How do you describe Complexity??

[wayner123]

Last night I was enjoying a cigar that I am going to review. As I smoked I was thinking of different ways of describing the flavors I got. Afterwards I had one taste that I couldn't really describe, and I thought to myself "is that what some might call complex"?

So I wanted to pose the question here and get all of your thoughts on it. How do you describe complexity?

To me I have always described complexity as a change of flavors. IE; one minute you taste hints of vanilla, the next a little spice, the next puff something else, etc. But in my recalling of flavors last night, I could see where someone might describe complexity as flavors they can't describe. A mixture of flavors instead of singular flavor that changes. So what say you?

[lightning9191]

I'd go with a little of both views.

[guado]

I stopped reviewing a while ago as it was killing my enjoyment of cigars.

I will say this. IMO Complexity is when a cigar gives you so much more than just a simple flavor and smoke. A cigar that boggles the mind that you wonder..."WOW, that was awesome and I am not sure why!" Even a cigar that has 2 or 3 changes through the smoke make not be complex IMO.

Some cigars are good, they taste nice and when they are done, they're done. The complex ones for me are the ones that when done just make me sit back and reflect on that cigar for quite sometime. Those are also generally the cigars that I actually don't put out around the halfway point or so...

[T.G]

To me I have always described complexity as a change of flavors. IE; one minute you taste hints of vanilla, the next a little spice, the next puff something else, etc.

I personally would call that "dynamic".


A mixture of flavors instead of singular flavor that changes.

That is precisely how I would describe "complex" also; a mixture of multiple interrelated flavors going on at one time.


But in my recalling of flavors last night, I could see where someone might describe complexity as flavors they can't describe.

I would call those "flavors I can't describe". ;)

[icehog3]

Multiple changes in flavor.

A "marrying" of flavors that is unusual.

These are two things I consider complexity in a cigar, but I an open to others' interpretations if they ring true to me.

[akumushi]

For me, for a cigar to be complex, it has to have two factors, a combination of multiple flavors at once, with at least 3 phase changes throughout the cigar. A cigar with a bunch of flavors all at once that I cant tease out and indentify is generally "muddled" while complexity usually implies balance to me.

[icehog3]

For me, for a cigar to be complex, it has to have two factors, a combination of multiple flavors at once, with at least 3 phase changes throughout the cigar. A cigar with a bunch of flavors all at once that I cant tease out and indentify is generally "muddled" while complexity usually implies balance to me.

Good point, Clayton.

[elderboy02]

Multiple changes in flavor.

A "marrying" of flavors that is unusual.

These are two things I consider complexity in a cigar, but I an open to others' interpretations if they ring true to me.

:tpd:

[poker]

According to Wikipedia:

In general usage, complexity tends to be used to characterize something with many parts in intricate arrangement.

I would think the term "complex" can mean different things to different folks when referencing a cigar.

[mosesbotbol]

Multiple layers of flavors. Some may be more pronounced or I have an anfinity to recognize, while others I notice, but do not know what they are. Smoking with someone with different taste and palate will help you discover new flavors in anything.

As much as I like to smoke with people who love the same cigars as I... I want to smoke with someone who may dislike my favorites. I am curious to explore their perspective some.

Woody, mossy, and beany would describe the prolife I like most in cigars. Also lead to why I may talk up one cigar or be indifferent to another...

[wayner123]

I would think the term "complex" can mean different things to different folks when referencing a cigar.

I fully agree, that's exactly why I posed the question. :)

[tx_tuff]

For me it is both the changing of flavors and multi flavors at the same time. But most all what matters is that you are enjoying what you are smoking!

[longknocker]

Multiple layers of flavors. Some may be more pronounced or I have an anfinity to recognize, while others I notice, but do not know what they are. Smoking with someone with different taste and palate will help you discover new flavors in anything.

As much as I like to smoke with people who love the same cigars as I... I want to smoke with someone who may dislike my favorites. I am curious to explore their perspective some.

Woody, mossy, and beany would describe the prolife I like most in cigars. Also lead to why I may talk up one cigar or be indifferent to another...

Complex To Me Means That I Can Discern A Variety Of Flavors. Don't Mean To Thread Jack, But What Do You Mean By "Woody, Mossy, & Beany"?
Thanks!:tu

[poker]

I fully agree, that's exactly why I posed the question. :)

Gotcha. Well, complex to me it means a changing and layering of flavors. :)

[hotreds]

It's complicated!

[Subvet642]

Complexity is anything I can't taste.

[mosesbotbol]

Complex To Me Means That I Can Discern A Variety Of Flavors. Don't Mean To Thread Jack, But What Do You Mean By "Woody, Mossy, & Beany"?
Thanks!:tu

Cigars that have wood flavors which fall into moss like flavors. Punch is known for such notes in their cigars and also something that comes from age. The bean flavors include coffee, cocoa, actual beans like mung or vanila. Quite pronounced in Cohiba and Montecristo, but also to degrees in many cigars.

Others may prefer cigars that are spicy, herbaceous, floral, or leather tasting.

[ODLS1]

In cigars (and beer especially for me), complexity is a multitude of flavors and aromas blending together nicely, but not forming a single flavor or aroma. It is something that has many aspects to it. You may not be able to decipher each flavor and aroma, but it should be noticeable that there are many there.

