Freezing

[gettysburgfreak]

With my first box purchasing arriving in the next week, I thought this would be a good time to discuss the freezing of cigars. The freezing of cigars is designed to eliminate those pesky tobacco beetles which can decimate entire cigar collections. Since I have only done this once, I would like those with more experience to comment. What I did was put my cigars in two zip lock bags, make sure most of the air was out and put in the freezer for three days. I then took out the cigars, let them sit out at room temperature for a few hours and then put back into my humidor.

[ElkTwin]

Wise choice.

Freezing is like insurance. You hope you never need it, but you shouldn't be without it.

[mrreindeer]

I would never freeze my cigars, ever. Just my :2

[dunng]

1 Day in the Fridge
3 Days in the Freezer
1 Day in the Fridge
2 Days in Humi (Still Sealed)
Open in Humi...

:ss

[BroncoHorvath]

1 Day in the Fridge
3 Days in the Freezer
1 Day in the Fridge
2 Days in Humi (Still Sealed)
Open in Humi...

:ss

That's exactly what I do, and I've never had issues...since 1996:tu

[jechelman]

I would never freeze my cigars, ever. Just my :2

To each his own but here is what can happen if you don't freeze.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g212/jechelman/beetles2.jpg

[dunng]

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q235/dunng/buggy_pams.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q235/dunng/ryj_beetles.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q235/dunng/ryjs_beetle_ravaged.jpg

All credit goes to Moki for the pics... :ss

[white_s2k]

I hate seeing those pics!

I have decided not to freeze my cigars, since im constantly looking through my humidor.

[duckmanco]

I don't freeze either, but after seeing those pics, I have no one to blame but myself if that ever happens to me. Yikes.

[groogs]

1 Day in the Fridge
3 Days in the Freezer
1 Day in the Fridge
2 Days in Humi (Still Sealed)
Open in Humi...

:ss

That is the way I do it, better safe then sorry.

[MTB996]

I do not freeze my stash, but I found this in my non-Vino desktop humidor a few weeks back.

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa68/mtb996/beetles3.jpg

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa68/mtb996/beetles2.jpg

I keep my boxes in the vinotemp at 68F, so my real risk is just my desktops with singles.

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

those padrons.......... are.... i dont even want to go there. that must have been a sad day.

[md4958]

do you guys freeze all your sticks, or just CCs?

[Nimbus]

I try to freeze some cigars when I have the time, but never get around to most of my stash:hn. If you keep the cigars at a relative safe 65% humidity and 65 degrees, you should be fine. Although, some members like their gars a little bit dryer 60% humidity and 60 degrees. To each his own; depending upon your preference. :ss

[dunng]

do you guys freeze all your sticks, or just CCs?

I freeze everything that is going into my main cabinet humidor... :ss

[dentonparrots]

OMG, those pictures look like a warzone! I've never really thought about it but I'll definitely be doing it in the future.

[ElkTwin]

do you guys freeze all your sticks, or just CCs?
Every darned one.

[troutbreath]

I do not freeze my stash, but I found this in my non-Vino desktop humidor a few weeks back.

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa68/mtb996/beetles3.jpg

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa68/mtb996/beetles2.jpg

I keep my boxes in the vinotemp at 68F, so my real risk is just my desktops with singles.



What kind of stick is that (if you can say)? Never seen a real live beetle.

[Boomer]

Send them to me. I will put them on the back porch for a couple of nights. 26 degrees tonight and 22 tomorrow night. It's spitting snow as I write this. Looks like a B&M visit is in the near future.;)

[Raralith]

As far as I know, all commercial companies freeze their cigars before distribution. That information was on the CS forums, but I have no idea if this is done or is still done.

As for as freezing, I did it once, and while a lot of people say you don't lose any flavor, I felt it did. While they were not bad, they tasted a bit more bland. I did the same thing as dunng posted, but I put at our factory plant which has an industrial freezer that goes down to -40 F.

[Don Fernando]

do you guys freeze all your sticks, or just CCs?

Beetles are not exclusive to Cuba.

[ElkTwin]

Beetles are not exclusive to Cuba.
Beetles are not exclusive to tobacco. :D

[Starscream]

Freeze everything you get from online vendors. I do not freeze sticks that I recieve from other BOTLs here.

