NFL's new safety policy

[Steelergar]

What do you guys think of the NFL headquarters changing the way defense is played. Like most people I don't want to see guys get seriously injured when watching a game. However, I love smash mouth, hard hitting, good tackling defense. I enjoy that as much if not more than watching the offense score touchdowns. I have no problem with the NFL going after deliberate hits to the head. But for going after James Harrison for making a smart football move is ridiculous. Whats you take?

[LostAbbott]

I don't even know what happened.

[Whee]

I hear they will be handing out the flags this weekend. If they don;t arrive in time, then it will be two hand touch on Sunday.

[Mugen910]

I say go back to the leather padding and leather helmets and lets see how often guys launch themselves at others.

[yourchoice]

I say go back to the leather padding and leather helmets and lets see how often guys launch themselves at others.

I agree. The equipment allows these guys think they're indestructible. It's a tough thing to balance though.

I love smash mouth football too, but I think something has to be done. Truthfully, I thought Harrison's hits to were both unnecessarily dangerous. One was a blatant helmet to helmet, and on the other he didn't even make an attempt to wrap his arms (they actually expanded outward). Making yourself a head-first missile is dangerous to both the hitter and the hitee. Those hits and the one by the Patriot (forget his name) were worse than the one on DeSean Jackson IMHO.

[Steelergar]

I agree. The equipment allows these guys think they're indestructible. It's a tough thing to balance though.

I love smash mouth football too, but I think something has to be done. Truthfully, I thought Harrison's hits to were both unnecessarily dangerous. One was a blatant helmet to helmet, and on the other he didn't even make an attempt to wrap his arms (they actually expanded outward). Making yourself a head-first missile is dangerous to both the hitter and the hitee. Those hits and the one by the Patriot (forget his name) were worse than the one on DeSean Jackson IMHO.

You gotta watch it at real speed though. Its easy to slow down a replay and say he could of done this. That game was the fastest most explosive I've seen a defense play in a couple of years. That rookie reciever didn't know any better. I saw Harrison Lead with his chest and forearm into the other guys shoulder. The guy got rattled got up and walked off the field. Whats the big deal?

[Sauer Grapes]

You gotta watch it at real speed though. Its easy to slow down a replay and say he could of done this. That game was the fastest most explosive I've seen a defense play in a couple of years. That rookie reciever didn't know any better. I saw Harrison Lead with his chest and forearm into the other guys shoulder. The guy got rattled got up and walked off the field. Whats the big deal?

I have to disagree. Both of Harrison's were helmet to helmet. I know it's hard to control your aim when things happen so fast, but both of his hits were illegal before the new "safety policy." The one from the patriots was also helmet to helmet.

I do agree that the one on Jackson was a legal, albeit extremely hard, hit. I don't think the guy on the falcons should have been fined. It was a clean hit.

[pnoon]

I say go back to the leather padding and leather helmets and lets see how often guys launch themselves at others.

I agree. The equipment allows these guys think they're indestructible. It's a tough thing to balance though.



I couldn't agree more.
Take a look at rugby. Minimal padding (compared to American football). Much more controlled contact. But still hard hitting. And those motherfokkers are tough.

The NFL these days is more about collision and violent contact. Not to mention the "look at me" showboating. More often you hear "what a hit" as opposed to "what a tackle". Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the game. I just think the game has more of a focus on collision than it needs to be.
:2

[Steelergar]

I have to disagree. Both of Harrison's were helmet to helmet. I know it's hard to control your aim when things happen so fast, but both of his hits were illegal before the new "safety policy." The one from the patriots was also helmet to helmet.

I do agree that the one on Jackson was a legal, albeit extremely hard, hit. I don't think the guy on the falcons should have been fined. It was a clean hit.

There was definately helmet to helmet on the cribbs hit and as soon as it happened I knew it was a dewsy. But both were legal hits. Cribs was not defensless he jumped head foward into a group of guys tackling him. One LB wrapped him up while Harrison went in for a waist high hit, that became a incidental head hit. The reciever hit was a lesson learned for 2 rookies. Neither play was a penalty. Both players walked off the field.

[yourchoice]

There was definately helmet to helmet on the cribbs hit and as soon as it happened I knew it was a dewsy. But both were legal hits. Cribs was not defensless he jumped head foward into a group of guys tackling him. One LB wrapped him up while Harrison went in for a waist high hit, that became a incidental head hit. The reciever hit was a lesson learned for 2 rookies. Neither play was a penalty. Both players walked off the field.

IMHO, I don't think the fact that the "players walked off the field" should weigh into the decision if a player should be disciplined. Neither should if it was called a penalty. There are plenty of instances in a lot of sports where a call wasn't made on the field, but fines/suspensions are handed down after the fact.

When I learned how to play, there were two key components to tackling, keep your head up and wrap your arms. Harrison did neither on either play (I'm talking about Cribbs and Massaquoi (sp?), don't know that I've seen the hit on whatever rookie you're talking about).

[chachee52]

The only problem with starting these fines/suspensions is: Where do they draw the line? Every flag thrown? Because there are some flags that shouldn't be thrown. I want people to be safe, but the NFL doesn't allow the defense to do anything any more. They aren't even allowed to look at the QB any more. it's like the "roughing the kicker" rule. A couple weeks ago they were throwing the flags around in some very questionable calls. So do those defensive players also get fined/suspended for the roughing flag?
Pitterno (from Penn ST) has gone public to say that he think that they should take the face masks off.

[massphatness]

incidental head hit

My understanding of the rule is that intent plays no role. Helmet to helmet hits are illegal irrespective if the player didn't mean to initiate the contact but "incidentally" did so. These kinds of hits have always been illegal, but the NFL is now going to enforce the rule. The policy is not new. The implementation is all that is changing.

The question for me was articulated very clearly on a sports talk radio show this morning: where do I want to see the players I root for -- on the field or on the sidelines in street clothes?

[Volt]

I say suck it up. This isn't a chess match we are watching. These guys get paid more in a year than I'll see in a life time, get out there and earn it. All they need now is to say no contact with the QB and pass out the belts with the flags. I guess the girls field hockey league will take over as the toughest sport in America. YMMV.

[Steelergar]

My understanding of the rule is that intent plays no role. Helmet to helmet hits are illegal irrespective if the player didn't mean to initiate the contact but "incidentally" did so. These kinds of hits have always been illegal, but the NFL is now going to enforce the rule. The policy is not new. The implementation is all that is changing.

The question for me was articulated very clearly on a sports talk radio show this morning: where do I want to see the players I root for -- on the field or on the sidelines in street clothes?

From my understanding earhole hits are legal on running backs because they are not defensless. which is why their is no flag on that play. Cribbs is one of the fastest players in the league. Looking at it again Harrison would of hit Cribbs dead on but Cribbs slowed down and fell foward at the last second. And having a 280lb DE fall on him probably didn't help.

[357]

less padding is the way to go, leather helmets, etc. Look at college hockey, they are forced to wear a full cage helmet and the sticks are always up and hitting each other in the face/head. Back in the NHL before helmets were a forced issue, you rarely saw that. Now that helmets are forced and many wear a plexi visor, the same crap is cropping up in the NHL. I think in these cases, less is more. A guy is not going to knowingly sacrifice his own head/life to make a highlight reel on SportsCenter. Even though that is what they are doing, they believe (falsely) that they are invincible.

[Parshooter]

What needs to happen is for these defensive players to get rid of the "thug mentality" and get back to basic tackling, with arms and shoulder pads, to the torso. Look back during the days of Butkus and Singletary. Those guys hit just as hard but did it the correct way.
Steelergar, glad you're not looking at this through black/gold colored glasses ;)

[replicant_argent]

Players are getting bigger, stronger, and faster. Until articulated armored uniforms are de riguer (protecting joints, head, and spinal injuries to a factor multiple times the possible generated force) it will become increasingly more dangerous for players. At some point, these players will reach a finite point of training, conditioning, and ability due to the limitations of the human body. We have not reached it yet, and already it is a very dangerous sport, whether the infractions are intentional or unintentional. As far as the homer argument of "Where would I rather cheer for my favorite player?," at some point it may become "from the DL, the hospital, the wheelchair, or the morgue."

Of course, logically, YMMV, if you are a rabid fan. Nothing wrong with being a rabid fan, and if you want to see gladiatorial style combats (ala' MMA), so be it. But the NFL (and their individual owners, coincidentally) must decide how much they want to gamble by taking steps to protect their multimillion dollar assets. Diminishing returns indeed on that investment are possible, if not expected, as these players "progress" to higher ability.

But what do I know? I'm just an average stupid guy.

[Resipsa]

I say go back to the leather padding and leather helmets and lets see how often guys launch themselves at others.

+1

Too many people launching themselves head first, and leading with their forearms. How exactly does one tackle someone with your head or forearm?

time to get back to the basics where tackling meant hitting low, wrapping up and taking the runners legs away with your arms.

I mean how many times a game do you see a text book tackle where the tackler hits the runner, wraps up, grabs his thighs and lifts him?

Those can be as bone crushing as anything else, if done properly

[pnoon]

What needs to happen is for these defensive players to get rid of the "thug mentality" and get back to basic tackling, with arms and shoulder pads, to the torso. Look back during the days of Butkus and Singletary. Those guys hit just as hard but did it the correct way.
Steelergar, glad you're not looking at this through black/gold colored glasses ;)
Bravo, Marc.
You hit the nail on the head.
Posted via Mobile Device

[replicant_argent]

+1

Too many people launching themselves head first, and leading with their forearms. How exactly does one tackle someone with your head or forearm?

time to get back to the basics where tackling meant hitting low, wrapping up and taking the runners legs away with your arms.

I mean how many times a game do you see a text book tackle where the tackler hits the runner, wraps up, grabs his thighs and lifts him?

Those can be as bone crushing as anything else, if done properly
B-B-b-but Vic... they have been told for their whole careers that "harder is better" and that they can be big walking ccok on the block if they are the hardest hitting badass out there... You think they could retrain themselves, their egos, and the system that inculcates this attitude to ... uh... play.. er.... better football?

[Mugen910]

I say suck it up. This isn't a chess match we are watching. These guys get paid more in a year than I'll see in a life time, get out there and earn it. All they need now is to say no contact with the QB and pass out the belts with the flags. I guess the girls field hockey league will take over as the toughest sport in America. YMMV.

No way Mike...I'm all for seeing a guy get a good hit but this is overboard. There are plenty of good hits in rugby with the whole "ohh ahh" factor without people ending their careers. Yes, this is American Style (I'm bigger, badder and stronger) style football but it's about the safety of it all the way down to pop warner. You think it's only the NFL that worries about this? My friend told me when he played football in his teens, all that padding made him feel like he was safe to launch himself at someone else. Kids see NFL players do it and they think they can too.

They make tons of money because the injury is a factor of their career. They go with the "I'm taking what I can now before it's over" frame of mind.

[357]

B-B-b-but Vic... they have been told for their whole careers that "harder is better" and that they can be big walking ccok on the block if they are the hardest hitting badass out there... You think they could retrain themselves, their egos, and the system that inculcates this attitude to ... uh... play.. er.... better football?

Getting that highlight hit on SportsCenter might get them a bigger contract. It's all about the benjamins baby :2

[replicant_argent]

Getting that highlight hit on SportsCenter might get them a bigger contract. It's all about the benjamins baby :2

You are correct, Mike, it is all about the Circle of Ego and Money, no matter the costs.

