What do you mean by affordable - by the box?

[RevSmoke]

I have noticed a couple time people asking for advice as to affordable cigars with specific flavor profiles. However, when I think of affordable, some of the suggsted cigars would NEVER be what I consider affordable.

Now, I'm going to narrow this down a bit, I am talking about buying in quantity. While we may splurge to buy that one time stick for more than we normally would when we find one at the B&M, I am speaking about normal purchases of boxes and/or bundles.

Now, while buying a box prices can vary a bit. What I mean is, that $100 for a box of 20 is not the same as $100 for a box of 25, and certainly a far cry from $100 for a box of 50.

So, when you think of affordable - and like I said, I mean when buying a box or bundle - what do you consider an affordable price per stick?

At my home, cigars come out of what I call "disposable income." This is money that isn't part of the regular budget, could be gifts or honorariums, but it isn't normal budgeted $$.

As that is the case, I personally like to keep my cigar price under $5.00 a cigar. And I really prefer $3.50 per stick and less. If I watch the deals, I can usually manage that.

So, how about you?

[Blueface]

Affordable:
What I can get away with paying off without the wife knowing or screaming at me about it.
Affordable.:D

[Volt]

Good question Todd. For me as you say, the daily smoke, I my range is in the $4 - $7 area. Sometimes a touch more or a bit less if I'm on Cbid, but this range keeps me in just enough to smoke and bomb out (must always have ammo :D ). Typically ammo is more than I can bring myself to smoke. But as we all have have different budgets I would imagine "affordable" has a lot of room for interpretation.

[DougBushBC]

I don't smoke every day, so for me my budget can go a bit higher. I usually go for sticks in the 8-10 dollar range and smoke 3-5 per week.

[Skywalker]

Great thread Rev! You're keeping it real!!!

I love a good bargain, but I look for "value" more than cheap, if that makes sense. If I can find what I like at $2.00 or $2.50 a stick (per box/bundle) then that is what I going to purchase without question.

Is this a part of my regular household budget??? No!

I tried budgeting and doesn't work for me. I find something and spend my budget... then another deal comes up and I can't resist... then I feel guilty because I'm over my allowance!

Am I going into debt (credit) to pay? No! I go without other luxuries or entertainment!

This year I hope I do better! I have my daughter's wedding to pay for, and who knows where this economy is going to take us!

[md4958]

When I first started smoking nothing over $5 was "affordable". Now, because I smoke much less often, I prefer a nicer smoke, and I'd say $10-$12 would be "affordable". Maybe because Im smoking less than half as much as I used to.

[captain53]

I try to keep my "everyday" smokes (even though I do not smoke everyday) at around $3-3.50 maximum but I shop very hard on the specials to get good stuff for this price range. I keep 50-75 "sort of special smokes" in the humi that range from $5-10 mostly but again I buy them on the best of specials and they usually represent $10-20 retails. I keep a few (maybe 5 or 6) true "top shelf" stix in there at around $20-25 but rare for me to smoke more than 1 or 2 of these a year.:2 (I only buy NC's)

I have found if you really watch the Monster, CI and Cigar.com you can get some super stix for $2.50-3.50.:tu

[Whynot]

I generally try to stay under 4 for a regular smoke. Diesel, samplers, Famous, and RP have made that fairly easy. I smoke 1 or 2 a day. I have found Cohiba(ReD Dot obviously) Pequenos to be fairly good and cheap smokes when I am trying to squeeze 1 in at lunch or something.

[14holestogie]

The cheaper, the better. What was a range of $2-$4 a year ago has grown to $4-$8 these days. I suppose as my palate continues to morph, that could go higher, but I don't see myself spending $250 or more on a box of cigars in the future.

[captain53]

I forgot to mention that by the box I only buy two smokes, LFD's and LGC's unless there is a super box special or something unusual I want only sold by the box. These two are usually in the $150-175 range by box.

[pmwz]

affordable for me is up to 5€/stick. i dont like paying much more for a cigar. i dont really have a budget but if i buy pricier sticks i usually add a couple of RyJ mille fleurs or JLP petit cazadores to come down to a lower average stick price.

