This "Only GRINDERS" thread is not for you if...

[Mister Moo]

...you only make (and only ever plan to make) coffee in a drip maker with paper filters. (takes deep breath...) Unless you already buy professionally ground coffee beans a quality conical burr mill opens up a broad range of brewing methods and, likely as not, will improve the quality of whatever coffee you're already drinking.

A high end grinder is optimized for all coffee brewing methods particularly espresso/turkish and/or volume grinding (Mazzer, Macap, etc.). Lifetime investment. Zero upgrade pangs.

An intermediate grinder is optimized for all coffee needs and may perform well for espresso and moderate grinding volume (MDF, Rocky, etc.). Long term unit. Slight upgrade nervousness if espresso or volume grinding comes to the forefront.

A low end grinder is optimized for drip (paper or goldfilter) and may perform well for press, vacpot and, probably, mokapot. Less than 10-year investment and best for low volume. Zero upgrade trembling if you stick to drip and press - otherwise, thoughts of more control and less dust will begin to haunt you.

Grinders are very much a "get what you pay for" thing. Cheap grinders don't do well for demanding brewers and expensive grinders will break the budget of someone who cannot already smoke $10 cigars all day long. When you think grinder (IMO), think about future needs and alternate brewing methods and get the very best you can afford.

I am a firm believer in avoiding used grinders. Possible exception: professionally rebuilt/refurbed and waranteed machines. Miracles happen but most "I just got a great deal on a used grinder off ebay" stories are disappointments. Good grinders stay in the family - spent-out grinders slide quietly off to auction (like horses).

[muziq]

I'll post a "huzza!" for my grinder, a Rancilio Rocky--doserless model. Picked it up early this year, after a stint with a whirly blade, followed by picking up professionally ground beans once a week. Here's how it broke down for me:

1) Whirly blade - just didn't play well with my Mukka Express, Mokapot, or french press. Everything from dust to grit came through, and of course there's no way to control grind size, so I quickly gave this up and went in another direction.

2) Ground by the store - this was a *significant* improvement in my end result, but there were a few caveats. First, I had to more or less choose my method for making coffee for a week at a time, given that the grind was being done at the roaster; one week of french press, one week of Mokapot = not a lot of variation. Also, after about the 2nd or 3rd day, I noticed that the quality fo the cup went down, as if the flavors were being siphoned off slowly. By the end of the week, even the most perfectly roasted beans became dull and lifeless.

3) Rocky - although I *must* defer to Moo about the quality, as I'm just a coffee neophyte, this thing *feels* like it's made for a lifetime of good grinding given that I have no plans to expand the family nor to open an espresso storefront on the porch every Saturday. Weighs a ton, or 20 lbs, something like that. Grinding fresh each morning, the grind being dialed in exactly for whatever my needs might be, I never fail to get a cup that's far superior to anything from Charbucks, or from most other indie coffee shops save for the places with the very best baristas. I've made everything from regular drip coffee to Turkish coffee using this grinder, and the results are always nothing short of fantastic.

I have no doubt a Mazzer would take my cup to the next level if I were to augment it with a great espresso machine and months--years--of practice. No doubt at all.

However, the value-add of the $250-300 it takes to go up to a good quality grinder like a Rocky is a no-brainer--I've spent less on coffee at coffeehouses since getting the Rocky, because I know I can usually match their cup or go them one better, for a fraction of the over-the-counter cost.

[Mister Moo]

- although I *must* defer to Moo about the quality
Bad precedent. Nobody else does on this topic. Mostly I get socked in the eyeball because grinder discussions are where my natural azzozole'ness ALWAYS comes to the front. Hopeless.

I have no doubt a Mazzer would take my cup to the next level if I were to augment it with a great espresso machine and months--years--of practice. No doubt at all.
I would doubt that, although I've only used a Rocky once. Rocky grinder quality is the stuff of legend and the product has a great following. The stepless Mazzer will MAYBE grind a little better than a Rocky but it will probably have a longer service life. My take: a Mazzer is a commercial machine with 64mm burrs designed to run pounds/day for years; the Rocky exhibits commercial grinding quality with 50mm burrs at lower volume output.

