Interesting read on misconceptions on Cuba

[poker]

Hopefully it wont turn political. Not the intent.
I didnt write it either, but did find it interesting.


http://www.iammyownreporter.com/misconceptions.htm

[VirtualSmitty]

Can't say much as i've never been, but based on what i've been told about Castro from some Cuban expatriates i'd have to to disagree with him not being one of the bad guys.

[Ashcan Bill]

Interesting article. Don't know about it's veracity, but an interesting read.

I know several Cuban exiles, all of whom left many years ago and none of whom have anything good to say about the current conditions.

Last month, I met a young Cuban who had left three years ago. I asked him what the Cuban health care system was like. I was surprised when he said it was great, especially compared to the U.S. He mentioned medications were hard to come by, but the level of care was very good and available to all. Not the answer I was expecting at all.

Sometimes I just don't know what to think.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

Interesting read, thanks for the link Kelly:tu

[csbrewfisher]

Kelly, I'll try to keep it non-political. I would distrust anything this guy writes. Did you see his web site? Some excerpts...


There is no "good" patriotism. Patriotism isn't good. It's pure stupid.

Communism is NOT an ideology or a political system. It is ONE of the procedures that the people of a civilized state need to employ in order to live together in a civilized way and to provide and maintain as good a life for every participant as is practically possible.

Capitalism or usury or whatever you call it is an effort to make a profit, to get more than one gives and, thus, clearly, to cheat.


The guy is certifiable.

[md4958]

Outside the U.S. bubble, Fidel is the most highly respected chief of state in the world. American presidents avoid contact with him because they know he will upstage them.

He's amazingly well versed and smarter and more articulate than any American president since Jefferson, which is why it would be a bad idea to replace him after 4 years or 40 years

Wow! I never knew all that!! :rolleyes: I wouldnt be suprised if this reporter was on the Cuban government payroll :rolleyes:

[the nub]

From my own experience, I can say that the 'truth' is never the truth in Cuba. What you think you know is only what you observe at any given moment or what someone tells you. Tomorrow may not produce the same results. Often times, what Cubans tell you is what they think you want to hear. Often times what you see is filtered through the eyes of a foreigner. I can say one thing, though. It would be very difficult for a westerner to live the life of a Cuban and vica versa. With each visit, I learn more, yet know less.

[Blueface]

Love when someone who wasn't there tries to explain an accident to an eye witness.
Not you Kelly, the writer.
Other than that,
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s167/cmach_photo/hear-no-evil.jpg

What Fidel thought about the article when told in advance.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s167/cmach_photo/castrowink.jpg

Fidel after he heard it was in print and had forgotten to tell them something else to include.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s167/cmach_photo/fidelmuerto3.jpg

[Blueface]

Here is someone in the news recently whose perspective is probably more accurate.
She is a famous blogger out of Cuba not being permitted to leave to receive a prize in NY for her work against the Communist regime.
She runs ramped throughout Cuba looking for places to log on via use of a thumb drive to post her blog.
They don't allow her to openly do it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8306557.stm

This contrasting viewpoint is one that is more accurate as comes from an eyewitness, unlike the writer of the posted one.
Read up on her work. Quite bold and interesting.

Another recent article on her.
http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/other-views/story/1287090.html

and finally, he blog.
http://www.desdecuba.com/generationy/

The name of it is "from Cuba", generation y

[Blueface]

I can say one thing, though. It would be very difficult for a westerner to live the life of a Cuban and vica versa. With each visit, I learn more, yet know less.

:confused:
Do the millions of Cubans here in the US know this, the visa versa part that is?
I guess the ones that died trying to swim over didn't know this either.
How the heck did my family and I conform and grow use to it? Gotta go back and look at that one a bit closer.:rolleyes:

With that, I think I contributed enough and don't want to be the cause of wrong direction in any way.
Just hard to be told you have a green car yet every day when you go outside and clean it, it is white as a ghost, yet you should think it is green.

One of her (Yoani) quotes is so powerful:
Today could have been a day like any other… I regret not being able to say so. It is my son, Jimmy’s, 11th birthday. It has been six years of forced absence imposed by hatred and evil, incapable of understanding that not all men think alike. That has been my punishment, for the government to separate me from my son, by imprisoning me.
I bet she could get use to being here, free, with her son very, very easily.

[skidMarx]

I make $8 a month! Fidel!

[the nub]

:confused:
Do the millions of Cubans here in the US know this, the visa versa part that is?
I guess the ones that died trying to swim over didn't know this either.
How the heck did my family and I conform and grow use to it? Gotta go back and look at that one a bit closer.:rolleyes:

With that, I think I contributed enough and don't want to be the cause of wrong direction in any way.
Just hard to be told you have a green car yet every day when you go outside and clean it, it is white as a ghost, yet you should think it is green.



