WTF is happening to our kids?????

[icantbejon]

So this is another one of "those" posts. I was just reading a story about a kid that strangled his own brother just to see what it was like. He was a big fan of some TV show about a serial killer, so he just went ahead and did it. He feels no remorse whatsoever.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/2009120/ap_on_re_us/us_indiana_boy_strangled

This follows right behind the girl that randomly killed their neighbor's child.

That one came shortly after the kids lit their "friend" on fire down in FL.

These cases are all kids 16 yrs old and under. I feel like it's the only thing I read in the news nowadays and it seriously depresses me. I can't help wonder what type of world I've brought one child into and bringing another shortly. It scares me to death that something like this could happen to, or because of, my kids. I never really was a proponent of the "media" argument, but I feel there has to be something to it by now. Our children see violence all day in every facet of their lives. Our video games were Mario and Sonic running around. Now it's every degree of violence you can think of.

When we had kids that wanted to "know" what death was all about they killed dogs and cats. I didn't even understand that as a child. Today's kids kill people for chits and giggles.

Sometimes I don't even know what to think anymore. I want to lock my kids up and protect them from everything.

[Volt]

I teach in both middle and high schools. You are only touching the tip of the iceberg.

[JaKaacH]

I wonder how many of these kids have been or are still using Ritalin.

[icantbejon]

I'm just at a loss. Whenever I read these stories I immediately think about how that would affect my life if it involved my kids in any way.

[RevSmoke]

It starts with this question - where does life come from?

Is life a sacred gift? Or a chance process?

I taught for 4 years before going to the seminary. I deal with kids on a regular basis. And it is amazing how those two questions really do get to the heart of the matter.

[ActionAndy]

"This kid, Conner, was a good kid, and Andrew was an A and B student," he said. "This comes as a shock to the community."

I'll never understand these reaction blurbs. A and B student? Ok and? Why is it that no one ever steps up and says y'know what, that kid was a total creep. People always have to pretend to be shocked. People that strangle their family members to death don't exactly make that decision over night.

[icantbejon]

I wouldn't think so...but it happens so frequently that there has to be something missing. I feel like I would know if my child had homicidal aspirations, but clearly that can't always be the case.

[Subvet642]

I have to wonder what their home life was like. Were their parents involved in their lives? Did they actively discipline them, or throw their hands up in the belief that you can't do that anymore? Some parents that I've seen seem to think that you can put kids on auto-pilot, 'cause they either don't have the time, or they can't be bothered. Why do some parents want to be their kids "friends", when they really need to be adults and in charge? In the absence of real life adult guidance, media influences have a more profound effect. That's my :2

[68TriShield]

I have to wonder what their home life was like. Were their parents involved in their lives? Did they actively discipline them, or throw their hands up in the belief that you can't do that anymore? Some parents that I've seen seem to think that you can put kids on auto-pilot, 'cause they either don't have the time, or they can't be bothered. Why do some parents want to be their kids "friends", when they really need to be adults and in charge? In the absence of real life adult guidance, media influences have a more profound effect. That's my :2

This is it in a nutshell Darren. It's all in how we as parents raise them,or not as is often the case.

[Subvet642]

This is it in a nutshell Darren. It's all in how we as parents raise them,or not as is often the case.

I certainly don't mean to disparage all parents; most parents and their kids are really quite good, it's only the bad ones that we ever hear about. Maybe, in today's world of instant communication, we just hear about these things more often.

[replicant_argent]

I wouldn't discount the combination of lack of parenting + TV far too mature for him as an audience + extremely violent video games + a kid that might be a little "off" = a bad prescription for a developing human being.
How old was the kid? 17? I bet anyone five bucks this kid has been watching graphic horror movies, watching R rated content on TV, (can you say MMA?) and been playing FPS video games for a few years. I won't delve into what personal and/or mental health issues he or his parents might have.

[ActionAndy]

Regarding the parents, the kid has a lot of indications that he's a psyco/sociopath. Some people literally are born without guilt or conscience. Read the article and look at his quote about the hamburger. He saw killing his brother as an impulse, urge, to whim--and had nothing within him telling him not to puruse it.

[ActionAndy]

I wouldn't discount the combination of lack of parenting + TV far too mature for him as an audience + extremely violent video games + a kid that might be a little "off" = a bad prescription for a developing human being.
How old was the kid? 17? I bet anyone five bucks this kid has been watching graphic horror movies, watching R rated content on TV, (can you say MMA?) and been playing FPS video games for a few years. I won't delve into what personal and/or mental health issues he or his parents might have.