Somebody figures these things out but I am only educated-guessing here. Seems like there is a speed limit to burr revs before you must overheat the coffee being ground. If so, output (in the mystical measure of grams/minute of a given fineness) must be greater for a machine with larger burrs than with smaller ones. Motive force must also be higher so, bigger burrs get bigger motors - bigger motors get heavier frames, etc. etc.

[Mister Moo]

The man asks:

Originally Posted by leasingthisspace
I hope I am in the correct thread.I have a question. Is this a starter level burr grinder?
http://www.ecost.com/detail.aspx?edp...i_sku=41249507

Will this grind the beans better and more evenly then the cheap one with a blade I have now? To step up my coffeeness (new word maybe?) should I even bother or do I need to spend lots of money on my grinder to taste a difference? I plan on brewing out of this when I get home.
http://www.thegourmetdepotco.com/sto....asp?item=3839

I look forward to the advice.I think we need a better link, sir.

[leasingthisspace]

I guess my link went bad. I have been a drinker of the drip for a few years now but I want to do myself better then that so after reading a bit I started looking around.
http://www.thecateringchef.net/melitta-burr-coffee-grinders.html
I found this burr grinder for around 30 bucks. My question is will it help to step my coffeeness up or inorder to taste a difference I need to spend 100+ on the grinder. Since I am starting down the road for better coffee I am also getting a Bialetti Moka Express 3-Cup Espresso Maker.
Thanks for the advice.

[Cigary]

I so badly want to become a coffee conessiur but alas, my coffee pot and grinder are just run of the mill products.

[Swampper]

Mister Moo is spot-on as always. Regarding ebay, new stuff can be found there too...

Also, I don't like to compromise on things I use and depend on every day.
Or at least I rationalize spending more on stuff I will be using alot.

I'm not sure why I picked a Mazzer over the Rocky, but that grinder is such a fine piece of equipment, I never looked back.

[Mister Moo]

I guess my link went bad. I have been a drinker of the drip for a few years now but I want to do myself better then that so after reading a bit I started looking around.
http://www.thecateringchef.net/melitta-burr-coffee-grinders.html
I found this burr grinder for around 30 bucks. My question is will it help to step my coffeeness up or inorder to taste a difference I need to spend 100+ on the grinder. Since I am starting down the road for better coffee I am also getting a Bialetti Moka Express 3-Cup Espresso Maker.
Thanks for the advice.I think folks are leaning to Cuisinarts for best entry-level burr mills. Bodum Antigua is always a favorite, too. I have heard nothing good about the Melitta (or bad) but plenty of nice comments on the Cuisinart and Bodum.

Low end grinders make a lot of noise, are slow and produce a lot of dust and static compared to higher grade machines. Fact is, though, they work fine for drip, press and moka if you don't mind a little extra sludge. I don't. Stir/swirl and it all goes to the bottom of the cup anyhow. If you like the results think about a better machine on down the road.

As to Swampy's remarks on the Mazzer, I concur. I wish everything else in the world worked as well as a Mazzer. I use mine daily, sometimes grinding pounds/day, with only a burrset change after five years.

[muziq]

Bad precedent. Nobody else does on this topic. Mostly I get socked in the eyeball because grinder discussions are where my natural azzozole'ness ALWAYS comes to the front. Hopeless.

While self-deprecation is certainly your strong suit (and you're quite funny about it, too), the Word of Moo is trustworthy in the coffee forums. Noobs and experts alike have a lot to learn from you...both about coffee and how to build a friendly com-moo-nity. :tu

[muziq]

My question is will it help to step my coffeeness up or inorder to taste a difference I need to spend 100+ on the grinder. Since I am starting down the road for better coffee I am also getting a Bialetti Moka Express 3-Cup Espresso Maker.
Thanks for the advice.

It has been my experience that you get what you pay for when it comes to coffee equipment. A $30 grinder may certainly impact your cup quality and enjoyment--it did for me. And $30 isn't much to cry over if you wake up one morning a year or two from now thinking, "I need to slide faster down the coffee slope." Moo makes good points about what to expect with blade grinders and the noise they generate, so just keep that in mind. Enjoy!

[leasingthisspace]

Thanks for the help everyone.