I didn't say it was impossible, only difficult. I can tell only from my experiences from talking with Cubans and from conversations that my friends have had. For example, the idea of credit is absolutely foreign for most of them. They think that all tourists are millionaires since we can buy a 200CUC box of cigars. Those that are willing to take the risk to leave have a different mindset and are willing to do whatever it takes to live their dream. BUT the vast majority that I've encountered, while happy in general, have no clue about western society. Not that they are stupid or unresourceful, just that the norm here does not exist in Cuba.

[markem]

The article that Poker linked (thanks, Kelly!) attempts to paint a specific picture of Cuba in about 2000. It may or may not be accurate (suspect some of both). My read is that it is a "sway piece" written for a specific aim and audience, although the writer isn't quite up front about it. Lots of ways to read it, so lots of possible aims and/or audiences.

That all said, accurate information on the state of the Cuban economy, conditions for the average citizen, etc. is available. Lots of first hand reporting by the countries (nearly every one besides that US) that have relations with Cuba. The Canadian press has been pretty good about balanced reports, or so it seems to me.

My question would be this: are there any countries similar to Cuba (in terms of political structure, state of the citizens, etc.) with whom the US has relations or is in the process of seriously pursuing relations? I think that the answer is 'yes' and that begs a second question: why are normal relations with Cuba not an active part of US policy? Why is Cuba being treated differently?

Normalizing relations with China in the 70s could be seen as the driving force behind the modernization of China and the growth of the democracy movement there. Could the same happen with Cuba?

The one thing that I will toss out there is that if there was unrestricted travel to Cuba from the US, the amount of money flowing into the economy and the substantial contact between the peoples of the two countries would eventually have an impact on both countries. I would hope that the impact would be beneficial for the average Cuban citizen.

[Blueface]

The article that Poker linked (thanks, Kelly!) attempts to paint a specific picture of Cuba in about 2000. It may or may not be accurate (suspect some of both). My read is that it is a "sway piece" written for a specific aim and audience, although the writer isn't quite up front about it. Lots of ways to read it, so lots of possible aims and/or audiences.

That all said, accurate information on the state of the Cuban economy, conditions for the average citizen, etc. is available. Lots of first hand reporting by the countries (nearly every one besides that US) that have relations with Cuba. The Canadian press has been pretty good about balanced reports, or so it seems to me.

My question would be this: are there any countries similar to Cuba (in terms of political structure, state of the citizens, etc.) with whom the US has relations or is in the process of seriously pursuing relations? I think that the answer is 'yes' and that begs a second question: why are normal relations with Cuba not an active part of US policy? Why is Cuba being treated differently?

Normalizing relations with China in the 70s could be seen as the driving force behind the modernization of China and the growth of the democracy movement there. Could the same happen with Cuba?

The one thing that I will toss out there is that if there was unrestricted travel to Cuba from the US, the amount of money flowing into the economy and the substantial contact between the peoples of the two countries would eventually have an impact on both countries. I would hope that the impact would be beneficial for the average Cuban citizen.

Here is your answer Mark assuming we believe what the article states.
4. The embargo causes intense suffering and many deaths. Wrong! In fact, almost no other country observes the embargo. Certainly, it causes problems, because America should be a closer and cheaper source of many things Cuba, which is an island of limited resources, regularly buys. But Mexico is just as close. Venezuela, a major oil producer, is now very friendly. Cuba makes most of its own medicines; I ask in every pharmacy I pass and they always tell me they fill virtually all prescriptions; and when I went to the Ministry of Health and asked for a list of actually critical medical needs, I got a very short list. Most importantly, the absence of any general suffering in Cuba is dramatically visible to the naked eye.

I love it.
I have to tell all my family and friends to stop sending all the medications they do. There is ample down there and we are getting bad information. Our relatives have been lying to us when they tell us they don't have novane for teeth extraction.

[T.G]

I only just skimmed the article, but the further down the page I went, the more and more I was convinced that the author is wearing one of the darkest sets of rose colored glasses ever made.

The closest B&M to me (Cardenas Cigars in Sacramento) happens to be owned by Cubans. While they will speak some light(hearted) stories of Cuba, like of their jobs in the cigar factories, and little tidbits here and there, for the most part, they don't like to talk seriously about Cuba and neither do any of the many other Cubans that come in there. Some got out legally, some snuck out, but every single one of them risked their lives to leave, and there's really only two logical reasons why anyone would be willing to do that. I have enough respect for them to know not to ask about Cuba, but when they speak of it, either by their own decision to tell a story or someone else asking them, I will listen. Their stories are hardly ever complimentary.

