on one thing clearly dont match from what I can tell anyone else. These first interactions with noobs set the tone for them. I went scrolling thru a few letters in the members list there are more than a few whose last day was their first. Now maybe it was they were here for free sticks or other reasons but it can also be the flow of the site and its member that can affect that. Whether the topic is KL vs beads, or humidors vs coolers, cc vs nc or glass top vs hard top, maduro vs connecticut everyone is entitled to those opinions and I think should be allowed to say them rather than team up against them. If you dont agree with those opinions you dont have to read them. Not saying anything bad against any of you tonight and I may have dragged it out a bit but I believe open conversations are good.

[pnoon]

There is a very good point to experience and I do value it because I admit not having much. However I didnt just walk down an isle at wally world and say hey this is what I can use for cigars. When I first heard about it I honestly thought it was a noobie prank! Then I did research on it and learned from people with years of experience who learned from others with years of experience using KL. I was still skeptical but figured what the hell and wasted $16 on 8 pounds. I tested it for about a week in a few tupperware containers before I ever introduced it into a humidor. Now I know the KL vs beads is more of a back and forth thing but the way it was attacked in here does annoy me without any other view being allowed. Hell I may even do a side by side by side comparison eventually for more proof of which is better(I would not trust HF or any other bead manufacturer since they have a vested interest in the outcome). Still this is my first day on the site and my views on one thing clearly dont match from what I can tell anyone else. These first interactions with noobs set the tone for them. I went scrolling thru a few letters in the members list there are more than a few whose last day was their first. Now maybe it was they were here for free sticks or other reasons but it can also be the flow of the site and its member that can affect that. Whether the topic is KL vs beads, or humidors vs coolers, cc vs nc or glass top vs hard top, maduro vs connecticut everyone is entitled to those opinions and I think should be allowed to say them rather than team up against them. If you dont agree with those opinions you dont have to read them. Not saying anything bad against any of you tonight and I may have dragged it out a bit but I believe open conversations are good.
You seem to want to persist in demanding that KL is a better alternative. While you are entitled to your opinion, what I have seen in this thread is you turning a blind eye to opinions that differ from yours. No one has teamed up against you. Don't feel persecuted because many disagree with you. Those that prefer beads do so for a reason or reasons.

When I was new to this hobby/obsession, I had my beliefs and perceptions but I was also humble enough to try and put aside what I thought I knew and learn from the experience of others. And even if I didn't agree, I wouldn't continue to fight the issue. I would just agree to disagree and step away.

Many of us are here to learn from each other. I hope you can do the same.

[Bill86]

There is a very good point to experience and I do value it because I admit not having much. However I didnt just walk down an isle at wally world and say hey this is what I can use for cigars. When I first heard about it I honestly thought it was a noobie prank! Then I did research on it and learned from people with years of experience who learned from others with years of experience using KL. I was still skeptical but figured what the hell and wasted $16 on 8 pounds. I tested it for about a week in a few tupperware containers before I ever introduced it into a humidor. Now I know the KL vs beads is more of a back and forth thing but the way it was attacked in here does annoy me without any other view being allowed. Hell I may even do a side by side by side comparison eventually for more proof of which is better(I would not trust HF or any other bead manufacturer since they have a vested interest in the outcome). Still this is my first day on the site and my views on one thing clearly dont match from what I can tell anyone else. These first interactions with noobs set the tone for them. I went scrolling thru a few letters in the members list there are more than a few whose last day was their first. Now maybe it was they were here for free sticks or other reasons but it can also be the flow of the site and its member that can affect that. Whether the topic is KL vs beads, or humidors vs coolers, cc vs nc or glass top vs hard top, maduro vs connecticut everyone is entitled to those opinions and I think should be allowed to say them rather than team up against them. If you dont agree with those opinions you dont have to read them. Not saying anything bad against any of you tonight and I may have dragged it out a bit but I believe open conversations are good.

Here's the thing you only have a week experience on the KL and you say it already "works". Much more time is needed to really know for sure that it does indeed work.