[Mister Moo]

Thanks for the help everyone.
I think these are the ones people are leaning towards, now, as a good entry burrmills, from $30 to $130:

http://store3-store.stores.yahoo.net/cubumicogrwi.html
http://www.espressozone.com/7007.html
http://www.espressozone.com/6020.html

[leasingthisspace]

Thanks Mister Moo. 40 for a step in the right direction is money well spent.

[floydpink]

I learned the hard way that with grinders, go for the good one first time or don't bother. Messing around with poor ones wastes time and money if you're planning on sticking around the hobby for a while.

I still wish I had a Mazzer, but do pretty well with the MDF.

[Mister Moo]

... good entry burrmills, from $30 to $130:

http://store3-store.stores.yahoo.net/cubumicogrwi.html
http://www.espressozone.com/7007.html
http://www.capresso.com/coffee-grinders-burr-infinity.shtml
http://www.espressozone.com/6020.html

[trogdor]

After the whirly grinder, I started with a cheap burr grinder - worked OK for a few months of almost daily use for drip/french press/mokapot then crapped out.

Lello Ariete Burr Coffee Grinder - $50 at Amazon, not worth it.

[davearob]

I just purchased the Bodum Antigua grinder. I started using it this weekend with great results. The fine grind is perfect. Far better than what I was using. I have one question though. Can any one tell me where I could find directions (pictures) on assembly so I can take the bottom end apart for cleaning. I didn't get anything with the machine.

[Da Klugs]

...you only make (and only ever plan to make) coffee in a drip maker with paper filters. (takes deep breath...) Unless you already buy professionally ground coffee beans a quality conical burr mill opens up a broad range of brewing methods and, likely as not, will improve the quality of whatever coffee you're already drinking.

A high end grinder is optimized for all coffee brewing methods particularly espresso/turkish and/or volume grinding (Mazzer, Macap, etc.). Lifetime investment. Zero upgrade pangs.

An intermediate grinder is optimized for all coffee needs and may perform well for espresso and moderate grinding volume (MDF, Rocky, etc.). Long term unit. Slight upgrade nervousness if espresso or volume grinding comes to the forefront.

A low end grinder is optimized for drip (paper or goldfilter) and may perform well for press, vacpot and, probably, mokapot. Less than 10-year investment and best for low volume. Zero upgrade trembling if you stick to drip and press - otherwise, thoughts of more control and less dust will begin to haunt you.

Grinders are very much a "get what you pay for" thing. Cheap grinders don't do well for demanding brewers and expensive grinders will break the budget of someone who cannot already smoke $10 cigars all day long. When you think grinder (IMO), think about future needs and alternate brewing methods and get the very best you can afford.

I am a firm believer in avoiding used grinders. Possible exception: professionally rebuilt/refurbed and waranteed machines. Miracles happen but most "I just got a great deal on a used grinder off ebay" stories are disappointments. Good grinders stay in the family - spent-out grinders slide quietly off to auction (like horses).


So my friend.... in the office I currently use the attached set-up. What are your thoughts as Christmas is approaching and Jane is always needing suggestions.

Thanks!

[EvanS]

Dave, I think you had better revisit Moo's grinder list, as that Sqeezinart will do a decent job while it's working. But the longevity is suspect in my experience (meaning I learned after the 2nd one in 3 years).

Oh yeah, and get some real coffee so you can ditch the creamer :(

[Da Klugs]

Dave, I think you had better revisit Moo's grinder list, as that Sqeezinart will do a decent job while it's working. But the longevity is suspect in my experience (meaning I learned after the 2nd one in 3 years).

Oh yeah, and get some real coffee so you can ditch the creamer :(

I gots to have my creamer and 2 splendas. Probably like my view of folks that smoke acids but it's just what I like.

New grinder = good idea. Jane likes to spoil me so.. good one?

[Resipsa]

Dave, I think you had better revisit Moo's grinder list, as that Sqeezinart will do a decent job while it's working. But the longevity is suspect in my experience (meaning I learned after the 2nd one in 3 years).

Oh yeah, and get some real coffee so you can ditch the creamer :(We're working on him Ev's we're working on him;)

I gots to have my creamer and 2 splendas. Probably like my view of folks that smoke acids but it's just what I like.

New grinder = good idea. Jane likes to spoil me so.. good one?Dave, I like the Baratza Virtuouso for everyday all round grinding. Solid construction, dependable, does a great job grinding and just one step below the "major" coffee grinders and worth the money, but not cheap.