I propose a new sport, properly televised, advertised, and sponsored, of course, where there are just two types of players, the Clubbees, and the Clubbers. The sport is called Clubbing. You take a large Club, and you swing it at the other dudes head. That is all. Now, imagine the market forces at work, and the incredible salarys you could get for being a prime Clubbee or Clubber.... Aw crap... I forgot about that whole "law of diminishing returns" thing again.. I would make a really crappy pro-Clubber.

[icantbejon]

The NFL these days is more about collision and violent contact. Not to mention the "look at me" showboating. More often you hear "what a hit" as opposed to "what a tackle". Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the game. I just think the game has more of a focus on collision than it needs to be.
:2

I'm with you on this....the art of the tackle has gone away. Defensive players use themselves as human missiles to blow something up, as opposed to good ole' fashioned breaking down, wrapping up, and taking to the ground. It has so much to do with making a highlight reel now.
That being said, I believe the "business" of football is really driving these rules. The NFL has to pay lifetime healthcare costs to the guys getting all these head injuries, so they see it as cost cutting from my perspective. :2

[357]

I'm with you on this....the art of the tackle has gone away. Defensive players use themselves as human missiles to blow something up, as opposed to good ole' fashioned breaking down, wrapping up, and taking to the ground. It has so much to do with making a highlight reel now.
That being said, I believe the "business" of football is really driving these rules. The NFL has to pay lifetime healthcare costs to the guys getting all these head injuries, so they see it as cost cutting from my perspective. :2

NFL has a problem. They market these big hits. They use it to promote their business, and now they levy $75,000 fines for them to the players who do it. It's a bit of a pickle for them.

[Volt]

No way Mike...I'm all for seeing a guy get a good hit but this is overboard. There are plenty of good hits in rugby with the whole "ohh ahh" factor without people ending their careers. Yes, this is American Style (I'm bigger, badder and stronger) style football but it's about the safety of it all the way down to pop warner. You think it's only the NFL that worries about this? My friend told me when he played football in his teens, all that padding made him feel like he was safe to launch himself at someone else. Kids see NFL players do it and they think they can too.

They make tons of money because the injury is a factor of their career. They go with the "I'm taking what I can now before it's over" frame of mind.


I actually like Aussie rulles football better than the NFL. Similiar to rugby but a bit different. From what I see on tv, they hit every bit as hard as any NFL type and wear next to nothing as far as pads, helments, etc. A ton more action/play time and a faster paced game. They leave the game way more bloodied and beat up and don't whine about it. It's a strength game with who can move the ball.

As to the rules. I don't want to see peeps get hurt, but it is a physical sport. That's why little guys like me and girls don't play it. It's getting to the point the offense is almost untouchable except in certain points of a play and only in some specific format. I'm fairly serious, they might as well attach flags to their waist's.

Of all the hits over the last weekend, I still think the hit Harrison hit on Massoqui was legit. From my point of view he dipped just as Harrison was tackling him. Maybe we need a rule that phohibts the offense from such actions and drawing the helment penalty? In baseball we have balks? For the record I am a Steelers fan, be that as it may.

[yourchoice]

Of all the hits over the last weekend, I still think the hit Harrison hit on Massoqui was legit. From my point of view he dipped just as Harrison was tackling him. Maybe we need a rule that phohibts the offense from such actions and drawing the helment penalty? In baseball we have balks? For the record I am a Steelers fan, be that as it may.

Are you sure you're not referring to the hit on Cribs? The Massaquoi hit looked like a swan dive with his arms spread the way they were. That's what they used to call spearing. Head down, no attempt to wrap. Poor tecnique IMHO.

[Mugen910]

For the record I am a Steelers fan, be that as it may.

damn and here I thought we were friends :c

[Volt]

damn and here I thought we were friends :c

:) What's funny, is I'm originally from LA. I was a Saints fan back in the days they wore bags on their heads to the stadium. Archie never had a team to play with. Started following the Steelers when Terry Bradshaw got picked up by them. It's a club with "usually" little to no drama, no prima donnas, and a real good basic football program. Of course our "alleged" molester has changed it a bit. I'd as soon see him get canned and have Batch take over.

I think there are going to be many opinions on what is excessive and what constitutes a good hit. Mostly in part I just see the NFL going the way of most things that get over regulated - dull and uninteresting. Take NASCAR as a recent example. France and crew took the race out of racing and now they are scrambling to recover a lot of what they lost. Rubbing and tempers are a part of it, other wise go race Indy/CART and keep your courtesy 2" (sorta like dancing with your mom), not much fun.

Deliberately wreck a person - take a 1 lap black flag like you used to, but "racing" for a clean, image correct corporate world is boring. I haven't watched a whole race much less a part of one in 5 - 7 years.

[Resipsa]

http://www.usafootball.com/articles/displayArticle/6085/5470


If you're not leading with your helmet to begin with it's pretty difficult to wind up with helmet to helmet contact. Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying it's pretty difficult.

[gvarsity]

The tricky part is when it is inadvertent and you can't judge intent very well from the sidelines. One of the hits I saw fined this weekend looked like the defender lept and the offensive player collapsed down into the hit. Had the offensive player stayed up he would have taken it in the chest and not the head. I'm all for preventing INTENTIONAL injury but accidental is part of the game. Shots to the head the knees and from behind are all already accounted for by rule.

Really though this appears to be a significant increase in the penalty for spearing to the helmet as opposed to an actual rule change. You shouldn't be leading with the top of your helmet period. You do that and hit someone in the head and you get fined and ejected. I think the ejection is a bad idea only because it will be to hard to judge a. intent and b. what actually happened unless it is reviewable and even then it would be hard. Can you imagine the impact if say Troy Polamalu was ejected from a playoff game by a legit hit that looked bad? Easily could change the outcome of a game and be a nightmare for the NFL.

[shilala]

I was gonna say much the same thing, Pete.
It's a business. Business is to make money. The owners don't give a red rat's ass what we think, they need to protect their investment.
I watched the Steeler's game. I don't feel that Harrison intentionally went helmet to helmet in either hit, nor was it his intent. I don't think either were a big deal, but guys got hurt. Guys are gonna get hurt in football whether the hits are legal, questionable, or illegal. It's a violent sport. It's why I watch it.
I'm more concerned with the crybaby way he's handled himself since the game. He's a douche. Don't tell him I said that.

Players are getting bigger, stronger, and faster. Until articulated armored uniforms are de riguer (protecting joints, head, and spinal injuries to a factor multiple times the possible generated force) it will become increasingly more dangerous for players. At some point, these players will reach a finite point of training, conditioning, and ability due to the limitations of the human body. We have not reached it yet, and already it is a very dangerous sport, whether the infractions are intentional or unintentional. As far as the homer argument of "Where would I rather cheer for my favorite player?," at some point it may become "from the DL, the hospital, the wheelchair, or the morgue."

Of course, logically, YMMV, if you are a rabid fan. Nothing wrong with being a rabid fan, and if you want to see gladiatorial style combats (ala' MMA), so be it. But the NFL (and their individual owners, coincidentally) must decide how much they want to gamble by taking steps to protect their multimillion dollar assets. Diminishing returns indeed on that investment are possible, if not expected, as these players "progress" to higher ability.

But what do I know? I'm just an average stupid guy.

[Steelergar]

James Harrison is a serious guy. He loves football and tries to play football the best way he can. You can't blame him for being upset for doing his job and playing defense they way the coaches teach him to, than getting an outrages fine for it. Not everybody thinks the same so you can't get mad at him for his reaction. I agree players should wrap more I've noticed that for years. You see it alot SS's and FS's leading with their head to break up passes. But learning how to tackle at a fundemental midget league level and an NFL level is different. Of course you want to wrap players up but there is more than one was to crack an egg. And NFL coaches teach their players to go for a hit when another player has them wrapped up. Its the fastest and best way to stop the play. They also train them to do that to seperate the player from the ball. That happned on both of Harrison's defensive plays in question. So from that stand point he did his job. Do you guys know a better way to dislodge the ball? Wrapping dosn't do it.

[pinotguy]

This week's development is just a continuation of the "*****fication" of the game, IMO. A couple of years ago, when Hines Ward broke the jaw of that Bengals LB on a perfectly legal, peel back-type block, the league outlawed that. Last year, they outlawed a wedge larger than three players on kick-offs. This year you can't line up directly over the center on FG/PAT attempts - WTF, over? The NFL reaps all kinds of benefits from this kind of contact but is now trying to legislate it and in the middle of the season? There's quite a bit of hypocrisy involved on their part as well. I just read today that earlier in the week, their official merchandise website had a photo available of the Harrison/Massaquoi hit for purchase. (This has subsequently been removed.) So, for a short time, they were making money (or at least trying to) on one of the exact examples they're holding up as taboo. Ray Lewis got it right yesterday when he essentially said that the game is too fast and trying to avoid a big-time collision is not realistic. It also seems like in a lot of these cases, the receivers and tight ends contribute by trying to get "small", which alters their body position and that's when the big hits happen.

[Steelergar]

Yeah the last couple years have been a joke with the rule changes. I really don't like the decisions the current president has made. But these rule changes to beef up passing and TD's has been going on since the 70's when they made a rule named after a Steelers DB that changed the way they could cover recievers. After that Rivers hit they made the Hines Ward rule. Enoughs Enough! Quit ruining the game I love to watch.

[yachties23]

What do you guys think of the NFL headquarters changing the way defense is played. Like most people I don't want to see guys get seriously injured when watching a game. However, I love smash mouth, hard hitting, good tackling defense. I enjoy that as much if not more than watching the offense score touchdowns. I have no problem with the NFL going after deliberate hits to the head. But for going after James Harrison for making a smart football move is ridiculous. Whats you take?

James Harrison said he goes out there to hurt people, but he doesn't want to injure people. That hit was as dirty, and wasn't a smart football play. When asked around the league the players always throw his name out there as one of the dirtiest players.

That being said, I think they should fine players for blatantly dirty hits, and if a player continually aims for the head, suspensions should be handed down. I understand its a man's game, but there are limits. Merriweather's hit was intentional, so was Harrison;s. When your intentions are to knock somebody out of the game, you are asking to open your checkbook up,

[Steelergar]

I just figured out why the NFL office is cracking down on what they call violent hits. The US Congress had hearings with the NFL during the offseason grilling NFL representives about concussions. I guess retired players were complaining and did not feel they were taken care of corectly by the NFL and went to the goverment. Now we have a bigger problem. What buisness does the US goverment have with how football is played. I guarantee you they put pressure on League headquarters. Whats next? Boxing, MMA, Hockey, Nascar. We got a major problem now!

[Steelergar]

James Harrison said he goes out there to hurt people, but he doesn't want to injure people. That hit was as dirty, and wasn't a smart football play. When asked around the league the players always throw his name out there as one of the dirtiest players.

That being said, I think they should fine players for blatantly dirty hits, and if a player continually aims for the head, suspensions should be handed down. I understand its a man's game, but there are limits. Merriweather's hit was intentional, so was Harrison;s. When your intentions are to knock somebody out of the game, you are asking to open your checkbook up,

and thats whats being said of why he got fined. His post game comments not his legal hits.

[yachties23]

and thats whats being said of why he got fined. His post game comments not his legal hits.

Legal, and clean are two different things. Just because you can do something doesn't make it right. You are a big MMA guy, I've read your posts, I respect your opinions on fighters big time, but here, I disagree bigtime. Lets say Mike Wallace gets tied up by Joe Haden who has his legs wrapped up and is trying to pull away. He has no idea TJ Ward is lined up and Tees off on him. Commercial break. We come back to Wallace being boarded up, and carted off. No where near as appealing as Harrison's hit on Cribbs right?