[BC-Axeman]

Most of the cigars I really like enough to keep re-buying a box of are between $5 and $10. Even cigars that go for $12 or so can be found on sale for less.
I think Bluface's definition above fits perfectly.:tu

[68TriShield]

I will rarely spend more than 140 to 150 per box.Usually it's closer to 80 to 100 dollar boxes.

[htown]

If I am buying just a few cigars I will sometimes buy in the $10-$17 range, but when buying boxes I usually stay in the $4-$6 range.

[roughrider]

$6-10 sticks for me.

[kcmontie]

I really try and stay on budget but if I see something I must have I find a way to buy it..

[Bax]

For me it's all about enjoyment of the stick. I rather enjoy 25 of a great 8 dollar stick then 50 of a so-so stick at 4 bucks a stick. That means I smoke alot less but that's OK for me. Price top outs at between 200-250 a box usually but a box might last me 10 months to a year.

[CasaDooley]

I will rarely spend more than 140 to 150 per box.Usually it's closer to 80 to 100 dollar boxes.

:tpd:Me too! I like my box prices to average out between 2.50/5.00 per stick on boxes of 25 or 50.;)

[RevSmoke]

Thanks for the comments guys.

I think life is too short to smoke cigars I don't enjoy. I try things, and may pay more than I'd normal to try them. Then, I watch for those same sticks to come into my "comfortable pricing" range.

[bobarian]

Actual price is not as relevant to me as value. I try to keep things under $200 a box and for the most part I am closer to $150. But I no longer buy NC's so does this mean I can double my price range and budget??? :D I've already exceeded by 2010 budget, but that was not the question! :r

[captain53]

I too have found this to be a very interesting thread, hope folks will keep it going a while. :tu

[SmokinApe]

I try to target 150$ for a box of 25...

[paris1129]

I don't smoke every day, so for me my budget can go a bit higher. I usually go for sticks in the 8-10 dollar range and smoke 3-5 per week.

:tpd: I smoke about every other day, on average, and I try to keep things under $10.00.

[darkninja67]

I look for $100 a box for everyday smokes then get the really good stuff for special occasions.

[paris1129]

Actual price is not as relevant to me as value. I try to keep things under $200 a box and for the most part I am closer to $150. But I no longer buy NC's so does this mean I can double my price range and budget??? :D I've already exceeded by 2010 budget, but that was not the question! :r

You've already exceeded your 2010 budget, and its only Jan 4? Wow. :confused:

[bobarian]

You've already exceeded your 2010 budget, and its only Jan 4? Wow. :confused:

Yeah, back in November! ;)

[CasaDooley]

Actual price is not as relevant to me as value. I try to keep things under $200 a box and for the most part I am closer to $150. But I no longer buy NC's so does this mean I can double my price range and budget??? :D budget I've already exceeded by 2010 , but that was not the question! :r

Budget my azz! ya can't fool me. It's only mere mortals like myself that try to stick to a budget!:r
Budget...We don't need no stinkin budget!:r

[groogs]

I have to say that I have never thought about what is "Affordable". I always have a few boxes in mind and I search for the best deal. I don't start out saying I want a box of 25 for $135, now what can I get? I say I want a box of Party Shorts, who has the best price? I have boxes of cigars that are way more than I could normally afford, but I wanted them so I saved and bought them. I am in no way suggesting that money is not an issue, because money is always an issue, but I don't have a set price per stick that I look for. I guess anything is affordable if I want it bad enough. Does that make any sense?

[NCRadioMan]

I have to say that I have never thought about what is "Affordable". I always have a few boxes in mind and I search for the best deal. I don't start out saying I want a box of 25 for $135, now what can I get? I say I want a box of Party Shorts, who has the best price? I have boxes of cigars that are way more than I could normally afford, but I wanted them so I saved and bought them. I am in no way suggesting that money is not an issue, because money is always an issue, but I don't have a set price per stick that I look for. I guess anything is affordable if I want it bad enough. Does that make any sense?

:tpd: It does to me as I am the same way.

[Powers]

affordable for me is that great deal on oliva v lanceros u beat me too ;)


:ss

[Skywalker]

Actual price is not as relevant to me as value. I try to keep things under $200 a box and for the most part I am closer to $150. But I no longer buy NC's so does this mean I can double my price range and budget??? :D I've already exceeded by 2010 budget, but that was not the question! :r

Did you pay your electic bill yet???:r

[McSmokey]

Affordable:
What I can get away with paying off without the wife knowing or screaming at me about it.
Affordable.:D

:tpd::ss

[Freelee711]

I'm on a college budget and affordable for me means about 2 or 3 bucks a stick.