I've never seen a man strangled to death and dumped in a park on any of my UFC pay per views. Have I been getting censored broadcasts?

[replicant_argent]

Regarding the parents, the kid has a lot of indications that he's a psyco/sociopath. Some people literally are born without guilt or conscience. Read the article and look at his quote about the hamburger. He saw killing his brother as an impulse, urge, to whim--and had nothing within him telling him not to puruse it.

That may also be learned/rationalizing behavior from the fine example of TV... how coincidental. That may have been the answer he thought was the proper response. The idea overrides the lack of morals and ethics that were never instilled by his family/parents/church/etc. I wonder, if coupled with some rage issues the kid may have made a "perfect storm" of opportunity. Not seperating TV from reality.

[replicant_argent]

I've never seen a man strangled to death and dumped in a park on any of my UFC pay per views. Have I been getting censored broadcasts?

Nope, but you have seen the "acceptable" broadcast of a couple guys trying to beat the crap out of each other, including the occasional choke hold, haven't you?

Part of the recipe.

[icantbejon]

I certainly don't mean to disparage all parents; most parents and their kids are really quite good, it's only the bad ones that we ever hear about. Maybe, in today's world of instant communication, we just hear about these things more often.

I've thought about that as well. I wonder if we just didn't hear about this crazy crap happening years back.

Regarding the parents, the kid has a lot of indications that he's a psyco/sociopath. Some people literally are born without guilt or conscience. Read the article and look at his quote about the hamburger. He saw killing his brother as an impulse, urge, to whim--and had nothing within him telling him not to puruse it.

Wouldn't you think the bond of family would be enough to control that urge? At least in this case? Why wouldn't this crazy *uck not go out and find a random person to kill?

I wonder, if coupled with some rage issues the kid may have made a "perfect storm" of opportunity. Not seperating TV from reality.

This is exactly what I was thinking when reading this story. This kid, with whatever tendancies he already had, along with some twisted societal values, worked together to create this tragedy. He is the psycho rendition of a perfect storm.

[jledou]

I would assume that the show is on TV would be "criminal minds" a well written and disturbing show that my wife and I watch regularly. I can see where it or others that are similar could lead to something if there is not the correct right/wrong thought process morally programmed into the kid from the beginning.
I would put my money on the parenting though rather than the TV/video games. Spend the time up front to install a proper sense of what is right and what's wrong and they will be able to distinguish between reality and TV/video games.

[SilverFox]

Psychopathy is a personality disorder whose hallmark is a lack of empathy. Robert Hare, a researcher in the field describes psychopaths as "intraspecies predators who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, sex and violence to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking in conscience and empathy, they take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without guilt or remorse.



While I agree with some of the above points made by other posters the answer in my mind falls on the definition above.

I have to say that while proper parenting and guidelines can help in a normal to borderline scenario that isn`t always the case. This person (loosely used term) did not gain their lack of remorse or inability to conform to societal norms from TV shows or video games. In my opinion it is an easy scape goat to point fingers at various media and forms of entertainment.

But think of some things.

When I was younger I played cowboys and indians with toy guns and toy knives and toy tomahawks. I scalped many a friend in those days. Now I won`t contend to the political correctness of this behaviour but I did not grow up wanting to kill anyone just to see what it felt like.

We played cops and robbers where we tied up (with real rope) the banker and held him hostage...........yet it didn`t lead me to a life of crime.

I started reading things like Helter Skelter (the Manson Murders) and Jack the Ripper when I was 10 to 12 years old............guess what I have never hacked up a body just to watch it bleed.

Ahhh then it must be that good parenting that I had...............well lets just suffice it to say that is definitely not the case.

So maybe TV wasn`t as violent (not sure about that) and my video game was pong but that didn`t mean there weren`t many different sources of extreme violence to be found or made up.

People are just phucked up.............is it more than when we where younger..... I don`t think so but we have Internet, cell phone camera`s wireless access, 8000 channels, satellite radio, nothing happens that we don`t hear about. The days of your sister getting pregnant and spending the summer at a distant aunts and coming back cured don`t exist.

Don`t get me wrong I don`t feel sorry for this kid (the murderer) in fact we could get into a long discussion on my opinions surrounding the justice (or lack thereof) system.

Sorry if I have offended anyone but lets not lose sight of things............this is just a rabid dog.

[replicant_argent]

good thoughts, Shawn.
Now, explain "Sexting" to me.

[SilverFox]

good thoughts, Shawn.
Now, explain "Sexting" to me.