You can't play favorites here. Yes there are hits that through no fault of the defensive player are to the head (the hit on Jackson this weekend is a good example) but there are players, James Harrison, Jared Allen, Brandon Merriweather, that are notorious for laying dirty hits on defenseless offense players.

[Steelergar]

From my revelation above, its a bigger problem with the US goverment involved in sports. Even Ray Lewis said those hits were clean. Players around the league are angry at the NFL office right now. Calling a player dirty are certain peoples opinions, thats fine. I would like some examples of these dirty plays though because I watch the Steelers every week I never see them. I see tough smart football played by Harrison. I also see OL try to clothesline him when he is running around them that rarely gets called.

[yourchoice]

http://images.footballfanatics.com/productImages/_154000/FF_154265_s.jpg

Just sayin'. ;)

[Wanger]

What needs to happen is for these defensive players to get rid of the "thug mentality" and get back to basic tackling, with arms and shoulder pads, to the torso. Look back during the days of Butkus and Singletary. Those guys hit just as hard but did it the correct way.
Steelergar, glad you're not looking at this through black/gold colored glasses ;)

Read the whole thing, and have one specific comment on this all...
Look at the Vikings players, and specifically Antoine Winfield. He's widely considered to be the best tackling cornerback in the league. His technique is "perfect", and he routinely brings down players much bigger than he is on his own. The effort and technique that he uses seem to spread through the team (when they can actually tackle someone). I don't see a lot of head down, launching plays from them, though Ray Edwards has a penchant for trying to leap blockers to get to the QB. I think in general, they all use good technique, as to teams like the Ravens (from what I've seen). They hit hard, but cleanly, and with good technique (Ray Lewis).

Going in leading with your helmet and your head down is a good way for YOU to end up with a concussion, at the least, and potentially in a wheelchair (it has happened, and will continue to happen).

[gvarsity]

Read the whole thing, and have one specific comment on this all...
Look at the Vikings players, and specifically Antoine Winfield. He's widely considered to be the best tackling cornerback in the league. His technique is "perfect", and he routinely brings down players much bigger than he is on his own. The effort and technique that he uses seem to spread through the team (when they can actually tackle someone). I don't see a lot of head down, launching plays from them, though Ray Edwards has a penchant for trying to leap blockers to get to the QB. I think in general, they all use good technique, as to teams like the Ravens (from what I've seen). They hit hard, but cleanly, and with good technique (Ray Lewis).

Going in leading with your helmet and your head down is a good way for YOU to end up with a concussion, at the least, and potentially in a wheelchair (it has happened, and will continue to happen).

I would also suggest that nobody thinks that the Vikings defense is soft because the wrap tackle and bring players to the ground. Antoine Winfield is known both as a sure tackler but also a hard physical tackler.

Originally Posted by Parshooter View Post
What needs to happen is for these defensive players to get rid of the "thug mentality" and get back to basic tackling, with arms and shoulder pads, to the torso. Look back during the days of Butkus and Singletary. Those guys hit just as hard but did it the correct way.
Steelergar, glad you're not looking at this through black/gold colored glasses


Singletary maybe as he was a pretty stand up guy and hard player but Butkus was dirty as hell and that is what made him a star. In that period they were all dirty. He had a head slap and a clothesline and spear in his arsenal as much or more than anyone of his generation that's why people were scared of him. Going back in NFL history we are looking at significantly more violent, reckless and dangerous play rather than basic fundamental tackling.

[Mikey202]

If I was Harrison I would put back $1 million for fines, and just go play. As a fan of the game, I have no problem with the hits. These guys are so much faster and stronger than years ago. I don't want anyone to get crippled or killed. These guys are paid Millions to play, and I think it's more about liability, rather than a safety issue, as far as the NFL is concerned.

I mean these guys are told to jack people up coming across the middle of the field, and have the attitude of punishing someone, from day 1. Look at Ed McCaffrey who used to play for Denver. That's what he was known for, he got jacked-up all the time, he broke his leg once. ESPN rated him as the player most likely to take a bad hit on the field.

I hope it doesn't get to the point of people tackling like Dion Sanders,(ESPN rated him as the person most likely NOT to take or put a hit on someone.)
It's football , it's a violent sport. I'm glad I have Harrison playing for my Steelers.

[forgop]

I just heard Kyle Turley on Jim Rome. He expressed how po'd he is at the league and the union over this. He mentioned how players are consistently denied disability from former players complaining of injuries stemming from hits to the head. Like he said, the NFL wants to crack down on these hits while collecting fines, but then deny every claim possible.

[Resipsa]

http://images.footballfanatics.com/productImages/_154000/FF_154265_s.jpg

Just sayin'. ;):r:r

[Resipsa]

What buisness does the US goverment have with how football is played. I guarantee you they put pressure on League headquarters. Whats next? Boxing, MMA, Hockey, Nascar. We got a major problem now!
I really hope you were joking. If you weren't I wouldn't even know where to begin to try to explain it to you.

[Slow Triathlete]

I think that it is turning into a league of nannies!!

That's why I switched to rugby.

[Steelergar]

I really hope you were joking. If you weren't I wouldn't even know where to begin to try to explain it to you.

So you think its the job of the US federal goverement to tell the NFL how players should tackle? I hope your joking. However, I do know where to begin.

[forgop]

So you think its the job of the US federal goverement to tell the NFL how players should tackle?

Why not? They're pretty much mandating what we can or can't do in every other aspect of our lives. :tf

[Mikey202]

Cribbs ain't bitter about it.....

And although he was the victim of Harrison’s viciousness, Browns wide receiver Joshua Cribbs(notes) had a softer message for Pittsburgh’s enforcer: “Don’t change you.”

“You’re a player, so play,” Cribbs said he told Harrison, his former Kent State teammate and close friend. “Let refs ref. Let the NFL administration, let everyone do their jobs. If you get fined, just try to tailor yourself, but play the game. Don’t try to change who you are.”

The league said the shot was legal—a claim the Browns dispute—and Cribbs found it within reasonable limits as well.

“I had the ball and was going down and he came in to clean me up,” Cribbs said. “It’s his job to try to put me out of the game. If I was a linebacker, you try to knock guys out. That’s what linebackers try to do for the most part. You have to follow the rules, but that’s their job.”

If (Harrison) played for our team we’d be applauding his efforts,” Cribbs said. “I’m just trying to be honest. If he were on our team we’d be rallying behind him, just like his team is doing for him. He plays to knock people out. Wouldn’t you want a linebacker like that on your team?”

[Resipsa]

So you think its the job of the US federal goverement to tell the NFL how players should tackle? I hope your joking. However, I do know where to begin.

Not really interested in debating this. The NFL is a business, and like any other business the gov. Has "the right" to regulate it. And with that, I'm done here

[Mikey202]

Not really interested in debating this. The NFL is a business, and like any other business the gov. Has "the right" to regulate it. And with that, I'm done here

HEY!!! You have enough to worry about, keepin' your team healthy!! Colts boy!!!:noon:D (said with luv).
Didn't Teddy Roosevelt think of banning football at one time due to people getting killed in games, back in his day? To bad we don't play Peyton and his boys this year, maybe in the AFC Playoffs?:noon :xxx

[yachties23]

Wonder if anybody could say anything positive about James Harrison today....

[Blak Smyth]

My personal feelings are these guys are being paid millions of dollars to "play" a game. Let them hit and get hit. There are risks and they are fully aware of them. If they don't want to take the risks somebody else will. It is a sport and should not be compared to a job. I don't wish harm on anybody, but I do want to see hard hits.

[yachties23]

I was alluding to the his recent interview in Mens Journal....

[Sawyer]

Wonder if anybody could say anything positive about James Harrison today....

He speaks his mind and he tells it like he sees it. Most of what he said was true, but there are definitely plenty of things to criticize in what he said. Goodell is a horrible commissioner and Roethlisberger is no Peyton Manning.

[Steelergar]

He speaks his mind and he tells it like he sees it. Most of what he said was true, but there are definitely plenty of things to criticize in what he said. Goodell is a horrible commissioner and Roethlisberger is no Peyton Manning.

right on

[shilala]

My personal feelings are these guys are being paid millions of dollars to "play" a game. Let them hit and get hit. There are risks and they are fully aware of them. If they don't want to take the risks somebody else will. It is a sport and should not be compared to a job. I don't wish harm on anybody, but I do want to see hard hits.
The NFL is a 15 billion dollar a year business, it's far from a "game". Players are multi-million dollar entertainers. To not protect that investment to some degree would make no sense whatsoever.
Players, owners, and the NFL are all going to do anything they can to protect players, and rightfully so.
Can you expand on your comment "it is a sport and should not be compared to a job"? Those boys definitely work their asses off, and they have an extremely demanding job, both mentally and physically. One of the toughest in the world from a physical standpoint.
That said, I don't want to see the game changed, and I get a bug up my ass every time a new rule is instituted. I also don't want a guy to suffer a career ending open field hit that could be tuned down a bit, so it's tough to swallow new rules, especially when they're pointed straight at my Steelers.
The new contract cuts out a lot of non-gameday hitting, and that'll help with all the wear and tear on these guys that leads to injury. I'm hoping that translates to even more intensity at game time, and I think it will. It'll also help keep players playing rather than sitting on the bench, which is good for all us fans.

[Steelergar]

unfortunatly I predict it leads to less intensity at game time. We'll see what happens though. Just like if the steelers stop doin goal line drills for the sake of preventing hits, of course their goal line defense game time is going to suffer.

[yachties23]

He speaks his mind and he tells it like he sees it. Most of what he said was true, but there are definitely plenty of things to criticize in what he said. Goodell is a horrible commissioner and Roethlisberger is no Peyton Manning.

While I agree that Goodell is a horrible comish, would you go into an interview and say "If he was on fire I wouldn't even piss on him to put it out" about your boss? Kinda stupid imho.

Also can't remember the last time I heard a player talk about his team's quarterback (who happens to have 2 superbowl rings) like Harrison talked about Big Ben.

[Sawyer]

While I agree that Goodell is a horrible comish, would you go into an interview and say "If he was on fire I wouldn't even piss on him to put it out" about your boss? Kinda stupid imho.

Like I said, there are things that you can criticize him for saying. He has very strong feelings towards Goodell. I would too if he kept taking money out of my pocket for playing the game how it is, in my opinion, supposed to be played.

Also can't remember the last time I heard a player talk about his team's quarterback (who happens to have 2 superbowl rings) like Harrison talked about Big Ben.

Pretty sure the 2005 team could have won that super bowl game with me at quarterback.

Lowest passer rating for a Super Bowl winning QB — 22.6 (Completed 9 of 21 passes for zero touchdowns with two interceptions)

[yachties23]

James Harrison continues to be the NFLs model citizen....

[Mikey202]

James Harrison continues to be the NFLs model citizen....

Hey...he said he was sorry to Colt a couple of plays later.:)

[yachties23]

Maybe thats why I'll never understand Steeler fans. I wouldn't even joke about a guy on my team who has a history of blatant dirty cheap shots with intent to cause injury, or support a QB who has a shady off field history at best.

Its hysterical that they always talk about the ownership as classy and a first rate organization, yet look at the product on the field.


Hey...he said he was sorry to Colt a couple of plays later.:)

[yourchoice]

Steelers = Dirtiest team in the NFL, IMHO. It's like they teach their players to NOT wrap their arms.

[BHalbrooks]

Harrison always whines about getting fined, but absolutely rips heads off...
I feel as if most of the new rules this Season had him and Suh in mind. Just my opinion.

[yachties23]

He actually laughed about it on his twitter.


The guy is a joke, and once the NFL tests for HGH he will be gone.