[neoflex]

I'm with Grrogs and NCRadioMan on this one. I usually know what I want to buy but try and find them at the most affordable price possible. What that price is, is all dependent on what the box I want at the time. If it's not financially feasible for me at the time I will just wait on the purchase until it is unless something else comes up that I maybe interested in before than.

[Vigiles]

Well i haven't bought my first box of cigars yet, but the cheaper the better! I'm still trying too many things to decide on a box yet, although I'm leaning towards the Ashton Benchmade, I really like them and the price is very good.

As for singles, when I go to the B&M I'll usually pickup 2 or 3 sticks and smoke 1 or 2 of them there, and I'll spend anywhere from 15 to 20 dollars.

[acruce]

I just put back about 15 Bucks a week and buy a box every month or so of what I like

[WyoBob]

This year I hope I do better! I have my daughter's wedding to pay for, and who knows where this economy is going to take us!

My two daughter's were married 6 and 7 years ago. I still don't know what it cost me and that's the way I like it. I offered them both $5,000 to get married by a judge. That brought some laughs! They both said, "but this is the most important day of my life". I said, "nope, not even close. It's the day, the week, the year and the years after that are the most important". Guess what? They both agree with me now and wish they would have taken the money!

Oh, and on topic, for quite some time, I was able to keep my average cost around $2.00 by using CBID and e-mail deals. I'm around $2.50 to $2.75 each now and it's going up as I intend to go to a "higher plain". My old standby's just aren't doing it for me anymore and I've got to find some new favorties.

WyoBob

[RevSmoke]

affordable for me is that great deal on oliva v lanceros u beat me too ;)


:ss

Yeah, I know what you mean. That was a sweet deal. I felt like a pig in a mud pit on that one.

[RevSmoke]

I have to say that I have never thought about what is "Affordable". I always have a few boxes in mind and I search for the best deal. I don't start out saying I want a box of 25 for $135, now what can I get? I say I want a box of Party Shorts, who has the best price? I have boxes of cigars that are way more than I could normally afford, but I wanted them so I saved and bought them. I am in no way suggesting that money is not an issue, because money is always an issue, but I don't have a set price per stick that I look for. I guess anything is affordable if I want it bad enough. Does that make any sense?

Good point! I have done this. And probably will in the future. I know what I like and what I think is a good price, and I watch for them. Then, there are some cigars that I know will never fall into my "desirable" range, and so I simply watch for deals on them, hoping they'll come near to what I'd like to pay for them.

And yes, sometimes I just put money aside and wait for it to accumulate and splurge on something I shouldn't have bought - just because I wanted them.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

[Starscream]

Affordable:
What I can get away with paying off without the wife knowing or screaming at me about it.
Affordable.:D

:tpd:

Usually a box of 25 less than $100 is what I can get away with.

[Pauly Walnuts]

All my B&Ms around here are pretty expensive. I gotta start shopping online more. I dont like to spend more than $5 a stick, and I wont buy more than 2 or 3 at a time thats what I can afford occasionally.

[Chemyst]

When I started smoking I tried to live with cigars in the $2-$3 range.
But most smoked hot, tasted bitter or tasteless, and generated too much tar.
So, I raised my range to $3-$5 and the quality of my cigars went way up.
There are many more decent cigars in this range.

After a while, I found that since I only smoke 2 or 3 each week, I could afford
more costly smokes for 'special occasions'. So I limit myself to $10 for these.
I usually buy special occasion smokes at Father's Day, before vacation, and
at Xmas/New Year. I refuse to spend more than $10-$12 for a few
tobacco leaves.

Most of the cigars I buy by the box are between $75- $100 for 20, or 25.

My goal is always to spend $3-$5 per smoke, and by using cbid, and watching
for specials from the Monster, and other websites I've got some outstanding
deals. Most recently I got a box of Oliva V lanceros(36) for $100 from the
Monster. That's only $2.79 per stick. Perrrfect!