Hell thats simple...........thats just weird;s

[replicant_argent]

I do believe that unfortunately, in the diversity of life, that there are creatures, such as men and dogs, that are simply Wired Wrong from the Factory.

[akumushi]

Studies have shown that psychopath/sociopaths have different brain chemistries, not just poor upbringing. I think this kid has some pretty clear signs of being a sociopath. That's not to say that he wasn't exposed to too much violent media and neglected by his parents, but that sort of thing doesn't happen without some deep rooted disfunction. I do find it ironic that he found a "hero" with his own sick mentality on a television show (Dexter), but keep in mind that that show is on a premium channel (Showtime), and is geared toward adults. It's like the 10 year olds that recently beat up a red head because they watched Southpark. Who are the idiot parents letting their children watch this cr@p?

[Subvet642]

I would assume that the show is on TV would be "criminal minds" a well written and disturbing show that my wife and I watch regularly. I can see where it or others that are similar could lead to something if there is not the correct right/wrong thought process morally programmed into the kid from the beginning.
I would put my money on the parenting though rather than the TV/video games. Spend the time up front to install a proper sense of what is right and what's wrong and they will be able to distinguish between reality and TV/video games.

I saw that movie Hanibal a few years back, and it had me freaked out for weeks. Whoever wrote that thing has some serious issues. I won't watch modern horror flicks anymore. :confused:

[icantbejon]

Psychopathy is a personality disorder whose hallmark is a lack of empathy. Robert Hare, a researcher in the field describes psychopaths as "intraspecies predators who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, sex and violence to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking in conscience and empathy, they take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without guilt or remorse.



While I agree with some of the above points made by other posters the answer in my mind falls on the definition above.

I have to say that while proper parenting and guidelines can help in a normal to borderline scenario that isn`t always the case. This person (loosely used term) did not gain their lack of remorse or inability to conform to societal norms from TV shows or video games. In my opinion it is an easy scape goat to point fingers at various media and forms of entertainment.

But think of some things.

When I was younger I played cowboys and indians with toy guns and toy knives and toy tomahawks. I scalped many a friend in those days. Now I won`t contend to the political correctness of this behaviour but I did not grow up wanting to kill anyone just to see what it felt like.

We played cops and robbers where we tied up (with real rope) the banker and held him hostage...........yet it didn`t lead me to a life of crime.

I started reading things like Helter Skelter (the Manson Murders) and Jack the Ripper when I was 10 to 12 years old............guess what I have never hacked up a body just to watch it bleed.

Ahhh then it must be that good parenting that I had...............well lets just suffice it to say that is definitely not the case.

So maybe TV wasn`t as violent (not sure about that) and my video game was pong but that didn`t mean there weren`t many different sources of extreme violence to be found or made up.

People are just phucked up.............is it more than when we where younger..... I don`t think so but we have Internet, cell phone camera`s wireless access, 8000 channels, satellite radio, nothing happens that we don`t hear about. The days of your sister getting pregnant and spending the summer at a distant aunts and coming back cured don`t exist.

Don`t get me wrong I don`t feel sorry for this kid (the murderer) in fact we could get into a long discussion on my opinions surrounding the justice (or lack thereof) system.

Sorry if I have offended anyone but lets not lose sight of things............this is just a rabid dog.

I generally agree with everything you've stated. I hate blaming TV, music, and video games for peoples' behavior. I prefer, more often than not, to call a crazy a crazy. However, I don't think we can completely dismiss some of these potentially contributing factors.

[Subvet642]

Psychopathy is a personality disorder whose hallmark is a lack of empathy. Robert Hare, a researcher in the field describes psychopaths as "intraspecies predators who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, sex and violence to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking in conscience and empathy, they take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without guilt or remorse.


My wife and I refer to that as Reptilian.

[akumushi]

My wife and I refer to that as Reptilian.

There's an interesting book on psychopaths in the white collar world called Snakes in Suits.

[Isom-niac2]

I believe it can be both TV and video games. A few years ago, they found the body of a woman with her head, hands, and feet cut off. The suspects turned out to be her two young sons, who saw the dismemberment in a video game they had been playing.

I think a kid with some type of psychopathic characteristics, could be influenced by TV and/or video games to what extent no one knows until they lash out against society and use it as their defense.

[replicant_argent]

Feral Youth. Can't get the phrase out of my head.

[coastietech]

I certainly don't mean to disparage all parents; most parents and their kids are really quite good, it's only the bad ones that we ever hear about. Maybe, in today's world of instant communication, we just hear about these things more often.