[Blueface]

I have enough respect for them to know not to ask about Cuba, but when they speak of it, either by their own decision to tell a story or someone else asking them, I will listen.

Thank you on their behalf and mine. That is all we can ask for.

[Blueface]

For example, the idea of credit is absolutely foreign for most of them.

:r
I could also address the rest of the misconceptions you perceive but this one caught my eye most.

From the Spanish dictionary, the same one we use to learn the language in Cuba:

Crédito
masculine noun
1. loan (préstamo)
(comprar algo) a crédito -> (to buy something) on credit
crédito bancario -> bank loan
crédito blando -> soft loan
crédito al consumo -> consumer credit
crédito a la exportación -> export credit
crédito hipotecario -> mortgage (loan)
crédito oficial -> official credit
crédito personal -> personal loan
2. credit (plazo de préstamo)
3. trust, belief (confianza)
digno de crédito -> trustworthy
dar crédito a algo -> to believe something
¡no doy crédito a mis oídos! -> I can't believe my ears!
4. standing, reputation (fama)
5. credit (en universidad)
6. (Cine)
títulos de crédito -> credits

Certainly they must know the concept if found in the Spanish dictionary.:r
They use it regularly along with their bartering. Many barter on "credit" and pay up their end of the deal when their care package from Cubans in the US arrives or when they are able to. They just don't have a platinum visa like you and I but as we well know with the Americans in debt with credit cards, not a hard concept to quickly learn.:D
As they do in mythbusters, hopefully this one has now been busted.

[kaisersozei]

Yes it was an interesting read.

So is the footnote on this guy's webpage:

*World: could mean several things, including planet, but the planet isn't apparently nearing its end. Here, world means a construct of substances and conditions (stuff and circumstance) draped over the planet, extending a little below and a little above the surface, like a slightly inflated baggy, without which the thin surface smear of living vegetable and animal scum called life on earth cannot survive. This construct (the scum bag, or eco-system) is not flimsy and can even self adjust considerably, so the fate of this or that individual species may not be critical at all, but the over-all construct is more vulnerable than the planet it clings to, its viability as a life host does ultimately depend on its proportionate make-up as a construct, and with one cancerous ingredient (the human race and the human encampment, including all its side effects) already way overgrown and still growing wildly out of proportion, it - the world - is very obviously crashing. It's not going to stop crashing without draconian measures being taken - which aren't being taken - and won't be taken - and probably should have been taken long ago. And since all of humanity is in total denial about this - deaf, blind, speechless, and immobile - it's a done deal.

:confused: Smoke another doobie, dude.

[the nub]

Certainly they must know the concept if found in the Spanish dictionary.:r
They use it regularly along with their bartering. Many barter on "credit" and pay up their end of the deal when their care package from Cubans in the US arrives or when they are able to. They just don't have a platinum visa like you and I but as we well know with the Americans in debt with credit cards, not a hard concept to quickly learn.:D
As they do in mythbusters, hopefully this one has now been busted.

You can spin it any way you want.

[alley00p]

Since I've never been to the ISOM, I don't have any personal facts that I can share. I know that quite a few of our Canadian BOTLs have traveled to Cuba and I'm sure that they could shed some light on the conditions they have seen, while visiting.

I've read a lot about Cuba, but I've never seen the island described in the glowing terms that the blogger put in their "report". I have to take that so called factual report, with a grain of salt.

I found the various comments, while reading this thread very interesting.

Thanks for the original post!

:dance:

[macpappy]

The mayor of New Orleans is scheduled to go on a trade mission to Cuba. Maybe he will find it to his liking and stay.

Seriously though, about 8 years ago someone I know was part of a government sanctioned visit to Havana. He said that what they were shown was a Cuba that was a lot better off than what most believe. He also said that they weren't allowed to go off on their own or talk to anyone without their "tour guide" on hand. Basically they were only allowed to see and hear what the Cuban government wanted them to see and hear.

[Blueface]

You can spin it any way you want.

