Kids Sent Home For Wearing American Flag

[68TriShield]

I think the Vice Principle really didn't think this out.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/06/california-students-sent-home-wearing-flags-cinco-mayo/

[hotreds]

¡ Que mierda!

[Ashcan Bill]

One of several reasons I left CA for NV. I'm not in the least surprised.

[gettysburgfreak]

My blood pressure just jumped through the roof. This PC bull$hit is getting so far out of hand it makes me sick.

[elderboy02]

This happened in California? Wow, I am surprised. :td

[Darrell]

Ugh....

[BFallehy]

I saw this on the news this morning and could not believe what I was seeing. Then they put on this girl from the high school who said,
"I figured people would wear red white and green for cinco de mayo but when the, and I dont' want to sound racist, but white boys came wearing red white and blue I felt that was disrespectful." (not exact quote but pretty damn good)

I about fell over laughing when I heard that. Not only did this girl actualy say something like that but they put her on the air. I guess stupid gets raitings.

:usa

[jmsremax]

An instant :td

[Mr B]

What the heck is our State / Country coming too??? :td

[macpappy]

This happened in California? Wow, I am surprised. :td

Did I detect a subtle sarcasm to your comment?

[elderboy02]

Did I detect a subtle sarcasm to your comment?

:r Yes, yes you did.

[akumushi]

Epic fail. Did the kids mean disrespect? To be honest yes, probably. Unless that's the way they dress every day they clearly meant to antangonize the hispanics at their school, and if anything, the admin tried to make them change to avoid a ugly racial situation. But this is America and you should be able to wear a patriotic shirt at school, even if your intention is race baiting. Go ahead and wear your patriot gear on Cinco de Mayo, but don't come crying to me when some cholo beats you up for the disrespect.:2

[BigFrank]

Such bullshit.

[BC-Axeman]

Two of the "white" kids have a Mexican-American father.
In my country we don't officially observe foreign holidays.
My daughter was looking to move from Gilroy to Morgan Hill for the better schools. I think she will have to know about this. Or maybe it's worse in Gilroy, like forcing kids to speak espanol.

[BC-Axeman]

Epic fail. Did the kids mean disrespect? To be honest yes, probably. Unless that's the way they dress every day they clearly meant to antangonize the hispanics at their school, and if anything, the admin tried to make them change to avoid a ugly racial situation. But this is America and you should be able to wear a patriotic shirt at school, even if your intention is race baiting. Go ahead and wear your patriot gear on Cinco de Mayo, but don't come crying to me when some cholo beats you up for the disrespect.:2
No cholo is owed the least bit of respect just because it's May 5th. No amount of respect demanded is worth violence returned if that respect is not given. In fact the act of demanding respect for foreign holidays is itself condemnable.

[Smokin Gator]

:td:td

[Subvet642]

Epic fail. Did the kids mean disrespect? To be honest yes, probably. Unless that's the way they dress every day they clearly meant to antangonize the hispanics at their school, and if anything, the admin tried to make them change to avoid a ugly racial situation. But this is America and you should be able to wear a patriotic shirt at school, even if your intention is race baiting. Go ahead and wear your patriot gear on Cinco de Mayo, but don't come crying to me when some cholo beats you up for the disrespect.:2

What about if some "cholo" (whatever that means) wears a Mexican flag on Memorial Day? Same no crying rule?

[AD720]

No cholo is owed the least bit of respect just because it's May 5th. No amount of respect demanded is worth violence returned if that respect is not given. In fact the act of demanding respect for foreign holidays is itself condemnable.

Cinco de Mayo is not really a foreign holiday per say. It's more like St. Patrick's day or Columbus day. FYI.

[akumushi]

California schools are terrible. My wife and I plan to move out of state by the time our kids have to go to public school. Some may be better than others, but on the whole they are :td
With the state's budget being what it is, I can only see the situation getting worse. I hope your daughter finds a decent one, or can afford some private schooling.

[BC-Axeman]

Cinco de Mayo is not really a foreign holiday per say. It's more like St. Patrick's day or Columbus day. FYI.
So the kids would be sent home for wearing a flag on St.Pat's day? Or not wearing green? May 5th in much less a holiday than St. Pat's. It is mostly a reason for college kids to drink more and for protesters to march against America. No one even knew about it more than 25 years ago.

[akumushi]

Cinco de Mayo is not really a foreign holiday per say. It's more like St. Patrick's day or Columbus day. FYI.

Yeah, let's say I show up on St Patties day wearing a British flag bandana and shirt. Do I have the right? Yes. Is it kind of a punk thing to do? Yes. I don't think the principal had the right to do what they did, but a lot of schools in California are powder kegs of racial tension. I saw plenty of fights erupt between whites and hispanics from Junior High all the way to High school. I can see where the school admin were coming from even if they were misguided, if they were trying to avoid a fight.

[kydsid]

On another board someone made this statement and it fits.


I wonder what would happen if I burned a Mexican Flag in protest?

[CigarNut]

What a mess... The school district is likely in for a lawsuit and the community is going to be further broken. Unfortunately, there is no good solution for this...

[mosesbotbol]

I can understand the principal’s concern that the students wearing the US flag just to incite and provoke. I can also see (not a reason mentioned here) that wearing the US flag as a “bandana” is disrespectful of the flag.

I don’t think it was the disregard for the American flag by the principal that was the issue as much as the students’ negative and malicious intent by wearing it. That being said, the principal could’ve used a better solution to mitigate the circumstance.

[pnoon]

On another board someone made this statement and it fits.

I'm not sure what "it fits" but I see a huge difference between wearing colors supporting your own country and burning the flag of another country.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Lawsuit just around the corner. Such bs, I can't even believe it.