[DavenportESQ]

I personally do not freeze. I have a vino to keep the temp down. I think you should be safe ok especially since we are heading into some colder monthes.

[acruce]

1 Day in the Fridge
3 Days in the Freezer
1 Day in the Fridge
2 Days in Humi (Still Sealed)
Open in Humi...

:ss

what if you don't have room in humi to leave sealed?? will it hurt to just open and put them in the humi?

[totallytentative]

Wow, that beetle looks amazingly a lot like these little beetles that my parents had a problem with proliferating in their cereals. They were very persistent and would do crazy things like chew neat little holes right through aluminized plastic pouches! Similar to the cigar treatment, freezing does kill them (they threw out the infested food though).


Not to hijack this thread, but I've been having a persistent problem with what I don't think are beetles... unless they are *extremely* young beetles, and it's related to the topic of freezing. I have a little box of Davidoff cigarillos that I noticed had very tiny white bugs crawling in it one day. Not very many, just a few in one corner over a couple of the sticks. This followed a problem I had with over-humidifying them temporarily. I froze the box for almost a week, and now a few weeks later I find them again.

Both times I checked to see if they had spread outside that box to anywhere else, and they hadn't. For lack of a better idea I put the box back in the freezer a few days ago, where it is right now.

I might do a few freeze/thaw cycles and see if that kills them, but does anyone know what these critters are and how to kill them? They are almost microscopic in size, like little white/cream coloured grains of fine sand or salt that move. I can't even make out what shape they are, they're so small, and I haven't seen any larger ones or even holes in the cigars. :confused:

Does wiping it down with alcohol (like cheap vodka) kill insect eggs?

[ashmaster]

After having an outbreak of those dreaded little creatures that took out some nice sticks a couple years ago, I freeze all of my smokes. Knock on wood, haven't had an outbreak since.

[Don Fernando]

I can put all the cigars on my balcony now to freeze them, brrrrrr, it's cold outside.

[Cigary]

I personally will not freeze my cigars unless I receive an order from a retailor I have not done business with before ( haven't done that in years ) and for the most part I do my business with about 4 different places and all very reputable and never had a problem. I do buy cigars when the wife and I travel but I will smoke them before the week is done so if there are beetles or larvae inside of them they go up in smoke.

Having seen some of the pics and the devastation makes my head spin. I did have this problem about 7 years ago when I bought cigars outside of the USA and brought them home and put them into my humi,,,and lo and behold I started seeing the holes in my cigars. Total panic because I had some great sticks,,,was able to save them but I never wanted to go thru that experience again.

[dunng]

what if you don't have room in humi to leave sealed?? will it hurt to just open and put them in the humi?

I've done that as well in the past, you should be good... :ss

[MikeyC]

I've frozen cigars in the past and didn't feel that I lost any flavor. I know I should probably freeze everything that comes in for safety's sake, but I almost never do unless I see a beetle hole in one of the cigars.

[RGD.]

Just a few notes for thought -

Freezing cigars is just insurance - sometimes you need it, sometimes you don't.

The actual time in the freezer depends on how cold your freezer actual gets. So just sticking them in a freezer for three days does not guarantee anything. You might need 7 days or you might only need 2.

The time in the refrigerator: it's a leaf - once it's cold it's cold - being in the frig for 24 hours does not make it any colder than after 6. In addition - what exactly is the purpose? To slowly bring the temp down? It's not like they are going to flash freeze once placed in the freezer.

Just because you froze your cigars does not mean you won't get beetles in those same smokes - they are certainly susceptible to infestation again, just not from eggs laid in them.

You don't want your cigars frozen? Too bad and too late. Even money says they were already frozen either at the factory or in storage. Sorry.

You don't want to freeze because you can taste a difference? Hold on - have to stop laughing so I can finish typing. Okay - I will send three cigars to anyone and dare that person to tell me which ones were frozen. I have done this before and no one could tell with certainty. In addition - see the note before this one - so yeah, too late.