Please explain to me what you mean by this.
You said something illogical by saying in a very authoritative and misleading manner, based on you having been there, that Cubans have no idea of the concept of credit.
I disproved you.
How am I spinning anything?
If what you meant is they have no concept of the use of a credit card, would likely agree with you. However, that is not what you said.
Here are your words again:
For example, the idea of credit is absolutely foreign for most of them

For you to say I can spin it any way I want is very hard for me to not find that comment resentful and that is why this topic sucks a big one each and every time it arises and each and every time someone with little knowledge of our plight, experiences, tribulations, tries to tell a Cuban what is and what isn't about what they live each day.
So many foolishly seem so good at explaining accidents to eye witnesses and yet don't seem to listen to or believe what the real witness says.
You or anyone else on this planet don't want to accept what this Cuban and many others tell you about the truth, fine! Don't. Your choice.
I can't change anyone's mind. I can't ask you accept what I have to say. I can only offer my viewpoint to counter what I see as erroneous ones.
I just ask you be courteous enough to me as a CA member and as a Cuban exile to not call it "My Spin".

[ahc4353]

Maybe I will ask Alina to post in this thread about her experiences of what eight year old girl and her parents went through to leave the country legally.

Or maybe not, what would be the point? Those that know the truth, know the truth.

[Blueface]

Maybe I will ask Alina to post in this thread about her experiences of what eight year old girl and her parents went through to leave the country legally.

Or maybe not, what would be the point? Those that know the truth, know the truth.

Al,
It just seems an endless battle, never to be won.
I ask myself each and every time, why do I do it? Why do I bite? Simple answer. I can't see not sharing the truth and clearing up misconceptions. Even if one doesn't believe me, hopefully one at least hears me.
I feel an obligation to the Cuban people and to my relatives to do so.
There are quite a few Cubans on this board that feel as I do on this subject. They are just a heck of a lot smarter than I am and manage to stay away. I would think Alina would be smarter to just stay away and let the world tell us what we crapped out of our assess last night. They are in a much better position to dissect our crap I guess.

[the nub]

Please explain to me what you mean by this.
You said something illogical by saying in a very authoritative and misleading manner, based on you having been there, that Cubans have no idea of the concept of credit.
I disproved you.
How am I spinning anything?
If what you meant is they have no concept of the use of a credit card, would likely agree with you. However, that is not what you said.
Here are your words again:
For example, the idea of credit is absolutely foreign for most of them

For you to say I can spin it any way I want is very hard for me to not find that comment resentful and that is why this topic sucks a big one each and every time it arises and each and every time someone with little knowledge of our plight, experiences, tribulations, tries to tell a Cuban what is and what isn't about what they live each day.
So many foolishly seem so good at explaining accidents to eye witnesses and yet don't seem to listen to or believe what the real witness says.
You or anyone else on this planet don't want to accept what this Cuban and many others tell you about the truth, fine! Don't. Your choice.
I can't change anyone's mind. I can't ask you accept what I have to say. I can only offer my viewpoint to counter what I see as erroneous ones.
I just ask you be courteous enough to me as a CA member and as a Cuban exile to not call it "My Spin".


I will consider being polite when you stop telling me what I did or did not witness and experience on my many trips to Havana. Essentially you are saying the experiences and conversations that I have had did not exist. You seem to think that I'm some sort of Castro sympathizer who holidays in Varadero. How did you disprove me? How do you know who I've talked to? How do you know where I've stayed? Did I say ALL or EVERY in any of my OPINIONS? You say what you say as fact. How can it be fact if there is more than one side?!??!?! I go to Havana to see, learn and experience- without bias mind you. I have no political agenda. My great grandfather was shipped to Cuba in the late 1800's. Chinese laborers were treated worse than the slaves. Of course you knew that. Or maybe you will say that didn't happen. Obviously you know everything and everyone MUST agree with you or else he is wrong. I believe you are the one being resentful.

[Blueface]

I will consider being polite when you stop telling me what I did or did not witness and experience on my many trips to Havana. Essentially you are saying the experiences and conversations that I have had did not exist. You seem to think that I'm some sort of Castro sympathizer who holidays in Varadero. How did you disprove me? How do you know who I've talked to? How do you know where I've stayed? Did I say ALL or EVERY in any of my OPINIONS? You say what you say as fact. How can it be fact if there is more than one side?!??!?! I go to Havana to see, learn and experience- without bias mind you. I have no political agenda. My great grandfather was shipped to Cuba in the late 1800's. Chinese laborers were treated worse than the slaves. Of course you knew that. Or maybe you will say that didn't happen. Obviously you know everything and everyone MUST agree with you or else he is wrong. I believe you are the one being resentful.

You my friend don't deserve the decency of a response beyond this.
You have done nothing but make suppositions here and you have admitted your intent to be inciteful.
I will hold back my words for you that I truly feel.
You are a new member to my ignore list. A very elite list indeed consisting of two plus you.
Have a good life.

[M1903A1]

Seriously though, about 8 years ago someone I know was part of a government sanctioned visit to Havana. He said that what they were shown was a Cuba that was a lot better off than what most believe. He also said that they weren't allowed to go off on their own or talk to anyone without their "tour guide" on hand. Basically they were only allowed to see and hear what the Cuban government wanted them to see and hear.