[G G]

We gotta start putting our vote where our mouth is (so to speak)

[pnoon]

Tragic that American kids are being punished for being American.
I have no doubt they did it to antagonize but the school definitely over-reacted.

I don't see where a lawsuit would benefit anyone. Yes, it's a question of First Amendment rights but if the school administration admits it overreacted a lawsuit is pointless and a waste of time.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Tragic that American kids are being punished for being American.
I have no doubt they did it to antagonize but the school definitely over-reacted.

I don't see where a lawsuit would benefit anyone. Yes, it's a question of First Amendment rights but if the school administration admits it overreacted a lawsuit is pointless and a waste of time.


Not sure a lawsuit would be pointless.

Waste of time, maybe in your opinion, but there is grounds for a lawsuit.

[pnoon]

Not sure a lawsuit would be pointless.

Waste of time, maybe in your opinion, but there is grounds for a lawsuit.

What is to be gained?

[AD720]

We gotta start putting our vote where our mouth is (so to speak)

Are high school principles elected in CA? :)

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

What is to be gained?


Lots. If you think about the rights that were violated, and the fact that we live in America and we can have the freedom to protect our rights, sometimes you can't just sit back anymore and take bs.

[The Poet]

To an old fart like me, this is a double-sided non-issue. Was this PC? Maybe, maybe not. But decidedly, it is BS. Hell, when I was that age I would not have been sent home for wearing an American flag to school. Instead, I would have been arrested for disrespecting the flag, and the nation . . . if I was lucky. If not, I would have been shot.

It amazes me how much things have changed, but still intolerance remains a constant. A moving constant, perhaps, but constant nonetheless.

[AD720]

So the kids would be sent home for wearing a flag on St.Pat's day? Or not wearing green? May 5th in much less a holiday than St. Pat's. It is mostly a reason for college kids to drink more and for protesters to march against America. No one even knew about it more than 25 years ago.


Sorry I missed this Lance...I'm not really getting involved in the argument on whether or not the kids should have gotten sent home. I was just making the point that Cinco de Mayo is not a "Mexican" holiday exactly. It's holiday where Americans of Mexican decent celebrate their heritage (and college kids get drunk, but they don't really need an excuse for that :)) and has become, much like St. Patricks day, an excuse for everyone to get blitzed.

[kydsid]

The part of a lawsuit that would worry me is that technically it is illegal to wear or manufacture clothing in the image of the American Flag. Not that I object to those items but if you attack one side there are bound to bring up that in their defense.

[Darrell]

My friend is a Mexican American and he says Cinco de Mayo isn't a real holiday anywhere but the U.S., it was cooked up by beer companies to sell more products. It gets hardly any exposure in it's own country outside of Puebla.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

The part of a lawsuit that would worry me is that technically it is illegal to wear or manufacture clothing in the image of the American Flag. Not that I object to those items but if you attack one side there are bound to bring up that in their defense.

I don't think that would be an issue, but what do I know, Im not an attorney. Although I know a few, actually about 60 or so.

[akumushi]

Tragic that American kids are being punished for being American.
I have no doubt they did it to antagonize but the school definitely over-reacted.

I don't see where a lawsuit would benefit anyone. Yes, it's a question of First Amendment rights but if the school administration admits it overreacted a lawsuit is pointless and a waste of time.

Also, it's well established precident that students at school do not have full protection of the law when it comes to free speach. If an administrator decides that your t-shirt is inappropriate they can have you turn it inside out, and send you home if you refuse. It happens all the time with bandshirts that have inappropriate imagery or language, or clothing that is known for having significance to street gangs. This kind of censorship is reserved as a right for the school, and is important for student safety and maintaining a proper learning environment and a lawsuit isn't going to change that even if the rules were misapplied in this case. The whole incident is unfortunate for everyone involved and will not do anything to help the students or the school. If anyone is to blame, IMHO, it's these kid's parents. If it wasn't their idea, they stood behind the kids and let them go to school like that instead of saying, "you know, maybe people will find your statement a little disrespectful and this isn't the best idea." Maybe next time the parents complain about the fact that there is no school bus, no library and they have to pay for the textbooks, they should think twice about filing a lawsuit against the school district.

[AD720]

Sorry I missed this Lance...I'm not really getting involved in the argument on whether or not the kids should have gotten sent home. I was just making the point that Cinco de Mayo is not a "Mexican" holiday exactly. It's holiday where Americans of Mexican decent celebrate their heritage (and college kids get drunk, but they don't really need an excuse for that :)) and has become, much like St. Patricks day, an excuse for everyone to get blitzed.

My friend is a Mexican American and he says Cinco de Mayo isn't a real holiday anywhere but the U.S., it was cooked up by beer companies to sell more products. It gets hardly any exposure in it's own country outside of Puebla.

There we go. Darrell, thanks for getting that out clearer and faster than I did. :)

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Also, it's well established precident that students at school do not have full protection of the law when it comes to free speach. If an administrator decides that your t-shirt is inappropriate they can have you turn it inside out, and send you home if you refuse. It happens all the time with bandshirts that have inappropriate imagery or language, or clothing that is known for having significance to street gangs. This kind of censorship is reserved as a right for the school, and is important for student safety and maintaining a proper learning environment and a lawsuit isn't going to change that even if the rules were misapplied in this case. The whole incident is unfortunate for everyone involved and will not do anything to help the students or the school. If anyone is to blame, IMHO, it's these kid's parents. If it wasn't their idea, they stood behind the kids and let them go to school like that instead of saying, "you know, maybe people will find your statement a little disrespectful and this isn't the best idea." Maybe next time the parents complain about the fact that there is no school bus, no library and they have to pay for the textbooks, they should think twice about filing a lawsuit against the school district.