I've bolded reason why it seems like it is worse now.

We as a society are not any better or worse than we have ever been as a society.

The fact that it seems like we are is because of the access to the amount of information we have at our fingertips.

The "society is worse now than it was when I was growing up" thinking is a fallacy and has been disproven over and over.

;s

[kydsid]

I've bolded reason why it seems like it is worse now.

We as a society are not any better or worse than we have ever been as a society.

The fact that it seems like we are is because of the access to the amount of information we have at our fingertips.

The "society is worse now than it was when I was growing up" thinking is a fallacy and has been disproven over and over.

;s

:tpd: My mother was a teacher for 35+ years. Till the day she retired she always said the same thing: "The kids are the same the parents just got dumber".

And the stories she had about evil little children from the 40's on varied very little. But trust me when little Johny Rotten skined and flayed a felow 14 year old in 1950's Tucson no one but the people of Tucson knew about it.

[Sauer Grapes]

I have to agree very strongly that parents need to more closely monitor and control the types of entertainment their kids have access to and at what age. This violent behavior, sexting, and other similar behavior that shocks us at how young some of the kids doing are have to be in part caused by kids being exposed to certain types if violence, sex, and other situations at ages too young for them to truly deal with them on a rational basis.

It seems to be a classic situation of crap entering their minds coming back out in their actions because they haven't developed the ability to filter the information yet.

[Starscream]

I teach in both middle and high schools. You are only touching the tip of the iceberg.

I didn't know that you were a teacher. I teach 9th grade English and see some kids who are very sadistic. I would say that the world is getting worse, but despite all the bad publicity, we are the most educated society in the world today.

[loki]

good thoughts, Shawn.
Now, explain "Sexting" to me.

give me your phone number, I'll show ya what it's about http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/dancingnaughty.gif


on an unrelated note to my above post, my wife wonders why I want to carry a gun

[Cigary]

I wouldn't discount the combination of lack of parenting + TV far too mature for him as an audience + extremely violent video games + a kid that might be a little "off" = a bad prescription for a developing human being.
How old was the kid? 17? I bet anyone five bucks this kid has been watching graphic horror movies, watching R rated content on TV, (can you say MMA?) and been playing FPS video games for a few years. I won't delve into what personal and/or mental health issues he or his parents might have.

Ditto this and as has been said,,,just a tip of the iceberg when it comes to how they were raised and by whom. I am glad I won't be around to see the next generation deal with all of the issues that they will own because of all of the "crap" that is going on now. It starts with the family and if it fails there then there is no hope. Anyone who has studied the fall of the Roman Empire can see the similarities. While RArgent and I don't agree on a lot of things I back up what he says here 200% and commend him standing up and saying this.

[SilverFox]

Perhaps there are two arguments here.

For I agree on the one side that we are doomed in a lot of ways as parents fail to bring up their children with the respect and dignity and work ethic that our parents instilled in us. There are every day instances where I am aghast at how people interact with each other and at the expectations of todays youth and the whats in it for me attitude.

But....... and here is where I maybe step off.

TV or Video games did not create this kid. A phsycopath or a criminal sociopath is not created by inappropriate media. That is like saying sexual preference is determined by external sources or that you can cause the sex of an unborn child by playing the appropriate gender related music while in the act of procreation. This is a mis-wired individual and they are as prevalent in our society as they are in third world countries where media influences are not as prevalent.

I am all about careful censoring of products that kids are exposed too and I take a great interest in the games my children play and the movies they watch and try my damnedest to balance that with appropriate diet, physical activity and parental guidance. But guess what, in the end, I as a parent will not control who they are or what they will become if there is a predisposition to sociopathic or psychopathic tendencies.

[coastietech]

I didn't know that you were a teacher. I teach 9th grade English and see some kids who are very sadistic. I would say that the world is getting worse, but despite all the bad publicity, we are the most educated society in the world today.

No offense but this statement is not a true one. We are not the most educated society by far and America actually ranks fairly low in the world when it comes to intelligence and schooling.

[DougBushBC]

No offense but this statement is not a true one. We are not the most educated society by far and America actually ranks fairly low in the world when it comes to intelligence and schooling.

Joe, the truth of the matter is that we are ranked low in "SCHOOLING" but I doubt you would find any data to prove "INTELLIGENCE" was low in the US of A. We have a society that includes all peoples and our melting pot might not hit high on the metrics that the Europeans use to determine schooling rankings, but the US is in the forefront of virtually all scientific research and that is not due to our schooling but our country values intelligence unlike many others.