[stearns]

In cigars (and beer especially for me), complexity is a multitude of flavors and aromas blending together nicely, but not forming a single flavor or aroma. It is something that has many aspects to it. You may not be able to decipher each flavor and aroma, but it should be noticeable that there are many there.

wow, i read the first post and couldnt think of a way to word my definition of the word, but this hit the nail on the head perfectly (in my opinion). well done :tu

stearns

[ODLS1]

Thank ya sir!

[Havanaaddict]

Complex- Means to me multiple rich flavours coating my palate!!!

[wolfandwhisky]

For me, for a cigar to be complex, it has to have two factors, a combination of multiple flavors at once, with at least 3 phase changes throughout the cigar. A cigar with a bunch of flavors all at once that I cant tease out and indentify is generally "muddled" while complexity usually implies balance to me.

I agree with Clayton - I want multiple flavors that are balanced, where the flavors complement or otherwise benefit each other.

For example, almonds, toffee, and vanilla can create a great balance (ie Fuente Magnum) where seaweed and pepper do not work well with mocha and cream (ie RP Edge Maduro).

[akumushi]

I agree with Clayton - I want multiple flavors that are balanced, where the flavors complement or otherwise benefit each other.

For example, almonds, toffee, and vanilla can create a great balance (ie Fuente Magnum) where seaweed and pepper do not work well with mocha and cream (ie RP Edge Maduro).
:pu
:r:r

[wayner123]

Very interesting on some of the replies. Personally, if a cigar has a nice set of flavors that are balanced, I describe the cigar as balanced not complex. But that is what it means to ME. I do like T.G.'s response of dynamic vs complex and maybe that is more in line to how I should describe it.

To me balance seems more of the multiple flavors that combine and i can't pick out some, but it's still all in "balance" to me.

Where as complex, I can describe or pick out each flavor.

LOL, but that's backwards it seems to most of the replies so far. I really enjoy the replies. Sometimes words are used and they can have certain meanings based on a person's understanding of it. And that may not translate well to someone who smokes that same cigar and finds it "different" for lack of a better term.

[SmokinApe]

Can a terrible cigar be called complex? For example if it has a layering of multiple flavors; cat piss, old cardboard, gas fumes and paint... is it complex?

[pitbulljimmy]

IMO, Yes, a dog-rocket can still be complex. Taste is subjective.

[SmokinApe]

IMO, Yes, a dog-rocket can still be complex. Taste is subjective.


Interesting, I have only heard "complex" used to describe what were reported to be "good" cigars...

I like to use words to describe cigars that cannot be contextualized; twangy, oomph, rich, chewy and of course complex... If these words are subject to individual interpretation, as discussed with complex, what is the purpose of using them...? It would seem they present no consumable value to the target audience...

[Bigwaved]

I would think the term "complex" can mean different things to different folks when referencing a cigar.That is exactly what came to my mind (except it may not have been put into words as well as Kelly, but he is old. He should be a better 'splainer :D). With most things in life, faced with the exact same thing, some may find it complex, some may not, depending on so many factors like experience, for example. With cigars, it is no different, I believe.

[icehog3]

Interesting, I have only heard "complex" used to describe what were reported to be "good" cigars...

I like to use words to describe cigars that cannot be contextualized; twangy, oomph, rich, chewy and of course complex... If these words are subject to individual interpretation, as discussed with complex, what is the purpose of using them...? It would seem they present no consumable value to the target audience...

I think some people, epecially through shared experience (like smoking the same cigars, or Puff-Puff-Passes), may have shared interpretations of words like "complex", "chewy" and "rich", among others. Subjective, yes, but exclusionary? I don't think so.

Twang? I don't like that one. :r

[SmokinApe]

I think some people, epecially through shared experience (like smoking the same cigars, or Puff-Puff-Passes), may have shared interpretations of words like "complex", "chewy" and "rich", among others. Subjective, yes, but exclusionary? I don't think so.

Twang? I don't like that one. :r

Good point about shared experiences... I do get a chuckle when I hear some descriptions tho... "I was blessed with a rich and chewey smoke that finished with a complex twang."

Oh and about a cigar tasting twangy, prolly better than tasting wangy...

[icehog3]

Oh and about a cigar tasting twangy, prolly better than tasting wangy...

True dat. :r

[68TriShield]

Good point about shared experiences... I do get a chuckle when I hear some descriptions tho... "I was blessed with a rich and chewey smoke that finished with a complex twang."

Oh and about a cigar tasting twangy, prolly better than tasting wangy...
And Jeremy knows wangy... :su

[SmokinApe]

And Jeremy knows wangy... :su

Lol...

I guess I left myself open for that one...

[St. Lou Stu]

Can a terrible cigar be called complex? For example if it has a layering of multiple flavors; cat piss, old cardboard, gas fumes and paint... is it complex?

Reading through this whole thread and I agree with the complex is a variety of different flavors coming throughout the duration of the cigar, sometimes multiple flavors at once.
That said, yes, bad cigars can have complexity. Complexity isn't always enjoyable. Just like chics.... complex can be good.... or crazy bad.

I had a Sig II the other evening that was either too young or sick and it was complex, but shitty. Almonds, Tannin, Wet Hay, and Citrus throughout I could pick em all out, but bitter Almond and tannin killed it.

[wolfandwhisky]

I agree with Tim - while I think complex is generally used to describe a positive aspect of a cigar, it needs explanation - just like Tim's explanation of the Sig II.

Dog rockets can be complex - don't believe me? Feed your dog a buffet and wait...