Over the past year alot of BOTLs had to sell some of their smokes to make ends
meet, and xlnt deals were everywhere. I was able to get San Cristobals for
$6-$7, instead of $9-$10, and ended up with 2 boxes of them. They're one of
my favorite smokes. I also recently got some PANS for $8 ea., delivered. But,
my budget broke, and my New Year's resolution is to stop buying cigars for 6 mos.
Luckily, I smoke less in the winter and my humis are full, so it's a win-win for me.

Overall, affordable means $3-5 to me. CAO Brazilia, RP Edge Missiles, RyJ Reserve
maduro, Torano Casa Torano maduro, RP Liga 'C' X-outs, and Perdomo ESV'91
are my favorite affordable cigars. Look for deals!

Chemyst :cool2:

[s15driftking]

Affordable to me is under 120.00 per box

[RevSmoke]

I like the different perspectives here. One man's affordable is another man's dream... :D

[mithrilG60]

I like the different perspectives here. One man's affordable is another man's dream... :D

And it's largely dictated by where you live. For example:


Overall, affordable means $3-5 to me. CAO Brazilia, RP Edge Missiles, RyJ Reserve maduro, Torano Casa Torano maduro, RP Liga 'C' X-outs, and Perdomo ESV'91 are my favorite affordable cigars. Look for deals!


While not all of these cigars are available in my local B&M, those that are all $15 - $20/stick and it's pretty much impossible to find anything under $10 (smokable or otherwise). This is entirely due to the tobacco taxes imposed by my provincial and federal governments.

As other's have mentioned, while I tend not to worry about the prices too much, I do expect that every time I walk into my B&M I'll come out roughly $100 poorer with 4 or 5 cigars to show for it. $15 - $25 is my average per stick price but I wouldn't call that "affordable", more just the cost of enjoying cigars North of 49.

[RevSmoke]

And it's largely dictated by where you live. For example:

While not all of these cigars are available in my local B&M, those that are all $15 - $20/stick and it's pretty much impossible to find anything under $10 (smokable or otherwise). This is entirely due to the tobacco taxes imposed by my provincial and federal governments.

As other's have mentioned, while I tend not to worry about the prices too much, I do expect that every time I walk into my B&M I'll come out roughly $100 poorer with 4 or 5 cigars to show for it. $15 - $25 is my average per stick price but I wouldn't call that "affordable", more just the cost of enjoying cigars North of 49.

Ouch!!! I remember attending classes in St. Catherine's, Ontario and stopping at a B&M to pick up a smoke. I remember the high hopes walking in, that forbidden fruit would soon crumble to ash between my lips. I walked in, greeted the owner, walked in the humidor and stood there looking at prices. Never did even touch a cigar. I wasn't prepared for the prices and so I didn't have the money available that week to even buy one.

Thankfully, I had brought a few with me in my traveldor which lasted the week. But yeah, I know the prices - that stinks.

What is the rate of taxation if cigars come to your from down south? If a person (say, myself) sends you a package, how difficult is it to get to you - are you taxed for it?

Peace of the Lord be with you.

[jjmitchem]

Since I only smoke about one a week on the average, I look at the $8-$10 range at a per cigar price. I am still learning my pallet and not ready to invest in a box yet - also have not invested in a full humidor yet either, using a 10 count and a 5 count traveldor for now.

I am looking at the next six months or so to figure out what I like and find the most affordable in what I like - so far I really enjoy RP, Padron and Gurkha but would like to find a good low budget cigar in the $2 - $4 range as well.

I deploy to Afghanistan by the end of summer and hope to invest in enough to bring and share with the troops - as a Chaplain I see this as a great way to get to know the guys and have them feel good about trusting in me.

Jim

[shilala]