And while I'm thinking about it - two zip lock bags? Why? Nothing is trying to get in nor out. Your enemy during freezing is the air-moisture condensation. And you can't get all the air out using a zip lock bag anyway. Best deal is to use a food sealer to suck out as much air as possible without crushing them. Do you think when they are frozen at the factory or storage facility that they double bag them?

Don't freeze cigars that you got from someone you know - or your local B&M? Really - those people and/or business don't have any more of a clue than you do if those smokes have beetles in them. Basing what to freeze and what not to freeze on "trusted" sources is bad practice. You either freeze everything or you don't. Half and half and then placing the smokes in the same humidor is just a waste of time. Again - previously frozen cigars can and will become lunch for beetles - they don't care cause they can't taste the difference.


Anyway - In over 40 years of smoking I have never had any beetles. Do I freeze? Use to. Use to freeze every single thing. Don't anymore as I have a freezer that I added a Johnson Controller on - and that's my humidor. Can keep it as cold as I like - normally set at 60 degrees.

So - just some food for thought -


Ron

[Coz77]

:tpd:....I like Ron

[Cigarcop]

:tpd:....I like Ron

I just wish he would say whats on his mind!!!

[mash]

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q235/dunng/buggy_pams.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q235/dunng/ryj_beetles.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q235/dunng/ryjs_beetle_ravaged.jpg

All credit goes to Moki for the pics... :ss

That middle picture, that's ganja right? That must make the beetles even hungrier.
I'm with the group that don't freeze, did it once with half my sticks and they tasted flat, never came back.

[md4958]

from this website: http://www.cubancigarwebsite.com/6-manufacturing.htm#Factories

Freezing

In addition to fumigation, freezing of the finished cigars is used to kill the tobacco beetle Lasioderma serricorne.

Freezing of cigars commenced around early 2005. It is carried out in the Habanos main temperature and humidity controlled storage and distribution building. This, combined with fumigation, is intended to kill all eggs, insects, and lava within the tobacco.

Some regional distributors had their own freezing facilities, predating the Habanos plant.

so it can be pretty much guaranteed that boxcodes after 2005 have been frozen

[wayner123]

You don't want to freeze because you can taste a difference? Hold on - have to stop laughing so I can finish typing. Okay - I will send three cigars to anyone and dare that person to tell me which ones were frozen. I have done this before and no one could tell with certainty. In addition - see the note before this one - so yeah, too late.



I respect your opinions and experience greatly. However, I know of a good number of PSHC members that may disagree with you on the above.

[Drazzil]

RGD: One real quick point. As you said the chances are that the cigar, or the tobacco has been frozen at least once in its journey to your humidor The greater likelyhood is that it has been frozen perhaps multiple times...

Now here comes the sticky point. If the tobacco has been frozen, wouldn't the water crystals forming in the tobacco do something to displace the oils and change the balance of the taste of the tobacco? Water and oil don't mix, and I am guessing that freezing probabally does change the taste of tobacco to some extent, but that we will probabally never know. My line of reasoning is below.

It would be well nigh impossible to prove or disprove your point that the taste of a cigar changes when it's frozen, as ALL tobacco has been frozen a number of times... I would guess the tobacco farmers, cigar factory, distributor and wholesaler would all want to protect their intrests

This then leads to the conclusion that it would indeed take a developed palate to tell the difference between the fifth and sixth freezings and thereby unless you roll a cigar fresh off the fields, you will never be able to tell the difference between fresh tobacco and frozen, because it's all been frozen.

I dunno, if anyone can spot a hole in my logic, they are free to correct me.

[RGD.]

I respect your opinions and experience greatly. However, I know of a good number of PSHC members that may disagree with you on the above.


It's good to disagree and have varying opinions - be a boring world with out.

This subject comes up frequently and has done so for years. Several years ago I gave four friends three cigars each who stated without a doubt they could pick out the frozen smokes.

I sent person #
1) 3 non-frozen
2) 3 all frozen
3) 2 frozen and 1 non-frozen
4) 1 frozen and 2 non-frozen

Person #
1) said 2 were frozen when none were frozen
2) said 1 was frozen although all were frozen
3) said 1 was frozen and selected a correct one
4) said 1 was frozen and selected a non-frozen one

The cigars were Fuente 8-9-8, readily available damn near anywhere - without the labels. I did not have/smoke Cubans at the time - hence the use of Fuente's.