I am not trying to say that "RAH RAH USA" we are the best at these matters, but we get a bad name because the people giving the rankings choose how to rank...

[Skywalker]

One of Shawn's points needs to be explored a little more...
Yes. Many of us, as children, played violent role playing (dramatic play) with our friends and siblings, such as cowboys and Indians, or war play. This gave us opportunities to hurt others and be hurt with limitations. That’s what play is for... it allows grown up behavior in a safe environment. I don't see children playing like this anymore. Parents are afraid to let their children play in the neighborhood, so the children play video games and watch TV and movies. They have very little positive social interaction.

When you were playing with your friends and things began to get a little rough, you let them know it and they let up. I obtained plenty of bumps and bruises from my best friends and they received a few in turn. That's how we learned restraint. You don't learn restraint from TV or video games, on the contrary; you learn to destroy without restraint!:2

[coastietech]

Joe, the truth of the matter is that we are ranked low in "SCHOOLING" but I doubt you would find any data to prove "INTELLIGENCE" was low in the US of A. We have a society that includes all peoples and our melting pot might not hit high on the metrics that the Europeans use to determine schooling rankings, but the US is in the forefront of virtually all scientific research and that is not due to our schooling but our country values intelligence unlike many others.

I am not trying to say that "RAH RAH USA" we are the best at these matters, but we get a bad name because the people giving the rankings choose how to rank...

I wasn't trying to be anti-American I was simply stating a fact. Typically the data most people go by on this subject is UNICEF. They really don't have any reason to be biased.

We basically agree though. America ranks very low when it comes to schooling. I will agree that America leads the world in almost all areas in the medical field, and quite a few other fields. That has more to do with our capitalistic society and the fact that there is more money to be made here than anywhere else with said innovations.

[DougBushBC]

I wasn't trying to be anti-American I was simply stating a fact. Typically the data most people go by on this subject is UNICEF. They really don't have any reason to be biased.

I call BULLSHIT on their lack of bias.

[Rabidsquirrel]

http://s3-llnw-screenshots.wegame.com/10-5728473628952639/5728473628952639_l.jpg

If the kid can't make the determination of what is ok in a video game and what is ok in real life, there are other issues involved, the game not being one of them.

[coastietech]

I call BULLSHIT on their lack of bias.

Care to provide some form of evidence of this?

UNICEF really has nothing to gain by saying that one country has better schooling than another, especially when they put the US rankings so low and we provide the most volunteers and money to the program.

[Starscream]

No offense but this statement is not a true one. We are not the most educated society by far and America actually ranks fairly low in the world when it comes to intelligence and schooling.

I meant the world as a whole, not America. I misworded my previous post. The world is more educated than it ever has been at this moment.

[coastietech]

I meant the world as a whole, not America. I misworded my previous post. The world is more educated than it ever has been at this moment.

I definitely agree with that statement. :tu

[Subvet642]

I wasn't trying to be anti-American I was simply stating a fact. Typically the data most people go by on this subject is UNICEF. They really don't have any reason to be biased.

We basically agree though. America ranks very low when it comes to schooling. I will agree that America leads the world in almost all areas in the medical field, and quite a few other fields. That has more to do with our capitalistic society and the fact that there is more money to be made here than anywhere else with said innovations.

I work at a "Harvard Teaching Hospital" research facility and we have researchers from all over the world, and I've met some STOOPID people with advanced degrees. You would not believe the things that people think are true. Do you think that Americans have cornered the market on conspiracy theories and other nonsense, not by a long shot! Many of these people, while very good at their jobs, can't find their buts with both hands and a GPS unit. Of course, YMMV. :2

[Starscream]

I work at a "Harvard Teaching Hospital" research facility and we have researchers from all over the world, and I've met some STOOPID people with advanced degrees. You would not believe the things that people think are true. Do you think that Americans have cornered the market on conspiracy theories and other nonsense, not by a long shot! Many of these people, while very good at their jobs, can't find their buts with both hands and a GPS unit. Of course, YMMV. :2

People who have advanced degrees are typically knowledgable in one specialized subject. I hope to one day hold a doctorate in English. If I do get my PhD in English, it will never make me a math whiz. I also know many, many teachers and educators who know nothing of the world, but they know an awful lot about how to educate children. Holding an advanced degree does not make you knowledgable about all things in the world.

[Coach Deg]

I teach in a middle/high school and believe me I have met some administrators, teachers, and parents that I am amazed at how stupid they are. But the one thing that I will say. 90% of the time the apple does not fall far from the tree!!! The other 10% is determined by a higher( god, drugs, abuse outside family, or peer pressure).
And about the US being so low in education, you can make numbers say anything you want. I would put the best 10% in the US against the best 10% from the rest of the world!