You don't go from a 230 LB practice squad guy to a 255 LB wrecking machine made of steel at age 26 without a little help.

[waffle]

He actually laughed about it on his twitter.


The guy is a joke, and once the NFL tests for HGH he will be gone.

You don't go from a 230 LB practice squad guy to a 255 LB wrecking machine made of steel at age 26 without a little help.

Or a lot of hard work and complete, free access to a top-notch strength & conditioning coach with every piece of workout gear in the world... Just saying with enough motivation and a guy telling you exactly what to eat & drink and how to work out, its amazing what you can accomplish.

[yourchoice]

Or a lot of hard work and complete, free access to a top-notch strength & conditioning coach with every piece of workout gear in the world... Just saying with enough motivation and a guy telling you exactly what to eat & drink and how to work out, its amazing what you can accomplish.

People argued the same thing for all of the 50+ HR hitters in baseball ten years ago. We all know how that turned out.

[yachties23]

Oh to view the world through a pair of black and yellow glasses....


Or a lot of hard work and complete, free access to a top-notch strength & conditioning coach with every piece of workout gear in the world... Just saying with enough motivation and a guy telling you exactly what to eat & drink and how to work out, its amazing what you can accomplish.

[Parshooter]

Well Harrison got a 1 game suspension for his hit on McCoy. We'll see if that changes his MO. Doubt it.

[chippewastud79]

Oh to view the world through a pair of black and yellow glasses....

;sHe is definitely not a Steelers fan, in fact that assertion is laughable. :r

[yachties23]

Well than I apologize, doesn't change the fact that my statement is true.

[waffle]

Well than I apologize, doesn't change the fact that my statement is true.

Its true because you believe it.

Oh to view the world through a pair of black and yellow glasses....

I, in fact, HATE the Steelers, I was born and raised as a Bengals fan (despite the ownership having no love for me as a fan, I still love the team), however, one has to respect the hard work and dedication that is given day in and day out to put your body on the line for the entertainment of a country. Look, I wish I could say I thought the guy was using PEDs, I really do, nothing would make me happier than calling the dude a cheater, but I just don't see it as the truth. Truth is, the guy was making like $5,200/wk on p-squad, while nice, gave him the ability to train his balls off... A guy like Harrison doesn't seem like the type to want to put PEDs in his body, he looks like the type that wants to do it himself just to say he did when he's ripping heads off of players.. but then again, he can prove me wrong, so that's just my :2

People argued the same thing for all of the 50+ HR hitters in baseball ten years ago. We all know how that turned out.

Ryan Howard hits 58 hrs, is he using??? Albert Belle, Greg Vaughn, Jim Thome, Prince Fielder, Cecil Fielder, Brady Anderson, Ken Griffey, Jr., Andruw Jones... etc, for the 3 you speak of, I just gave you 9 that didn't so the argument there is that because there are a couple of bad apples, the whole bunch is spoiled is not true. I agree that the possibility exists that players in the NFL are getting away with PED usage (Brian Cushing), but I don't think that just because a guy goes from p-squad to the team because he realized he was too small to play LB in the NFL is a reason to instantly assume he was using. Almost every player that leaves college and makes it to the NFL bulks up or shapes up or trims down when given the opportunity to meet with coaches whose sole jobs are to help them do just that. ****, give me a conditioning coach 5 days a week all year round and I bet I could get into football shape as well... oh yeah and then I get a salary for doing it... thats just gravy!

[yourchoice]

Ryan Howard hits 58 hrs, is he using??? Albert Belle, Greg Vaughn, Jim Thome, Prince Fielder, Cecil Fielder, Brady Anderson, Ken Griffey, Jr., Andruw Jones... etc, for the 3 you speak of, I just gave you 9 that didn't so the argument there is that because there are a couple of bad apples, the whole bunch is spoiled is not true.
You can't say those 9 "didn't". You gave me nine that either a) didn't use, b) weren't caught or c) weren't tested since MLB didn't start testing until 2004. More than likely, either a) or c). Anyone who's career ended before 2004 is suspect, in my eyes. There's a reason they call it the "Steroid Era". And you seriously don't think it's likely that Brady Anderson used PEDs? He's one of the posterboys, IMO. And I realize I set the barometer at 50+ HRs. My bad. A guy that went from averaging 3 HRs/yr to 20/yr is just as suspect.

I agree that the possibility exists that players in the NFL are getting away with PED usage (Brian Cushing), but I don't think that just because a guy goes from p-squad to the team because he realized he was too small to play LB in the NFL is a reason to instantly assume he was using. Almost every player that leaves college and makes it to the NFL bulks up or shapes up or trims down when given the opportunity to meet with coaches whose sole jobs are to help them do just that. ****, give me a conditioning coach 5 days a week all year round and I bet I could get into football shape as well... oh yeah and then I get a salary for doing it... thats just gravy!

I don't disagree it's possible, even likely, that Harrison doesn't use. Most players probably don't. My point was how many times did we hear "hard work", "training" and "eating right" from baseball players in the 90s and early 00s? A TON. It turned out a lot of it was BS.

All of this doesn't change the fact that Harrison is one of the dirtiest, non-arm-wrapping tacklers in the NFL.

[yachties23]

Personally I hate the steelers, and the team as a whole is loaded with dirty players, so yes my opinion is biased. Truth be told the NFL is very Lax on their PED testing. Yes guys get caught occasionally, but you can not tell me there aren't guys doing stuff either that can't be tested for, or even worse, know when they are going to be tested.

And I'm not saying a guy can't get in shape, but lets face it he went from practice squad, to defensive MVP in one season. That doesn't happen, ever. To anyone.

and by the way LOL at Albert Belle and Brady Anderson being on your list of guys who didn't use. Neither was ever tested.

[chippewastud79]

Truth be told the NFL is very Lax on their PED testing. Yes guys get caught occasionally, but you can not tell me there aren't guys doing stuff either that can't be tested for, or even worse, know when they are going to be tested.



Actually the NFL has one of the strictest PED testing policies of all sports and probably the strickest of the major 4 in America, with probably the biggest list of banned substances.

And as far as stuff that isn't tested for, the only thing I am aware of is HGH because there isn't a reliable test that doesn't involve getting blood drawn, and even that one is not proven to be 100% accurate.

Knowing when they are going to be tested is not an issue either, every Monday after a game a random sample from every team is tested as soon as they show up to the facility, with no way to anticipate if they are on the list. There are also random drug screenings in the off-season where you have 24 hours to appear at the closest testing facility. Failure to take any drug test within the prescribed time results in a positive test.

Now street drugs are a different story, but cocaine and marijuana aren't exactly helping people catch touchdowns or sack the QB. ;)

I realize most of your statements stem from your hatred of James Harrison and the Steelers in general, but they are not entirely correct. :2

[yachties23]

Hatred is such a strong word, but yes I am biased. This is America where the court of public opinion rules, and just based off what I see on the field, and the issues with his character, yes I'm going to assume he cheats. If that makes me a bad person, or judge-mental, so be it.




Actually the NFL has one of the strictest PED testing policies of all sports and probably the strickest of the major 4 in America, with probably the biggest list of banned substances.

And as far as stuff that isn't tested for, the only thing I am aware of is HGH because there isn't a reliable test that doesn't involve getting blood drawn, and even that one is not proven to be 100% accurate.

Knowing when they are going to be tested is not an issue either, every Monday after a game a random sample from every team is tested as soon as they show up to the facility, with no way to anticipate if they are on the list. There are also random drug screenings in the off-season where you have 24 hours to appear at the closest testing facility. Failure to take any drug test within the prescribed time results in a positive test.

Now street drugs are a different story, but cocaine and marijuana aren't exactly helping people catch touchdowns or sack the QB. ;)

I realize most of your statements stem from your hatred of James Harrison and the Steelers in general, but they are not entirely correct. :2

[shilala]

Maybe thats why I'll never understand Steeler fans. I wouldn't even joke about a guy on my team who has a history of blatant dirty cheap shots with intent to cause injury, or support a QB who has a shady off field history at best.

Its hysterical that they always talk about the ownership as classy and a first rate organization, yet look at the product on the field.

I went back and forth and read your statements you've made, and have seen that what you consider to be true and what actually is true don't necessarily have anything at all to do with each other, but I'll let you know what the Steeler Nation thought about Big Ben.

There's not a single Steeler fan who wasn't shocked when he hit the field this year. The fans almost unanimously expected (and wanted) to see him gone. The fact that he's still there attests to the Rooney family. The fans trust them because they have taken care of us, and have set the highest standards in the NFL for generations. I can trust that they left no stone unturned and know the full truth of all Ben's transgressions. I can assure you there are many more you haven't heard about, and that the organization has since reigned him in. Despite that, he remains on thin ice.
If the Rooney's kept him and are willing to vouch for him and work with him to make an outstanding human out of him, I've got to be behind them.

So far as Harrison goes, he doesn't have a lot of fans among Steeler followers. He's an asshole. He's got a big mouth, no respect, and isn't getting any love whatsoever.
The hit on Colt McCoy was inexcusable. I think a game's suspension is too light, and if he was gone for the rest of the year, it'd suit me fine. I'm hoping he's dealt away in the offseason, but I don't think he will be. I think he's going to be approached the same way Ben was. He'll fall in line, clean up his act, or they'll see to it that he's gone. He won't be the first top-notch linebacker with a bad attitude we've dealt away.

If you actually knew anything about what Steeler fans think, you'd know these things. And you'd understand what's behind a joke if someone makes a joke (and I'm not sure what the "joke" reference was).
If you knew anything about Harrison, you'd laugh at yourself about the HGH assertion. It doesn't even remotely make sense.

[chippewastud79]

Hatred is such a strong word, but yes I am biased. This is America where the court of public opinion rules, and just based off what I see on the field, and the issues with his character, yes I'm going to assume he cheats. If that makes me a bad person, or judge-mental, so be it.

You were using Harrison as an example of the lax enforcement on the performance-enhancing drug testing policies of the NFL. Whether or not he takes them (or may ever be caught), the fact is, the league is one of the most oft tested and stringent in their testing of the major sports. :2

[yourchoice]

The fact that he's still there attests to the Rooney family. The fans trust them because they have taken care of us, and have set the highest standards in the NFL for generations. I can trust that they left no stone unturned and know the full truth of all Ben's transgressions. I can assure you there are many more you haven't heard about, and that the organization has since reigned him in. Despite that, he remains on thin ice.
If the Rooney's kept him and are willing to vouch for him and work with him to make an outstanding human out of him, I've got to be behind them.


I'm sorry Scott, but I think "the Rooney family setting the highest standards" is hogwash. They've done a good job painting that picture, but their actions don't match their words. Some examples:
Najeh Davenport - charged with child endangerment and unlawful restraint. He was cut (Way to go Rooney!!!). But when the Steelers needed help at RB 3 months later...well, let's bring him back (He's reformed!!!!).
Cedric Wilson vs. James Harrison - within 1 1/2 weeks of each other, both were charged with domestic abuse. One was cut the other retained. Double standard?
Santonio Holmes - was permitted three or four strikes before he was traded.
Jeff Reed - First charged with disorderly conduct and criminal mischief, and later on a seperate instance, charged with resisting arrest, simple assault, disorderly conduct, and public drunkenness. Grounds for cutting, or at least not resigning? No, he kicked the ball well at Heinz field, so they slapped the franchise tag on him and paid him close to $3M after those incendents.
Ben Rothlesberger - don't even have to go there.

Most of this is all since 2008...3+ years! "Highest Standard" my ass.

And this is all of the off-field stuff. It's the way they play that makes me call them dirty. All teams have off the field issues, but the Rooney family shouldn't act like they hold their players to a higher standard when their actions clearly show they don't.