[MithShrike]

I love my Zass.

[Mister Moo]

...New grinder = good idea. Jane likes to spoil me so.. good one?The Good Jane.

1. Anything less than the best would not match the humidor motif.
2. To make to-die-for moka and espresso down the road may harken.
3. Possible coffee drinking crowds (e.g. Shackie thing) demands capacity.

If Jane has an unlimited budget and she is not afraid to overspend it, don't **** around. Select among the three or four of the top-rated burr mills according to style, size (will it fit under the cabinets, etc.) and color. The top 10 best of the bunch all do a lifetime job brilliantly, Dave. Nobody moves up the grinder ladder, ever, and sez, "Feh. THAT was a waste."

MazzerMini
Macap
Pasquini

Keep the old grinder for decaf, flavored beans, the boat house - whatever.

[Mister Moo]

MazzerMini
Macap
PasquiniJeez - another thing. Consider in the mix, besides the cosmetics of machine height or color and cord location, the doser and auto-timer options.

Doser is good for espresso, but only when you're making at least three or four at a time. Otherwise, it is in ther way and one more thing to keep clean. I like a doser given that I make a lot of espresso but many people find them inconvenient.

The on/off timer is something I never have used. If you're tending to make a pot of coffee in the same machine, regularly, I can see where a timer would be a good thing. Turn it on and it shoots out a measured amount of grind, just right for your Teknikalkworm basket, and then shuts itself off. No waste - no minding the button while you're running the water or flipping the bacon or telling Jane, over and over, how much you appreciate the new grinder with the timer on it.

[Da Klugs]

We're working on him Ev's we're working on him;)

Dave, I like the Baratza Virtuouso for everyday all round grinding. Solid construction, dependable, does a great job grinding and just one step below the "major" coffee grinders and worth the money, but not cheap.

And it is and always be the "Shack Grinder" :tu

The Good Jane.

1. Anything less than the best would not match the humidor motif.
2. To make to-die-for moka and espresso down the road may harken.
3. Possible coffee drinking crowds (e.g. Shackie thing) demands capacity.

If Jane has an unlimited budget and she is not afraid to overspend it, don't **** around. Select among the three or four of the top-rated burr mills according to style, size (will it fit under the cabinets, etc.) and color. The top 10 best of the bunch all do a lifetime job brilliantly, Dave. Nobody moves up the grinder ladder, ever, and sez, "Feh. THAT was a waste."

MazzerMini
Macap
Pasquini

Keep the old grinder for decaf, flavored beans, the boat house - whatever.

So assuming she loves me alot and I have an 18 inch high counter area that is 3x2... the specific reccomendation is.... :D

[EvanS]

Rancillio Rocky has served me well and fits the niche between $Moo$ grinders and the $200-and-under set. Personally I think that for the low-mid-$300 price tag it is much closer to a top tier grinder than the price would lead you to believe

[tsolomon]

Dave, I like the Baratza Virtuouso for everyday all round grinding. Solid construction, dependable, does a great job grinding and just one step below the "major" coffee grinders and worth the money, but not cheap.I was looking at buying one of these refurbed directly from Baratza to save a little money. That's about the same price as the Capresso Infinity and Bodum Antigua which are new. What would be the best choice at that price point? I tend to shy away from refurb for the most part. :confused: Thanks

[Mister Moo]

And it is and always be the "Shack Grinder" :tu



So assuming she loves me alot and I have an 18 inch high counter area that is 3x2... the specific reccomendation is.... :DThey do make a shorter hopper for the Mazzer these days but, short or tall it's my first pick. Nobody ever got one and said, "Feh. This thing sucks."

The Macap may be the equal of the Mazzer for a few clams less and, in most peoples opinion, it comes in a package more pleasing to the eye. It lacks history to speak for future performance but looks great in the here and now.

Macap owners tend toward an irrational exuburance - and a jingoistic, "My grinder, right or wrong!" mentality which cannot be explained by anything except the poisonous, toxic gasses Macaps release, Mazzer owners claim. I think the imbalances that have occured in BigWaved and ResIpsa since they got Macaps validates the Mazzerian argument.