[bleedingshrimp]

I believe, in all quantifiable and measurable ways, that we live with a higher standing of living, enjoyment of life, and enlightenment on a whole, then we have at any other point in human existence.

The idea of "the good old days" or "when I was growing up", are complete hogwash based our tendency to indulge nostalgia.

The only things that have changed are technology, which alter our perception of the realities of the world around us. Like another poster mentioned, back in the day if a kid murdered another kid (and it happened just as often as today) that story would have never made it out of the community.

With the advent of internet, cable television, etc...this is the the type of things that sell advertising and are jumped all over and seized upon, and as consumers we eat it up. As much as we complain about how it's so much worse....we latch on and read every single story about these type of things, and watch every news segment.

The only thing that has changed since "the good old days", is we can now feed our "stopping to look at a car crash" mentality and never leave our couch or computer.

Society still has the same bad parenting...and the same kids with ingrained sociopathic tendencies.

[Subvet642]

...And about the US being so low in education, you can make numbers say anything you want. I would put the best 10% in the US against the best 10% from the rest of the world!

Mark Twain said: There are three kinds of liars; liars, damned liars, and statisticians.

People who have advanced degrees are typically knowledgable in one specialized subject... Holding an advanced degree does not make you knowledgable about all things in the world.

I liken them (my researchers) to thoroughbreds; you can't expect a racehorse to pull a plow.

[pmwz]

i blame cell phones + internet more than video games. there is a reason why a lot of schools in germany outlaw them. videos of executions, brutal beatings, hard ****...are shared on the school yard.
information on all kind of drugs are on the internet and a lot of the stuff is easy to produce/to get.
i dont know if the previous generations would look better if they had the same resources.
please dont make statements like the usa is the smartest/dumbest nation. it has nothing to do with the discussion, you cant proof it and those bolt statements are mos likely not true.

[tobii3]

My mother was a teacher for 35+ years. Till the day she retired she always said the same thing: "The kids are the same the parents just got dumber".

:tpd:

That should be framed in EVERY classroom.

[Starscream]

:tpd: My mother was a teacher for 35+ years. Till the day she retired she always said the same thing: "The kids are the same the parents just got dumber".

And the stories she had about evil little children from the 40's on varied very little. But trust me when little Johny Rotten skined and flayed a felow 14 year old in 1950's Tucson no one but the people of Tucson knew about it.

:tpd:

That should be framed in EVERY classroom.

:tpd::tpd:

[Starscream]

I believe, in all quantifiable and measurable ways, that we live with a higher standing of living, enjoyment of life, and enlightenment on a whole, then we have at any other point in human existence.

The idea of "the good old days" or "when I was growing up", are complete hogwash based our tendency to indulge nostalgia.

The only things that have changed are technology, which alter our perception of the realities of the world around us. Like another poster mentioned, back in the day if a kid murdered another kid (and it happened just as often as today) that story would have never made it out of the community.

With the advent of internet, cable television, etc...this is the the type of things that sell advertising and are jumped all over and seized upon, and as consumers we eat it up. As much as we complain about how it's so much worse....we latch on and read every single story about these type of things, and watch every news segment.

The only thing that has changed since "the good old days", is we can now feed our "stopping to look at a car crash" mentality and never leave our couch or computer.

Society still has the same bad parenting...and the same kids with ingrained sociopathic tendencies.

The good old days were good morally, but the good old days didn't exist educationally speaking.

[TFULLERY]

I have read the entire tread there are some really good and valid points. However I believe the issues may have become confused. The first issue I would agree with the person that said "crazy is crazy" and evil is evil I have personally experienced this though out the world. The second issue (games,movies,media, and bad parenting) I believe has a it's impact also, although perhaps not related to the murder that started this tread. This person in my opinion is quit disturbed and will always be, call it what it is crazy/evil. I do have to say that in my view bad parenting along with outside influences has had its mark on society. Two years ago I was with a good friend his wife (He is in his mid sixties) at a REDs game in cinci we were leaving the game and had parked in a garage upon leaving the garage he and I almost came to blows with a man that was probably in his early to mid 20s. This was all over him not being able to get out before us when we clearly had the right a way. I clearly believe that this type of behavior and violate tendencies are a direct result of poor parenting along with the other influences. The Reds incident is just one of many that I have witnessed in recent years. In closing I would say when you spare the rod and take God out of society you get what you get just ask a Roman. The crazies will always be there (they keep me employed).