[Resipsa]

but I'll let you know what the Steeler Nation thought about Big Ben.

There's not a single Steeler fan who wasn't shocked when he hit the field this year. .

Sorry Scott, but all you have to do to see that that statement is not true is go read the Steeler thread right here on CA.

Without even going back and looking I can think of at least Loki on this forum and Mikey too I believe who defended Rothlisberger through hell and high water, regardless of the evidence of the things he's done off the field.

;s;s

[shilala]

Sorry Scott, but all you have to do to see that that statement is not true is go read the Steeler thread right here on CA.

Without even going back and looking I can think of at least Loki on this forum and Mikey too I believe who defended Rothlisberger through hell and high water, regardless of the evidence of the things he's done off the field.

;s;s
You make me cry, Vic.
As with everything, there's nothing black and white. It's good you guys took up for him. I sure didn't. I still don't. Everyone I know still says stuff like "the raper had a nice game today". He certainly isn't loved like he used to be. You can hear him referred to as the raper on the radio even now.
My statements do convey the sentiments of the biggest percentage of the population of Steelers fans in Burgh and outside of Burgh. I get it from reading every single day and listening to the radio every day.
My stepdaughter's last boyfriend helped throw Ben off their golf course for pissing on the green. Small world, ya know? I guess I hear a lot more of it from being right in it (even though I've been in Cleveland for a year). There's nothing that happens with the players that doesn't get spread far and wide REAL fast.

I've been trying to think of one single person here, back home, or down in Burgh that took up for Ben the last time he got in trouble, and the whole time I've been typing I still came up with no one. Except you traitors. :lr

[Resipsa]

I might not have been clear Scott. I don't defend Rothlisberger at all. It's pretty clear in my mind what I believe the evidence to show.

I was just making the point that not all Steeler fans were shocked to see him back on the field.

Unfortunately every team has fans who'll defend to the death the players on their team , no matter what they did. I'll bet Rae Carruth still has his defenders amongst Carolina fans.

You watch the tape, it's pretty clear that Harrison went right for another head shot, so his lies won't get him anywhere. Whether the rules are right or wrong they're the rules, and when you repeatedly show that you're going to ignore the rules and just do whatever the hell you want, what's the league supposed to do?

Clothslining people used to be legal too, maybe we should still allow that.. We don't want to sissify the game too much after all.

[shilala]

I'm sorry Scott, but I think "the Rooney family setting the highest standards" is hogwash. They've done a good job painting that picture, but their actions don't match their words. Some examples:
Najeh Davenport - charged with child endangerment and unlawful restraint. He was cut (Way to go Rooney!!!). But when the Steelers needed help at RB 3 months later...well, let's bring him back (He's reformed!!!!).
Cedric Wilson vs. James Harrison - within 1 1/2 weeks of each other, both were charged with domestic abuse. One was cut the other retained. Double standard?
Santonio Holmes - was permitted three or four strikes before he was traded.
Jeff Reed - First charged with disorderly conduct and criminal mischief, and later on a seperate instance, charged with resisting arrest, simple assault, disorderly conduct, and public drunkenness. Grounds for cutting, or at least not resigning? No, he kicked the ball well at Heinz field, so they slapped the franchise tag on him and paid him close to $3M after those incendents.
Ben Rothlesberger - don't even have to go there.

Most of this is all since 2008...3+ years! "Highest Standard" my ass.

And this is all of the off-field stuff. It's the way they play that makes me call them dirty. All teams have off the field issues, but the Rooney family shouldn't act like they hold their players to a higher standard when their actions clearly show they don't.

Joel, if you take a look at what's happened and is happening in the front office and the ownership of the Steelers since July of 2008, you'll understand exactly why that kind of bullshit has happened, and continues to happen.
You'll also find that Art Rooney II has been heading up day to day since then (or thereabouts) and it was Dan Rooney prior to him who didn't put up with any nonsense.
You'll also find that Art Jr. was fired by Dan in the past. They bump heads because Art Jr. is a dick.
So with all the insquabbling and politicing and major money, disinterested owners, half the family bailing out, the Steelers are now a business instead of a family operation, or more aptly a business trying to look like they are a family operation to maximze the price of the team until the sale all shakes out.

So I'll take one for instance. Harrison vs. Wilson.
Wilson got dumped to make a statement, but Harrison's business value was greater and overrode the committment to "not tolerating domestic violence".

I guess, after looking at the whole picture, you got me.
I should have said "The Rooney Family used to set the highest standards". They certainly haven't done things the way they used to over the last few years.

One last thing, Joel...
Why they slapped the franchise tag on Skippy instead of running him out of town, only to cut him , it's a complete mystery to me. I never chased down the reasons, but it had to boil down to money.
Does one single iota of that situation make any sense to you? Me neither. Add to that he was drunk all the time and he sucked. Sofaman and I talked hours on Skippy and have yet to shed any kind of sensible light on that whole thing. It's just nuts.

[shilala]

You watch the tape, it's pretty clear that Harrison went right for another head shot, so his lies won't get him anywhere. Whether the rules are right or wrong they're the rules, and when you repeatedly show that you're going to ignore the rules and just do whatever the hell you want, what's the league supposed to do?

I hear ya, brother. And to waste a kid like Colt McCoy, really? For what?
Harrison, like I said before, is an asshole. He's got no problem with letting everyone know he's an asshole. He just opens his mouth and it falls out.
He got suspended for one game and they denied his appeal. He could care less. James Harrison is his own biggest fan, he doesn't care about what impact it has on the club. He's the James Harrison island.
I'm sad he's not gone for the year. It'd make for a better locker room and a big sigh of relief from the players.
He'll redeem himself with his play again and everyone will forget they can't stand him. I think he likes it that way.
Personally I just hope he gets sent to Dallas.
I'd trade him for a pair of mediocre guards or a good left gaurd in a heartbeat, that's what we need. And I'd love to see Matt Flynn throwing the ball in Pittsburgh. Ben would do well in a Bengals jersey.

[yachties23]

Sorry for making this an anti-steeler thread. Wasn't really my intention. I think we all like rough, physical, hard hitting football. Honestly there aren't better games than the in division games where every play is a highlight reel hit.

I think we are all in agreement, that Harrison's hit on McCoy was totally dirty, and in the continuing string of cheap shots. I've seen people defend him, in this very thread, I've see his twitter account quoted basically laughing it off, and worse of all I've see the league just continue to allow this to happen. In my mind one game wasn't enough, hes a repeat offender who will continue to push the envelope.

Also I wasn't wrong on the lax testing for HGH. The NFL has been trying to get something on the books, but as of right now has nothing. Even the US congress was trying to get involved in implementation, but where do we stand? No testing.

So again I stand in the court of public opinion; Whats your take on James Harrison?

Things we know
- Practice squad player, suddenly gains 10 percent of his body weight and becomes the NFL defensive MVP in one season
- Constantly dishing out illegal hits, even after being warned
- Has off the field domestic assault issue
- Bad mouths entire team, league, and Goddell in Mens health interview

Do I know for sure he took HGH? Nope not at all but look at this. The guy has zero respect for other players, his teammates and the league. Lets face it the reason this thread was created is because last season this guy saw fit to take two massively cheap helmet to helmet cheap shots in the same week. So yeah, I'm not going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Stephen]

I agree that the possibility exists that players in the NFL are getting away with PED usage (Brian Cushing)
Almost positive (pun intended) he was given a four game suspension for testing positive for a masking agent last year.

[Stephen]

I went back and forth and read your statements you've made, and have seen that what you consider to be true and what actually is true don't necessarily have anything at all to do with each other, but I'll let you know what the Steeler Nation thought about Big Ben.

There's not a single Steeler fan who wasn't shocked when he hit the field this year. The fans almost unanimously expected (and wanted) to see him gone. The fact that he's still there attests to the Rooney family. The fans trust them because they have taken care of us, and have set the highest standards in the NFL for generations. I can trust that they left no stone unturned and know the full truth of all Ben's transgressions. I can assure you there are many more you haven't heard about, and that the organization has since reigned him in. Despite that, he remains on thin ice.
If the Rooney's kept him and are willing to vouch for him and work with him to make an outstanding human out of him, I've got to be behind them.
But if you're a Super Bowl MVP wide receiver who likes weed, your ass gotta go. Ben Roethlisberger is a Steeler for one reason (and a damn fine one); top ten quarterbacks don't grow on trees, and the Steelers aren't competing for Lombardi Trophies without him.

[Stephen]

Things we know
- Practice squad player, suddenly gains 10 percent of his body weight and becomes the NFL defensive MVP in one season
Then you don't know Jack. Look, I'm no fan of Silverback, but what you're saying is plain nonsense. Here's a picture of him in NFL Europe in 2004:
http://insidetheiggles.com/files/2011/06/nfl-europe-warner-harrison.jpg

Here he is in 2005 when he tackled the Cleveland Browns fan:
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0123/nfl_g_harrison_fan_600.jpg

And finally here he is during his interception return in the Super Bowl against the Cardinals, the year he won the DPOY (where you claim he packed on 10% of his bodyweight in one offseason).
http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/0203/nfl_u_jharrison_600.jpg

In any of those pictures that span over a four year period does he look noticeably larger.


Finally, although by no means scientific, his listed playing weight going all the way back to his Senior season at Kent State has always been around 240 lbs.

[yachties23]

I could be wrong on the weight thing, looks like he was listed at 238-240 in his days at kent state and the highest I've seen him listed in the NFL is 250, currently listed at 242.

But, cut 4 times by the steelers, sent to lawlnfleurope, and all of a sudden beast mode... begs the question...

I'm not saying people can't become better players, it happens all the time. But a guy cut from an NFL roster 4 times, usually doesn't become the Defensive MVP of the league.


Then you don't know Jack. Look, I'm no fan of Silverback, but what you're saying is plain nonsense. Here's a picture of him in NFL Europe in 2004:
http://insidetheiggles.com/files/2011/06/nfl-europe-warner-harrison.jpg

Here he is in 2005 when he tackled the Cleveland Browns fan:
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0123/nfl_g_harrison_fan_600.jpg

And finally here he is during his interception return in the Super Bowl against the Cardinals, the year he won the DPOY (where you claim he packed on 10% of his bodyweight in one offseason).
http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/0203/nfl_u_jharrison_600.jpg

In any of those pictures that span over a four year period does he look noticeably larger.


Finally, although by no means scientific, his listed playing weight going all the way back to his Senior season at Kent State has always been around 240 lbs.

[shilala]

On the other side of the ball, we have Kurt Warner.
Wasn't he packing groceries before he came and won a Super Bowl?

[Stephen]

I could be wrong on the weight thing, looks like he was listed at 238-240 in his days at kent state and the highest I've seen him listed in the NFL is 250, currently listed at 242.

But, cut 4 times by the steelers, sent to lawlnfleurope, and all of a sudden beast mode... begs the question...

I'm not saying people can't become better players, it happens all the time. But a guy cut from an NFL roster 4 times, usually doesn't become the Defensive MVP of the league.
Well, he didn't even start in the NFL until 2007, in which he garnered first team all-pro honors. He sat behind Joey Porter for what, three seasons I think (help me out here Steelers fans) a damn fine linebacker in his own right. Then in 2008 he won the DPOY award. From everything I've ever heard about him, his physical skills were never a question; it's the age old, "million dollar body, ten cent head condition." He's been in the same system long enough that it's not an issue, but I bet he'd struggle mightily if he ever finds himself playing on another team that runs a variant of the 3-4 that he's not accustomed to (like the Texans for instance under Wade Phillips). If he were doing/saying the things he did without his success, people would think him a moron. But because of his successes, he's, "eccentric.":)

[Stephen]

On the other side of the ball, we have Kurt Warner.
Wasn't he packing groceries before he came and won a Super Bowl?
And a couple of MVP awards, and a legit shot at the HOF. I know he was cut by the Packers, and was let go early in a Bears training camp because of a spider bite, and was cut by the Rams, too (but that was after he had already led them to two Super Bowls).