Would you consider wearing a shirt with the American flag on it, inappropriate and detrimental to the learning environment, and that this would fall under the reserved right of the school? By the way, Clayton, just trying to understand your stance:)

[akumushi]

My friend is a Mexican American and he says Cinco de Mayo isn't a real holiday anywhere but the U.S., it was cooked up by beer companies to sell more products. It gets hardly any exposure in it's own country outside of Puebla.

And if it's not the beer companies, it's certainly the tequila companies. Cinco De Mayo is the perfect excuse to fire up the blender and take a trip to Margaritaville:D

[akumushi]

Would you consider wearing a shirt with the American flag on it, inappropriate and detrimental to the learning environment, and that this would fall under the reserved right of the school? By the way, Clayton, just trying to understand your stance:)

Again, I think the principal did a stupid move and I think the rule was misapplied, all I'm was saying is that the admin does have legal precident to exercise discretion over what the students wear to school, so a lawsuit might be a lose/lose situation for everybody involved:2

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

For information purposes, the students are protected by California Education Code 48950.

[dunng]

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/7366/epicfail02lt7.jpg

[KenyanSandBoa]

Wow...that is just sad. :td

[Darrell]

And if it's not the beer companies, it's certainly the tequila companies. Cinco De Mayo is the perfect excuse to fire up the blender and take a trip to Margaritaville:D

Haha. So true. :r

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Again, I think the principal did a stupid move and I think the rule was misapplied, all I'm was saying is that the admin does have legal precident to exercise discretion over what the students wear to school, so a lawsuit might be a lose/lose situation for everybody:2

I understand, and I think we agree.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

And if it's not the beer companies, it's certainly the tequila companies. Cinco De Mayo is the perfect excuse to fire up the blender and take a trip to Margaritaville:D

Yep:r:r

[akumushi]

For information purposes, the students are protected by California Education Code 48950.

When was that passed? They certainly did the "turn your t-shirt inside out" thing all the time when I was a student, so either the admin was breaking the law then too, or things have changed. Maybe they have some argument about how clothing is not a protected free speech thing? Thanks for bringing that up, now I'm intrigued about how this plays out. :tu

[357]

What is to be gained?

I think the biggest gain is that the other school administrators will take the student's right to free speech more seriously. Maybe they will learn that their opinion or dislike of someone's protected speech is not legal justification for revoking that person's rights.

This stuff happens in colleges as well. Check out townhall.com columnist Mike Adams. He writes 2-3 times a week about how universities only filter (punish) speech they don't like. It's rediculous, immoral, and illegal. It will continue if legal action isn't taken.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

I think the biggest gain is that the other school administrators will take the student's right to free speech more seriously. Maybe they will learn that their opinion or dislike of someone's protected speech is not legal justification for revoking that person's rights.

This stuff happens in colleges as well. Check out townhall.com columnist Mike Adams. He writes 2-3 times a week about how universities only filter (punish) speech they don't like. It's rediculous, immoral, and illegal. It will continue if legal action isn't taken.

What he said.

[macpappy]

Wait a minute! I haven't seen any comments from the ACLU about protecting the kids rights. Oh. They are Americans displaying an American flag. The American Communist Liberties Union don't care about this.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

When was that passed? They certainly did the "turn your t-shirt inside out" thing all the time when I was a student, so either the admin was breaking the law then too, or things have changed. Maybe they have some argument about how clothing is not a protected free speach thing? Thanks for bringing that up, now I'm intrigued about how this plays out. :tu

Im not sure when it was passed.

[pnoon]

Again, I think the principal did a stupid move and I think the rule was misapplied, all I'm was saying is that the admin does have legal precident to exercise discretion over what the students wear to school, so a lawsuit might be a lose/lose situation for everybody involved:2

I understand, and I think we agree.

Nate, Clayton expressed very well what I meant by a lawsuit being pointless.

[Resipsa]

Are high school principles elected in CA? :)NO. Nobodies principles are elected.

Nor are high school principals.:r

Sorry brother, I couldn't resist, :r

[AD720]

NO. Nobodies principles are elected.

Nor are high school principals.:r

Sorry brother, I couldn't resist, :r

:hm I don't get it. :)

Edit: I get it now. Well word-played.

[G G]

Are high school principles elected in CA? :)
Not that I am aware of:tu

I was referring to a previous poster (should have quoted) that said something about PC run amok, and that will only be cured at the ballot box IMHO.

[Resipsa]

Again, I think the principal did a stupid move and I think the rule was misapplied, all I'm was saying is that the admin does have legal precident to exercise discretion over what the students wear to school, so a lawsuit might be a lose/lose situation for everybody involved:2The administration needs to act in a non-discriminatory manner, no matter what they do.

This is not only a free speech issue, there is also a Section 1983 action here.

The question becomes why were only the students wearing the American flag sent home? Why not the students displaying the Mexican flag? This is surely just as incendiary to those who are offended by those who insist foreign holidays be celebrated in this country.

It doesn't offend me, but it does offend some. And both groups of students should have been treated equally under Section 1983.

[AD720]

Not that I am aware of:tu

I was referring to a previous poster (should have quoted) that said something about PC run amok, and that will only be cured at the ballot box IMHO.

Just giving you a hard time Greg. ;)

[md4958]

I must have missed the memo where May 5th became a national holiday... I guess I better start paying closer attention.