Several years ago a number of friends of mine (all American) were able to go on an educational trip to Cuba to "fantrip" the old Hershey Cuban interurban line. A couple of them shot video of the trip, most of which was outside of the tourist areas. While everybody else was watching the train, I was looking at the surroundings, most of which looked downright fourth-world. I found it very sad to watch.

[wrench turner 85]

This paper is not worth wipping my a$$ with. granted that if the people are "happy" in cuba then why put this propaganda out, just leave it alone, this is not ponted at anybody in CA for the recored. people are going to beleave what they wont.

[ahc4353]

You my friend don't deserve the decency of a response beyond this.
You have done nothing but make suppositions here and you have admitted your intent to be inciteful.
I will hold back my words for you that I truly feel.
You are a new member to my ignore list. A very elite list indeed consisting of two plus you.
Have a good life.


You have PNOON and Icehog on ignore!? :ss

[the nub]

You my friend don't deserve the decency of a response beyond this.
You have done nothing but make suppositions here and you have admitted your intent to be inciteful.
I will hold back my words for you that I truly feel.
You are a new member to my ignore list. A very elite list indeed consisting of two plus you.
Have a good life.


Get over yourself. Intent to be inciteful?

I think you should re-read your analogy about the green/white car. YOU are the one telling me that my car is green.

[Col. Kurtz]

A few photos from Havana for your enjoyment! (May 14 and others). I don't think I can comment without getting this closed down. :D

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc267/jdubx2/protestors12-1.jpg


http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc267/jdubx2/Propaganda61-1.jpg



http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc267/jdubx2/Propaganda40.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc267/jdubx2/BushNazi1.jpg

[md4958]

Maybe I will ask Alina to post in this thread about her experiences of what eight year old girl and her parents went through to leave the country legally.

Or maybe not, what would be the point? Those that know the truth, know the truth.

dont worry fellas, Alina is WAYYYYYY more interesting than Al. Younger and hotter too! :D

[Blueface]

You have PNOON and Icehog on ignore!? :ss

No way Tom as he is way too big to mess with.
Peter is quite far from me and can't get me that easily so yeah, he is one.
The other is James (Croatan) for being such a fan of Guantanamera cigars.
(You two know I am kidding - you were on my ignore but just took you off):r

Gotta try that "ignore" thing more often.
Sure cuts down the the size of the page and amount of stuff to read.:D

[wrench turner 85]

hey col. K, mabey its me but GWB looks like a pr*n star from the 70's with a mustash. :r

[icehog3]

.

Did somebody say something?

[Col. Kurtz]

hey col. K, mabey its me but GWB looks like a pr*n star from the 70's with a mustash. :r


:r:r

"My name is George and I'm here to check your plumbing. Now where is that dishwasher...."

:r

[Blueface]

Update:

Freedom of Speech is in fact alive and well in Cuba.
You are free to speak and then be beaten.
Here is Yoani's latest experience.
http://www.miamiherald.com/581/story/1321125.html

Please note the prize Yoani won and is not allowed to go receive is NOT in the US. It is in Spain, a country Cuba has relations with.
Cuban blogger Yoani Sanchez, speaks during a interview with AFP in Havana, on May 6, 2008. Sanchez won the Ortega y Gasset prize in Spain for digital journalism for her critical Internet blog on Cuban reality. Cuban authorities have refused to give a travel visa to Sanchez so she can receive one of Spain's top journalism awards in Madrid on Wednesday, said Spanish newspaper El Pais which hands out the awards annually.

[CBI_2]

Here is another site I found a a little while ago that I think is very informative.
http://www.therealcuba.com/index.htm

[VirtualSmitty]

Here is another site I found a a little while ago that I think is very informative.
http://www.therealcuba.com/index.htm

I did not know the Cuban Guayabera was the perfect gift. i knew it was elegant and easily distinguishable by the fine cut but the fact that it's made entirely of Irish linen makes me wonder what exactly makes it a Cuban Guayabera. Or is the ultimate Guayabera a fusion of Cuban and Irish culture? :hm

[NCRadioMan]

I did not know the Cuban Guayabera was the perfect gift. i knew it was elegant and easily distinguishable by the fine cut but the fact that it's made entirely of Irish linen makes me wonder what exactly makes it a Cuban Guayabera. Or is the ultimate Guayabera a fusion of Cuban and Irish culture? :hm

That, my friend, is the question that haunts me.

[csbrewfisher]

Here's (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N11371755.htm) an interesting perspective on Cuba.