[shilala]

Here it is...
Undrafted in 94, stocked shelves at HyVee grocery store for $5.50 an hour.
Tried out for the Packers in 94, was released.
Arena Football in 95, 96 and 97.
97 he was to tryout for the Bears but got bit by a spider on his throwing elbow on his honeymoon. That nixed that.
In 97, he got God, and things started changing.
In 98 he got signed by the Rams and got sent to Europe to play, then third string at St Louis behind Tony Banks and Steve Bono.
In 99 he was 2nd string, Trent Green tore up his ACL, and Warner became NFL MVP and Super Bowl MVP.
In 2000 he broke his hand midway through the season, his interceptions went up, and they got beat in the wild card round.
2001 he was MVP again and lost the Super Bowl.
etc.

Man, I love that story. What a show that Rams offense was. Rodger's run this year looks a lot like it, but the Rams were different. Rodgers is precision perfect almost all the time. Warner was just different. He kept you on the edge of your seat, breathless. Maybe cause you didn't know what was next. With Rodgers you always know what's next. More perfection. :tu

[shilala]

But because of his successes, he's, "eccentric.":)
I use "asshole", but I get your drift. :lr

[Stephen]

Here it is...
Undrafted in 94, stocked shelves at HyVee grocery store for $5.50 an hour.
Tried out for the Packers in 94, was released.
Arena Football in 95, 96 and 97.
97 he was to tryout for the Bears but got bit by a spider on his throwing elbow on his honeymoon. That nixed that.
In 97, he got God, and things started changing.
In 98 he got signed by the Rams and got sent to Europe to play, then third string at St Louis behind Tony Banks and Steve Bono.
In 99 he was 2nd string, Trent Green tore up his ACL, and Warner became NFL MVP and Super Bowl MVP.
In 2000 he broke his hand midway through the season, his interceptions went up, and they got beat in the wild card round.
2001 he was MVP again and lost the Super Bowl.
etc.

Man, I love that story. What a show that Rams offense was. Rodger's run this year looks a lot like it, but the Rams were different. Rodgers is precision perfect almost all the time. Warner was just different. He kept you on the edge of your seat, breathless. Maybe cause you didn't know what was next. With Rodgers you always know what's next. More perfection. :tu
Objectively speaking, overall that Rams offense was better because of Marshall Faulk. The Packers have nothing remotely close to a player that can do what he did. That said, I'll take Rodgers & the Packers wide receiver corps (including tight ends) over the Rams anyday of the week. The Packers win by sheer numbers, as they have six legit targets at Rodgers disposal, whereas Warner really only had Bruce/Holt/Hakim/Proehl and the aforementioned Faulk.

[chippewastud79]

Also I wasn't wrong on the lax testing for HGH. The NFL has been trying to get something on the books, but as of right now has nothing. Even the US congress was trying to get involved in implementation, but where do we stand? No testing.



Which pro sport tests for HGH? And what is the reliable test for it? There are none. The NFL is no more lax on their testing policy of HGH than any other major sport. They test more often and for more items than any other of the major sports. I realize this is all based on James Harrison, but the league is doing more than any other sport to prevent PED use. :2

[Resipsa]

But if you're a Super Bowl MVP wide receiver who likes weed, your ass gotta go. Ben Roethlisberger is a Steeler for one reason (and a damn fine one); top ten quarterbacks don't grow on trees, and the Steelers aren't competing for Lombardi Trophies without him.

If Rothisberger is a top ten QB, and I'm not even willing to concede THAT, the only reason is most QBs in the league right now are about as good as Curtis Painter, in other words they blow.

The Steelers win in spite of him, not because of him.. He's more Mark Sanchez than he is Peyton Manning

[shilala]

Objectively speaking, overall that Rams offense was better because of Marshall Faulk. The Packers have nothing remotely close to a player that can do what he did. That said, I'll take Rodgers & the Packers wide receiver corps (including tight ends) over the Rams anyday of the week. The Packers win by sheer numbers, as they have six legit targets at Rodgers disposal, whereas Warner really only had Bruce/Holt/Hakim/Proehl and the aforementioned Faulk.
And even with that short core of receivers, in '09 the Rams went for 5,232 yards in the air.
It's the NFL single season team record.
The Pack has 3,960 yards in the air right now with 3 games in hand and a 27th ranked running game.

[Resipsa]

I. Don't know if Harrison is on the juice or HGH or not.

I do know he has a freakish bony head, just like Barry, and that is a prime sign of HGH abuse.

[chippewastud79]

If Rothisberger is a top ten QB, and I'm not even willing to concede THAT, the only reason is most QBs in the league right now are about as good as Curtis Painter, in other words they blow.

The Steelers win in spite of him, not because of him.. He's more Mark Sanchez than he is Peyton Manning

;s :tpd:

He's the 3rd best QB in his division, and Colt McCoy could be pretty daggum good if he had a bit of an OL to keep him clean. He is a heck of a game manager and a big body, but the team could win with most QB's under center. This is certainly not a Peyton Manning effect, where they would be 0'fer without him. ;)

[Stephen]

;s :tpd:

He's the 3rd best QB in his division, and Colt McCoy could be pretty daggum good if he had a bit of an OL to keep him clean. He is a heck of a game manager and a big body, but the team could win with most QB's under center. This is certainly not a Peyton Manning effect, where they would be 0'fer without him. ;)
Wow. Just wow...

[Stephen]

If Rothisberger is a top ten QB, and I'm not even willing to concede THAT, the only reason is most QBs in the league right now are about as good as Curtis Painter, in other words they blow.

The Steelers win in spite of him, not because of him.. He's more Mark Sanchez than he is Peyton Manning
Please list ten quarterbacks better than Ben Roethlisberger than are playing right now. This should be good.:)

[chippewastud79]

Please list ten quarterbacks better than Ben Roethlisberger than are playing right now. This should be good.:)

Brady
Manning
Rodgers
Ryan
Rivers
Flacco
Dalton
Newton
Stafford
Brees
Romo
Tebow ;)

Not playing, but still better:
Schaub
Manning

:2

[Mikey202]

Sorry Scott, but all you have to do to see that that statement is not true is go read the Steeler thread right here on CA.

Without even going back and looking I can think of at least Loki on this forum and Mikey too I believe who defended Rothlisberger through hell and high water, regardless of the evidence of the things he's done off the field.


As far as joking about Harrisons hit, I wasn't. If you watched the game, he did go over to McCoy and say he was sorry, or my bad, whatever.

As far as, "defending" Rothlisberger, I come from the position of a realist.

Big Ben was at a party with women over the age of 18. These women, according to the article that I read in Sports Illustrated, were walking around with R.T.F. name badges on,( If you don't know what that means it means Ready To Fuc*). It's not like he was in some alleyway, scoping out women. What happened is what happened. I don't condone rape, rapists or sexual deviants.Evidence? If it was factual than why is he not in jail? Someone got paid off. NFL players go to jail don't they? And is he the first to not go when there was "evidence". Won't even start on Ray Lewis's case.

IMHO, he is stupid to put himself in that situation, again, and again. He was never charged with a crime. If he commited a crime and paid people off, then what are you going to do about it? Money is power. There are bad people in the world.

I would think that if this happened to one of my daughters, I wouldn't take all the money in the world to keep quiet. If people where paid off, then shame on them, for selling their daughters off like pimps.

My final statement on Big Ben is this, based on people that I have personally talked with. Those people being a life long friend who is a veteran Pittsburgh Police /SWAT Sniper, and from 2 hour conversation I had 4 summers ago with the Pittsburgh Steeler events coordinator, standing outside Hienz Field.
Big Ben as a person is very suspect, and an arrogant azzhole.
He likes to party, he likes to do things his way. They paid him alot of money, and to pay him that money, they took money from alot of people in the front office, and office staff salaries. So he's not very popular. He seems to have matured or changed. Don't know. I don't hang out with him.
I wanted him to be traded, they didn't. So being that, I want him to win football games for my football team.
When he retires, he can take his Motorcycle and drive it into a bridge support at 220 mph for all I care.

As for James Harrison, he plays with the same attitude as some of the Great defensive players now in the Hall of Fame. If you don't think that players like Deacon Jones, Jack Lambert, Mean Joe Greene, Lawence Taylor, Dick Butkus, Ronnie Lott, Ray Nitschke, ect. didn't play with the attitude, of outright hurting the guy on the other side of the ball and enjoyed playing that way, then do yourself a huge favor, before you watch another football game. Go and read or watch some of the interviews with these players.

The game is changing. Coach Tomlin even said Harrison has to change, or he won't play.

I worked with a guy who's brother played Offensive line in the NFL back in the day. He said,It was a standing order from the coaching staff, that when they played against Lyle Alzado, they where to try and blow his knee out. And they had no problem trying to complete that mission.

Football his a violent sport, played by people. And guess what, some of those people are bad human beings. And another fact is not all of them, play or have played for the Pittsburgh Steelers. The latest being, wannabe Scarface, Sam Hurd.

IMHO the helmet to helmet/ concussion / player safety issue was never a big deal until the family of Mike Webster, ( God forbid,a HOF Steeler) sued the NFL on the basis players, were being used and abused for the game/profit/$$$ and the NFL basically not giving a sh*t, about them in thier later years and the players union got involved, also.Somone correct me if I'm mistaken. The NFL is more worried about liability. If they weren't, this would have been and issue decades ago.

For the record, I don't want to see anyone disabled, hurt for life. I'm not apologizing for being a Steeler fan , and supporting the players who play for my team.
As for the insinuation that I'm morally inept, for doing so. Well, ya'll can get down off your moral high-horse and kiss my Black and Gold azz.

[yourchoice]

As for James Harrison, he plays with the same attitude as some of the Great defensive players now in the Hall of Fame. If you don't think that players like Deacon Jones, Jack Lambert, Mean Joe Greene, Lawence Taylor, Dick Butkus, Ronnie Lott, Ray Nitschke, ect. didn't play with the attitude, of outright hurting the guy on the other side of the ball and enjoyed playing that way, then do yourself a huge favor, before you watch another football game. Go and read or watch some of the interviews with these players.


Playing with attitude is great. I wish more Eagles did! :r I just think the consistent lack of form tackling makes him...and many other players (many Steelers, but certainly not just Steelers) seem like cheap shot artists. Wrap your friggin' arms, and you won't look like you're trying to spear and injure every damn player you tackle! Here's three photos...see the difference?
http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/james-harrison-hit-to-head-of-colt-mccoy.jpg
http://leeinks.weei.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Brady_Tom-hit-by-Ray-Lewis.jpg
http://cdn.bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0399/8844/116244_crop_340x234.jpg

[Resipsa]

Brady
Manning
Rodgers
Ryan
Rivers
Flacco
Dalton
Newton
Stafford
Brees
Romo
Tebow ;)

Not playing, but still better:
Schaub
Manning

:2
I'd say fairly accurate:tu

[Stephen]

Brady
Manning
Rodgers
Ryan
Rivers
Flacco
Dalton
Newton
Stafford
Brees
Romo
Tebow ;)

Not playing, but still better:
Schaub
Manning

:2
The fact that you list two rookie quarterbacks (and Tebow jokingly) that have done jack squat in this league tells me all I need to know. Probably best to save that two cents to put towards buying yourself a clue.