:td

[G G]

Just giving you a hard time Greg. ;)
Cool. I just didn't quote and should have. :banger

[TonySmith]

Sorry I missed this Lance...I'm not really getting involved in the argument on whether or not the kids should have gotten sent home. I was just making the point that Cinco de Mayo is not a "Mexican" holiday exactly. It's holiday where Americans of Mexican decent celebrate their heritage (and college kids get drunk, but they don't really need an excuse for that :)) and has become, much like St. Patricks day, an excuse for everyone to get blitzed.

Wrong..sorry. Cinco de Mayo celebrates that the Mexican army defeated the French army led by General Mavimilian at Puebla, Puebla, Mexico. Yes it is a holiday where people get drunk, but it is a "Mexican" event. I also don't think it's respectful to wear the American flag as clothing

/Thread hijack off

[CigarNut]

...I don't see where a lawsuit would benefit anyone. Yes, it's a question of First Amendment rights but if the school administration admits it overreacted a lawsuit is pointless and a waste of time.

Not sure a lawsuit would be pointless.

Waste of time, maybe in your opinion, but there is grounds for a lawsuit.I think a lawsuit will happen not because it is "right" but out of pure greed. Remember, it's TAX DOLLARS that will pay for any lawsuits...

It would be best if the school just apologized and people moved on...

[AD720]

Wrong..sorry. Cinco de Mayo celebrates that the Mexican army defeated the French army led by General Mavimilian at Puebla, Puebla, Mexico. Yes it is a holiday where people get drunk, but it is a "Mexican" event. I also don't think it's respectful to wear the American flag as clothing

/Thread hijack off

:rolleyes: Nice attitude. How about "I disagree, here's why"?

----------------


In the United States Cinco de Mayo has taken on a significance beyond that in Mexico.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_de_mayo#cite_note-UCLA-15)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_de_mayo#cite_note-17)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_de_mayo#cite_note-go-18)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_de_mayo#cite_note-mn-19) The date is perhaps best recognized in the United States as a date to celebrate the culture and experiences of Americans of Mexican ancestry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_American), much as St. Patrick's Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Patrick%27s_Day), Oktoberfest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oktoberfest), and the Chinese New Year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_New_Year) are used to celebrate those of Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_American), German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American), and Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_American) ancestry respectively. Similar to those holidays, Cinco de Mayo is observed by many Americans regardless of ethnic origin. Celebrations tend to draw both from traditional Mexican symbols, such as the Virgen de Guadalupe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgen_de_Guadalupe), and from prominent figures of Mexican descent in the United States, including César Chávez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A9sar_Ch%C3%A1vez).[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_de_mayo#cite_note-Ahorre-20) To celebrate, many display Cinco de Mayo banners while school districts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_district) hold special events to educate pupils about its historical significance. Special events and celebrations highlight Mexican culture, especially in its music and regional dancing. Examples include baile folklórico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baile_Folklorico) and mariachi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariachi) demonstrations held annually at the Plaza del Pueblo de Los Angeles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pueblo_de_Los_Angeles), near Olvera Street (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olvera_Street). Commercial interests in the United States have capitalized on the celebration, advertising Mexican products and services, with an emphasis on beverages,[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_de_mayo#cite_note-times-21) foods, and music.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_de_mayo#cite_note-Alb-22)[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_de_mayo#cite_note-Corona-23)

[Darrell]

I also don't think it's respectful to wear the American flag as clothing.

I agree partially.

However, these kids were not wearing the American flag as clothing. One kid had it on his shirt and the other had a bandanna. I don't see an issue with that, if they had defaced or altered the flag to make it a piece of clothing that would be unacceptable, but they didn't.

[mosesbotbol]

Maybe some personal knowledge on the students involved may sway the opinion on those who say the students should be able to wear the American flag? You have to consider the safety of all the students, not a few's "freedom of speech". How about getting some A's on their tests first?

I am probably on the principal's side, but my better half is a high school teacher in one of the toughest cities in New England, so I see it his decision from an administrative stand point.

Is wearing a Germany shirt distasteful or inciting at a school with a large Jewish community on Holocaust Remembrance Day? What about the Confederate Flag on MLK day? Neither are in their own context are bad, but when used in a specific setting breaks the fiber and order of the school.

[Darrell]

Is wearing a Germany shirt distasteful or inciting at a school with a large Jewish community on Holocaust Remembrance Day? What about the Confederate Flag on MLK day? Neither are in their own context are bad, but when used in a specific setting breaks the fiber and order of the school.

Hmmm....

I don't think the German flag carries any bad stigma with Jewish folks, the Swastika on the other hand...

Also, the Confederate flag carries a notoriously bad stigma with it because of the KKK and White Supremacist groups, so I'd say that's in bad taste.

With that said, I don't feel it is ever in bad taste to wear the American flag on your clothing in THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Maybe I am just a grouchy Veteran who sees nothing wrong with wearing the flag of your country, in YOUR country any day of the year.

[T.G]

I agree partially.

However, these kids were not wearing the American flag as clothing. One kid had it on his shirt and the other had a bandanna. I don't see an issue with that, if they had defaced or altered the flag to make it a piece of clothing that would be unacceptable, but they didn't.

What if they made a cap out of a US Flag and wore it backwards? Still no?

[NeuRon]

This is America.. Land of the free...

Is it not?

[akumushi]

What if they made a cap out of a US Flag and wore it backwards? Still no?

:r:r:r

[Bigwaved]

I can understand the principal’s concern that the students wearing the US flag just to incite and provoke. I can also see (not a reason mentioned here) that wearing the US flag as a “bandana” is disrespectful of the flag.

I don’t think it was the disregard for the American flag by the principal that was the issue as much as the students’ negative and malicious intent by wearing it. That being said, the principal could’ve used a better solution to mitigate the circumstance.
Agreed. Intent was most likely the reason the vice principal did what he did, but the solution may not have been the best one. For people to ignore what was happening and just jump to the American flag aspect is what it is. Some could argue using the flag to incite is, in itself, misguided. A lot of symbols could be discussed ad nauseum, imo.