[Mikhail]

For the recored I don't have kids. I think that most kids need to play on the monkey bars and find out that if you mess up pain can and will occur.

[Latinbeauty]

Sexting is when you text dirty things to each other..popular among teenagers...

[coastietech]

I teach in a middle/high school and believe me I have met some administrators, teachers, and parents that I am amazed at how stupid they are. But the one thing that I will say. 90% of the time the apple does not fall far from the tree!!! The other 10% is determined by a higher( god, drugs, abuse outside family, or peer pressure).
And about the US being so low in education, you can make numbers say anything you want. I would put the best 10% in the US against the best 10% from the rest of the world!

The only reason the statement in bold would be valid is because the rest of the world's best and brightest come to America for the opportunities that aren't afforded them elsewhere. If you took the top 10% American educated and put them up against the top 10% of Korean or Indian educated we would be at a severe disadvantage. This is a quantifiable fact.

i blame cell phones + internet more than video games. there is a reason why a lot of schools in germany outlaw them. videos of executions, brutal beatings, hard ****...are shared on the school yard.
information on all kind of drugs are on the internet and a lot of the stuff is easy to produce/to get.
i dont know if the previous generations would look better if they had the same resources.
please dont make statements like the usa is the smartest/dumbest nation. it has nothing to do with the discussion, you cant proof it and those bolt statements are mos likely not true. This is very much an important part of this particular argument. An educated society tends to be more civilized and moral.

I have read the entire tread there are some really good and valid points. However I believe the issues may have become confused. The first issue I would agree with the person that said "crazy is crazy" and evil is evil I have personally experienced this though out the world. The second issue (games,movies,media, and bad parenting) I believe has a it's impact also, although perhaps not related to the murder that started this tread. This person in my opinion is quit disturbed and will always be, call it what it is crazy/evil. I do have to say that in my view bad parenting along with outside influences has had its mark on society. Two years ago I was with a good friend his wife (He is in his mid sixties) at a REDs game in cinci we were leaving the game and had parked in a garage upon leaving the garage he and I almost came to blows with a man that was probably in his early to mid 20s. This was all over him not being able to get out before us when we clearly had the right a way. I clearly believe that this type of behavior and violate tendencies are a direct result of poor parenting along with the other influences. The Reds incident is just one of many that I have witnessed in recent years. In closing I would say when you spare the rod and take God out of society you get what you get just ask a Roman. The crazies will always be there (they keep me employed).

No offense but that could have and has happened in the past. This has nothing to do with poor parenting and probably had to do with an excess of alcohol and testosterone from the game.

Parents haven't gotten dumber, if anything they have become more educated and therefor become better parents. For example how many of you drove in the car when you were kids without seat belts? Child abuse, molestation, and alcohol abuse were much more prevalent in the past then they are now. There are more parenting classes and books on parenting then ever before. Parents are educating themselves and finding better ways of raising children everyday. Are there bad apples? Sure, but there have always been bad apples and everything points to there being less now then there were in the past.

As has been pointed out more than once in this thread, the only reason things "seem" worse then they have ever been is because of the amount of information we have at our finger tips. You hear about every bad thing that happens around the world now, that wasn't the case 100, 50 or even 30 years ago.

[icantbejon]

Sexting is when you text dirty things to each other..popular among teenagers...

Bianca, I absolutely love that this was your first contribution to CA. That's just awesome. :tu

I would also say that this thread has clearly run it's course. Three distinct party lines have been drawn...the "Media plays a part" people, the "Things are the same as before...just more tech" people, and the "I'm sitting on the fence waiting for a winner" people.

Regardless of where you sit on that spectrum, it's a damn shame these things have to keep happening. I feel absolutely terrible for that family. If anyone happened to follow up on this story, the parents didn't go to this kid's court appearance...they were at the dead son's funeral. What a tragedy.

[Wanger]

I've got some fairly strong opinions about these things, from ancedotal evidence from a few different sources.

First, our educations system is whacked out, IMO. We got a sheet from school for our oldest on Friday. It was one that states that 6th grade will have an AIDS education coming up soon, and by signing the form, parents could keep their kids out of it. Honestly, I don't know why a parent would want to keep their child from getting facts about something like that. It's a horrible disease, for which we have no cure yet. Anyways, as my wife was dropping the kids off at school today, she heard our daughter and her friends talking about it, and our daughter asked if she would be allowed to not take it. During the conversation, one of the other kids said that her parents signed it because "gross men get it from doing things with animals and other men." WTF? I thought we were past that and understood that this disease affects ALL walks of life!!! So, needless to say, our daighter will be attending the educational portion of this class.