[Stephen]

I'd say fairly accurate:tu
I'd say people have a hard time separating Ben Roethlisberger the NFL quarterback from Ben Roethlisberger the human being.

[Resipsa]

I'd say people have a hard time separating Ben Roethlisberger the NFL quarterback from Ben Roethlisberger the human being.

Not really Stephen.

We all have our perceptions of what makes a great QB. I AM NOT a fan of game manager Qbs. Just not.

I've never, and doubt I'll ever, seen, or heard anyone say, "wow, what a great throw" when referring to Rothlisberger. To me he's just another version of Trent Dilfer or Mark Sanchez, or any one of a number of qbs who benefit from the team, particularly the defense around them. None of them are ever going to WIN a game for you, ttheyre r just asked not to lose the game for the team. to me,mthe former is what makes a great NFL qb

[Stephen]

Not really Stephen.

We all have our perceptions of what makes a great QB. I AM NOT a fan of game manager Qbs. Just not.

I've never, and doubt I'll ever, seen, or heard anyone say, "wow, what a great throw" when referring to Rothlisberger. To me he's just another version of Trent Dilfer or Mark Sanchez, or any one of a number of qbs who benefit from the team, particularly the defense around them. None of them are ever going to WIN a game for you, ttheyre r just asked not to lose the game for the team. to me,mthe former is what makes a great NFL qb
And to that I'll simply say to put on the game tape on of Super Bowl XLIII and fast forward to about three minutes to go in the game. Game managers don't drive 88 yards in two minutes to win the Super Bowl. While he no doubt benefits from having had a great defense nearly his entire career, I've watched on more than one occasion as he bailed them out. The game against the Packers in 2009 immediately comes to mind. When I see a completion percentage and YPA where they're at (both elite, and both good indicators of quarterback play), I'm sorry, I don't see a game manager.

[yachties23]

I absolutely agree with you 100 percent.

Ben is not a game manager. The first superbowl win over the seahawks, he was more a hindrence than help, in fact the refs were more helpful to the steelers that day. But in the second superbowl, he proved that he is a top notch qb.

One of my friends always asks me if you could have a quarterback for:
1 play
1 game
1 season
who would they be?

1 Play is Ben. he has the ability to extend plays, and take broken plays and turn them into huge gains.
1 Game, used to be Brady, could be Eli, its a toss up.. I think both guys give their teams chances to win every week.
1 Season Right now its between Rodgers and Brees. I mean Rodgers is on fire, but how could you possibly keep Brees out of that argument.


Anyways, I agree, Ben is easily in the top 10 QBs in the league. In his early years he had the benefit of having a stud D, and great running game. But look at the Steelers now. They are definitely a pass first team, and most of that falls on Ben.


And to that I'll simply say to put on the game tape on of Super Bowl XLIII and fast forward to about three minutes to go in the game. Game managers don't drive 88 yards in two minutes to win the Super Bowl. While he no doubt benefits from having had a great defense nearly his entire career, I've watched on more than one occasion as he bailed them out. The game against the Packers in 2009 immediately comes to mind. When I see a completion percentage and YPA where they're at (both elite, and both good indicators of quarterback play), I'm sorry, I don't see a game manager.

[chippewastud79]

The fact that you list two rookie quarterbacks (and Tebow jokingly) that have done jack squat in this league tells me all I need to know. Probably best to save that two cents to put towards buying yourself a clue.

There are 14 QB's on the list, take out the two rookies and Tebow and there are still 11 in front, remove the two on IR and then he falls in at #10. ;s

[chippewastud79]

I'd say people have a hard time separating Ben Roethlisberger the NFL quarterback from Ben Roethlisberger the human being.

I'd say people have a tough time separating the hype and how much of a 'tough guy' he is, from his skill as a QB vs. managing games. Hell, Tebow wins games, Sanchez wins games, come thru in the clutch, but I am sure that you won't concede that either of them are better or even equivalent QB's in your eyes. That and Steeler fandom probably vaults him ahead of a few guys too. ;)

[Resipsa]

And to that I'll simply say to put on the game tape on of Super Bowl XLIII and fast forward to about three minutes to go in the game. Game managers don't drive 88 yards in two minutes to win the Super Bowl. While he no doubt benefits from having had a great defense nearly his entire career, I've watched on more than one occasion as he bailed them out. The game against the Packers in 2009 immediately comes to mind. When I see a completion percentage and YPA where they're at (both elite, and both good indicators of quarterback play), I'm sorry, I don't see a game manager.

If you really believe pointing to one or two games across the span of his career means he's not a game manager, I can't help you.

And I'm not even saying he wasn't being a game manager in those two games anyway.

Bottom line, like I said, you'll never find anybody talking about him making graeat throws, or how he won a game for the team.

[shilala]

Brady
Manning
Rodgers
Ryan
Rivers
Flacco
Dalton
Newton
Stafford
Brees
Romo
Tebow ;)

Not playing, but still better:
Schaub
Manning

:2
Ben is ranked 6th in the NFL. Flacco is ranked 21st. Ben had a 126 passer rating last week with a broken thumb and took the game with a grade 2 high ankle sprain.
We all have our opinions, but you gotta give the raper his due.
I've never considered him an elite QB, but his arm and game head has come along leaps and bounds over the last four years. And he wins. He plays hurt and takes games away.
Rivers sits down if he gets a bruise. He's set himself down a number of times over the years.
Thank God Tebow got a wink or I'd have you institutionalized. Lol

[yachties23]

Rivers has been hurt all season, and played with a serious knee injury in the play offs a few years back. He has also won despite having offensive weapons hurt, and the worst coach in the NFL. Of the three QBs drafted that season, hes the only one without a superbowl, but may be the most talented. I'd take any of the three, but right now, I think that Ben would need the best supporting cast.

Ben is ranked 6th in the NFL. Flacco is ranked 21st. Ben had a 126 passer rating last week with a broken thumb and took the game with a grade 2 high ankle sprain.
We all have our opinions, but you gotta give the raper his due.
I've never considered him an elite QB, but his arm and game head has come along leaps and bounds over the last four years. And he wins. He plays hurt and takes games away.
Rivers sits down if he gets a bruise. He's set himself down a number of times over the years.
Thank God Tebow got a wink or I'd have you institutionalized. Lol

[Stephen]

Brady
Manning
Rodgers
Ryan
Rivers
Flacco
Dalton
Newton
Stafford
Brees
Romo
Tebow ;)

Not playing, but still better:
Schaub
Manning

:2

There are 14 QB's on the list, take out the two rookies and Tebow and there are still 11 in front, remove the two on IR and then he falls in at #10. ;s
Ok, I'll try to break your list down objectively (and with a lot less venom as last time; sorry about that):

I'll gladly concede that Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees and a healthy Peyton Manning are better quarterbacks than Roethlisberger. Since you conceded that Roethlisberger is better than the two rookies (Newton/Dalton) and Tewbow, that leaves us with seven quarterbacks:

1. Eli Manning: The only other quarterback left on this list with a Super Bowl ring (let alone appearance), so we'll start with him. Ben's YPA (yards per attempt) is a full yard higher for his career than Eli's, which explains their incredibly close career passing yards (26,028 for Ben, 26,751 for Eli) in spite of Eli attempting nearly 600 more passes. Now, Eli may have more touchdown passes (181-165), but he also has more interceptions (125-97). So in short, Ben doesn't attempt as many passes as Eli, but when he does, he's much more effective (and takes better care of the ball). I'd also be remiss if I failed to mention that Manning piggy-backed his defense en route to a Super Bowl ring, and hasn't won a playoff game before or since that season.

2. Philip Rivers: In my opinion the best current starting quarterback without a ring. Career averages are similiar (Rivers: 241 YPG, 8.0 YPA, 95.8 QBR to Roethlisberger: 232 YPG, 8.1 YPA, 92.9 QBR). Rivers has a better TD/Int ratio as well. Rivers has turtled in the playoffs, however, and has zero hardware to show for having some of the most complete teams in the NFL. Similar numbers + three trips to the Super Bowl gives Roethlisberger the edge.

3. Matt Ryan: Career completion %, YPA, YPG and QBR are nowhere near Roethlisberger's. The only thing in Ryan's favor would be his TD/INT ratio. With literally no playoff success to point to, Ryan doesn't make the cut.

4. Tony Romo: Tony's always been a decent fantasy football quarterback, posting solid stats. The nice thing about having him is that you don't have to worry about him disappearing in the playoffs, if he can manage to get there. Did I mention he's also two years older than Roethlisberger?

5. Joe Flacco: There's nothing that shows in the stats colum (and from watching both of them) that Flacco is in the same league as Roethlisberger. He has neither the individual accolades or team success to compare with Roethlisberger.

6. Matt Stafford: While he's managed to stay healthy for 14 straight games and put together a nice season, I'd like to see a bit of a track record before vaulting him above Roethlisberger.

7. Matt Schaub: YPA and QBR are similar, while having a slightly better completion % and slightly worse TD/INT ratio. Never been to the playoffs, and has a career winning % below .500. Ironically enough, this is the first year the Texans will be making the playoffs, and it'll be because of their defense and running game.

[Stephen]

If you really believe pointing to one or two games across the span of his career means he's not a game manager, I can't help you.
And if you really think that there's only one or two games to point to, then I can't help you.
Bottom line, like I said, you'll never find anybody talking about him making graeat throws, or how he won a game for the team.
http://danielmilton.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/lolwut1.jpg

[shilala]

Rivers has been hurt all season, and played with a serious knee injury in the play offs a few years back. He has also won despite having offensive weapons hurt, and the worst coach in the NFL. Of the three QBs drafted that season, hes the only one without a superbowl, but may be the most talented. I'd take any of the three, but right now, I think that Ben would need the best supporting cast.
Ya know, another BIG positive for Phillip Rivers these days is that he's grown up immensely over the last few years. I don't see the big baby, throwing tantrums, 10-year-old pouty face, kicking stuff on the sidelines, yelling at players and coaches like I used to see.
All that lack of composure held him back. It used to be I couldn't even stand to listen to him after the games because he was so full of himself. He's really, truly changed and done a 180.
I guess what I'm saying is that it's Phillip River's fault all that talent was wasted for all those years when he had an excellent supporting cast. Now he's got an iffy-ish supporting cast and he's doing well.
If the Chargers make some more moves this off-season, they have a huge opportunity to exploit Phillip Rivers at the pinnacle of his career. I hope they get it done. :tu

And believe it or not, I thought of him this way before he carved up the Ravens last night and did me and my Steelers a HUGE solid. :D
Now it's up to the Steelers to hang on to this early Christmas present. :tu

[shilala]

Bottom line, like I said, you'll never find anybody talking about him making graeat throws, or how he won a game for the team.
Vic, Ben has become such an incredibly efficient quarterback in the air over the last four years that a team who has been a running juggernaut forever has completely abandoned that style of play and turned into a passing offense.
That's something I never thought I'd see in my entire life. Something I never even wanted to see, but it's worked fabulously.
Since committing to the passing game these last four years, the team is 43-21, has been in the playoffs 3 times, the Super Bowl twice, and took a ring.

In 2005 when they won Super Bowl XL the team was 5th in the league in rushing yards, 24th in passing yards. A running team.
They started transtioning in '06-'07 and suffered the growing pains because of it.
By 2008 when they won Super Bowl XLIII they had moved to 17th in the league in passing and 23rd in rushing.
This year they are 8th in passing, 17th in rushing.
See the trend? :)

I figure you were being tongue in cheek when you said no one ooo's and aaaaaahhh's at Ben's arm, or he hasn't won games with his arm. He's literally been a highlight reel all season, even during these past weeks while his thumb has been broken, his efficiency is through the roof (I think he had a 126.0 passer rating last week.)