The Rocky is a legendary, fine grinder for a younger (or less worldly) man than yourself, Dave; it's a finely tuned 599cc crotch rocket in the shadow of a Harley Ultra Classic. (gentle shrug - fine grinder, a Rocky, but not up to the demands of someone who may pursue coffee with even 10% of the vigor you pursue cigars. C'mon...

Let Jane decide. If you get a Macap just keep a few windows open to cross-ventilate. Hope this is helpful. :)

http://www.1st-line.com/machines/comm_mod/grinder/index.htm

[Sr Mike]

Wow, I did not know some grinders had such steep prices. I think I will have to stick with grinding my coffee with my shoe, my taxes are going up.

[Resipsa]

They do make a shorter hopper for the Mazzer these days but, short or tall it's my first pick. Nobody ever got one and said, "Feh. This thing sucks."

The Macap may be the equal of the Mazzer for a few clams less and, in most peoples opinion, it comes in a package more pleasing to the eye. It lacks history to speak for future performance but looks great in the here and now.

Macap owners tend toward an irrational exuburance - and a jingoistic, "My grinder, right or wrong!" mentality which cannot be explained by anything except the poisonous, toxic gasses Macaps release, Mazzer owners claim. I think the imbalances that have occured in BigWaved and ResIpsa since they got Macaps validates the Mazzerian argument.

The Rocky is a legendary, fine grinder for a younger (or less worldly) man than yourself, Dave; it's a finely tuned 599cc crotch rocket in the shadow of a Harley Ultra Classic. (gentle shrug - fine grinder, a Rocky, but not up to the demands of someone who may pursue coffee with even 10% of the vigor you pursue cigars. C'mon...

Let Jane decide. If you get a Macap just keep a few windows open to cross-ventilate. Hope this is helpful. :)

http://www.1st-line.com/machines/comm_mod/grinder/index.htm
Mister Moo, you do make me laugh, :r

[Mister Moo]

Mister Moo, you do make me laugh, :rWTH... it's my thread. Truth is overrated.

[EvanS]

The Rocky is a legendary, fine grinder for a younger .... man than yourself, Dave

I knew, felt, that there was something other than quality that led me to the Rocky.

[MithShrike]

Wow, I did not know some grinders had such steep prices. I think I will have to stick with grinding my coffee with my shoe, my taxes are going up.

The Zassenhaus is a great alternative if you don't mind working for your coffee a little.

[havana_lover]

I think folks are leaning to Cuisinarts for best entry-level burr mills. Bodum Antigua is always a favorite, too. I have heard nothing good about the Melitta (or bad) but plenty of nice comments on the Cuisinart and Bodum.

Low end grinders make a lot of noise, are slow and produce a lot of dust and static compared to higher grade machines. Fact is, though, they work fine for drip, press and moka if you don't mind a little extra sludge. I don't. Stir/swirl and it all goes to the bottom of the cup anyhow. If you like the results think about a better machine on down the road.

As to Swampy's remarks on the Mazzer, I concur. I wish everything else in the world worked as well as a Mazzer. I use mine daily, sometimes grinding pounds/day, with only a burrset change after five years.

now the question is, what is a good mid based quality grinder for espresso?? (not that I am looking my self)

[Mister Moo]

now the question is, what is a good mid based quality grinder for espresso?? (not that I am looking my self)With the dollar weak I am not sure what mid-priced means anymore but Rocky (Rancilio) is probably the start of "good" espresso grinders. The comparatively flimsy Bodum Antigua and Solis Maestro are the beginning of passable and, relatively speaking, low-priced. They are both good grinders but will not have the durability or long-lived quality that comes from the Rocky and those higher up the scale.

There is a large user-review database of grinders at http://coffeegeek.com/reviews/grinders. It is helpful if you are patient.

[havana_lover]

With the dollar weak I am not sure what mid-priced means anymore but Rocky (Rancilio) is probably the start of "good" espresso grinders. The comparatively flimsy Bodum Antigua and Solis Maestro are the beginning of passable and, relatively speaking, low-priced. They are both good grinders but will not have the durability or long-lived quality that comes from the Rocky and those higher up the scale.

There is a large user-review database of grinders at http://coffeegeek.com/reviews/grinders. It is helpful if you are patient.

thanks for the reply..