I have a couple friends who have also worked with childen in various aspects. One of them was a teacher (in Harlem and at a private school, as well). She saw thigns from both sides. She saw kids in the Harlem school that couldn't afford more than one meal a day, and their clothes were falling off them, they were in such poor condition. She had kids that would fall asleep in class because they had to watch their brothers and sisters while mom was at work at night. At the private school, when parents would contact her, they would blame her for little Johnny or Jenny failing. They wouldn't look at the fact that their children were not completing assignments and paying attention in class. It was her fault for not making them learn. Forget the fact that there was little to no parental involvement, other than writing the check or looking at grades occasionally. they were not taking the responsibility for assisting in the educaton of their children.

I have another friend who was a juvenile probation officer. She had told me stories of parents calling her to ask HER why their child was not in school on a particular day. Um...isn't it the parent's responsibility to make sure their kid goes to school, and not the probation officer who has MANY kids on her caseload?

Parents seem to be more interested in being their kids friends than their parents. They care more if their child likes them or not and that they don't restrict things too much. F that!!! I'm the parent, and I honestly don't care if they "like" me. As a parent, it is my job to provide all the tools necessary for them to grow up and be a prductive member of society. That means not allowing them to watch every movie they want (they can't watch a PG-13 movie until AFTER we have seen it and determine if it's appropriate or not). They can't play mature rated or overly violent video games. We are the boss and will direct them what to do and when to do it. We will not accept backtalk...PERIOD. We've heard the threats of them saying "I'm going to tell the school" or "I'm going to call the cops." Our response is..."go ahead, I'll dial for you." I'm old school when it comes to discipline. The parents are in charge, and not the kids. You can and will have priviledges (and toys) taken away from you if you misbehave. And they will get cell phones when they have a job and can afford to pay for them on their own.

As for the violence and the tendencies that have come out unlike before, I think that there are MANY factors. The ease at which information travels now, whether it be on the internet or the news, or via cellphones. Less involvement from parents in their kids lives. They seem to care more about themselves and ignore what's going on with their kids. And then you have the "fairness movement"...What I mean by that is this: Some schools don't give out letter grades until 4th grade (WTF?!?!), because they don't want to hurt their self esteem if they get a D or an F...um sorry, no...; In little league everyone gets to bat every inning and there are no outs, and they don't keep score...again BS to me. Keep the damn score, and teach them that there ARE actually winners and losers in life. The job market and business is competitive. you will not be handed something and told "That's OK that you lost us millions of dollars, maybe you'll do better next time." I believe the best way to learn to succeed is to actually have failures in your life. Let them learn that they have to work hard to get ahead and "win" in life. And then kids are taught that they have more "rights" than they should have. Discipline has been taken away from parents. If I screwed up as a kid, I got spanked, and look at how I turned out...wait...bad example. :p Seriously, though, timeouts do NOT always work. Sending them to their room where they have all kids of toys and all the electronic games we never had is NOT a punishment. As a comparison, I had Coleco football and baseball, and a Speak n Spell and a Speak n Math.

And we come to the end of my rant. The main points I want to get out is that there is less parental involvement in kids lives nowadays (whether from work or other issues), and society as a whole has become more about the happiness of the child than teaching them about life and hard work and what it takes to be successful.

[/rant]

[replicant_argent]

Jeez, Mike, I'm not gonna call you "Daddy" anymore if you tell everyone what a hardass you are. ;)

[tobii3]

Parents seem to be more interested in being their kids friends than their parents. They care more if their child likes them or not and that they don't restrict things too much. [/rant]

:tu

As a parent, it is my job to provide all the tools necessary for them to grow up and be a productive member of society.

Amen, Brudda.

now, something I read that made me laugh...

Parents haven't gotten dumber, if anything they have become more educated and therefor become better parents. For example how many of you drove in the car when you were kids without seat belts?

Parents have been GOING TO WORK and letting strangers raise their children.

Open your phonebook to DAYCARE...How many listings?? Gotcha.

Funny thing, when we were kids, they had something called a "Room Mother"....yeah, llike you'll EVER see that these days.

[M1903A1]

Parents seem to be more interested in being their kids friends than their parents. They care more if their child likes them or not and that they don't restrict things too much.

I think many more parents really don't care one way or another about their kids, at least not enough to disrupt their own lives for it. For too many their idea of parenting is "here's some money--now go away and leave me alone".