[Skywalker]

I agree partially.

However, these kids were not wearing the American flag as clothing. One kid had it on his shirt and the other had a bandanna. I don't see an issue with that, if they had defaced or altered the flag to make it a piece of clothing that would be unacceptable, but they didn't.

Good point!!!

My friend is a Mexican American and he says Cinco de Mayo isn't a real holiday anywhere but the U.S., it was cooked up by beer companies to sell more products. It gets hardly any exposure in it's own country outside of Puebla.


Wait... You have a friend???:D

[TonySmith]

US Flag Code

http://suvcw.org/flag.htm

section 8 (d)The flag should never be used as wearing apparel....

[Darrell]

US Flag Code

http://suvcw.org/flag.htm

section 8 (d)The flag should never be used as wearing apparel....

Yes, the FLAG. Meaning, you cannot go out front, pull the flag down from the pole and make a pair of trousers and a boonie hat with it, it does not mean you cannot wear flags on your clothing (i.e PRINT).

[Wolfgang]

From what I understand (and please correct me) Cinco de Mayo while claimed Mexico Independence day is actually false. Mexico's Independence day is September 27th. When their Independence was declared from Spain Following a war with France.

P.S. Someone burned a Mexican Flag in Arizona (I believe) and was taken to prison. While Those who burn an American Flag here in America are hailed a heroes. Go figgure......

@ Akumushi: A holiday created by Corona and a Holiday to honor those we have lost in battle are not on the same plane. Get into laws all you want but excluding wearing a t-shirt on specific day seams to be pushing it. I know there is racial tension everywhere but shouldn't the administration not necessarily be afraid of the students?

[TonySmith]

Yes, the FLAG. Meaning, you cannot go out front, pull the flag down from the pole and make a pair of trousers and a boonie hat with it, it does not mean you cannot wear flags on your clothing (i.e PRINT).

I think you are splitting hairs Darrell. The FLAG doesn't have to be big to be a flag. Any size or replication of the flag is a flag. I don't want to get in an argument about this. I believe any size flag is a flag. I will not wear one, do what you want, my friend

[Wolfgang]

Yes, the FLAG. Meaning, you cannot go out front, pull the flag down from the pole and make a pair of trousers and a boonie hat with it, it does not mean you cannot wear flags on your clothing (i.e PRINT).

Like this jerkoff? Cut a hole in the middle and make a poncho sounds Like what the Flag code is talking about.

http://stereogum.com/img/halloween_kidrockflag.jpg

[E.J.]

Guess I am in the minority, but if kids are doing something that is clearly designed to antagonize other classmates, I have no issue with the school asking you to change.

It appears to me, that is exactly what this is....

[icehog3]

I think you are splitting hairs Darrell. The FLAG doesn't have to be big to be a flag. Any size or replication of the flag is a flag. I don't want to get in an argument about this. I believe any size flag is a flag. I will not wear one, do what you want, my friend

Tony, not trying to get in the middle of this but just trying to clarify. Would you take issue with these T-shirt images being worn?

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa73/icehog3/flag1.jpg

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa73/icehog3/flag2.jpg

[mariogolbee]

We were discussing history and how it affects the symbolism and politics of a nation in my Political Science class today. After a story of someone wearing a Hitler costume on Halloween to a class with a Jewish professor, and wearing a KKK outfit to a class with an African American professor, our professor brought up this topic. Although it is not as blunt as the other two stories given, the point was still quite obvious. A possibly volatile situation is was dealt with before it had a chance to escalate. With the racial profiling and immigration laws of recent years and especially as of late going on today the message the boys were sending was obviously of an aggressive nature. Before one blames the principal for his actions they should try walking in his shoes first.

America is a beautiful melting pot comprised of it's diverse population. The various ethnic and cultural backgrounds which makes up America should all be respected and well treated.

Instead of spending so much energy on this topic take a poke at some of these folks.
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map

P.S. Why is this thread still open? It is clearly political.

[Wolfgang]

P.S. Why is this thread still open? It is clearly political.

Id say more Racial but YMMV

[icehog3]

.

America is a beautiful melting pot comprised of it's diverse population. The various ethnic and cultural backgrounds which makes up America should all be respected and well treated..

Well said, Mario.

[mariogolbee]

Id say more Racial but YMMV

I can see a point there. The issues of face value here are the Principal's actions and the boy's actions. The former is the head of an institution thereby being a political structure and political issue. The latter being a possible racial issue but under the pretenses of the tensions I've pointed out also being of a political nature. Plus, notice that I highlighted Political Science. If we were discussing this topic in Poli Sci class is it not likely to be political?

Well said, Mario.

Thanks Tom.

Oh by the way. Please always remember ladies and gents, :l and do value your friendships and opinions.

[icehog3]

If we were discussing this topic in Poli Sci class is it not likely to be political?





I was a Poli Sci major in college Mario, and not every topic discussed in class automatically qualified as "political". I would say this thread so far has not become so in the sense of what we limit on CA, but obviously the definition is somewhat subjective. If it crosses a line, I am sure one of the other ToE will take note. :)

[mariogolbee]

I was a Poli Sci major in college Mario, and not every topic discussed in class automatically qualified as "political". I would say this thread so far has not become so in the sense of what we limit on CA, but obviously the definition is somewhat subjective. If it crosses a line, I am sure one of the other ToE will take note. :)

This is true Tom. You guys always take care of this home of ours. Thank you TOE!:banger

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Guess I am in the minority, but if kids are doing something that is clearly designed to antagonize other classmates, I have no issue with the school asking you to change.