Also from what people are saying here KL has a problem when the seasons change and whatnot. Now I cannot honestly say for sure that this is the case. But what I will say that the following that has not been mentioned.

1. Generally hygrometers are pieces of crap. Most people would agree that they are VERY temperamental and often do not work at all.
2. Seeing as how you cannot trust these devices you really want to be able to trust in your humidification to keep your cigars in good working order.

That's where we generally have a problem with pretty much anything that isn't beads or active humidification.

If you want to continue discussing this I would please ask you just PM me. I don't mind discussing this with you but I don't think dragging this thread on is going to please the masses. It also seems no one else is really engaged in this topic.

[newcigarz]

Kitty litter, beads, or something else it's all the same.

Just make sure you don't have a bad seal.
http://www.fototime.com/2BC23FA465CC331/standard.jpg

[icehog3]

Yes, for some people, their first day was their last. And yes, some because they just came to mooch cigars.

Others, because on their first day they got into a debate over one their beliefs, and continued to tout their weeks of experience over those with decades of experience. Often, they became insulting and were shown the door.

Josh, you have been relatively civil, with the exception of repeatedly saying that the members who disagree with you must be "close-minded" or that they are ganging-up on you. No one is ganging up, each one of us who posted individually disagrees with your idea. I would venture to say that you may be the one who is a little close-minded...maybe people with scores of years, decades doing this might have a little insight beyond weeks of internet research and a week of hands-on?

I hope you may decide to take an unemontional look at this community, we share a lot, learn a lot, laugh a lot. Lots of people who had a rough first couple days are now valued members of the community. Don't take it personally that so many people disagree with your idea, take some time to ponder why, and about how much more practical experience they may have doing this than you do. If you do, you may find this place has a lot to offer you, and eventually for you to offer it. If you don't, my guess your stay here will be short. Good luck.

[Bageland2000]

No what I am trying to do is compare oil to silica beads. Now cheap gas station $0.99 oil does not stand up to $10 royal purple. Yet they both work! The difference between your beads and my KL is virtually the same except for some minor differences. http://talasonline.com/photos/instructions/silica_gel_info.pdf

Beads where not made for cigars. Neither was KL. Now the biggest difference between the 2 I can tell is beads are high density and regular density KL(why you should use twice as much KL than beads). They both absorb moisture and can maintain RH. It is the moisture absorbency property that led to the development of Silica into KL. Now if you did any research most cats do not react positively to silica KL in fact many cats have to be trained to use this over the clay litter out there. So you point of worried your cat will pee on your sticks is pointless.

Coolers in fact where not meant for cigar storage but many use it and it works well. Should everyone dump their coolers full of sticks and all buy a Waxing Moon Humidor since that is acceptable cigar storage? If you dont like KL that is fine, if you use a humidor over a cooler or vice versa that is fine but the way some of you talk about another method seems closed mined and a little off. If you think your sticks are so valuable that only the best will do then I am all for it and Ed make great humidors. KL works as good for RH as a cooler does for cigar storage. They both save $$ to buy more sticks.

OMG I'm unbelievably impressed that you found an actual scientific research paper to back up your claims. Thanks for putting that time in, definitely did a great deal to help me decide:tu

Edit: ALSO, I'm awestruck at the amount of controversy this caused! I guess when political discussion is outlawed people have to get up in arms about something!!!:r When it comes down to it everyone here is in a community and no one wants to see new members making decision that could potentially ruin cigars. :banger Long live CA

[bobarian]

OMG I'm unbelievably impressed that you found an actual scientific research paper to back up your claims. Thanks for putting that time in, definitely did a great deal to help me decide:tu
tim
Edit: ALSO, I'm awestruck at the amount of controversy this caused! I guess when political discussion is outlawed people have to get up in arms about something!!!:r When it comes down to it everyone here is in a community and no one wants to see new members making decision that could potentially ruin cigars. :banger Long live CA