[Mikey202]

Bottom line, like I said, you'll never find anybody talking about him making graeat throws, or how he won a game for the team.

Dude, he is no Peyton Manning, but he does make great throws. Who is throwing to Wallace?

[Resipsa]

Vic, Ben has become such an incredibly efficient quarterback in the air over the last four years that a team who has been a running juggernaut forever has completely abandoned that style of play and turned into a passing offense.
That's something I never thought I'd see in my entire life. Something I never even wanted to see, but it's worked fabulously.
Since committing to the passing game these last four years, the team is 43-21, has been in the playoffs 3 times, the Super Bowl twice, and took a ring.

In 2005 when they won Super Bowl XL the team was 5th in the league in rushing yards, 24th in passing yards. A running team.
They started transtioning in '06-'07 and suffered the growing pains because of it.
By 2008 when they won Super Bowl XLIII they had moved to 17th in the league in passing and 23rd in rushing.
This year they are 8th in passing, 17th in rushing.
See the trend? :)

I figure you were being tongue in cheek when you said no one ooo's and aaaaaahhh's at Ben's arm, or he hasn't won games with his arm. He's literally been a highlight reel all season, even during these past weeks while his thumb has been broken, his efficiency is through the roof (I think he had a 126.0 passer rating last week.)

You were saying Scott? were you finished? Well, allow me to retort (said in my best Samuel Jackson voice):

:r

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=311219025

Look, I get some of you guys drink the Big Ben Kool aid. I don't. I watch the guy play and I see a second tier Qb that NOBODY would talk about if he played for the Arizona Cardinals.:)

[Stephen]

You were saying Scott? were you finished? Well, allow me to retort (said in my best Samuel Jackson voice):

:r

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=311219025
I'll see your poor outing on the road against one of the best teams in the NFC in a game in which most quarterbacks wouldn't have bothered suiting up and raise you this (http://espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=311016027), this (http://espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=311030014), this (http://espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=311031012) or this (http://espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=311218019). Point is, every quarterback has a turd from time to time. It happens.
Look, I get some of you guys drink the Big Ben Kool aid. I don't. I watch the guy play and I see a second tier Qb that NOBODY would talk about if he played for the Arizona Cardinals.:)
I have no dog in this fight whatsoever. My question to you is, if he's such a second tier quarterback, why do his splits stack up against the most elite quarterbacks in the NFL today? How have the Steelers made it to three Super Bowls (winning two) with a second tier quarterback? They don't make it through the playoffs in 2005 without Roethlisberger (regardless of how he played once they got there), they don't beat Arizona in the Super Bowl without that final drive (unless you don't remember Warner going up and down the field on that Steelers defense in the 2nd half) and they don't even get past Baltimore this past season in the Divional game after their defense put them in a 14 point halftime hole. Sorry Resipsa, I don't know how many examples you need to see of a guy putting a team on his back before you concede that he's asked (and expected) to do much, much more than, "not lose the game."

[shilala]

You were saying Scott? were you finished? Well, allow me to retort (said in my best Samuel Jackson voice):

:r

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=311219025

I definately :lr'd on that Sam reference, Thanks Vic. :D

It was obvious Ben couldn't get downfield consistantly with a broken thumb and ankle after the first eight minutes. (Despite 25/44 and 330 yards in the air, all the niners had to do is keep an extra man in and amp up the pressure to stop him.)
Charlie Batch took all the snaps this week and guys were open all night.
So rather than let Ben take another couple weeks to carry us through the playoffs, the brass sends him out to lose face, lose the game, lose homefield advantage via the Christmas present the Ravens just gave us, etc.
Ben's mobility, which is the one thing everyone points out as his greatest asset, wasn't there. So that somehow makes it sensible to put him out there, injure him further, and ignore a bench qb who's better prepared for the week.
In short, what? :R

Look, I get some of you guys drink the Big Ben Kool aid. I don't. I watch the guy play and I see a second tier Qb that NOBODY would talk about if he played for the Arizona Cardinals.:)

I get what you're saying, completely. If we're going to be a passing club with little respect to a running game, I'd rather see another qb in there.
Nobody would be talking about Tom Brady if he played for the Cleveland Browns, though.
I might even agree that Ben would not likely fair well in any other schemes that weren't tailor made to suit his ability, but there's more to that story. Our O-line is patched together, has been for years. Ben is forever molested. His size and strength allow the Steelers to use money in on Defense and save money by not having a left guard, which is a very costly position. We get our guards from couches because we have a whole core of drafted hopefuls that are hurt. (They should pay off next year, hopefully.) So Ben saves money on our whole offensive line. That's money that's spent on receivers and defense. It makes sense and it works.
Fact is, Ben is bought and paid for, has earned the spot, has the rings, has the numbers, and consistantly wins.
It'd be almost as retarded to fix that as it was to hobble him out on the field last night.

[Mikey202]

I'll see your poor outing on the road against one of the best teams in the NFC in a game in which most quarterbacks wouldn't have bothered suiting up and raise you this (http://espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=311016027), this (http://espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=311030014), this (http://espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=311031012) or this (http://espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=311218019). Point is, every quarterback has a turd from time to time. It happens.

I have no dog in this fight whatsoever. My question to you is, if he's such a second tier quarterback, why do his splits stack up against the most elite quarterbacks in the NFL today? How have the Steelers made it to three Super Bowls (winning two) with a second tier quarterback? They don't make it through the playoffs in 2005 without Roethlisberger (regardless of how he played once they got there), they don't beat Arizona in the Super Bowl without that final drive (unless you don't remember Warner going up and down the field on that Steelers defense in the 2nd half) and they don't even get past Baltimore this past season in the Divional game after their defense put them in a 14 point halftime hole. Sorry Resipsa, I don't know how many examples you need to see of a guy putting a team on his back before you concede that he's asked (and expected) to do much, much more than, "not lose the game."

There was this one time, when Steelers played the Colts in the AFC Championship, and Ben stopped the winning TD after the Bettis fumble. :gary
That is why there is so much Hater-aid, from Vic.:cf1

[Resipsa]

There was this one time, when Steelers played the Colts in the AFC Championship, and Ben stopped the winning TD after the Bettis fumble. :gary
That is why there is so much Hater-aid, from Vic.:cf1

Either that or I really don't think he's a good QB.

OR I hate rapists. Either or.

Take your pick.:gary

[Stephen]

I'd say people have a hard time separating Ben Roethlisberger the NFL quarterback from Ben Roethlisberger the human being.
Not really Stephen.
OR I hate rapists. Either or.
Admittance is the first step to recovery. Good job!:tu
http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs5/2224977_o.gif

[Resipsa]

Try quoting me fully, ;)

I have no problem seperating Little Ben the person from little Ben the player.

He sucks as a person, he sucks as a player. What is there to differentiate, LOL

[Stephen]

Try quoting me fully, ;)
I only quoted the relevent parts where you contradict yourself within a week's timeframe.
I have no problem seperating Little Ben the person from little Ben the player.

He sucks as a person, he sucks as a player. What is there to differentiate, LOL
Look, I get it if you don't like him because of who he is as an individual. But your assertion that he's nothing more than a game manager simply doesn't jive with the on-field performace, the stat sheet, or the jewelry.

[Stephen]

There was this one time, when Steelers played the Colts in the AFC Championship, and Ben stopped the winning TD after the Bettis fumble. :gary
That is why there is so much Hater-aid, from Vic.:cf1
So he's a Colts fan? Man, then he really doesn't want to talk about quarterbacks piggy-backing their way to a Super Bowl ring then does he...

[Resipsa]

I only quoted the relevent parts where you contradict yourself within a week's timeframe.

Look, I get it if you don't like him because of who he is as an individual. But your assertion that he's nothing more than a game manager simply doesn't jive with the on-field performace, the stat sheet, or the jewelry.

A) youre in serious need of a reading comprehension class

B) not everybody has to think what you do

C) you clearly don't "get" anything since youndontnget the point

D) move on.org. Join it,,it may help you

[pnoon]

O.K. kids. Let's keep this from getting personal.

You guys disagree. We get it.

[Stephen]

A) youre in serious need of a reading comprehension class
I read just fine, thank you. That's how I was able to show you your contradiction.:)
B) not everybody has to think what you do
Agreed. But I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that I've supported my opinion with something more than...My opinion.
C) you clearly don't "get" anything since youndontnget the point
I get it just fine. You don't like Ben Roethlisberger.
D) move on.org. Join it,,it may help you
Hmm, or maybe for future reference, if someone makes a post listing nearly half the starting NFL quarterbacks as being better than Ben Roethlisberger and you respond with:
I'd say fairly accurate:tu
you shouldn't be surprised when somebody challenges that assertion. You say he sucks as a player and is a game manager, yet you offer up nothing as to why you hold that opinion. I'm not trying to change your mind, but simply asking you on what (tangible) basis is this opinion formulated. Instead I got bupkis.

[Stephen]

O.K. kids. Let's keep this from getting personal.

You guys disagree. We get it.
:tu

[shilala]

I think Peyton Manning has a square head. :bdh

I still love Vic even though he's a player-hater.


Lastly, there should be a basketful of empirical evidence on Vic's side as these next few weeks roll on. With Ben's foot as big as his ego, we should easily squander any hopes of homefield advantage, expect to be beaten by two more mediocre teams, and send Ben golfing the day after the wildcard game.

[Resipsa]

I think Peyton Manning has a square head. :bdh

I still love Vic even though he's a player-hater.


Lastly, there should be a basketful of empirical evidence on Vic's side as these next few weeks roll on. With Ben's foot as big as his face and gut, we should easily squander any hopes of homefield advantage, expect to be beaten by two more mediocre teams, and send Ben golfing the day after the wildcard game.

Fixed it for you! Not often you see an NFL QB with his beer gut hanging over his pants:D

[Stephen]

Lastly, there should be a basketful of empirical evidence on Vic's side as these next few weeks roll on. With Ben's foot as big as his ego, we should easily squander any hopes of homefield advantage, expect to be beaten by two more mediocre teams, and send Ben golfing the day after the wildcard game.
Wouldn't the opposite be true? If the Steelers win in spite of Roethlisberger not because of him, and if Roethlisberger sucks, why would him not playing at or near 100% matter?:confused:

[Parshooter]

I came here to read about the NFL's new safety policy, not 2 pages about Rothlisberger.

[shilala]

Wouldn't the opposite be true? If the Steelers win in spite of Roethlisberger not because of him, and if Roethlisberger sucks, why would him not playing at or near 100% matter?:confused:
That's one of those time-continuum quantum physics causality loop reverse psychology questions.
I'm not falling for the bait. :tf

[Parshooter]

http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1442

[Mikey202]

I came here to read about the NFL's new safety policy, not 2 pages about Rothlisberger.

It's Vics fault!!!! He started it!!!

[14holestogie]

It's Vics fault!!!! He started it!!!

I thought Ben started it. ;):r

[Stephen]

I thought Ben started it. ;):r
Nah, from what I've learned in this thread there's no way Ben could've started it. He sucks as a starter.:D

[Mikey202]

Excellent tackle by Harrison on Decker. But the haters will still hate. Harrison is a beast, deal with it.

[yachties23]

Excellent tackle by Harrison on Decker. But the haters will still hate. Harrison is a beast, deal with it.

You are right. We will. He's dirty.

You really can't deny it.