It appears to me, that is exactly what this is....


They were not clearly trying to antagonize anyone.

As far as the reports, no one seems to think they were either.

[mariogolbee]

They were not clearly trying to antagonize anyone.

As far as the reports, no one seems to think they were either.

And these reports came from where?

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Hmmm....

I don't think the German flag carries any bad stigma with Jewish folks, the Swastika on the other hand...

Also, the Confederate flag carries a notoriously bad stigma with it because of the KKK and White Supremacist groups, so I'd say that's in bad taste.

With that said, I don't feel it is ever in bad taste to wear the American flag on your clothing in THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Maybe I am just a grouchy Veteran who sees nothing wrong with wearing the flag of your country, in YOUR country any day of the year.

Your not just a grouchy Veteran Darrell:r I agree with your opinion though. No one is going to tell me not to wear my Country's colors, on any day of the year.

[Cigary]

This country has a rich history and the Flag is symbolic of that history. There have been times where people have disgraced it by wearing it like a common piece of clothing or disgracing it by burning it in public. Understand that many men and women died for what it represents and if anyone wears it to disparage it should be strung up. Some challenge those ideas with letters, with their protests and with them speaking their minds on a variety of subject matter associated with what they feel or where they think this country should be going. The Flag on the other hand is symbolic of those things that are sacred to those people who willingly gave up their lives to defend...freedoms we take for granted so many times.

I don't know the full scope of the real story but if these kids wore the flags to promote something negative they disgraced the real meaning of what it represents. If they wore them to support it's true meaning then I for one am proud of them and think that the person(s) who sent them home are a disgrace. Freedoms that we have can be abused and in a perfect world this should not happen. At the end of the day remember it was those freedoms you have that were purchased with the lives of those who were ready to make the ultimate sacrifice.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

And these reports came from where?

Lis Wiehl, a former federal prosecutor.

Eugene Volokh, a professor of law at the University of California-Los Angeles.

[mariogolbee]

:tt No source huh? If your source was the news then I suggest you don't believe everything the news tells you. Do you honestly believe no ill will was involved here?

Edit: Okay, where is this report? What do they have to do with the incident? Is this source completely unbiased?

[E.J.]

They were not clearly trying to antagonize anyone.

As far as the reports, no one seems to think they were either.

Again, I am fine to be in the minority and am not asking you to come to my way of thinking.... I could not care less if you agree or what the reports stated....

Not for one minute do I think these fashionistas were just wearing their flag shirts and bandannas as part of their school clothing rotation.... With that, I think their exact motive was to antagonize....

I just don't think there is a place for that at school.....

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

This country has a rich history and the Flag is symbolic of that history. There have been times where people have disgraced it by wearing it like a common piece of clothing or disgracing it by burning it in public. Understand that many men and women died for what it represents and if anyone wears it to disparage it should be strung up. Some challenge those ideas with letters, with their protests and with them speaking their minds on a variety of subject matter associated with what they feel or where they think this country should be going. The Flag on the other hand is symbolic of those things that are sacred to those people who willingly gave up their lives to defend...freedoms we take for granted so many times.

I don't know the full scope of the real story but if these kids wore the flags to promote something negative they disgraced the real meaning of what it represents. If they wore them to support it's true meaning then I for one am proud of them and think that the person(s) who sent them home are a disgrace. Freedoms that we have can be abused and in a perfect world this should not happen. At the end of the day remember it was those freedoms you have that were purchased with the lives of those who were ready to make the ultimate sacrifice.

The kids were not actually "wearing" the Flag itself, just to clear things up. Here is an example, and I think some were thinking the opposite.
http://www.animalshirts.net/americanflagshirts/eagleshirtAF1.jpg

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

:tt No source huh? If your source was the news then I suggest you don't believe everything the news tells you. Do you honestly believe no ill will was involved here?

Edit: Okay, where is this report? What do they have to do with the incident? Is this source completely unbiased?

There is a source in the OP. And it is unbiased.

I do beleive there was ill involved here. The party being the school.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Also, like Tom said, Im sure we can all keep this NON-political:)

[stitch]

I'm just glad I live in Arizona -(P

[mariogolbee]

Also, like Tom said, Im sure we can all keep this NON-political:)
According to news reports there were five of them sitting together at the same table, two wearing bandanas as well. Sounds like a statement to me and to the principal who was actually there. I was watching the news a while ago and saw one of the shirts and it was way louder than the one portrayed in your image.

As far as your sources go, I did a quick search. The lady works for FOX or something so is biased. News stations generally try to blow up stories and will often favor the majority in these instances. As far as the guy goes, it seems that his expertise is in law. First Amendment law at that. I'm sure the boys actions are protected under such laws but so are those of Neo Nazi's and the KKK. Not that I'm comparing this to them but there is a time and a place for everything. How on Earth can the report you claim that came from these two "experts" on law show that there was no antagonization involved here? If that issue is to be addressed it should be addressed by experts of a related field such as a gang unit, hate specialist, psychologist, etc. Not a couple of lawyers.

[Bigwaved]

Again, I am fine to be in the minority and am not asking you to come to my way of thinking.... I could not care less if you agree or what the reports stated....

Not for one minute do I think these fashionistas were just wearing their flag shirts and bandannas as part of their school clothing rotation.... With that, I think their exact motive was to antagonize....