I don't really have a cigar budget, pricewise.
It kinda works like "I find a box I want, then try really hard not to buy it."
Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I buy three.
I sort of use the "disposable income" routine. I try to save up $1,000, then I start trying to find the super best deals on the boxes I really like. I shop the WTS here heavily and always get the best deals on the stuff I really like.
Then I go pay through the nose for my Litto stuff.
The last time I managed to save up $1,000 for cigars, I bought tires instead.
Price per stick never mattered to me, but that's because I don't get to smoke all that often. When I do get to smoke, like this week while I'm on vacation, it'll be an all-star lineup because I'll dig through all my stuff and load up all my favorite stuff.
I like Sancho Panza Double Maduros as much as I like an Anejo as much as I like a Don Carlos Anniversario and so on.
I think the only thing that keeps things "affordable" is that I run out of money.
I do make a concious effort to smoke lots of JLP's and Sancho Panzas in the summer because I love them. Lots of 50 cent machine made cc's, too.
I do that because I hate to spark an expensive cigar and end up not being able to smoke it. It makes me feel like I'm taking food out of the kid's mouths for nothing, even though they're taken care of. Or I could have given it to someone who would really have enjoyed it and gave it it's due.
I honestly spend more time gathering cigars that everyone else likes than what I like.
It makes me a lot happier, and I already have more "me stuff" than I could ever imagine.
I am going to buy a bundle of El Original Toro maduros when I'm in Key Largo tomorrow. I don't know how much they cost. It doesn't matter. When I get home, I'm gonna give half of them to Sofaman and put the other half in my humi. What's left of the other half, actually. :D

So I guess, in summary, $350 for a box of #49's is just the same as $45 for a box of Sancho Panza Extra Fuerte Barcelonas to me.
My gag reflex happens at Cohiba maduros. I still haven't managed to pull the trigger there. I love them, but the $$$ they cost just would make me feel stupid and sick if I bought them. They are so incredible though. Someday... :)

[PeteSB75]

My Fiancee and I set aside part of each week's money for personal use, so most of my part of that goes to buying cigars, which she sometime steals :rolleyes: I generally buy boxes in the $4-5 a stick area, but occasionally save up longer and splurge on a nicer box, in the $8-10 range. Only a few times have I spent more, before she was around... I think I've managed to convince her that we should get a very nice box for smoking one every anniversary, but I can't quite sell her on the Cohiba Sig VI Gran Reserva :r

[rizzle]

Affordable by the box, to me, is what a box of something that I want costs. Meaning, if I really like that cigar enough to want a whole box of it I'll splurge if necessary. Now that keeps me from buying a lot of boxes that I would really like to have because my money tree ain't growing real fast. But generally when I buy a box it lasts me a couple of years anyway.

That being said, I usually try to wait until I can get 15-25% off before making that higher dollar, to me, purchase. It does help take the sting off a little.


I don't know if that is what you were looking for or not, Rev, but it works for me. I think.

[ucla695]

I’m comfortable buying in the $8-12ish range, but prefer to keep it below $8. I have to nudge myself a little more when going north of that. :)

[mithrilG60]

What is the rate of taxation if cigars come to your from down south? If a person (say, myself) sends you a package, how difficult is it to get to you - are you taxed for it?

If the package contents were properly declared and tax & duty was charged, my guess would be expensive but I've never had to deal with that issue so I can't give you a particularly detailed answer to that question. I do know from comparing local B&M prices on Cuban's to those from retailers that exist in the tax exempt world of native reservations, that my provincial and federal taxes add about $10 - $12 per stick on average cigars (P D4, RyJ Short Churchill, Sancho Panza Beli's, etc) and quite significantly more on specialty, LE or rare releases. There are a couple boxes of the Cohiba Gran Reserva my local B&M right now for $2310/box as an example. Most discussions here have pegged the standard price at around $1500 USD/box for that release.


I know that, like alcohol, shipping tobacco products between provinces is illegal so I assume it would the same with international shipments. That said, I have ordered from a couple "Canadian friendly" online shops from the US in the past and never had a problem. The packages have also never been opened and inspected (to my knowledge) so I don't know if they'd send it back to sender or not. However I doubt that customs would really bother trying to assess and charge taxes on a small package with a quantity that's obviously a personal gift unless you got an agent that was having a really bad caseof the Monday's. Now if you were receiving a larger package that looked more like a commercial purchase or an obvious attempt to avoid local taxes it would probably be different.

(note that I am talking in CDN dollars for most prices, but the CAD and USD have been basically on par for the last couple years anyways)

[RevSmoke]

I don't know if that is what you were looking for or not, Rev, but it works for me. I think.

Don't know if that's what I was looking for or not either.

I was just letting my mind wander after seeing a couple other discussions and wanted to start a thread to explore it a bit.

I guess it was more curiosity in "What do you do?" type of vein.

So, what works for you is a good thing.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

[rizzle]

And also with you.