Soooo - you know, what can I say. Be glad to repeat my non-scientific study.
Of course I'm sure that there are guys out there who can discern 7 year old burnt Madagascar vanilla with a hint of German truffle - I just don't know any of them.

:ss

Ron

[RGD.]

RGD: One real quick point. As you said the chances are that the cigar, or the tobacco has been frozen at least once in its journey to your humidor The greater likelyhood is that it has been frozen perhaps multiple times...

Now here comes the sticky point. If the tobacco has been frozen, wouldn't the water crystals forming in the tobacco do something to displace the oils and change the balance of the taste of the tobacco? Water and oil don't mix, and I am guessing that freezing probabally does change the taste of tobacco to some extent, but that we will probabally never know. My line of reasoning is below.

It would be well nigh impossible to prove or disprove your point that the taste of a cigar changes when it's frozen, as ALL tobacco has been frozen a number of times... I would guess the tobacco farmers, cigar factory, distributor and wholesaler would all want to protect their intrests

This then leads to the conclusion that it would indeed take a developed palate to tell the difference between the fifth and sixth freezings and thereby unless you roll a cigar fresh off the fields, you will never be able to tell the difference between fresh tobacco and frozen, because it's all been frozen.

I dunno, if anyone can spot a hole in my logic, they are free to correct me.


Exactly - :ss

Ron

[gpugliese]

from this website: http://www.cubancigarwebsite.com/6-manufacturing.htm#Factories



so it can be pretty much guaranteed that boxcodes after 2005 have been frozen

Not necessarily, unfortunately. Here's what Rob Ayala (http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=88214&st=0&p=88403&#entry88403) has to say about HSA's freezing process:

They have capacity of 80,000 cigars in the freezing chamber for 24hours at a time. It doesn't cover all cigars produced (do the math). Still, there are distributors who also freeze their cigars (I********* being one). Perhaps they do not freeze cigars going to distributors who freeze cigars. I have tried to find out but have hit a brick wall at this time.

Bottom line is continue to freeze if you do not have a climate controlled environment.

[wayner123]

It's good to disagree and have varying opinions - be a boring world with out.

This subject comes up frequently and has done so for years. Several years ago I gave four friends three cigars each who stated without a doubt they could pick out the frozen smokes.

I sent person #
1) 3 non-frozen
2) 3 all frozen
3) 2 frozen and 1 non-frozen
4) 1 frozen and 2 non-frozen

Person #
1) said 2 were frozen when none were frozen
2) said 1 was frozen although all were frozen
3) said 1 was frozen and selected a correct one
4) said 1 was frozen and selected a non-frozen one

The cigars were Fuente 8-9-8, readily available damn near anywhere - without the labels. I did not have/smoke Cubans at the time - hence the use of Fuente's.

Soooo - you know, what can I say. Be glad to repeat my non-scientific study.
Of course I'm sure that there are guys out there who can discern 7 year old burnt Madagascar vanilla with a hint of German truffle - I just don't know any of them.

:ss

Ron


That sounds like the results I would expect. Were those friends familiar with Fuente 8-9-8 enough to have a baseline to judge? And did they know the cigar in question before the test?

I am not discrediting your testing or anything like that, I truly want to know. :)

[Buena Fortuna]

To freeze or not to freeze...read the facts and decide for yourself.

Microscopic Lasioderma Serricorne (Tobacco Beetle) eggs exist in tobacco and foods alike. While Tobacco Beetles can be found in environments exceeding 65˚F, they typically only hatch and mate in temperature conditions of 68-73˚F, with high humidity > 60%.

Of the four stages the beetle grows in and out of (egg, larva, pupa, adult), the Pupa stage is undoubtedly the most devastating for smokers. Emerging from the egg, approximately six to ten days after the temperature triggers their birth; the larvae live and feed off of your cigars, for roughly five to ten weeks. They prefer to reside in dark or dimly lit cracks, nooks and crevices but become active and fly readily in bright, open areas, probably in an attempt to find refuge. They are most active at dusk and will continue activity through the night. Adults do not feed, but will drink liquids.