I just don't think there is a place for that at school.....
Like I said about intent being lost in the symbolism of the flag...if they were not being antagonistic, then they really, really ignorant of their surroundings and that funny little thing called a calendar. Again, was the decision by the vice-principal the best one? It may or may not have been. That is something that all of the people at the school should have more insight on than any of us or others reporting on it so far. Many variables could be involved in this. Maybe, just maybe, their is more to this than what it seems on the surface, from afar.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

According to news reports there were five of them sitting together at the same table, two wearing bandanas as well. Sounds like a statement to me and to the principal who was actually there. I was watching the news a while ago and saw one of the shirts and it was way louder than the one portrayed in your image.

As far as your sources go, I did a quick search. The lady works for FOX or something so is biased. News stations generally try to blow up stories and will often favor the majority in these instances. As far as the guy goes, it seems that his expertise is in law. First Amendment law at that. I'm sure the boys actions are protected under such laws but so are those of Neo Nazi's and the KKK. Big deal. How on Earth can the report you claim that came from these two "experts" on law show that there was no antagonization involved here? If that issue is to be addressed it should be addressed by experts of a related field such as a gang unit, hate specialist, psychologist, etc. Not a couple of lawyers.

Neo Nazis= violence
kkk= violence

I don't think they would have very much protected under the First Amendment.

Also, I think that if the school actually had violence because of the kids wearing the shirts, then it would be a different story. I don't think there was any violence that day.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Like I said about intent being lost in the symbolism of the flag...if they were not being antagonistic, then they really, really ignorant of their surroundings and that funny little thing called a calendar. Again, was the decision by the vice-principal the best one? It may or may not have been. That is something that all of the people at the school should have more insight on than any of us or others reporting on it so far. Many variables could be involved in this. Maybe, just maybe, their is more to this than what it seems on the surface, from afar.

I think more info surfacing will help.

Also, another thing to think about: This school in Cali, how many of them are Americans? You would think that they would be fine with the American Flag also present, no? I mean, it is America after all, and it is an American school.

[mariogolbee]

Neo Nazis= violence
kkk= violence

I don't think they would have very much protected under the First Amendment.

Also, I think that if the school actually had violence because of the kids wearing the shirts, then it would be a different story. I don't think there was any violence that day.


They are well protected under the First Amendment. And according to WWW.KKK.com "[the KKK] do not promote violence-EVER!" I invite you to take a look at some of the legitimate groups the First Amendment protects at this link. http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map Just go to the map and click on an area.

And of course there was no violence that day. It's what the principal was trying to prevent! That's the whole point!

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

They are well protected under the First Amendment. And according to WWW.KKK.com "[the KKK] do not promote violence-EVER!" I invite you to take a look at some of the legitimate groups the First Amendment protects at this link. http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map Just go to the map and click on an area.

And of course there was no violence that day. It's what the principal was trying to prevent! That's the whole point!

When were they sent home?

[mariogolbee]

I think more info surfacing will help.

Also, another thing to think about: This school in Cali, how many of them are Americans? You would think that they would be fine with the American Flag also present, no? I mean, it is America after all, and it is an American school.

With this comment I can see that you're missing the entire point and obviously not using critical thinking skills. Too bad. I suppose ignorance truly is bliss.

[mariogolbee]

When were they sent home?
:confused:

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

:confused:

Like what time of day? I think that would make a difference.

[Darrell]

With this comment I can see that you're missing the entire point and obviously not using critical thinking skills. Too bad. I suppose ignorance truly is bliss.

Nate isn't ignorant at all, Mario. It's probably best that ALL parties with differences in this thread agree to disagree. We're all friends here. :)

[Bigwaved]

Also, another thing to think about: This school in Cali, how many of them are Americans? You would think that they would be fine with the American Flag also present, no? I mean, it is America after all, and it is an American school.
Since it was a school, my assumption would be that a flag was on a pole somewhere on the grounds. The intention of it being there falls in line with what is symbolizes. On the other hand, some kids wearing shirts and hankies on their heads do not seem to have the same motive. So, to answer your question, it is not the flag at issue here. It is the message being sent. If it were merely the flag, this would have occurred the first time the shirt and hankie were worn, correct? That is my opinion, based off of my life experiences. They are varied. I have been exposed to a lot of things. Those things have distanced me from the turnip truck, if you will. I will not move past having merely an opinion until I know more details.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

With this comment I can see that you're missing the entire point and obviously not using critical thinking skills. Too bad. I suppose ignorance truly is bliss.

Not sure why you are calling me ignorant? Just stating my opinion, and I am respecting yours.

[mariogolbee]

Like what time of day? I think that would make a difference.

Who? The kids? Not exactly sure but I'd assume they were confronted around lunch time.

Either way, it's been kind of fun debating with you but I must rest for school tomorrow. Cheers!

[mariogolbee]

Nate isn't ignorant at all, Mario. It's probably best that ALL parties with differences in this thread agree to disagree. We're all friends here. :)

Not sure why you are calling me ignorant? Just stating my opinion, and I am respecting yours.

I'm not stating ignorance in all things. Apparently there is some ignorance involved in this issue if antagonism in this case cannot be seen when it is so clear. Ignorance is "lack of knowledge" and when used correctly pertains to something rather than the whole. If it is truly believed that there was no ill will on the part of the kids then there is likely some ignorance involved in experience with these matters.

Oh, and Darrell, we are all ignorant in regards to at least some things. If you and I weren't, for example, we wouldn't be in school now, would we?

[T.G]

Neo Nazis= violence


I hate Illinois Nazis...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8_aJcul6kk

[mariogolbee]

I hate Illinois Nazis...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8_aJcul6kk
:r:banger

I agree to disagree, for now. Good night.

[macpappy]

I think more info surfacing will help.

Also, another thing to think about: This school in Cali, how many of them are Americans? You would think that they would be fine with the American Flag also present, no? I mean, it is America after all, and it is an American school.