I do have another question my "espresso maker" is a bit quick when it comes to pulling a shot. It takes about 5 to 6 secs for the pressure to build and coffee starts to come out... and it takes about 23 secs to pull shot but I just dont get the volume of crema in my shots.. I do have to say that I dont have a grinder yet so I use, dare I say it.. store bought and store ground beans..

[Mister Moo]

...my "espresso maker" is a bit quick when it comes to pulling a shot...Same with Val Kilmer in Tombstone.

http://flashyourstache.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/doc_holliday.jpg

Best to ask this in the "Espresso" thread. Troubleshooting espresso gets into a lot of areas. Repost at http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1192

[havana_lover]

Same with Val Kilmer in Tombstone.

http://flashyourstache.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/doc_holliday.jpg

Best to ask this in the "Espresso" thread. Troubleshooting espresso gets into a lot of areas. Repost at http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1192


thanks for pointing me in the right direction

[Mister Moo]

thanks for pointing me in the right directionI'm your huckleberry.

[Alpedhuez55]

My Gaggia MDF has worked great for me. Had it over a year with no issues whatsoever.

I got a cheap capresso burr grinder I use for drip and press, but it seems to make too much powder. I will be in the market for another one soon.

As for my braun burr grinder, I have put it to good use as well. I grind spices with it. I ground cinnamon sticks for my apple pie for thanksgiving. much better than the pre ground stuff.

[Alfred]

I waited to buy for a very long time-not wanting to spend the money, but insisting on long term quality. One option (among others already discussed here) shown to me was the Spanish made Cunill Tranquilo:

http://sovranastore.com/esgrin.html

I know it's served the detail orientated suggestor well for years. That said, I finally opted for the Mazzer Mini to go with my Expobar Brewtus. I really prefer to do these things once if possible.

[Mister Moo]

I waited to buy for a very long time-not wanting to spend the money, but insisting on long term quality. One option (among others already discussed here) shown to me was the Spanish made Cunill Tranquilo:

http://sovranastore.com/esgrin.html

I know it's served the detail orientated suggestor well for years. That said, I finally opted for the Mazzer Mini to go with my Expobar Brewtus. I really prefer to do these things once if possible.I think the Cunill/Espagnas are well regarded but I know the Mazzer is a once-per-lifetime home machine. You won't be disappointed.

How do you like the Brewtus? How long have you had it?

[Alfred]

I think the Cunill/Espagnas are well regarded but I know the Mazzer is a once-per-lifetime home machine. You won't be disappointed.

How do you like the Brewtus?

Thus far with the Mazzer-I'm very happy. Easy to adjust for whatever bean and seems built tank solid-which is what I was looking for.

As to the Expobar Brewtus-the very first machine I considered was the Silvia. But it seemed most (or many) who bought the Silvia, while very happy with it, consistently stepped up. So, to avoid that-I made 2 steps instead of one, though more expensive at the offset, I thought cheaper then having bought 2 units over time. I REALLY like it. Easy to operate and consistently produces what I'm looking for. It's the older model-non PID with a vibratory pump versus the third version (with PID and rotary). But with the the second versions introductory price and performance, a great value. My shot of choice is the Malabar Gold. I really need to try the Black Cat.

[Mister Moo]

Thus far with the Mazzer ... built tank solid...Note on Mazzer. Mine, from delivery, was very stiff handling on micro adjustments. The fineness ring was not able to be turned without one hand on the screw-in lever/handle and the other on the base of the machine. I always figured that's the way it was.

After I replaced the burrs a few months back the adjuster got even more difficult. I re-removed the top collar and meticulously cleaned the threads with a lint-free cloth and some mineral oil. Another few drops of mineral oil on the threads before reassembly and now all is smooth as silk. :tu

Expobars seem to be built for the long haul; those who have them keep them.

[Alfred]

After I replaced the burrs a few months back the adjuster got even more difficult. I re-removed the top collar and meticulously cleaned the threads with a lint-free cloth and some mineral oil. Another few drops of mineral oil on the threads before reassembly and now all is smooth as silk. :tu


Thank you for the tip! I'll keep that in mind. I'm still in the learning curve/process with this but, that's my thought approach with most endeavours since most things, on many levels, can always be better.

Again, thank you.