If you have concluded that unconditioned KL is an acceptable medium for regulation of Rh then you are sadly mistaken. Conditioning to a specific Rh above 50% requires both time and a hygrometer that is much more accurate than the typical digital home hygrometer. Also, the amount of KL needed is approximately 4 to 5 times the amount of Rh beads. Search some of Shilala's research in this forum for more details. KL does a great job of absorbing moisture, but unless you like your cigars at 50%, then you have a lot of work to do before KL will release moisture at a more desireable Rh for cigars. :2

[Bageland2000]

If you have concluded that unconditioned KL is an acceptable medium for regulation of Rh then you are sadly mistaken. Conditioning to a specific Rh above 50% requires both time and a hygrometer that is much more accurate than the typical digital home hygrometer. Also, the amount of KL needed is approximately 4 to 5 times the amount of Rh beads. Search some of Shilala's research in this forum for more details. KL does a great job of absorbing moisture, but unless you like your cigars at 50%, then you have a lot of work to do before KL will release moisture at a more desireable Rh for cigars. :2

I'm hearing the "look what you did you little jerk" from Uncle frank in "Home Alone." Definitely didn't mean to restart this thread:hn I have read the whole article and every post in the thread and made up my mind. I won't say what that is though! not going to do anything to get this restarted:tu

[icehog3]

OMG I'm unbelievably impressed that you found an actual scientific research paper to back up your claims. Thanks for putting that time in, definitely did a great deal to help me decide:tu



Josh_Lucky_13 hasn't been back for over 5 months, so I am afraid he won't be here to hear your praise. ;)

[Bageland2000]

Josh_Lucky_13 hasn't been back for over 5 months, so I am afraid he won't be here to hear your praise. ;)

His name and his number of posts say that he's gone for good

[icehog3]

His name and his number of posts say that he's gone for good

I hope you may decide to take an unemontional look at this community, we share a lot, learn a lot, laugh a lot. Lots of people who had a rough first couple days are now valued members of the community. Don't take it personally that so many people disagree with your idea, take some time to ponder why, and about how much more practical experience they may have doing this than you do. If you do, you may find this place has a lot to offer you, and eventually for you to offer it. If you don't, my guess your stay here will be short. Good luck.

Looks like I called it. Too bad, many have found their niche in our great community.

[Bageland2000]

I love it here, and by the number of YOUR posts, so do you! hahahaha

[bobarian]

I'm hearing the "look what you did you little jerk" from Uncle frank in "Home Alone." Definitely didn't mean to restart this thread:hn I have read the whole article and every post in the thread and made up my mind. I won't say what that is though! not going to do anything to get this restarted:tu

Just saying that the comments in this thread are not the only ones to consider. Many use KL, many use PG solution and a sponge. Like cigars, enjoy whatever you choose. :2

[T.G]

OMG I'm unbelievably impressed that you found an actual scientific research paper to back up your claims.

No, he didn't.

He found a paper on silica gel for preservation of museum exhibits and from the appearances of his post he only skimmed it, if even that.

If you follow it and understand what you are dealing with, something as haphazardly manufactured as kitty litter, the most popular being "Exquisicat Cat Piss Soaker Plus" hardly even qualifies as "RD Gel" which isn't even close to the "Art-Sorb" "Rhapid-Gel" - these are industry standard Rh maintenance mediums.

As one goes through the paper, the author points out flaw after flaw in "RD Gel".

have read the whole article and every post in the thread and made up my mind.
Reading and understanding are two different things.

[Bageland2000]

Just saying that the comments in this thread are not the only ones to consider. Many use KL, many use PG solution and a sponge. Like cigars, enjoy whatever you choose. :2

For sure! Glad to have so many helpful voices:noon

[Bageland2000]

Reading and understanding are two different things.

Hmm... I have to say that I never like to say things that could cause controversy on these forums. I'm very opinionated but I like to keep those out of CA. I like to keep things lite here. I did understand the article. And though it wasn't specifically about Cigar beads at all (clearly)- that doesn't change the fact that it was written using the scientific method. That comment was pretty presumptuous.

[T.G]

If you say so. That's why you topped a 9-1/2 month old thread, after all, right?