[druturn]

By the single, it pains be to buy a cigar over $8-9. I haven't purchased a box yet but I have bought several 20 cigar samplers from JR and CI and kept the price to about $2.50-3 a stick for some premium sticks! That to me is "affordable" for the box(or large supply of mixed cigars) I suppose. I only smoke once a week so you would imagine my budget would be sky high, but yea, mark how I am the true definition of a poor college student!

[maverickdrinker]

Never really thought of buying cigars on a single price basis. I'll have to check my spreadsheets to see what the actual per cigar prices are.

[RevSmoke]

I don't really have a cigar budget, pricewise.
It kinda works like "I find a box I want, then try really hard not to buy it."
Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I buy three.

Thad had me laughing. Thanks, Scott.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

[Whynot]

Never really thought of buying cigars on a single price basis. I'll have to check my spreadsheets to see what the actual per cigar prices are.

You keep track?!?! I would find that depressing and I would be scared my wife would find it.:r

[RevSmoke]

Never really thought of buying cigars on a single price basis. I'll have to check my spreadsheets to see what the actual per cigar prices are.

It isn't so much the buying of them at that price. It is more of a way to break it down. A box of 15 for $100 breaks down to a different "per-stick-price" than 20 for $100 or even 24, 25, or 26 for $100. And of course, a 5er for $100 is much different.

It is simply a way to examine where we'd draw the line - price wise - in our cigar purchases.

As we've already seen, some say, when I find something I want, I buy it. Others save up to buy what they want. In both those cases, price per box or cigar doesn't matter.

There are some who won't spend over $X.00 a cigar.

There are others who have a normal price range, but will throw in the occasional expensive stick.

A few of us have a price range we like to keep our purchases in, and then watch the specials for cigars we'd like to get, but are normally out of our range.

It is just an excercise in comparisons and learning more about each other.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

[Vigiles]

It isn't so much the buying of them at that price. It is more of a way to break it down. A box of 15 for $100 breaks down to a different "per-stick-price" than 20 for $100 or even 24, 25, or 26 for $100. And of course, a 5er for $100 is much different.

It is simply a way to examine where we'd draw the line - price wise - in our cigar purchases.

As we've already seen, some say, when I find something I want, I buy it. Others save up to buy what they want. In both those cases, price per box or cigar doesn't matter.

There are some who won't spend over $X.00 a cigar.

There are others who have a normal price range, but will throw in the occasional expensive stick.

A few of us have a price range we like to keep our purchases in, and then watch the specials for cigars we'd like to get, but are normally out of our range.

It is just an excercise in comparisons and learning more about each other.

Peace of the Lord be with you.


Some really cool stuff in here, thanks for starting this thread Rev!

Although we can't really do this, I would be interested to see how people's cigar buying habitats correlates to their age, marital status, etc

[RevSmoke]

Some really cool stuff in here, thanks for starting this thread Rev!

Although we can't really do this, I would be interested to see how people's cigar buying habitats correlates to their age, marital status, etc

There's a whole new twist.

I'd like to see how those topics fits with smoking habits.

I know some people who have over-extended their credit (beyond what they should) on cigars. Of couse, I know people that do that for numerous things - not just cigars.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

[E.J.]

Affordable by the box…. I don’t know if I am ready to spend over $300 for a box of 25. I probably would if I found something that just knocked my socks off….and would justify it by saying that it is better than buying singles at my B&M for +$5 every time I wanted one. I go in, walk out with 6-7 sticks for $100+ and KNOW that I would be better off buying a box online and that is frustrating….

That is exactly what prompted my first box purchase….. Though don’t make that sound like I am buying a bunch of $250 boxes…. I have been smoking cigars for 4ish months and have only purchased 2 boxes. 1 Alec Bradley Tempus Terra Nova($130), 1 Padilla Miami Robusto($105-Cbid). Currently eyeing another more expensive box…..but have not pulled the trigger.

The above statements are not to say that I don’t appreciate my B&M, I do….they have a great selection and they are top notch folk.

[BC-Axeman]

Some really cool stuff in here, thanks for starting this thread Rev!

Although we can't really do this, I would be interested to see how people's cigar buying habitats correlates to their age, marital status, etc
So would a lot of marketing people. ;)

[Vigiles]

So would a lot of marketing people. ;)


lol, good point.