I believe I read somewhere that 40 percent of the school is considered "Hispanic" but that ethnic background is no indication of how many are American. In fact, I would say that the vast majority of the students are probably American citizens.

I don't think the kids were trying to start a riot by wearing the American flag. I do think they were trying to make a statement about the school celebrating "Cinco de Mayo."

[mosesbotbol]

Your not just a grouchy Veteran Darrell:r I agree with your opinion though. No one is going to tell me not to wear my Country's colors, on any day of the year.

You're not a minor in an institution. Schools have dress codes and they can forbid any kind of dress or colors they deem necessary.

You have to differentiate school from the street.

***********

All public schools should go to strict shirt/tie uniforms to avoid these situations. It's less expensive on the parents and most people think uniforms create a better environment for learning.

[Resipsa]

You're not a minor in an institution. Schools have dress codes and they can forbid any kind of dress or colors they deem necessary.
You have to differentiate school from the street.

***********


Actually this is not completely accurate Moses. Being in school doesnt mean the students give up all of their civil rights. It's true that they are lessened to some extent however.

[BC-Axeman]

I believe I read somewhere that 40 percent of the school is considered "Hispanic" but that ethnic background is no indication of how many are American. In fact, I would say that the vast majority of the students are probably American citizens.

I don't think the kids were trying to start a riot by wearing the American flag. I do think they were trying to make a statement about the school celebrating "Cinco de Mayo."
This was the only point. They were just showing love for their country on a day that the government school was showing love for a foreign country.
Now the "hispanic" students are marching through the streets demanding respect. You don't demand respect, you earn it.
I think the V.P. didn't know what he was starting or he would have done something different.

[neoflex]

I thought Cinco De Mayo was a holiday that us Gringos used as an excuse to drink????:confused::r

[kydsid]

UPDATE:

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local-beat/School-District-American-Flag-Clothing-Incident-Extremely-Unfortunate-93065324.html

[Darrell]

UPDATE:

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local-beat/School-District-American-Flag-Clothing-Incident-Extremely-Unfortunate-93065324.html

I'm glad to see they pulled their heads out of their asses.

[taltos]

We were discussing history and how it affects the symbolism and politics of a nation in my Political Science class today. After a story of someone wearing a Hitler costume on Halloween to a class with a Jewish professor, and wearing a KKK outfit to a class with an African American professor, our professor brought up this topic. Although it is not as blunt as the other two stories given, the point was still quite obvious. A possibly volatile situation is was dealt with before it had a chance to escalate. With the racial profiling and immigration laws of recent years and especially as of late going on today the message the boys were sending was obviously of an aggressive nature. Before one blames the principal for his actions they should try walking in his shoes first.

America is a beautiful melting pot comprised of it's diverse population. The various ethnic and cultural backgrounds which makes up America should all be respected and well treated.

Instead of spending so much energy on this topic take a poke at some of these folks.
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map

P.S. Why is this thread still open? It is clearly political.I have stayed out of this until this post. The various ethnic and cultural groups owe their first loyalty to this country and to our country's flag and this used to be the way it was. Your hate map includes the various organizations dedicated to enforcing immigration laws so it lacks some credibility.

[taltos]

I also did not see in this thread a little item being reported in the main stream media that at least two of the students were of mixed ethnic heritage, white and Mexican. Not shocked to see that this happened in the Bay area.

[akumushi]

I have stayed out of this until this post. The various ethnic and cultural groups owe their first loyalty to this country and to our country's flag and this used to be the way it was. Your hate map includes the various organizations dedicated to enforcing immigration laws so it lacks some credibility.

Read the description (http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/groups/american-border-patrol/american-patrol)of the groups you mentioned, they seem to be organizations dedicated to enforcing immigration laws with ties to white supremecist groups and that's why they're on the hate map. SLPC tracks, monitors and uses litigation to fight violent and abusive hate groups, they've won victories against the KKK and other white supremecist groups that are responsible for a lot of heinous crimes that you probably wouldn't approve of. You might want to read a little more into their history before you dismiss their credibility. And just in case you think they have a anti-white agenda, they track the black seperatists and radical jewish hate groups as well. The only place they could use to work more is helping keep an eye on Islamic hate groups.:2

[kydsid]

Just watched a Fox News clip with one of the kids involved. He had a great line.

I never thought I would be on National TV for wearing an American Flag in America

[King James]

Supreme court said it best with students "not shedding their rights at the schoolhouse gate". Not sure to what point they can restrict dress, but I don't agree with the school officials at all

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

I'm not stating ignorance in all things. Apparently there is some ignorance involved in this issue if antagonism in this case cannot be seen when it is so clear. Ignorance is "lack of knowledge" and when used correctly pertains to something rather than the whole. If it is truly believed that there was no ill will on the part of the kids then there is likely some ignorance involved in experience with these matters.

Oh, and Darrell, we are all ignorant in regards to at least some things. If you and I weren't, for example, we wouldn't be in school now, would we?

How would you say that the antagonism is so clear?





Also, like Tom said, Im sure we can all keep this NON-political:)

I guess the mods should have said to keep it non-political and also RESPECTFUL.:rolleyes:

[mariogolbee]

How would you say that the antagonism is so clear?

Again, if you don't get it then you just do not get it, period.


I guess the mods should have said to keep it non-political and also RESPECTFUL.:rolleyes:
I did not see that stating the obvious is disrespectful and I meant no disrespect by it.

[icehog3]

Nate amd Mario, maybe it's time for this to go to PMs. ;)

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

I did not see that stating the obvious is disrespectful and I meant no disrespect by it.


I didn't know it was so obvious that I was ignorant... oh well