The complete life cycle takes 26 days at 98°F and 120 days at 68°F. L. Serricorne do not do well in the cold, adults die within 6 days at 39°F, and eggs survive 5 days at 32-41°F. Larvae become dormant and may hibernate below 60° F. Adults are strong fliers, and are particularly active in subdued light at temperatures above 65° F. Adults will cease all flying activity at 55°F. Temperatures of 1˚F or lower will crack the larvae and kill both eggs and adults. Heating small quantities of infested material in an oven (190°F for one hour, 120°F for 16 to 24 hours) also is effective.

References
• Baur FJ. 1991. Chemical methods to control insect pests of processed foods. pp. 427-440. In J. R. Gorham (ed.), Ecology and Management of Food-Industry Pests. FDA Technical Bulletin 4.
• Buss LJ, Fasulo TR. (2006). Stored Product Pests. UF/IFAS. SW 185. CD-ROM.
• Chuman T, Mochizuki K, Mori M, Kohno M, Kato K, Noguchi M. 1985. Lasioderma chemistry, Sex pheromone of cigarette beetle (Lasioderma serricorne F.). Journal of Chemical Ecology 11: 417-434.
• Granovsky TA. Stored product pests. pp. 635-728. In D. Moreland (ed.), Handbook of Pest Control (by A. Mallis), Eighth Edition. Mallis Handbook and Technical Training Co.
• Fasulo TR. (2002). German Cockroach and Stored Product Pests. Bug Tutorials. University of Florida/IFAS. CD-ROM. SW 165.
• Fasulo TR, Kern W, Koehler PG, Short DE. (2005). Pests In and Around the Home. Version 2.0. University of Florida/IFAS. CD-ROM. SW 126.
• Hill DS. 1990. Pests of stored products and their control. CRC Press, Boca Raton. 274 pp.
• Howe RW. 1957. A laboratory study of the cigarette beetle, Lasioderma serricorne (F.)(Col., Anobiidae) with a critical review of the literature on its biology. Bulletin of Entomological Research 48: 9-56.
• Krischik V, Burkholder W. 1995. Stored-product insects and biological control agents. pp. 85-102. In Krischik, V., G. Cuperus, and D. Galiart (eds.) Stored product management. Oklahoma Cooperative Extension Service Circular Number E-912.
• Phillips TW. 1994. Pheromones of stored-product insects: current status and future perspectives. pp. 479-486. In E. Highley, E. J. Wright, H. J. Banks and B. R. Champ (eds.), Proceedings of the 6th International Working Conference on Stored-product Protection, Vol. 1. CAB International, Wallingford, U.K.
• Phillips TW, Berberet RC, Cuperus GW. 2000. Postharvest integrated pest management, pp. 2690-2701. In F. J. Francis (ed.), The Wiley Encyclopedia of Food Science Technology, 2nd Edition. John Wiley and Sons, New York.
• Phillips TW, Cogan PM, Fadamiro HY. 2000. Pheromones, pp. 273-302. In B. Subramanyam & D. W. Hagstrum (eds.), Alternatives to pesticides in stored-product IPM. Kluwer Academic Publishers, Boston.
• United States Department of Agriculture. 1980. Stored-grain insects. USDA-ARS Agriculture Handbook Number 500, 57 pp.

[RGD.]

That sounds like the results I would expect. Were those friends familiar with Fuente 8-9-8 enough to have a baseline to judge? And did they know the cigar in question before the test?

I am not discrediting your testing or anything like that, I truly want to know. :)


No they did not know exactly what cigar they were smoking as I removed the bands - but since it was a popular cigar with my group they were not un-familiar with them. I don't know if it would have mattered or not - guess if they had known which one it was they could have gotten more to compare to. On the other hand I guess my view is that if someone says they can tell a frozen cigar verse a non one - really shouldn't matter.

A yes it may not have been entirely on the up and up to send three non-frozen and three all frozen samples - but it sure was fun to see the results - :ss

Honestly I really believe it's the knowledge of knowing that they were frozen that taints the perspective of it all.


Ron

[karmaz00]

well i woulsnt usually freeze them, but i do have a special desktop for my new arrivals, to keep a close eye on....but living in the cold country not much to worry about